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Why Is Bernie Sanders Against Reparations?

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andthebeatgoeson

Junior Member
Because while being a nice thought, actually implementing reparations would be impossible to implement. Who would eligible for this money? How much would they get? How would it be paid for? How is eligibility determined? What happens if someone can't prove their ancestry?
Let's start with the Tulsa riots and victims of redlining.

It's a good thought experiment to find the one issue that goes too far for either Sanders or his supporters. Not his single payer plan, not being a socialist. And he can't even speak about it. It's divisive. Not his move on BLM. That was divisive. But reparations are so divisive, he has no interest.

At some point, I'm supposed to feel that he's different than all the rest.
 

KingV

Member
Let's start with the Tulsa riots and victims of redlining.

It's a good thought experiment to find the one issue that goes too far for either Sanders or his supporters. Not his single payer plan, not being a socialist. And he can't even speak about it. It's divisive. Not his move on BLM. That was divisive. But reparations are so divisive, he has no interest.

At some point, I'm supposed to feel that he's different than all the rest.

"Give me money solely because of my skin color" is an extreme position. It is exceedingly divisive.

I think if its framed as compensating victims of X, Y, and Z by doing X, it becomes much less divisive. Do people that are unjustly imprisoned, or victims of police violence deserve compensation? Absolutely. They don't deserve compensation because of their skin color, but because they were wronged.

Saying "do this for black folks, because they are black" will be intolerable to many people. An approach that is probably not going to split natural allies from your cause is to propose programs that disproportionately help black people because of geographical or socio-political realities. Programs that help the poor, provide assistance to the unbanked, people in distressed neighborhoods, or people in dire straits because of incarcerated family members will de facto help black families more than white ones. Let's face it, the Nigerian dude I work with that just graduated with a Stern MBA probably doesn't need reparations to go with his 6 figure income.

For better or worse, I think Bernie sees this (or at least the solutions) as primarily a class problem. I think he is sort of correct, but doesnt fully understand the emotional part of the argument.

That sais, I'm also not sure why Bernie bears the brunt of this, as there is no current candidate in either party that supports reparations. Hillary will talk s big game, but that's all Hillary has is talk. At the end of the day, Bernie is the candidate that's going to work the hardest to introduce programs that help poor and workig class Americans of all colors, whether you call it reparations or the "poverty prevention act".
 

krazen

Member
Saying "do this for black folks, because they are black" will be intolerable to many people. An approach that is probably not going to split natural allies from your cause is to propose programs that disproportionately help black people because of geographical or socio-political realities. Programs that help the poor, provide assistance to the unbanked, people in distressed neighborhoods, or people in dire straits because of incarcerated family members will de facto help black families more than white ones. Let's face it, the Nigerian dude I work with that just graduated with a Stern MBA probably doesn't need reparations to go with his 6 figure income.

But the more I think about it, the acknowledgement of America's deep racism is what makes reparations important in name even though, as you said, it won't fly (mainly because people are selfish and short sighted).

Giving the groups fucked by institutional racism under the guise of racism helps, but it doesnt solve issues like the willful ignorance of police brutality(how BLM is a punchline) or the growing belief that white people are the real suffering minority, lol
 

KingV

Member
But the more I think about it, the acknowledgement of America's deep racism is what makes reparations important in name even though, as you said, it won't fly (mainly because people are selfish and short sighted).

Giving the groups fucked by institutional racism under the guise of racism helps, but it doesnt solve issues like the willful ignorance of police brutality(how BLM is a punchline) or the growing belief that white people are the real suffering minority, lol

I think the idea that it NEEDS to be called reparations is, in my humble opinion, ugly and confrontational. It reflects a need by some people to have a "Win" over white people. Nothing will get better from a position that starts with 'fuck you white people'.

This is why BLM is not particularly effective at gaining sympathy from white people. I can agree with them on the issues, but if someone is going to call me a racist just for existing, then I'm somewhat less sympathetic. Stories like Trayvon Martin, Freddie Gray, and Michael Brown resonate within members of the white community is that it humanizes the victims of police brutality. Yes, change had largely not happened, but people are talking about it, which is a start.

My point is it can't ONLY be about confrontation, or winning against white power. Certainly there is institutional racism, but very few people are consciously participating in that. In a world where racism is considered a character flaw and an insult, its unproductive to categorize white people, in general, as racists. It's better to illustrate the unfairness of the system in a way that white people can understand.

I went to a majority black high school, have friends who have been in and out of the Justice system, and can see the differences in what its like to be white vs black in America. Especially as I get older and see how my life is different than some of my black classmates, and sort of start to understand why. I know for a fact that if you can illustrate how institutional racism works, many white people will support changing the system. I also know that doing it in an accusatory way may eventually result in some temporary victory, but will cause much deeper longer lasting resentment over the long term.
 
Saying "do this for black folks, because they are black" will be intolerable to many people. An approach that is probably not going to split natural allies from your cause is to propose programs that disproportionately help black people because of geographical or socio-political realities. Programs that help the poor, provide assistance to the unbanked, people in distressed neighborhoods, or people in dire straits because of incarcerated family members will de facto help black families more than white ones. Let's face it, the Nigerian dude I work with that just graduated with a Stern MBA probably doesn't need reparations to go with his 6 figure income.

It's not because they are black. It is because Americans have in the past and present have targetted blacks for egregious mistreatment. We need to stop pretending people that don't understand that are our Allies. They are and have always been the antagonists to the struggle for blacks to be treated equally.

Given the history of every other social program I don't know how people think some general plan is actually gonna disproportionately help blacks.

"I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection." MLK
 

FStubbs

Member
They Japanese did. But the way American Indian reservations are handled is still appalling. So much alcoholism, poverty, poor education, disease, and corruption. The Bureau of Indian Affairs doesn't do enough.


Pay reparations to blacks still living who were 18 or older before the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1968, yes. But to pay reparations to all blacks you'd need to demonstrate systemic injustice within the federal government today. Please enumerate them for me.

