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[injurai]

Forest through the trees.

For.

For the trees.

If we are going to be jumping on people for wording.

We better be consistent right?

 

[brainchild]

Yeah, Bernie's not ignorant as to why the GOP is helping him and he has no problem letting them do it if it's going to help him get the nomination.

For.

For the trees.

If we are going to be jumping on people for wording.

We better be consistent right?

LMAO

 

[BennyBlanco]

I wonder if this bernie sanders hypeman role he's taken up is gonna hurt or help Killer Mikes career.

 

[The Lamonster]

Yup.

And it is the same with the rise of Trump.

People are just sick of the establishment and their inability to solve problems while they ramble on about "Change".

Bernie Sanders has been a part of Congress since 1991.

 

[noshten]

He generally retweets anyone who @s him, even people who insult him directly.

It's almost like people aren't familiar with Killer Mike

Crip niggas, Blood nigga, ese’s, Asians
Why the fuck we warring with each other’s population?
The devil wanna dead all our population
People in Folk nation, why the separation?
Why we got Jamaicans hatin’ on Haitians
When the British and French raped both nations?
Mexicans and Blacks kill each other, straight hating
While the government profits from prison population
If you on the bottom, be you Anglo or Asian
You gotta recognize the realness of what I’m sayin’
You gotta recognize another G ain’t the enemy
When the police ride to kill us frequently
We gotta make the youth see, where the truth be
If you a G, then grow and develop GD
50 years of gangs and our people still poor
If we really run the streets, we should really end war

 

[GamerJM]

It's a two-way street.

"People aren't defaming social equality supporters by mentioning SJWs, they're talking about a specific subset of incredibly obnoxious people who look for every opportunity to be outraged."

If someone's rhetoric falls back on some generalization or acronym then they may just be as problematic as the person or group they are criticizing.

I'd say the difference between the two terms is that "SJW," is kind of nebulous and undefined. I've seen "SJW," used to refer to anyone further left than Donald Trump to a very small subset of dumb obnoxious teenagers young adults on Tumblr who post about social justice issues (like not even the majority of teens who post on Tumblr about SJ stuff, just people who post things like "telling people not to drink while pregnant is ableist," or whatever). The word has lost all meaning so it's basically become a catch-all term for anyone who cares about social justice by the majority of people who use it.

Berniebro on the other hand is pretty clearly defined:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/here-comes-the-berniebro-bernie-sanders/411070/

 

[Frozenprince]

For.

For the trees.

If we are going to be jumping on people for wording.

We better be consistent right?

Argue that semantics in wording is inconsequential.

Harped on over semantics in idiom.

Arguing semantics when you agree in principle is stupid. It's why intelligent discourse in this country has ground to a halt.

 

[injurai]

I wonder if this bernie sanders hypeman role he's taken up is gonna hurt or help Killer Mikes career.

It's not like he is against women's rights. I don't really see how him preferring Sanders will impact him much, other than in the eyes of vindictive people that weren't fans to start.

Argue that semantics in wording is inconsequential.

Harped on over semantics in idiom.

Arguing semantics when you agree in principle is stupid.

Wow, you're really fucking dense.

 

[brainchild]

I'd say the difference between the two terms is kind of nebulous and undefined. I've seen "SJW," used to refer to anything from anyone further left than Donald Trump to a very small subset of dumb obnoxious teenagers young adults on Tumblr who post about social justice issues (like not even the majority of teens who post on Tumblr about SJ stuff, just people who post things like "telling people not to drink while pregnant is ableist," or whatever). The word has lost all meaning so it's basically become a catch-all term for anyone who cares about social justice by the majority of people who use it.

Berniebro on the other hand is pretty clearly defined:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/here-comes-the-berniebro-bernie-sanders/411070/

At this point, the definition doesn't matter, the use does, and both terms are used as ignorant generalizations.

 

[bearythebear]

At the end of the day, the question is that: Do "symbolic" gestures have value?

