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[zumphry]

This is highly debatable and should not by any means be off limits for discussion in an honest and open forum. For just one example, we know that some people who are restricted from heterosexual relationships, such as prisoners, sometimes adopt new sexual practices and change their sexual orientation to satisfy their sexual appetites. I'm just stating fact, not commenting on the morality of such acts. Also, don't many gender theorists (who I personally disagree with) state that gender can be fluid and ever-changing?

lol right under a post about how GAF is and has been LGBT friendly

 

[Sàmban]

(removed)

 

[Dice]

I feel like the entire American culture as a whole, as well as all of the internet under its sphere of influence, has become astoundingly rife with enmity. It started kicking in around 2010, but has gone completely off the wall bonkers the last few years. It has only been in these recent times where I have at times literally done everything I possibly could to avoid, keep my hands off of, and defuse aggression but had it just keep relentlessly coming at me if I said anything not in 100% total celebration of the views of a particular person I was having a discussion with. On forums it can be all the worse as you get random passers by forming into spontaneous lynch mobs.

In view of this, I can understand where a person like Kevin is coming from, but I still think it is a bit of an oversensitive reaction. Good dialogue can be hard to come by, but there reaches a point where you have to realize the enmity has enveloped the larger portion of society and people are subconsciously trapped in the adopted social patterns. The only way to overcome it is to patiently find the good and cultivate it; persist in being an example of peaceable interaction. Not all will have the eyes to see it, but the responses I've seen to various personalities rising to fame demonstrate a present thirst for it.

 

[Papa]

lol right under a post about how GAF is and has been LGBT friendly

I don’t see how he was being LGBT unfriendly.

 

[Papa]

I feel like the entire American culture as a whole, as well as all of the internet under its sphere of influence, has become astoundingly rife with enmity. It started kicking in around 2010, but has gone completely off the wall bonkers the last few years. It has only been in these recent times where I have at times literally done everything I possibly could to avoid, keep my hands off of, and defuse aggression but had it just keep relentlessly coming at me if I said anything not in 100% total celebration of the views of a particular person I was having a discussion with. On forums it can be all the worse as you get random passers by forming into spontaneous lynch mobs.

In view of this, I can understand where a person like Kevin is coming from, but I still think it is a bit of an oversensitive reaction. Good dialogue can be hard to come by, but there reaches a point where you have to realize the enmity has enveloped the larger portion of society and people are subconsciously trapped in the adopted social patterns. The only way to overcome it is to patiently find the good and cultivate it; persist in being an example of peaceable interaction. Not all will have the eyes to see it, but the responses I've seen to various personalities rising to fame demonstrate a present thirst for it.

Kevin is an odd one. I remember he copped a couple of temporary bans in the early days of NeoNeoGAF for posting similar things to what he’s complaining about in the OP. I’m not saying he’s a troll but he has been very inconsistent in his opinions.

(Hope you get your stuff sorted and come back, Kev).

 

[zumphry]

I don’t see how he was being LGBT unfriendly.

Any forum that’s LGBT friendly shouldn’t even consider entertaining the ‘sexuality is a choice’ bullshit. Sexuality can be fluid, and acts of sexuality can be a choice, but nobody who actually is an ally to the community would posit that sexuality itself is a choice

Edit: don’t get it twisted. Sexuality and gender are two different things. You’re not equipped to have a conversation about either if you can’t even differentiate between the two.

 

[EviLore]

Any forum that’s LGBT friendly shouldn’t even consider entertaining the ‘sexuality is a choice’ bullshit. Sexuality can be fluid, and acts of sexuality can be a choice, but nobody who actually is an ally to the community would posit that sexuality itself is a choice

Scientific evidence indicates the whole thing is non-binary and fluid. There is nothing anti-LGBT about that, and in fact the science of non-binary sexual orientation helped establish the legitimacy of LGBT rights.

Go read some books or fact-based internet, angry person. Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

 

[5secondrulesucks]

hate to see you go but love to watch you leave

 

[zumphry]

Scientific evidence indicates the whole thing is non-binary and fluid. There is nothing anti-LGBT about that, and in fact the science of non-binary sexual orientation helped establish the legitimacy of LGBT rights.