Racism is over bub. Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and drink your lead water like a champ.
 

KingV

Member
It's not because they are black. It is because Americans have in the past and present have targetted blacks for egregious mistreatment. We need to stop pretending people that don't understand that are our Allies. They are and have always been the antagonists to the struggle for blacks to be treated equally.

1) I would argue that reparations are really about being treated more than equally. It's a way to settle the score, not 'just be treated like everybody else'.

2) I would argue that very few people are consciously targeting black people for egregious mistreatment. In a way that makes it more insidious.

3) the majority of people (or at least a large portion) don't understand institutional racism, so dismissing them as obstacles means that basically everybody is an obstacle.


My point is that making it clear how institutional racism works to people who arent black is incredibly important to actually achieving anything. Shooting a 12 year old kid is wrong. People of all colors implicitly understand that. Now find and illustrate instances of less blatant racism to make that same case for everything else.

Given the history of every other social program I don't know how people think some general plan is actually gonna disproportionately help blacks.

Are you really going to sit here and say that Head Start, SNAP, WIC, Medicaid, Rent Control, the child tax credit, and probably a few more I'm forgetting don't disporportionately help black families? You know a lot of black people advocating to do away with those programs as ineffective? I know a lot of white people who say that, they're called Republicans.

One can argue that those programs could be improved or are not effective enough, but not that they don't help anybody. I've sat in people's homes and talked to them about how they use food stamps to make ends meet, I know they're helping somebody.

"I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection." MLK

I don't actually know exactly what you propose. I remain committed to the idea that a lump payment to each black person is a bad idea. Giving every black person $10K bucks or something like that isnt going to change much, but it will get a lot of the chattering class to say things like "so, now that the black community has received these checks, there are a lot of groups out there, and politicians like Donald Trump saying 'Hey, you've received your reparations, everything is square, stop complaining!'" (I'm already imagining it in an NPR voice.)
 
1) I would argue that reparations are really about being treated more than equally. It's a way to settle the score, not 'just be treated like everybody else'.

2) I would argue that very few people are consciously targeting black people for egregious mistreatment. In a way that makes it more insidious.

3) the majority of people (or at least a large portion) don't understand institutional racism, so dismissing them as obstacles means that basically everybody is an obstacle.


My point is that making it clear how institutional racism works to people who arent black is incredibly important to actually achieving anything. Shooting a 12 year old kid is wrong. People of all colors implicitly understand that. Now find and illustrate instances of less blatant racism to make that same case for everything else.



Are you really going to sit here and say that Head Start, SNAP, WIC, Medicaid, Rent Control, the child tax credit, and probably a few more I'm forgetting don't disporportionately help black families? You know a lot of black people advocating to do away with those programs as ineffective? I know a lot of white people who say that, they're called Republicans.

One can argue that those programs could be improved or are not effective enough, but not that they don't help anybody. I've sat in people's homes and talked to them about how they use food stamps to make ends meet, I know they're helping somebody.



I don't actually know exactly what you propose. I remain committed to the idea that a lump payment to each black person is a bad idea. Giving every black person $10K bucks or something like that isnt going to change much, but it will get a lot of the chattering class to say things like "so, now that the black community has received these checks, there are a lot of groups out there, and politicians like Donald Trump saying 'Hey, you've received your reparations, everything is square, stop complaining!'" (I'm already imagining it in an NPR voice.)

1. Argue that all you like. I don't think America will ever treat blacks equally. We can put them on relatively even economic footing and go from there though.

2. I don't care about white intentions. I care about their actions. I don't care if not 1 white person consciously commits racist acts because the systems they support still lead to black disenfranchisement, poverty and death in the streets. Fuck them for thinking their feelings about how they have beem racist(even if not intentionally) are more valuable than my life or that of my ancestors.

3. All they have to do is listen. It's not like blacks haven't been saying the same shit for centuries.


"According to the New York Times blacks comprise 22 percent of the poor, but blacks only take in 14 percent of government benefits. Conversely, whites make up 42 percent of the poor , but take in a disproportionate 69 percent of government benefits."
http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/eco...-about-government-benefits-makes-white-people

Sorry for formatting I'm on mobile.

I'm saying another program for whites to benefit more from is not reparations for blacks. It actually keeps the same balance as today. We should give direct money and benefits directly to the group who needs it. Anything less is just like that MLK quote aka anything but direct action for the Negroes.

I'm not arguing to leave poor whites out of social programs. I'm also not saying end existing social programs. I'm saying let's not build another social program just like those cause it will end up just like those.

10k would be some bullshit. Not even equal to the 300 a head slave owners got for reparations in 1862.
 
You point out the housing crisis, and the entire lower income bracket was targeted. A lot of the generational struggles of the blacks can be seen through the lense of class warfare. When so much of local wealth is based on income tax and property tax, there just isn't enough money to kickstart the lives of people living in squalor.

Why do you believe there just isn't enough? The gov't recently used liquidity facilities and guarantee schemes possibly hitting tens of trillions of dollars depending on the estimate in response to the financial crisis. And we still find it extremely difficult to calculate how much the Great Recession actually cost. Remember that when policymakers running the show assert that they saved something.

https://www.newyorkfed.org/medialibrary/media/research/epr/2013/0713adri.pdf

http://dallasfed.org/assets/documents/research/staff/staff1301.pdf

Moreover, there's the gov't deficit explosion in the US which disproportionately benefits the rich and white on the fiscal policy side.

http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/conf_april10/19th_Minsky_PPTs/19th_Minsky_Hatzius.pdf

Therefore, why make the claim that there's just not enough when it's clearly false? I mean damn blacks only need a fraction of that level of gov't assistance to raise their standards of living and perception of security. And IMO it would be more than justified. Many that enrich themselves today don't get $ because they're the best. And if people truly operated as rational individuals, then you should be pissed because we're light years apart in terms of gains in real terms. The biggest lie ever told is that gov't cannot do anything right. It truly is. I assure you that the racists, bigots, and corrupt in the US have used big gov't in a way that would make the Nazis and their Mefo bills blush. It's very sad people suffer, struggle, and die over silly ideas. Just goes to show you, ideas and abstractions are very powerful. Unfortunate, that Bernie doesn't seem like the guy to make things right.
 