Clearly they do. Electing a woman to the highest level of the American government for the first time is valuable. It might be hard to quantify, but it's still a positive step.

Of course a voter should look at all the aspects of a nominee, but saying that her gender shouldn't have some impact (even just a little bit) on a voters decision is dumb.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I'm not sure. You can literally have Carl Sagan run for president and he's risk losing, because of how anti-reason America is. For many of Sanders' domestic points, he's on point, but that doesn't mean a thing in this society.

In my opinion, most people disagreeing with Sanders do it for the wrong reasons.
They dismiss socialist programs as a pipedream, bad for the economy or bad for freedom.
All that is bullshit. But because everyone is just talking bullshit nobody is talking about the fact that Sanders proposals are actually not very well thought out and very simplistic.
Sanders always says he wants to debate the issues
Unfortunately there is no real debate about the issues because everyone is just repeating the same 30-45 second talking points.
Maybe Sanders should come to Europe and let the social democratic parties rip his plan appart, but i a constructive way, that way he could actually improve on his ideas.

 

[Frozenprince]

Wow, you're really fucking dense.

So nice. Missing the point, but nice.

 

[BennyBlanco]

It's not like he is against women's rights. I don't really see how him preferring Sanders will impact him much, other than in the eyes of vindictive people that weren't fans to start.



Wow, you're really fucking dense.

Well I would hope not. Just saying he's getting a ton of publicity over this and wasn't really popping recently.

 

[dehydratedbabies]

It's really stupid to suggest that someone can't utilize their minority status as a selling point, considering that the minority status fucks them over in nearly every other facet of society. It's not like anyone's suggesting that her being female is the one and only, end all be all selling point of her candidacy.

What is the selling point of "I'm a woman"?

 

[brainchild]

At the end of the day, the question is that: Do "symbolic" gestures have value?

Clearly they do. Electing a woman to the highest level of the American government for the first time is valuable. It might be hard to quantify, but it's still a positive step.

Of course a voter should look at all the aspects of a nominee, but saying that her gender shouldn't have some impact (even just a little bit) on a voters decision is dumb.

At the end of the day, that is not the question that Killer Mike was responding to.

In the context of the speech that the quote was taken from, he was actually responding to the criticism of Bernie supporters not supporting Hillary, considering that she's a woman. That's when he quoted Jane Elliott. I think that is absolutely fair to say when someone challenges your decision to not support Hillary.

I don't think people understand the context of the quote; it was a defensive response, not an attack on Hillary Clinton.

 

[Frozenprince]

What is the selling point of "I'm a woman"?

That she can understand and empathize a marginalized cross section of society for a common factor?

Just spitballing here.

 

[veloxStrix]

Argue that semantics in wording is inconsequential.

Harped on over semantics in idiom.

Arguing semantics when you agree in principle is stupid. It's why intelligent discourse in this country has ground to a halt.

I think this line of thought, not necessarily you yourself as a person of some denomination and type, is really fucking dense.

It's all about the wording. I'm available anytime, Killer Mike. PM me.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

What is the selling point of "I'm a woman"?

The general idea is that you have a better understanding of what a marginalized group has gone through if you yourself are a member of that marginalized group.

 

[dehydratedbabies]

That she can understand and empathize a marginalized cross section of society for a common factor?

And Bernie can't?

The general idea is that you have a better understanding of what a marginalized group has gone through if you yourself are a member of that marginalized group.

Do you agree with that?

 

[Frozenprince]

I think this line of thought, not necessarily you yourself as a person of some denomination and type, is really fucking dense.

It's all about the wording. I'm available anytime, Killer Mike. PM me.

My point is that the argumentation that "well Killer Mikes sentiment was right just worded improperly" is pointless because you can use language to gauge how strong your comments are or aren't, sure.

But it also fundamentally misses the point, by dragging this into an argument about the semantics of your words when you agree in principle is the issue, because the principle itself is the issue.

Which is why nothing ever really gets solved.

And Bernie can't?

... No?

You asked a question and I gave an answer.