Go read some books or fact-based internet, angry person. Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

Wow, the Kinsey scale. That’s a new one.

 

[VAL0R]

That said, as a gay guy I've hesitated to post anything here due to the quoted above. I want people to have their say but not at my expense, I want people to debate issues but not call into question my right to be treated equally. I'm a minority and as such I have empathy for other minorities, but I don't see that empathy reflected in this community.

What does it mean that I ought not say anything "at your expense" or "call into question" your right to "be treated equally." Both those statements are pretty vague and can range from "don't hatefully persecute me" to "don't say anything that offends me or calls into question my sexual ethics." The former is a legitimate appeal to being treated like a dignified human being the latter is just irrational entitlement.

 

[Papa]

Any forum that’s LGBT friendly shouldn’t even consider entertaining the ‘sexuality is a choice’ bullshit. Sexuality can be fluid, and acts of sexuality can be a choice, but nobody who actually is an ally to the community would posit that sexuality itself is a choice

Edit: don’t get it twisted. Sexuality and gender are two different things. You’re not equipped to have a conversation about either if you can’t even differentiate between the two.

I’m not an “ally” as you would define it (subservient mollycoddler). However, I do believe that we can simultaneously question the nature of sexuality and treat non-heterosexual people with dignity and respect.

P.S. cya

 

[Deleted member 12837]

Scientific evidence indicates the whole thing is non-binary and fluid. There is nothing anti-LGBT about that, and in fact the science of non-binary sexual orientation helped establish the legitimacy of LGBT rights.

Go read some books or fact-based internet, angry person. Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale

I don't really think VAL0R was referring to the Kinsey Scale when making a comment about how a perfectly straight male suddenly "becomes gay" by engaging in sexual activities with other men in prison, though.

Engaging in homosexual behavior, especially only under certain conditions, doesn't turn someone into a homosexual, nor does it serve as definitive proof of their sexuality.

I’m not an “ally” as you would define it (subservient mollycoddler).

P.S. cya

Was that really necessary?

 

[Papa]

I don't really think VAL0R was referring to the Kinsey Scale when making a comment about how a perfectly straight male suddenly "becomes gay" by engaging in sexual activities with other men in prison, though.

Engaging in homosexual behavior, especially only under certain conditions, doesn't turn someone into a homosexual, nor does it serve as definitive proof of their sexuality.



Was that really necessary?

Yes, because “ally” is used as just another weasel word nowadays.

 

[EviLore]

I don't really think VAL0R was referring to the Kinsey Scale when making a comment about how a perfectly straight male suddenly "becomes gay" by engaging in sexual activities with other men in prison, though.

Engaging in homosexual behavior, especially only under certain conditions, doesn't turn someone into a homosexual, nor does it serve as definitive proof of their sexuality.

He wasn't, yeah. And correct, it doesn't serve as definitive proof of anything. I was pointing to the general non-binary nature of sexual orientation lol. It can be ambiguous and it's complicated. Hello, LGBTQUIA+? Remember that? Fluid? Non-binary? Gene expression + environmental conditions, spectrum of influences and outcomes, like everything about humanity?

Let's move on.

 

[Papa]

He wasn't, yeah. And correct, it doesn't serve as definitive proof of anything. I was pointing to the general non-binary nature of sexual orientation lol. It can be ambiguous and it's complicated. Hello, LGBTQUIA+? Remember that? Fluid? Non-binary? Gene expression + environmental conditions, spectrum of influences and outcomes, like everything about humanity?

Let's move on.

Wtf EviLore is alt-right now???

 

[Dice]

I think you missed what he just said.

 

[Dr. Claus]

I think you missed what he just said.

If you are referring to matt, I think they are being sarcastic. Pointing out how the far-left tends to overuse the claim that someone is alt-right for not sharing their specific viewpoints on gender/sexuality/what-have-you.

 

[VAL0R]

It's ridiculous to me that people are implying Neogaf is somehow hostile to LGBT folks. People are mistaking the absence of unanimous, unquestioning praise of all things LGBT with hostility.

 

[Dice]

If you are referring to matt, I think they are being sarcastic. Pointing out how the far-left tends to overuse the claim that someone is alt-right for not sharing their specific viewpoints on gender/sexuality/what-have-you.