KingV

Member
1. Argue that all you like. I don't think America will ever treat blacks equally. We can put them on relatively even economic footing and go from there though.

What does that even look like? Is it a lump payment of $100K? Free college with a living stipend?

I tend to look at it as lets address economic opportunity, because that's probably achievable, and I sort of understand what that looks like and how one can make steps towards getting there.
2. I don't care about white intentions. I care about their actions. I don't care if not 1 white person consciously commits racist acts because the systems they support still lead to black disenfranchisement, poverty and death in the streets. Fuck them for thinking their feelings about how they have beem racist(even if not intentionally) are more valuable than my life or that of my ancestors.

I think the systems are set up by white people with white social norms and mores. I don't even know that white people support the system, so much as its just how the system is and they just accept that

I do think that intentions are important. Some people might act differently, or have resolve to change the system (or at least would support it if asked) if they fully understood how it disadvantaged black people.

Saying that white people are at best apathetic and sort of racists by default is basically dehumanizing white people in the same way the system dehumanizes black people. The consequences are obviously less severe for white people, but its certainly not going to open any minds to start a conversation with "first of all fuck you".

3. All they have to do is listen. It's not like blacks haven't been saying the same shit for centuries.

I think white people are beginning to understand police brutality issues, but well-done explanations of institutional racism are not everywhere. Ta Nehisi Coates does a good job of explaining it, I think. Black Lives Matter does not (as a whole), though I think the guy on the that one late night show the other night did well.
"According to the New York Times blacks comprise 22 percent of the poor, but blacks only take in 14 percent of government benefits. Conversely, whites make up 42 percent of the poor , but take in a disproportionate 69 percent of government benefits."
http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/eco...-about-government-benefits-makes-white-people

Sorry for formatting I'm on mobile.

I'm saying another program for whites to benefit more from is not reparations for blacks. It actually keeps the same balance as today. We should give direct money and benefits directly to the group who needs it. Anything less is just like that MLK quote aka anything but direct action for the Negroes.

I'm not arguing to leave poor whites out of social programs. I'm also not saying end existing social programs. I'm saying let's not build another social program just like those cause it will end up just like those.

I think what you are saying is that access to social programs is unequal. That sounds to me like an eminently solvable problem. In my experience as an upper middle class white person, the successful black people that I've known through work are all very good at navigating White America. All of our systems are set up by white people in ways that make sense to white people.

They don't see the injustice because there is not that much injustice (for them). Being white gives you an advantage navigating social systems because they are designed by white people and there's some sort of cultural knowledge, or lack of cultural understanding that makes them easier for white people to navigate. That said, that's a skill that can be taught. If part of the problem is that black people lack access to social programs, try to figure out how to improve that.

Set up a charity to volunteer to help people access social support services. Figure out the rules for them and and help make sure people meet them. Find some white volunteers so that they can be educated on the struggle and pass that message on to their family and friends. Then work on changing the hurdles from the ground up.

When I go back to the successful black people thing, I think of the guy I used to work with that got a free ride to an Ivy League MBA program based on a scholarship program for black students. Im happy for him because he's a good dude, but he also didn't really need it. His parents are well off, and he doesn't NEED the money to pay for school. He's just knows how to navigate the system.

Every year there are Ivy League schools that have low income quotas that are unmet, because they can't get people to apply. Mentor some kids about the possibilities that are out there for them and help them apply.

Yeah those things are not reparations, but could make a real difference in people's lives today.

10k would be some bullshit. Not even equal to the 300 a head slave owners got for reparations in 1862.

I mean, what's not a bullshit number? Median net worth in the US is in the neighborhood of $80K I think? Is that a good number?

$80K is a lot of money, but its not going to change too many people's lives (not for long anyway).
 
$80K is a lot of money, but its not going to change too many people's lives (not for long anyway).

it would change plenty of lives- 80K across all 33 million or so african americans in the country would cost the US Government 2.6 Trillion dollars- and that's ignoring everyone who identifies as "biracial" or "hispanic" and not strictly "black". Make it an even 3 trillion.

Bankrupting the US government or causing overnight hyperinflation would change plenty of lives, sure.
 
What does that even look like? Is it a lump payment of $100K? Free college with a living stipend?

I tend to look at it as lets address economic opportunity, because that's probably achievable, and I sort of understand what that looks like and how one can make steps towards getting there.


I think the systems are set up by white people with white social norms and mores. I don't even know that white people support the system, so much as its just how the system is and they just accept that

I do think that intentions are important. Some people might act differently, or have resolve to change the system (or at least would support it if asked) if they fully understood how it disadvantaged black people.

Saying that white people are at best apathetic and sort of racists by default is basically dehumanizing white people in the same way the system dehumanizes black people. The consequences are obviously less severe for white people, but its certainly not going to open any minds to start a conversation with "first of all fuck you".



I think white people are beginning to understand police brutality issues, but well-done explanations of institutional racism are not everywhere. Ta Nehisi Coates does a good job of explaining it, I think. Black Lives Matter does not (as a whole), though I think the guy on the that one late night show the other night did well.


I think what you are saying is that access to social programs is unequal. That sounds to me like an eminently solvable problem. In my experience as an upper middle class white person, the successful black people that I've known through work are all very good at navigating White America. All of our systems are set up by white people in ways that make sense to white people.

They don't see the injustice because there is not that much injustice (for them). Being white gives you an advantage navigating social systems because they are designed by white people and there's some sort of cultural knowledge, or lack of cultural understanding that makes them easier for white people to navigate. That said, that's a skill that can be taught. If part of the problem is that black people lack access to social programs, try to figure out how to improve that.