 

[Volimar]

You people get caught up on the strangest things, I swear.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

I'd say the difference between the two terms is that "SJW," is kind of nebulous and undefined. I've seen "SJW," used to refer to anyone further left than Donald Trump to a very small subset of dumb obnoxious teenagers young adults on Tumblr who post about social justice issues (like not even the majority of teens who post on Tumblr about SJ stuff, just people who post things like "telling people not to drink while pregnant is ableist," or whatever). The word has lost all meaning so it's basically become a catch-all term for anyone who cares about social justice by the majority of people who use it.

Berniebro on the other hand is pretty clearly defined:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/10/here-comes-the-berniebro-bernie-sanders/411070/

That article just reinforces to me that the idea of 'BernieBros' is some high level strawman bullshit taken form. Even worse it is a strawman argument based on facebook posts that no one except the original poster can even know the sincerity of.

However, this is getting away from my real point which is just that generalizing an entire group as part of your rhetoric is the quickest way for me to personally discount their opinion.

 

[The Technomancer]

Look I can give the benefit of the doubt on the quote itself, but comeon Mike don't retweet the goddamn National Review. Optics matter

 

[dehydratedbabies]

Optics

This guy understands politics!

... No?

You asked a question and I gave an answer.

Just spitballing here.

 

[hawk2025]

The new round of arguments I'm hearing is that taking stronger leftist positions is better to increase the bargaining power and getting policies implemented. In that sense, even if Bernie will not be able to implement what he says, it will help more in implementing policies further to the left.


How do people square that logic away with the idea being presented here that electing a woman cannot possibly help with advancing women's rights by itself, simply through the virtue of the signal that electing a woman represents?

 

[q_q]

Bernie Sanders has been a part of Congress since 1991.

That isnt what establishment means.

 

[Thewonandonly]

Why's killer mike being such a fuckboi jk love that dude don't really care about politics even tho I should. I just no trump shouldn't win.

Also if sanders win will they realese run the jewels 3 at the inogeration

 

[Ether_Snake]

This woman thing is so stupid. I can't imagine there are many, if any women out there who were planning on voting for Hillary SOLELY because she is a woman. Much more believeable is the notion that there are democrats out there who agree with both Bernie and Hillary on many issue and the fact that it would be historic to vote for the first female president is enough to tip the scales in her favor. But whenever people reduce that tipping of the scales to JUST voting for her because she is a woman it is insulting to those voters and to Hillary because it reduces everything else she stands for as if it is nothing. As a Bernie supporter it really turns me off when other Bernie supporters do that.

Yeah, why does it have to always be about "solely being a woman" and not her being a woman, on top of every other reasons?

 

[brainchild]

The general idea is that you have a better understanding of what a marginalized group has gone through if you yourself are a member of that marginalized group.

But when your political system is corrupt, there's no guarantee that that fact alone will lead to the candidate serving in the interest of the respective minority.

I think it's a far more salient point to argue that women can be inspired by seeing someone of their gender break down the barriers of sexism and win the presidency. That is actually valuable.

However, when you approach female Bernie supporters saying, "why aren't you voting for Clinton considering that she's a woman", I think it's fair game to point out that a woman is not entitled to votes just because she's a woman. And that was the context behind Killer Mike's statements.

 

[Heavy_D206]

That isnt what establishment means.

Also, Bernie has always been an INDEPENDENT Senator. He battles both Repubs and Dems. He's never been part of the establishment.

One of the biggest reasons I love him.

 

[veloxStrix]

The new round of arguments I'm hearing is that taking stronger leftist positions is better to increase the bargaining power and getting policies implemented. In that sense, even if Bernie will not be able to implement what he says, it will help more in implementing policies further to the left.


How do people square that logic away with the idea being presented here that electing a woman cannot possibly help with advancing woman's rights by itself, simply through the virtue of the signal that electing a woman represents?