Too much Poe's law applying to the internet these days for sarcasm to work outside of good friends.

 

[Papa]

Too much Poe's law applying to the internet these days for sarcasm to work outside of good friends.

We aren’t good friends???

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

If you are referring to matt, I think they are being sarcastic

So, are we being sarcastic or are we having rational discourse? I'm amused at the likes of TrainedRage and BANGS trolling from hither to yon, then asking why asking why members aren't responding to them in a serious manner. How long are we going to pretend that all you claiming to be on "the left" while constantly handwaving Trump are being genuine?

 

[TrainedRage]

So, are we being sarcastic or are we having rational discourse? I'm amused at the likes of Trained Rage and BANGS trolling from hither to yon, then asking why asking why members aren't responding to them in a serious manner. How long are we going to pretend that all you claiming to be on "the left" while constantly handwaving Trump are being genuine?

At least @ me if you want to talk about me. I think I make it pretty obvious when i'm "trolling" as you say.

If you have something you want to talk to me about go for it. When people are open about having an honest discussion i'm all ears.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

At least @ me if you want to talk about me.

FTFY buddy!

I think I make it pretty obvious when i'm "trolling" as you say.

I think that with the number of ESL members on this board you could make it more obvious.

When people are open about having an honest discussion i'm all ears.

 

[TrainedRage]

FTFY buddy!

I think that with the number of ESL members on this board you could make it more obvious.

See you don't have too be all serious either. It's kinda refreshing right?

 

[TannerDemoz]

Good luck OP. I've disagreed with a lot of your opinions but I hope you achieve what you want to achieve. You're making the right move to invest your time into something else and it's never too late!

 

[Cato]

Edit: deleted. not my problem to solve.

 

[Lanrutcon]

What happened to this forum?

A poll without Thor: Ragnarok as an option?!

Standards, people.

 

[Bill O'Rights]

Identity politics are not new, they've just exponentially increased. Even from a tribalistic point of view. If you take something which is a point of unification, say a forum for followers of catholicism or a sports team. Now it stands to reason (excluding trolls), that you would get a very specific set of users/members signing up to discuss a shared passion. But even there, there are very partisan divisions despite such a strong focus on a commonality.


The on-demand and instant nature of communication has somewhat diminished the need for an introspective debate on how best to convey certain points in a respectful yet firm manner. Gone are the days when discourses amongst peers were via letter, the age of modern philosophy, you might say. These days are about torching something, watching and fuelling the inferno then walking away when the flames die down.


Furthermore the whole polarisation issue has gone way past any sensible threshold. I've seen the horsehoe theory being mentioned more and more at the moment. Which is equally causing more outrage between far left and far right. It seems as though the far leftist perception of this is meaning the core policies are similar. But what they fail to realise is that people are using the theory as a metaphor for the rhetoric and arguments. Most people are just fed up of having both sides encroaching on every topic. Don't support #meToo you're a mysognist and sexist. You think the new battlefield characters look garish and out of place, the same. You think a scene in a video game trailer was cringey and fan service, you're homophobic. You want to legitimately discuss immigration control, you're alt-right. Similarly if you want a female character in a game you're virtue signalling, or you want tighter cultural integration you're an idealist or loony leftist. It's exhausting.


With regards to the OP, we do change some topic titles but some are not easy to change in a concise way. So we have to rely on good opening posts. We can always edit the opening post to provide more clarity. I think people have also forgotten |OT| can be just for fun and these threads drive communities as well. Just some light hearted topics or throwaway topics are needed. Maybe some people can start some of the old topics. Favourite crisps etc.


Also, sometimes it may look like an obnoxious reply is floating round a thread and mods aren't doing anything. I assure you this isn't the case. Sometimes we have to chat amongst ourselves to be fair and provide context to avoid a situation where people are treated unfairly.

 

[Cato]

Identity politics are not new

No its not. And Horseshoe is real.

The only difference between the totalitarian left and the supremacy right is just which demographic they want to send to the gulags.
Did I just prove your theory of horseshoe and outrage? Or did I just illustrate how I just made things worse?
Can't really tell, honestly. The world really needs a reset.

 

[strange headache]

Godspeed Kevin.