Set up a charity to volunteer to help people access social support services. Figure out the rules for them and and help make sure people meet them. Find some white volunteers so that they can be educated on the struggle and pass that message on to their family and friends. Then work on changing the hurdles from the ground up.

When I go back to the successful black people thing, I think of the guy I used to work with that got a free ride to an Ivy League MBA program based on a scholarship program for black students. Im happy for him because he's a good dude, but he also didn't really need it. His parents are well off, and he doesn't NEED the money to pay for school. He's just knows how to navigate the system.

Every year there are Ivy League schools that have low income quotas that are unmet, because they can't get people to apply. Mentor some kids about the possibilities that are out there for them and help them apply.

Yeah those things are not reparations, but could make a real difference in people's lives today.



I mean, what's not a bullshit number? Median net worth in the US is in the neighborhood of $80K I think? Is that a good number?

$80K is a lot of money, but its not going to change too many people's lives (not for long anyway).


We are looking at millions per person. 1.5 if we are only compensating lost wages from the estimates I've seen. That's very conservative.

Well do you really expect a nicer start to the conversation after centuries of dehumanization? I don't know who else is more responsible for the white supremacist power structure other than whites themselves. It certainly didn't build and maintain and enforce itself. But as always white feelings above black lives in America. If they needed a source there is the horse's mouth. But let's continue to call all the people who don't believe our experience our dear friends.

It's eminently solvable by giving blacks money directly. Despite the impediments in accessing the economy that still exist structurally with the capital they can create infrastructure for themselves. So long as it's not burned down again.

Frankly I'm tired of all these conversations boiling down to let's look at those exceptional few who have been successful at navigating the white game. They are exceptions, not the rule. Direct investment can and would meaningfully change circumstances for those who are the rule. It might even allow blacks to create their own cultural systems of support. It's rather patronizing to hear that the systems that have failed for centuries are the only ones we can have or model after because those don't offend white sensibilities. Ignoring monetary restitution having been fine prior.
 

xnipx

Member
If Bernie would have said any of the things being said in this thread about WHY reparations are not a good idea I would respect him a lot more. Instead he copped out and blamed his non support on passability. I agree that reparations would be a clusterfuck trying to implement accurately. That's all he had to say.
 

Valhelm

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KingV

Member
it would change plenty of lives- 80K across all 33 million or so african americans in the country would cost the US Government 2.6 Trillion dollars- and that's ignoring everyone who identifies as "biracial" or "hispanic" and not strictly "black". Make it an even 3 trillion.

Bankrupting the US government or causing overnight hyperinflation would change plenty of lives, sure.

So the total Net Wealth of the US is about $84.9 Trillion according to this WSJ Article:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-net-worth-hits-high-of-84-9-trillion-1434038401

80K * 33 Million Black people = ~$2.6 Trillion

Theoretically, this is probably possible, though most of that net worth is not in cash, but in some form of assets.

The monetary base is roughly $36 Trillion, so printing $2.6 trillion and giving it out would create inflation of roughly 7% at once. While that would be terrible economic policy, it's probably not the end of the world (though probably would be the impetus for some type of financial crisis). The Fed effectively printed quite a bit more than that since 2008 to try to goose the economy in the great recession through its various levers.

The Fed, realistically, could use its various mechanisms to take the $2.6 trillion out of the economy somewhere else (and probably trigger a recession) to avoid inflation. Of course, it might have looked like as net positive for the economy in 2009! There were some economists promoting the idea of just printing money and giving it away to help fight the recession.

That said...
We are looking at millions per person. 1.5 if we are only compensating lost wages from the estimates I've seen. That's very conservative.

$1.5 Million to 42 Million black Americans is $63 Trillion Dollars. Again, the entire wealth of the United States (in private hands, at least) is $84.9 Trillion. 64/85 is about 75%.

So you're saying, that the only equitable solution is that US taxes everybody else at 75+% of what they own... Not their income, we're talking selling cars, selling houses, liquidating 401K's, etc, and then forks that over to the black community? And that's conservative? You're saying that if not for slavery, black people would either account for 75% of the nation's wealth OR that the economy would be roughly 65% bigger than it is today?

And you wonder why there aren't any politicians that support taking 75% of everybody's shit to give it to 12% of the population for something that happened 150 years ago?

I'm not one to usually say "Hey, let's look at what's politically feasible", but this is like literally impossible. I don't even know how you would transfer that much wealth.


Well do you really expect a nicer start to the conversation after centuries of dehumanization? I don't know who else is more responsible for the white supremacist power structure other than whites themselves. It certainly didn't build and maintain and enforce itself. But as always white feelings above black lives in America. If they needed a source there is the horse's mouth. But let's continue to call all the people who don't believe our experience our dear friends.

Dude, I get that it's unjust, but I didn't build the white power structure, neither did anybody else alive today. Someone set shit up that way hundreds of years ago, and we all were just born into it. White people don't understand white privilege because it's just the way the world has always been for them. You can be mad at them for it, but you're not going to gain an inch by cursing out every white dude on the street for something he doesn't even understand.

It's eminently solvable by giving blacks money directly. Despite the impediments in accessing the economy that still exist structurally with the capital they can create infrastructure for themselves. So long as it's not burned down again.

Frankly I'm tired of all these conversations boiling down to let's look at those exceptional few who have been successful at navigating the white game. They are exceptions, not the rule. Direct investment can and would meaningfully change circumstances for those who are the rule. It might even allow blacks to create their own cultural systems of support. It's rather patronizing to hear that the systems that have failed for centuries are the only ones we can have or model after because those don't offend white sensibilities. Ignoring monetary restitution having been fine prior.

It's not rocket science to navigate the white game. White people do it all the time. Minorities from all over the world do it, black people do it. There's really nothing exceptional about it at all. One could teach black people that don't understand how to play the game how to play it.

The white game could be changed to be something that's more easily navigated by everybody, but somebody will have to educate people that play the white game why it's a white game, in terms that everybody can understand.