The main issue is that logic doesn't square away with itself even.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

are people and sanders really saying it's not ok for a woman to vote for clinton because she is a woman? who gives a shit? some people voted for obama because he was black and some people (many) have been voting for old white guys throughout history because they are white themselves.

identifying with a candidate on multiple levels is ok, including their gender/ethnicity. what's wrong with a woman thinking that clinton might actually understand their plights more due to her being a woman?

absurdity

This woman thing is so stupid. I can't imagine there are many, if any women out there who were planning on voting for Hillary SOLELY because she is a woman. Much more believeable is the notion that there are democrats out there who agree with both Bernie and Hillary on many issue and the fact that it would be historic to vote for the first female president is enough to tip the scales in her favor. But whenever people reduce that tipping of the scales to JUST voting for her because she is a woman it is insulting to those voters and to Hillary because it reduces everything else she stands for as if it is nothing. As a Bernie supporter it really turns me off when other Bernie supporters do that.

Yeah, why does it have to always be about "solely being a woman" and not her being a woman, on top of every other reasons?

Exactly. And "voting for her because she's a woman" is, in reality, actually something more like "voting for her partly because she's a woman and may understand some women's issues better"

 

[Orbis Tabula]

And Bernie can't?



Do you agree with that?

I believe you could have a better understanding because of that. And it's also possible Bernie has a better understanding. I'm just answering your question. That's the logic behind touting your gender.

But when your political system is corrupt, there's no guarantee that that fact alone will lead to the candidate serving in the interest of the respective minority.

I think it's a far more salient point to argue that women can be inspired by seeing someone of their gender break down the barriers of sexism and win the presidency. That is actually valuable.

However, when you approach female Bernie supporters saying, "why aren't you voting for Clinton considering that she's a woman", I think it's fair game to point out that a woman is not entitled to votes just because she's a woman. And that was the context behind Killer Mike's statements.

Fair enough. But, I mean, I didn't say any of that. A guy asked "what's the selling point of 'I'm a woman'" and as near as I can tell, that's what it is. Doesn't mean it's always true or mostly true or never true. That's the selling point.

 

[ivysaur12]

Also, Bernie has always been an INDEPENDENT Senator. He battles both Repubs and Dems. He's never been part of the establishment.

One of the biggest reasons I love him.

He caucuses with Democrats, votes with the Democrats on every procedural matter, has taken money from the DSCC, and generally votes in lock ste with the progressive wing of the Democrat's senatorial caucus.

He's an Independent, but he's not batting Democrats anymore than Ron Wyden is.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

dp

 

[hawk2025]

The main issue is that logic doesn't square away with itself even.

Oh, I agree.

But I'm more wondering how people can rationalize believing in both at the same time.

 

[Timedog]

Man, what a idiotic comment by Killer Mike.

Whether or not it's "true" is beyond irrelevant. But you have to have even the smallest inclination towards the ability to see the forest for the trees to realize that.

 

[TarNaru33]

This isn't happening, and the fact you think it is and dismiss it as "emotional"...

Are you trying to say no one is going to vote Hillary because she is a woman? Because I have a few young cousins who are voting her for just that reason lol.

It is an "emotional" way to vote in my view, since it isn't based on policies of the candidate.

People aren't defaming Bernie supporters by mentioning Bernie bros, they're talking about a specific subset of incredibly obnoxious Bernie supporters.

People aren't defaming all Blacks when they say "thugs" just a specific subset of incredibly violent ones. See where I am going with this? Especially since plenty use it to label all Bernie supporters. You want to sound reasonable? How about using more responsible reasoning in challenging a person's argument rather than labeling them. This isn't specifically at you, since I don't know if you call people Berniebros.

The condescension is on both sides and it is pathetic in my view.

I stand with Bernie on this, though he must be more aware of how/who he supports with his wording.

 

[Bear Force One]

Super tired of Sander's attacks lately. Huge turn off.
Accentuated by his rabid supporters on social media.

This isn't just me either.

 

[Hellwarden]

Honestly, I wish people would attack Bill Clinton's record more.

The guy was honestly not that great of a president.

