Bullshit. Just ignore free prescriptions, care for the elderly etc etc, emergency benefit funds because of uk b.s .
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EU- Referendum for the UK..... Neogaf UK are you in or out?
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Mac@NeoGAF
Banned
How can I ignore it when we have to send £8bn a year north to fund it.
Audioboxer
Member
Well said by Sturgeon especially linking back to the nonsense in the independence referendum about our EU place being at risk. Oh the irony.
Pay back for raping of oil and zero scottish investment until Blair.
PdotMichael
Banned
One could argue for what else should a goverment invest its money?
The Sewel convention which is due to be legally enshrined in the Scotland act would prevent any unilateral imposition of a "UK" bill of rights on Scotland.
Mac@NeoGAF
Banned
Invest?
The £8bn is needed to plug the budget gap caused by funding all the free goodies.
Audioboxer
Member
Nuclear weapons, humping America and private land/property investments of course.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Again, not nonsense. The question was asked and answered by the EU Commission. I linked to their letter in this post on the previous page.
Until the last few years we paid more than we got out. Typical right winger selfishness. It's never why can't we have good thing? Its take it away.
Scotland runs a deficit, but so does every part of the U.K. excluding London. The U.K. as a whole runs a deficit (you may have heard about it a bit in the last 8 years)
Pretty sure Scotland's deficit is proportionally smaller than England's as well.
I'm English, and I do hope Scotland stays, but I totally understand why so many Scots want out with shit like this being spread around.
Red Liquorice
Member
I don't believe for a second that we will vote to leave.
Shotgun Kiss
Member
I'm not informed enough about the consequences of either option to have any kind of opinion.
Please; somebody tell me what to think.
Please; somebody tell me what to think.
Audioboxer
Member
Pretty certain Scotland wouldn't have a problem reapplying. Lots of trade and industry worthwhile. Happy for others to disagree with me but the way it was hedged during the referendum was no chance, just like all the arguments over currency.
Lessens have to be learned this time around to campaign positively not negatively.
Mac@NeoGAF
Banned
Hey, you're the ones voting for a party that won't raise taxes to fund services.
Sounds like right wing tory economics 101 to me.
Huw_Dawson
Member
His point about not raising taxes by a penny is fair though - the Tories are very pleased with Sturgeon and her government over taxation. The LDs and Labour (although I don't know if their 1p argument is specifically for education?) are both arguing for small tax rises to pay for more social policies. The SNP has introduced a few good social policies, but they're sticking on this, and agreeing with the Tories. The notion that the SNP are a party of the Left is open to debate. They have the taxation powers and an unequal society - they should be using the first to solve the second. If they don't or won't do that, they do not deserve to be in power in Scotland.
Suppose someone comes over to you and says "these social policies are just populism - what's the SNP really done to tackle inequality and poverty in Scotland?" - what would you say to them?
I'm IN. I was out canvassing this morning and met a number of people taking about Europe though - typically those talking about Europe right now are OUT, though - one chap was very insistent about judicial sovereignty, another about migration.
The issue IN will face is that they're trying to make sure people don't (incorrectly) see this as simply a verdict on the government's migration and economic policy, and that people don't use their vote for leave as purely a conservative knee-jerk about foreigners and flag waving.
With Boris probably coming out as OUT, the other big issue IN will face is having a clear charismatic leadership. Tories will have Johnson, UKIPers will have Farage. So far we have Farron for the Lib Dems, Alan Johnson for Labour and Cameron/Osbourne for the Tories. Farron's great but unknown, I can't see Labour caring enough about the campaign and the split in the Tories might be too great for Cameron to offer any kind of effective leadership. If Clegg wasn't so incredibly hated, he'd be the obvious leader - but he is so he can't be.
CyclopsRock
Member
Re: Scotland and the EU, I think anyone who actually says definitively that they know is talking nonsense. This would be an unprecedented event and therefore it would have an unprecedented outcome. There's no prior case and the EU has demonstrated its... willingness to kinda "make it up as it goes along" before, so even if there were actual, written rules dictating what happens in this event, there's reason to think a loophole would be conveniently found. In short, I dunno what the fuck would happen and I don't think anyone else does (inc the EU Commission and Sturgeon).