I don't think it's about "offending white sensibilities" so much as recognizing that learning to navigate the system as it is, and tweaking it in ways that make it more equitable is a lot easier than throwing the whole thing out and creating something from scratch and is at least something that progress can be made on relatively quickly.

For what it's worth, during our discussion I went and read Ta-Nehisi Coates article from a few years ago in the Atlantic called "The Case for Reparations" and have come around a bit on the issue. I still don't think Bernie deserves the criticism, and definitely don't think the right answer is $1.5 Million. Coates doesn't really propose anything specifically, other than "hey let's talk about what this might be".
 

Not

Banned
Some good points from Coates. I don't think it's more ridiculous getting a reparations bill through congress than any of the other progressive stuff Bernie's pushing.
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
So going back to the very beginning of the issue, how did reparations turn into a Bernie Sanders problem, or turn into something he had to believe in to not be castigated?
 

aquavelva

Member
Strong progressive taxation would accomplish the same thing, especially since it's silly to single out the descendants of slave owners just as it would be silly to target reparations towards the descendants of slaves (as opposed to other black Americans who possibly immigrated from Africa or the West Indies at a later period).

It is divisive in the sense that it creates a program that specifically benefits "those people" and provokes ire amongst poor whites, feeding into the GOP narrative that African Americans just want a handout from white folks, whereas across-the-board antipoverty programs are less controversial (although the GOP has poisoned that well pretty thoroughly, where far too many poor whites vote against their own best interests because they think they're screwing over black people in the process).

How would strong progressive taxation address systematic white supremacy? How will it address the fact that I'm less likely to get a job if my name is Laquan Johnson?
 

aquavelva

Member
sorry but how do you quantify reparations on this scale?

You qualify by being one of the descendants of the enslaved Africans who built this country. My girlfriend's family traced their ancestors back to a plantation in Georgia.

Mines trace back to a plantation in Jamaica. Right now the Jamaican government is demanding Britain pay reparations to the descendants of those enslaved Africans.
 
"Give me money solely because of my skin color" is an extreme position. It is exceedingly divisive.

Here's the thing - a black person living in the US is going to experience the aftereffects of slavery in some form or another. The reparations shouldn't just be for those people who descended from slaves, but should also be used to lessen the damage caused by slavery to all black people in the US.
 

aquavelva

Member
Passing free college or single payer would be far easier than passing reparations, but that's not what I was referring to anyway. People like to talk about the general idea of "reparations" but without any actual ideas on implementation. Reparations are impossible (and arguably immoral) from a logistical perspective on top of the political roadblocks.

Please explain how reparations is immoral?
 
So the total Net Wealth of the US is about $84.9 Trillion according to this WSJ Article:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/americans-net-worth-hits-high-of-84-9-trillion-1434038401

80K * 33 Million Black people = ~$2.6 Trillion

Theoretically, this is probably possible, though most of that net worth is not in cash, but in some form of assets.

The monetary base is roughly $36 Trillion, so printing $2.6 trillion and giving it out would create inflation of roughly 7% at once. While that would be terrible economic policy, it's probably not the end of the world (though probably would be the impetus for some type of financial crisis). The Fed effectively printed quite a bit more than that since 2008 to try to goose the economy in the great recession through its various levers.

The Fed, realistically, could use its various mechanisms to take the $2.6 trillion out of the economy somewhere else (and probably trigger a recession) to avoid inflation. Of course, it might have looked like as net positive for the economy in 2009! There were some economists promoting the idea of just printing money and giving it away to help fight the recession.

That said...


$1.5 Million to 42 Million black Americans is $63 Trillion Dollars. Again, the entire wealth of the United States (in private hands, at least) is $84.9 Trillion. 64/85 is about 75%.

So you're saying, that the only equitable solution is that US taxes everybody else at 75+% of what they own... Not their income, we're talking selling cars, selling houses, liquidating 401K's, etc, and then forks that over to the black community? And that's conservative? You're saying that if not for slavery, black people would either account for 75% of the nation's wealth OR that the economy would be roughly 65% bigger than it is today?

And you wonder why there aren't any politicians that support taking 75% of everybody's shit to give it to 12% of the population for something that happened 150 years ago?

I'm not one to usually say "Hey, let's look at what's politically feasible", but this is like literally impossible. I don't even know how you would transfer that much wealth.




Dude, I get that it's unjust, but I didn't build the white power structure, neither did anybody else alive today. Someone set shit up that way hundreds of years ago, and we all were just born into it. White people don't understand white privilege because it's just the way the world has always been for them. You can be mad at them for it, but you're not going to gain an inch by cursing out every white dude on the street for something he doesn't even understand.



It's not rocket science to navigate the white game. White people do it all the time. Minorities from all over the world do it, black people do it. There's really nothing exceptional about it at all. One could teach black people that don't understand how to play the game how to play it.

The white game could be changed to be something that's more easily navigated by everybody, but somebody will have to educate people that play the white game why it's a white game, in terms that everybody can understand.

I don't think it's about "offending white sensibilities" so much as recognizing that learning to navigate the system as it is, and tweaking it in ways that make it more equitable is a lot easier than throwing the whole thing out and creating something from scratch and is at least something that progress can be made on relatively quickly.

For what it's worth, during our discussion I went and read Ta-Nehisi Coates article from a few years ago in the Atlantic called "The Case for Reparations" and have come around a bit on the issue. I still don't think Bernie deserves the criticism, and definitely don't think the right answer is $1.5 Million. Coates doesn't really propose anything specifically, other than "hey let's talk about what this might be".

Amortization over a number of years. Should have payed up before to avoid all that interest. Considering it would have been impossible to develop the New World without slaves thus no nice economy today I'd say that's getting off light. Slaves produced 70% of the world's cotton and literally laid the foundation for America's economic growth.

You're kidding yourself if you think no one alive is still propping that shit up today and adding to it. We have new laws geared towards keeping black and minority voters from the polls for our upcoming election. I'm sure they have no idea what they are doing and just want to eliminate the nigh non existent problem of voter fraud. Those didn't come from people a hundred years ago. It must be so nice to be a part of a group and still get a pass on being judged by their behavior and actions.