That said, I don't agree with everything Bernie said here.

 

[veloxStrix]

the forest for the trees

Is there a synonym to this? Like another version so people can mix and match it while constantly using it?

Oh, I agree.

But I'm more wondering how people can rationalize believing in both at the same time.

You might not have noticed it, but people can be pretty silly.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

are people and sanders really saying it's not ok for a woman to vote for clinton because she is a woman? who gives a shit? some people voted for obama because he was black and some people (many) have been voting for old white guys throughout history because they are white themselves.

identifying with a candidate on multiple levels is ok, including their gender/ethnicity. what's wrong with a woman thinking that clinton might actually understand their plights more due to her being a woman?

absurdity





Exactly. And "voting for her because she's a woman" is, in reality, actually something more like "voting for her partly because she's a woman and may understand some women's issues better"

I thought part of this was coming from the fact that there are certain individuals actually attacking female Bernie supporters because they are not supporting Hilary.

Just an anecdotal story, but one of the most outspoken feminists I know has complained about that exact sort of situation at length on multiple occasions.

I haven't followed this entire story enough to know if that is where this entire discussion started, but I have a feeling it is related.

 

[brainchild]

are people and sanders really saying it's not ok for a woman to vote for clinton because she is a woman? who gives a shit? some people voted for obama because he was black and some people (many) have been voting for old white guys throughout history because they are white themselves.

identifying with a candidate on multiple levels is ok, including their gender/ethnicity. what's wrong with a woman thinking that clinton might actually understand their plights more due to her being a woman?

absurdity





Exactly. And "voting for her because she's a woman" is, in reality, actually something more like "voting for her partly because she's a woman and may understand some women's issues better"

No, nobody is vote policing anyone. What Killer Mike WAS saying in context (and Sanders agrees with) is that it's not ok to challenge someone else's vote on the basis of gender. And he's right.

 

[Crocodile]

Are you trying to say no one is going to vote Hillary because she is a woman? Because I have a few young cousins who are voting her for just that reason lol.

It is an "emotional" way to vote in my view, since it isn't based on policies of the candidate.

People aren't defaming all Blacks when they say "thugs" just a specific subset of incredibly violent ones. See where I am going with this? Especially since plenty use it to label all Bernie supporters. You want to sound reasonable? How about using more responsible reasoning in challenging a person's argument rather than labeling them. This isn't specifically at you, since I don't know if you call people Berniebros.

The condescension is on both sides and it is pathetic in my view.

I stand with Bernie on this, though he must be more aware of how/who he supports with his wording.

AW YISSS

I love the part of these sorts of threads where the "plight" of non-marginalized, opt-in groups is compared to the struggle Black people have endured in this country for centuries. Such and apt and appropriate comparison!

Spoiler

/s

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I think you should have probably thought through the way you expressed your point a bit more. But read above.

No, I thought that through. Of course her general political positions matter, but her beeing a woman is the deciding factor for many.

Last week a lot of articles were written about Gloria Steinems controversial comments on Bill Mahers shows, and many tried to explain Steinems and Albrights and generally older generation womens support of Clinton with the fact that they worked for this for the last half a century or even longer, while younger women grew up in a society that already benefitted from the work of these women. And because of that a woman beeing president carries a lot more weight for the older generation than for the younger.
Thats an explanation that makes sense to me.

We had this go both directions.
Steinems and Albrights comments where understood by young women as if they had to vote for Clinton just because she is a woman.
"Shame on Gloria Steinem and Madeleine Albright for implying that we as women should be voting for a candidate based solely on gender,"
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/08/u...ight-hillary-clinton-bernie-sanders.html?_r=0
I'm sure thats not what Steinem or Albright meant, but it was understood that way.

And as a result we got many articles that discussed why this divide between younger and older women exists. I read quite a few of those and what I took from them is that the older generation knows a different fight for womens rights, the younger generationlives in a different world, already benefitting from what women before them have achieved, and therefore these groups view the symbolic value of the first female president differently.
Tell me this isn't an emotional thing.