Sometimes it's better to clean up your own mess, before engaging in these kinds of discussions. More often than not, people tend to project their own frustrations and insecurities upon others, hence why they take these discussions way too personal. Reasoned debate is only possible if people manage to keep a certain distance and don't get too emotionally involved.

And even if we're pretty certain that we are right, we must accept that there will always be people who think otherwise. No amount of talking and discussing will change that fact. The best we can hope for if cultivating mutual understanding. I may not like other people's opinions, but at least I can try to understand why they think like that without judging them on a personal level.

Hence why I think that some of the worst kinds of comments that I've come across recently are the "YOU ARE ALL EVIL FOR HAVING THAT OPINION" or "NEOGAF IS A FASCIST HELLHOLE NOW" or "PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED TO SAY 'X', THAT IS NOT A GOOD LOOK" type of replies.

Judging people like that is not only incredibly damaging to a healthy discussion, but also negates any chance of maybe influencing somebody's views. Human beings are incredibly complex and cannot ever be narrowed down to a single comment in some random thread. How people are on this forum is not necessarily how they are in real life and I think many people have forgotten that the internet is not real.

Anyhows, I'll stop babbling. The quest for self improvement is some of the most important things we can do in our lives and I really hope you find what you're looking for. Even if you won't reach all the way, just remember that getting there is just as important as being there.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

I don't see how Gaf is unfriendly to LGBT. Please explain that. I am really not seeing it.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

No its not. And Horseshoe is real.

The only difference between the totalitarian left and the supremacy right is just which demographic they want to send to the gulags.
Did I just prove your theory of horseshoe and outrage? Or did I just illustrate how I just made things worse?
Can't really tell, honestly. The world really needs a reset.

Can you give me some ambient...ambien before class starts?

 

[mckmas8808]

This is highly debatable and should not by any means be off limits for discussion in an honest and open forum. For just one example, we know that some people who are restricted from heterosexual relationships, such as prisoners, sometimes adopt new sexual practices and change their sexual orientation to satisfy their sexual appetites. I'm just stating fact, not commenting on the morality of such acts. Also, don't many gender theorists (who I personally disagree with) state that gender can be fluid and ever-changing?

And this is where the danger comes in. If someone that is Trans tells you that what they are isn't debateable are you willing to "virtually" shake their hand and move on and respect them? Or will it have to drag on? Will they have to debate with you "who" they really are?

 

[Dr. Claus]

So, are we being sarcastic or are we having rational discourse? I'm amused at the likes of TrainedRage and BANGS trolling from hither to yon, then asking why asking why members aren't responding to them in a serious manner. How long are we going to pretend that all you claiming to be on "the left" while constantly handwaving Trump are being genuine?

I believe you are smart enough to understand the context of most posts that are being sarcastic or tongue-in-cheek and which ones are meant as serious discussion.

 

[RubxQub]

I personally find that I'm willing to have an open conversation with anyone about any subject as long as they're open to actually talking about it.

I find that because of the internet, people are able to find the bubbles they want to stay in and are able to be fed what they want to hear in any frequency they want to absorb it. This is true for left/right, gay/straight, vax/anti-vax, race....etc etc etc.

These subjects are polarizing. And often include people who have suffered and embraced welcoming communities.

It takes a truly stable and emotionally in control person to have a "debate" with people who are potentially hostile or potentially completely uninterested in engaging in actual discussion and it just becomes a tit for tat trading of points so each person can feel superior.

I believe I have informed opinions, and I admit there are subjects where I just don't know wtf I'm talking about but engage in any way as a method to try and get informed.

GAF is a place that isn't really a safe space for any one opinion. I kind of love that, and have always loved that. It's just a free for all of people with all kinds of opinions and perspectives and histories that are contributing to a common conversation.

I've learned a lot of shit from being here.

I think the OT right now might be dominated by a lot of these kinds of social justice subjects...and admittedly I generally don't like those kinds of threads because I assume it's just a stalemate by default. I get why it happens, those subjects are on the tips of the tongue by a lot of people these days, and people who feel oppressed rightfully want to speak out about it. I get it, and I sympathize and empathize with it. I'll try and engage from time to time to see who might be willing to actually have a conversation and isn't just trying to beat their opinion into others.