I don't care how easy you find the white poverty social nets to navigate, they don't work and NEVER have for eliminating black poverty. That's how you know it's all about white sensibility. Having proof their programs have never made discernable difference in black poverty but still telling blacks to use them. OK Massa whatever is easiest and makes the most sense to you despite its proven ineffectiveness for me.

I would have in the past accepted free valuable homes in nice communities in addition to a smaller stipend but I know history too well. In 6 months to a year white flight and red lining all over again. Leaving nicer looking ghettos and crumbling schools. Without the capital to build our own neighborhoods, schools and systems of support there will never be a way out of poverty for blacks.
 

entremet

Member
Reparations aren't realistic. Pursuing them should be abandoned because it is not happening.

If we're serious and realistic about racial progress, drug law reform is the first step.
 
$1.5 Million to 42 Million black Americans is $63 Trillion Dollars. Again, the entire wealth of the United States (in private hands, at least) is $84.9 Trillion. 64/85 is about 75%.

Your maths is off. There were about 3.6 million slaves before it ended, so it is 1.5 x 3.6 = 5.4 trillion dollars distributed among all black people. The GDP of the united states is over 16 trillions, but still the reparations would be paid over several years, thus making it solvable just by defunding the military for a decade. And this money is to be taxed as well, so the amount is even less. Reparations are realistic
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Your maths is off. There were about 3.6 million slaves before it ended, so it is 1.5 x 3.6 = 5.4 trillion dollars distributed among all black people. The GDP of the united states is over 16 trillions, but still the reparations would be paid over several years, thus making it solvable just by defunding the military for a decade. And this money is to be taxed as well, so the amount is even less. Reparations are realistic

Defund the military?

Do you realize that the military also directly or indirectly results in almost 4 million jobs in this country?

4 million jobs out of 122 million jobs.


On topic:

Any form of reparations need to be in the form of education grants, housing subsidies (as in BUYING, not renting), and job creation. The fix to the problem is providing economic mobility.. we need more people moving up the ladder out of poverty and the building of wealth over generations.
 
This thread's turned into trash, but I'll add two cents.

1) Equality without equity don't mean shit. Hence, reparations.

2) I will say this about Bernie Sander's current sidekick Killer Mike, he's right that land ownership should be a big part of the reparations discussion. That's valuable, more than cash. And I'd add that that land can only be sold privately if need be (or given back to the government for more cash), not to corporations.

It also means Native Americans should be involved in the discussion as well.
 
I think its stuff like this why, at least going by the polling, minorities haven't jumped ship and gone to his side. Not to take anything away from his record or himself as a person, who has been fighting the fight for a long time; but it just seems he doesn't excite the minority youth or include their interests as much in regards to being made to feel apart of political revolution.

Sure its a ridiculously high standard to criticize him for not supporting this sort of thing, because you really won't find anyone in American politics who will. But I suppose that is kind of the point; that high standard and being seemingly the only politician in American politics who has supported a certain agenda is what made him so attractive to the white liberal base, and how he got to where he is now.

Nothing in his political agenda has anything to do with how likely something is to pass. Or how practical something is. Its about being a dreamer and telling the young people of America how they have been screwed over. That their struggles are not their fault. That they are entitled to take back what the government and banks have taken from them. If the white youth are entitled to huge wage increases, health care as a right, a larger piece of the pie of the richest country in the history of the world, a better chance to achieve what their parents achieved, then I don't see why minorities shouldn't feel entitled to reparations. Minorities in this country have been screwed over far worse by this country than any white person has been screwed by a Wall Street banker.
 
Why should blacks give a shit how whites feel? After all we certainly don't give a shit how they feel. Reparations are not the answer to end all but, they will help. It's the least we can do considering we've butchered and enslaved them for generations and still butcher and keep them down. Who the fuck gives a shit if it makes whites have to pay more taxes? 'd gladly pay more if it meant helping blacks find some semblance of justice. If it meant a black family can finally live again, can finally send their kids to school, can put food on the table. It'd be worth it to me.

Your maths is off. There were about 3.6 million slaves before it ended, so it is 1.5 x 3.6 = 5.4 trillion dollars distributed among all black people. The GDP of the united states is over 16 trillions, but still the reparations would be paid over several years, thus making it solvable just by defunding the military for a decade. And this money is to be taxed as well, so the amount is even less. Reparations are realistic

B-B-But, I was told it would bankrupt the US!
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
This thread's turned into trash, but I'll add two cents.

1) Equality without equity don't mean shit. Hence, reparations.

2) I will say this about Bernie Sander's current sidekick Killer Mike, he's right that land ownership should be a big part of the reparations discussion. That's valuable, more than cash. And I'd add that that land can only be sold privately if need be (or given back to the government for more cash), not to corporations.

It also means Native Americans should be involved in the discussion as well.

I agree, that would be a great first step. Give big grants and reduced interest rates so that black families can build generational wealth.
 
This thread's turned into trash, but I'll add two cents.

1) Equality without equity don't mean shit. Hence, reparations.

2) I will say this about Bernie Sander's current sidekick Killer Mike, he's right that land ownership should be a big part of the reparations discussion. That's valuable, more than cash. And I'd add that that land can only be sold privately if need be (or given back to the government for more cash), not to corporations.

It also means Native Americans should be involved in the discussion as well.

I like the idea of #2. I just see how the government handled this with Native American Tribes. No guarantee its valuable or useful land which would inherently lower the amount of capital it can be leveraged for. If it's known as black or reparations land I can't help but think the only sales they would get on such land would be abysmal or at nigh predatory rates. There might be ways to avoid that but given our history I'm pretty worried.

Native Americans really do need to be involved in any such conversation.
 

GYODX

Member
Your maths is off. There were about 3.6 million slaves before it ended, so it is 1.5 x 3.6 = 5.4 trillion dollars distributed among all black people. The GDP of the united states is over 16 trillions, but still the reparations would be paid over several years, thus making it solvable just by defunding the military for a decade. And this money is to be taxed as well, so the amount is even less. Reparations are realistic
Lmao

Thank fuck you people aren't in charge.
 