Uk universities and students would most likely be expelled from the program. There will probably some leniency for people already abroad.
Audioboxer
Member
Nope not definitely either way, but the problem with the negative campaign was they were so absolute about everything.
SporeCrawler
Member
At least not on terms that are as favorable as a EU membership. that would completely defy the meaning of being a member and.. you know having actual obligations to the community?
yes EU concludes Trade Treaties. Member states only have very minor insight on ongoing discussions etc.
and I completely agree with you. the EU will not allos GB more favorable terms if they leave the EU.
not saying its easy but if you think about the european history of the 19th-20th century (every country thinking they can declare war if they see benefit) the state we are in now is like a miracle.
and no im not talking about a centralistic government but a federal government. so there are lower level government dimensions to care about local issues.
Both campaigns were. Sorry but it's absolute fiction to pretend the No campaign was absolute, the yes campaign wasn't equally as assured that the EU would let them stay in, they could use the pound as their national currency, and the oil market would support the spending plans. That's just politics - nobody ever, ever campaigns on a "we hope this will work but it might not".
QuicheFontaine
Member
You just said the possibility of Scotland losing its EU membership was "nonsense", you bloomin' Sith!
No one thinks the SNP is left wing, they're a centrist party. You'd be right to say they are /more/ left wing than Labour and the Conservatives though.
They 1p tax increase is ridiculous. A stop gap to shut up the party, with no real way to bring about change. We need to be able to reform council tax and make changes to each band of the tax rate other than setting all of them 1p up or down.
They 1p tax increase is ridiculous. A stop gap to shut up the party, with no real way to bring about change. We need to be able to reform council tax and make changes to each band of the tax rate other than setting all of them 1p up or down.
'We' might not, but there might be just enough euro sceptics and xenophobes with immigration at the forefront of their minds to swing it.
Audioboxer
Member
The pound thing was a definite.
I do veer heavily towards thinking it would have been fine for generally obvious reasons. But I will admit it wasn't 100% until tested in reality.
The smear campaigns, personal attacks, onslaught of negativity and the vow just have me incredibly jaded when it comes to oppositions arguing why the other is worse and not arguing their positives.
It's not. The Scottish Government can only raise the basic rate of taxation, i.e any move they make cannot be progressive, they can't raise the rate for high earners, or middle earners only. They can just raise the rate for everyone. You're essentially asking them to make a regressive tax move to prove how progressive they are. I.e fucking madness. And I say that as someone who is actively campaigning against the local SNP MSP candidate (because he's a lying snivelling cunt)
Power to set Scottish rate for Scottish taxpayers
(1)The Scottish Parliament may by resolution (a “Scottish rate resolution”set the Scottish rate for the purpose of calculating the rates of income tax to be paid by Scottish taxpayers.
(2)Section 6(2B) of the Income Tax Act 2007 provides for the calculation of those rates.
(3)A Scottish rate resolution applies—
(a)for only one tax year, and
(b)for the whole of that year.
(4)A Scottish rate resolution may specify only one rate.
(5)The Scottish rate must be a whole number or half a whole number.
(6)A Scottish rate resolution—
(a)must specify the tax year for which it applies,
(b)must be made before the start of that tax year, and
(c)must not be made more than 12 months before the start of that year.
(7)If a Scottish rate resolution is cancelled before the start of the tax year for which it is to apply—
(a)the Income Tax Acts have effect for that year as if the resolution had never been passed, and
(b)the resolution may be replaced by another Scottish rate resolution.
(8)Standing orders must provide that only a member of the Scottish Government may move a motion for a Scottish rate resolution.
QuicheFontaine
Member
The pound is a freely tradable currency, of course you could still use it. A currency union was certainly not guaranteed, and the Yes camp frequently failed to make the distinction.
This thread is giving me serious nostalgia for the Indyref OT, but I think we may be veering slightly off topic at this point.
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
Boris wants out, BBC understands http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politi...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central
Frankfurter
Member
To a certain extent: yes of course, just like Switzerland or Norway do.