I just think this place is what you make of it. If you want this place to be a place that's wholly accepting of a specific mindset or opinion, I don't think you'll ever be happy here. If you embrace that this place will always be a collective of people who differing mindsets, and you trust that it's a place where healthy conversation is encouraged and dissenting opinions aren't silenced...I think you'll be happy.

I'm pretty happy here.

 

[VAL0R]

And this is where the danger comes in. If someone that is Trans tells you that what they are isn't debateable are you willing to "virtually" shake their hand and move on and respect them? Or will it have to drag on? Will they have to debate with you "who" they really are?

I am willing to be friends with anyone. I would give a trans person a virtual handshake or a real handshake, as all people are, in my opinion, God's children, and share a common human dignity of immense value. I don't have to agree with someone's sexual ethics to love them. I think trans people posting here are adults, not fragile children, who can speak for themselves and need not be protected from opposing viewpoints. If there is a thread discussing the nature of sexual identity and sexual ethics in which topics like transgender theory is discussed I may, respectfully, share my views.

If a trans person said transgender theory "isn't debatable", they would be just as factually wrong as if I said, "Christianity isn't debatable." Believe me that as a devout Catholic when I say the veracity of the claims of Christianity are just as foundational to my identity and worldview as gender claims of transgender theory are to a trans person's. It is a forum after all, for discussion to take place, whereby a large group of people may share, discuss and even debate ideas. So long as people are expressing their sincerely held views in accordance with their conscience, I don't mind at all if they disagree or debate me on issues that are of immense personal value to myself, even ones I find sacred. It's when the needless insults and baseless accusations start flying, where worthwhile dialogue breaks down.

 

[GAFDooMsDaY]

Great thread. I feel like the off topic forum have switched from fun thread topics to mainly political topics with some spin to make fun of "the lefties" and it ends up a haven for the same strong opinionated republicans we see on the forum to high five eachother without any real discourse. This is what I see atleast .

 

[Lionel Richie]

I hope you get some help OP, depression nearly took my life all those years ago but I'm still here and I definitely lived through some great stuff and I'm so glad I allowed myself that. I hope when you come back the level of discussion in a lot of threads is up significantly and you see the amount of positivity in this thread.

To me, any possible issues with GAF right now are inevitable with how shaken up this community was and frankly to be even still up with some respectable amount of posters is astonishing considering the clusterfuck that was the end of 2017. I do think things can only get better and even if they don't, hey, it's not like we can go any lower than female Link thread levels of eldritch nightmare horrificness. The sense of comradery is definitely up from what it was so that's a good sign.

 

[lil puff]

I'm also all for more light-hearted topics. Sometimes I have to take a few days away from here and come back when my mind has cleared. It's bad enough that I have acquaintances that go back and forth on these same subjects everytime we get together. It gets fatiguing.

I also oddly enjoy pooping etiquette threads.

Wish the OP well. Sometimes it's good to step away. I wish I could step away from this damn job I have.

 

[Dunki]

I haven't posted here since the exodus but I come back every now and then to see how things are going. In all honesty I dislike the overbearing moderation style of 'the other place', at times it feels more constricting than OldNeoGAF was. Conversely, I appreciate the sentiment here that everyone can express an opinion, even if it's unpopular, without being branded with a warning strip.

That said, as a gay guy I've hesitated to post anything here due to the quoted above. I want people to have their say but not at my expense, I want people to debate issues but not call into question my right to be treated equally. I'm a minority and as such I have empathy for other minorities, but I don't see that empathy reflected in this community.

Honestly I would not worry about this and if you want equality you will certainly get it. But equality means also to be criticized and an open discussion about every topic. As for me I will treat everyone equaly based on race, gender or sexuality but you also do not get a minority or victim bonus. I personally will talk to you like I will talk to everyone without insulting people but also go against ideologies and group thinking like cults (as an example modern Feminism)

Attacking people personally will fast result in a ban here but not attacking ideologies or opinions you may or may not believe in. To tackle difficult issues I believe that we need to be honest very honest and the truth or honesty about your own views will also be harsh and hurtful to some people. So please share your opinions and views as harsh they may be without attacking people on a personal level.