I thik there is some projection going on in the older generation, when I read stuff like that:

Not that young women only support Sanders because they want to impress boys, but that, especially among the young, "guy stuff" is cool and enviable, whereas "girl stuff" is lame, uncool, and, well, girly. In this primary, Sanders is the guy stuff. Clinton is the girl stuff.

http://www.cosmopolitan.com/politics/news/a53372/gloria-steinem-controversial-comments/
In the first sentence they say young women don't only support Sanders because they "want impress boys", but then they're repeating the exact same narrative, just with different words. This whole "guy stuff", "girl stuff" spiel is extremely stupid.

I've seen so many articles trying to break young women supporting Sanders down in a way that doesn't consider the policies of Bernie Sanders. Why can't they accept that women are actually supporting Sanders because of his positions?
The answer is projection, in my opinion.
I see the female Sanders supporters eager to debate issues(I can't count how many times I've seen this chart listing the donors of Clinton and Sanders on my facebook wall), while its the older generation Clinton supporters who constantly bring Clinton beeing a woman or gender in general into the discussion, which, again, shows that this factor matters more to the older generation.

 

[Theodran]

Are you trying to say no one is going to vote Hillary because she is a woman? Because I have a few young cousins who are voting her for just that reason lol.

It is an "emotional" way to vote in my view, since it isn't based on policies of the candidate.

I don't actually think this would be a target of discussion if it wasn't for people attacking female Bernie supporters for not taking a stance with Hillary because she is a woman, or if the former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright stands on stage next to Hillary, and in front of a large crowd says "There is a special place in Hell for women who don't support Hillary."

 

[Foffy]

In my opinion, most people disagreeing with Sanders do it for the wrong reasons.
They dismiss socialist programs as a pipedream, bad for the economy or bad for freedom.
All that is bullshit. But because everyone is just talking bullshit nobody is talking about the fact that Sanders proposals are actually not very well thought out and very simplistic.
Sanders always says he wants to debate the issues
Unfortunately there is no real debate about the issues because everyone is just repeating the same 30-45 second talking points.
Maybe Sanders should come to Europe and let the social democratic parties rip his plan appart, but i a constructive way, that way he could actually improve on his ideas.

Is your icon one where that character is making that face in agreement or disdain? If the former, I should totally post that as a reply here.

But you're correct. Sanders' issues aren't that he speaks pipedream mysticism or anything of the sort in a "practical" society that denies climate change but believes in Big Boss, but it's that his ideas are not well planned.

If he was a spokesperson to begin a conversation, he's wonderful. If he's the man with the plan, that guy ain't got substance. We should accept single payer and free public college and social rights, and only when we have enough in favor can we move forward to planning it out.

Unfortunately for Sanders, many people in this country won't even have these conversations without grabbing their gun and yeehawing all potential opposition out the door with those commie Mexicans.

 

[ultratruman]

I'd still vote for Hillary, but Sanders isn't doing anything wrong here.

 

[brainchild]

I thought part of this was coming from the fact that there are certain individuals actually attacking female Bernie supporters because they are not supporting Hilary.

Just an anecdotal story, but one of the most outspoken feminists I know has complained about that exact sort of situation at length on multiple occasions.

I haven't followed this entire story enough to know if that is where this entire discussion started, but I have a feeling it is related.

I don't actually think this would be a target of discussion if it wasn't for people attacking female Bernie supporters for not taking a stance with Hillary because she is a woman, or if the former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright stands on stage next to Hillary, and in front of a large crowd says "There is a special place in Hell for women who don't support Hillary."

You guys have it right, and frankly, the context of the quote should be in the OP.

 

[EatinOlives]

"I don't want to be lectured on my support for civil rights," Sanders said as his plane flew from a Washington meeting with civil rights leaders to Las Vegas. "I was a young man, I was there, and I have been there for my entire life."

Quite a few black people in your own state don't quite agree.

The more I listen to him the less I like him. It's decidedly the opposite effect that Bernie usually has.