You might wanna give me some links for the steel/creative industry thing, as I am not quite sure what this is about.
ultratruman
Banned
RIP to your career, Johnson.
There are some really dangerous ideologues in the Conservative party.
It's a weird play from him as it's an uphill battle and if he loses his chances of the Tory leadership are gone IMO.
It's a very risky move by Boris, if out loses then surely it'll be a major black mark in his political career and would significantly decrease his chances of that PM spot he wants. It would have been safer to just say he backs the Conservative party's position or something else non-committal.
Edit.
Me and Kuros on the same wavelength.
Audioboxer
Member
Stuff like this from IDS just shows what a bell end he is
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624409
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35624409
most the people at the company I work for seem to be for staying in. (sheffield here) this is all anedotal though. it does seem to be a class divide more than anything and the people who are less well off looking for someone to take out their frustrations on (rightfully so) unfortunately the media and our government seem to have pointed them at the EU to take the heat off the Tories.
NekoFever
Member
Doesn't this pretty much decide the next Tory leader? If we stay it's Osborne; if we leave it's Johnson.
I'm keen to see how low they can go if they're playing the terrorism card on day one.
Out.
I find it absolutely unthinkable that the land that invented parliamentary democracy has surrendered it. I don't think there's any price in the world I'd be willing to pay to sacrifice the ability to hold people with power to account for their actions. I also think a lack of accountability and transparency necessarily leads to abuses of power and eventually, autocracy.
At the end of the day, I'm an Aussie, and not from the UK. So it's not up to me. I just hope that you guys do leave so you guys can open up some stronger trade ties to countries like mine. We share so much, we're family in almost every sense of the word and it sucks that we don't trade anything except backpackers.
I find it absolutely unthinkable that the land that invented parliamentary democracy has surrendered it. I don't think there's any price in the world I'd be willing to pay to sacrifice the ability to hold people with power to account for their actions. I also think a lack of accountability and transparency necessarily leads to abuses of power and eventually, autocracy.
At the end of the day, I'm an Aussie, and not from the UK. So it's not up to me. I just hope that you guys do leave so you guys can open up some stronger trade ties to countries like mine. We share so much, we're family in almost every sense of the word and it sucks that we don't trade anything except backpackers.
Uphill battle? We don't know that do we.
Not necessarily. His support is mostly among the grassroots, who are for the most part anti-EU. He'd need them to get anywhere in the leadership election post referendum.
ultratruman
Banned
Absolutely, as others above you replied. Linking arms with Farage and Galloway is not a good look for anyone hoping to be PM in 2020.
Candidates that rely solely partisan grass roots support, like Corbyn, will struggle to be seen as electable. Johnson's decision to double down on that support, and publicly disregard the man who has lead his party into government twice, is a grave mistake.
Neither is being seen to be close to Cameron.
The Incarnation
Member
It's a bit like when Cameron said bombing Syria would make us safer.
QuicheFontaine
Member
It's almost like he genuinely believes that Britain would be better off out, and is campaigning for that regardless of the potential negative impact on his political career!
Visualante2
Member
I don't understand why Grayling is getting shelf space alongside other ministers in the vote leave camp. Shuffled out of the cabinet but still squirming for attention propping up the other work and pensions and justice ministers who replaced him.
Lightning rod for unpopular decisions. It just seems to bounce off him.
PJV3
Member
That's me voting to stay in the EU then.
I'd rather vote based on the facts rather then vote because I dislike a MP.
LSE blog
Lies, damned lies and statistics on the UKs EU membership
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2...lies-and-statistics-on-the-uks-eu-membership/
Lies, damned lies and statistics on the UKs EU membership
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2...lies-and-statistics-on-the-uks-eu-membership/
PJV3
Member
In the end it is a gamble, i have reasons as a leftie to vote for exit, and reasons to fear how events can spiral out of control.
I despise Boris, i think it is a perfectly valid position to hold.
No government can provide state aid to protect an industry thus creating one members industry be anti competitive against the rest. France did it for example did it with the games industry and blocked attempts for the UK to do the same.
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