KingV

Member
Your maths is off. There were about 3.6 million slaves before it ended, so it is 1.5 x 3.6 = 5.4 trillion dollars distributed among all black people. The GDP of the united states is over 16 trillions, but still the reparations would be paid over several years, thus making it solvable just by defunding the military for a decade. And this money is to be taxed as well, so the amount is even less. Reparations are realistic

My math was right, I just thought that the person meant give each current black American $1.5 million not $1.5 million per previous black enslaved person.

That's like a $130K per current black person. Really not that far off from the $80K I pulled straight from my ass.

Amortized over like a dozen years it wouldn't bankrupt the country (which technically, is impossible anyway). But is that really going to make that much difference?

I guess if you were smart about it you could buy a house, move into a nicer neighborhood, or pay for school.
 

lednerg

Member
"Why Is Bernie Sanders Against Reparations?" is an interesting question, since he's not.

It's as fair as asking why he hasn't stopped beating his wife.
 
You know what would be better than reparations? A more social democratic America.

It's quite clear that there is a substantial chunk of America that believes reparations are a way of repairing some of the damage done by centuries of racism, yet you don't hear much about how social democratic reforms- healthcare, education, public sector investment- would be a far better long term plan.

In fact the concept of reparation itself is borderline socialist, but the two are rarely connected together in the discussion.

As an Englishman it's very weird to see how obsessed with race America still is, on both sides. It's going to require far more than free money to one particular race to overcome it. It needs national reform with a focus on communities, aspiration (realistic aspiration) and a fair start for everybody, otherwise it'll continue being lobsters in a bucket for black america.
 

lednerg

Member
^^
One answer that makes immediate sense is government funding for community-centric businesses that are worker-owned. For example, there's one starting in Greensboro, North Carolina, a community laden with more "food deserts" than just about anywhere in America. The last grocery store they had was a national chain, a Winn-Dixie, which closed shop and completely abandoned them in the late 90's. Nobody else has been able to fill the void since, so the community is now taking it upon themselves to get the ball rolling. They're aiming to make a neighborhood grocery store, one that keeps the wealth locally contained as much as possible. Here's the story about their goals and what they've gone through so far:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxslQftdoWw&list=PLIwT3Ccq2SFBGEdQlHRb0lm7zpLiIXXzt

In Northeast Greensboro residents just want a grocery store.

In the late 1990’s the local Winn Dixie that had served the neighborhoods around Philips Avenue for many years closed down. Winn Dixie and other large grocery chains divided up market territory resulting in the closing of some stores despite their profitability. The loss of this Winn Dixie turned Northeast Greensboro into a food desert.

Over the next 15+ years there were many efforts to lure a new grocery store into the space. However, while the store would be profitable, it wouldn’t be profitable enough to satisfy the demands of the shareholder-based economy of a large corporation. Fed up with waiting and, essentially, begging for access to affordable, quality food, residents in this predominantly African-American and low-income community decided to open their own grocery store.

After learning about cooperative businesses they decided to open a community-owned grocery store. The store, the Renaissance Community Cooperative, would meet the community’s dual needs for access to quality food and dignified, good paying jobs. When the RCC opens [...] it will be a conventional grocery store (think of a Food Lion or Kroger) where wages start at $10 per hour.
[...]​

This is the kind of action that desperately needs to be taken, and it needs to be given government funding. We need more American communities ravaged by urban blight to be given the tools to drag themselves out of misery. We're the richest, most fortunate nation in the world and yet we pretend like there's no such thing as bad luck. As if poor people deserve to be poor and that's that - end of story. It's disgusting. Americans should be more than happy to give our fellow citizens the opportunity to strive if they lack that opportunity. It should be bizarre to think that we wouldn't.

We should be asking those who would rather we be ruled by private conglomerates - who exactly are those businesses accountable to, and why should we automatically care about them? What are they fighting for, aside from whatever makes their shareholders richer? Why should the profits of some company that's detached from my community be my problem? Screw that noise.
 
You know what would be better than reparations? A more social democratic America.

It's quite clear that there is a substantial chunk of America that believes reparations are a way of repairing some of the damage done by centuries of racism, yet you don't hear much about how social democratic reforms- healthcare, education, public sector investment- would be a far better long term plan.

In fact the concept of reparation itself is borderline socialist, but the two are rarely connected together in the discussion.

As an Englishman it's very weird to see how obsessed with race America still is, on both sides. It's going to require far more than free money to one particular race to overcome it. It needs national reform with a focus on communities, aspiration (realistic aspiration) and a fair start for everybody, otherwise it'll continue being lobsters in a bucket for black america.

People in America talk about healthcare, education, and public sector investment all the time. They just implicitly mean for white people. Since no one listens to angry black people let me give you some quotes from the National Poverty Center to get those who don't understand why the social programs we have don't work for people of color:

"Joe Soss and Sanford F. Schram conclude that the decentralized and discretionary nature of state welfare programs allows for different treatment of racial groups, even when such policies are touted as “raceneutral.” States with greater numbers of blacks and Hispanics on the welfare rolls are more likely to impose lifetime limits, family caps on benefits for mothers who give birth, and stricter sanctions for not complying with work requirements. As a result, nationwide, a majority of white recipients experience the most generous welfare programs and a majority of black recipients, the most restrictive." - Though people in this thread would have you believe it's just that blacks can't wrap their head around these social programs and how to navigate them.

"The collateral consequences of felony conviction—such as bans on entering many occupations, on voting, jury service, and receiving federal college loans and grants—harm both exoffenders and their communities." - ×This disproportionately excludes men of color from participating in the political process aka voting. Of course that's always the first thing a white person says blacks need to do more of. Yet they ignore that 60% of the people in prison are black and incapable of such participation. Or that Black men have a 1 in 3 chances of being incarcerated vs a white mans 1 in 19 chances.

"Lin and Harris conclude that if we are to strive for a society in which poverty is not colored, we must pay more attention to race." -Probably because black poverty is different and more devastating than white poverty. Don't believe me look at the disparity in wealth with this
MLKday003.png
.

"Devah Pager argues that while certain forms of systemic discrimination have largely receded, others have persisted. For example, geographic steering of black and Hispanic homebuyers remains common and 50% of black respondents in a recent Gallup Poll reported incidents of discrimination within the month prior to the survey. In a two-city audit study, employers were twice as likely to hire a white applicant as an equally qualified black applicant for an entry-level position. T hey were just as likely to hire a white recently released from prison as a black applicant with no criminal history." - This is my primary concern with land, housing and educational forms of reparations. Even with funds to buy a nice house and an education for a good job doesn't mean that blacks will be allowed to view the homes in nice areas or get the job they are educated for.

"In the last section of the volume, the authors show how public policies deepen and in some cases create racial inequality. Housing policies, crime policies, and antipoverty policies concentrate advantage and disadvantage, undercutting their stated goals of improving the well being of all Americans. Michael Stoll shows that the traditional juxtaposition of poor black central cities and wealthy white suburbs has changed. While central cities are still overwhelmingly black, especially among the poor, suburbs are becoming both more racially diverse and more poor. T he economic and racial integration of the suburbs, however, has not led to more numerous routes out of poverty. Transportation, zoning, development regulations, and housing assistance tend to perpetuate racial and economic stratification in the suburbs." - Even when in areas where access to social programs is higher we still see no lifting from poverty. The final quote will show you why living in an area with access is unlikely for people of color.

"Scott W. Allard’s analysis of the availability and provision of socialservices reinforces Stoll’s conclusions. Individuals in high poverty, highly black neighborhoods are the least likely to have access to food pantries, child care, transportation, job training, substance abuse treatment or other, similar social services. Instead, these services are much more likely to be located in low-poverty census tracts, and in predominantly white areas. Hispanics have more accessibility to social services when they live in mixed-race areas. However, the growing presence of Hispanics in poor rural areas bodes ill for future access"

It's hard not to be obsessed with race when you see how people are treated because of it. Especially when you are in the shit end of the stick part. Americans have been making race nuetral programs that do their best to exclude people of color since it's inception. Even with access to those programs and a good education Institutional racism prevents people of color from reaping any real gain. Why should I accept more of the programs that try to exclude me as reparations for what was(and still is) being done? An even better question would be why should people of color ever believe Americans when they talk about healthcare, education, or public sector investment for all? Because we know it's never really egalitarian.
 

jmood88

Member
Ta-Nehisi Coates said:
This, too, leaves us in poor company. “Hillary Clinton is against reparations, too” does not differ from, “What about black on black crime?” That Clinton doesn’t support reparations is an actual problem, much like high murder rates in black communities are actual problems. But neither of these are actual answers to the questions being asked. It is not wrong to ask about high murder rates in black communities. But when the question is furnished as an answer for police violence, it is evasion. It is not wrong to ask why mainstream Democrats don’t support reparations. But when the question is asked to defend a radical Democrat’s lack of support, it is avoidance.

The need for so many (although not all) of Sanders’s supporters to deflect the question, to speak of Hillary Clinton instead of directly assessing whether Sanders’s position is consistent, intelligent, and moral hints at something terrible and unsaid. The terribleness is this: To destroy white supremacy we must commit ourselves to the promotion of unpopular policy. To commit ourselves solely to the promotion of popular policy means making peace with white supremacy.

But hope still lies in the imagined thing. Liberals have dared to believe in the seemingly impossible—a socialist presiding over the most capitalist nation to ever exist. If the liberal imagination is so grand as to assert this new American reality, why when confronting racism, presumably a mere adjunct of class, should it suddenly come up shaky? Is shy incrementalism really the lesson of this fortuitous outburst of Vermont radicalism? Or is it that constraining the political imagination, too, constrains the possible? If we can be inspired to directly address class in such radical ways, why should we allow our imaginative powers end there?
These and other questions were recently put to Sanders. His answer was underwhelming.

It does not have to be this way. One could imagine a candidate asserting the worth of reparations, the worth of John Conyers HR-40, while also correctly noting the present lack of working coalition. What should be unimaginable is defaulting to the standard of Clintonism, of “Yes, but she’s against it, too.”A left radicalism that fails to debate its own standards, that counsels misdirection, that preaches avoidance, is really just a radicalism of convenience.
www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/bernie-sanders-liberal-imagination/425022/
 
But it is classism. I swear. People only see degrees, w-2s, and health insurance. Once we get those things straightened out, there will be no more problems. Promise
Geeze, I knew you Bernie stans were obsessed but it's ok to admit when he's wrong. You don't have to present him as the savior of our nation, the perfect guy who never errs.

And it's a little naïve to deny that race plays a role in discrimination, even if class is a large part of it.
 

jmood88

Member
Geeze, I knew you Bernie stans were obsessed but it's ok to admit when he's wrong. You don't have to present him as the savior of our nation, the perfect guy who never errs.

And it's a little naïve to deny that race plays a role in discrimination, even if class is a large part of it.
He's being sarcastic.
 

rjinaz

Member
Geeze, I knew you Bernie stans were obsessed but it's ok to admit when he's wrong. You don't have to present him as the savior of our nation, the perfect guy who never errs.

And it's a little naïve to deny that race plays a role in discrimination, even if class is a large part of it.

Serious question. When was the last time you called out Hillary?
 
He's being sarcastic.
My bad. It's honestly hard to tell with these Bernie fans from their ivory towers, who don't operate in the real world.
Serious question. When was the last time you called out Hillary?
I don't recall. But like the article above says more eloquently than I can, what's the difference? She's not claiming to be the best thing that can possibly happen to America, while Sanders is. His focus on solely tackling ecobomics and breaking up the banks ignores the real issues in this country.
 
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