 

[mckmas8808]

I am willing to be friends with anyone. I would give a trans person a virtual handshake or a real handshake, as all people are, in my opinion, God's children, and share a common human dignity of immense value. I don't have to agree with someone's sexual ethics to love them. I think trans people posting here are adults, not fragile children, who can speak for themselves and need not be protected from opposing viewpoints. If there is a thread discussing the nature of sexual identity and sexual ethics in which topics like transgender theory is discussed I may, respectfully, share my views.

If a trans person said transgender theory "isn't debatable", they would be just as factually wrong as if I said, "Christianity isn't debatable." Believe me that as a devout Catholic when I say the veracity of the claims of Christianity are just as foundational to my identity and worldview as gender claims of transgender theory are to a trans person's. It is a forum after all, for discussion to take place, whereby a large group of people may share, discuss and even debate ideas. So long as people are expressing their sincerely held views in accordance with their conscience, I don't mind at all if they disagree or debate me on issues that are of immense personal value to myself, even ones I find sacred. It's when the needless insults and baseless accusations start flying, where worthwhile dialogue breaks down.

The only problem with comparing Trans people to religion is that one is completely a learned philosophy/way of life. The other isn't. It's just who the person is. They can obviously choose to ignore how they feel inside, but the feeling is there none the less. Being a Christian is purely a choice. You literally have to accept baptism in the name of Christ in order to be a Christian. You also have to learn about Christianity.

On the other hand being apart of the LGBT community is something that a person just is. It may be confusing and it's not binary, but the person knows something about themselves is different than the general population. There's a reason why suicide rates are so much higher for the Trans community. They aren't just making things up in their heads. Young kids have displayed and shown that without it being a learned behavior, they are different from their peers. That isn't a choice. Religion is a choice for good reason.

 

[VAL0R]

The only problem with comparing Trans people to religion is that one is completely a learned philosophy/way of life. The other isn't. It's just who the person is. They can obviously choose to ignore how they feel inside, but the feeling is there none the less. Being a Christian is purely a choice. You literally have to accept baptism in the name of Christ in order to be a Christian. You also have to learn about Christianity.

On the other hand being apart of the LGBT community is something that a person just is. It may be confusing and it's not binary, but the person knows something about themselves is different than the general population. There's a reason why suicide rates are so much higher for the Trans community. They aren't just making things up in their heads. Young kids have displayed and shown that without it being a learned behavior, they are different from their peers. That isn't a choice. Religion is a choice for good reason.

I think you are oversimplifying things a bit. A person may find themselves experiencing homosexual desire without choosing to do so, agreed. But beyond the desire itself, the entire gay lifestyle, like any lifestyle, is composed of countless choices and acts of the will. Perhaps a man experiencing these attractions will decide they are not good and will choose to remain celibate, as a large number of religious people with same-sex attraction do. I know a man who does this very thing. Or perhaps a man will decide that these attractions are morally neutral and that he can indulge in them and chooses to do so. He seeks a partner, a choice. He decides to present more feminine, a choice. And so on. These are all choices. We are not our sexual appetites. My sexual desire isn't what I "just [am]." It's merely one small aspect of who I am.

On the other hand, is my being a Christian "purely a choice," as you say? No, I don't think so. I can choose to eat pizza instead of ice cream, but I can not choose to stop believing that Jesus is the son of God. Can you choose to stop believing that the world is round? Our beliefs don't work like that. Of course as a Christian I do engage in countless choices and acts of the will on my faith journey. I go to mass, a choice. I receive the Eucharist, read the scriptures and so on, all choices. But really, my faith is not a choice for me. I feel I cannot do other than to believe and because I believe I see this as a gift from God, that I did not earn.

I do think there are actions we can take that will help us to change our beliefs, but I don't have time to ramble on now. I'm at work...

 

[Dunki]

I think you are oversimplifying things a bit. A person may find themselves experiencing homosexual desire without choosing to do so, agreed. But beyond the desire itself, the entire gay lifestyle, like any lifestyle, is composed of countless choices and acts of the will. Perhaps a man experiencing these attractions will decide they are not good and will choose to remain celibate, as a large number of religious people with same-sex attraction do. I know a man who does this very thing. Or perhaps a man will decide that these attractions are morally neutral and that he can indulge in them and chooses to do so. He seeks a partner, a choice. He decides to present more feminine, a choice. And so on. These are all choices. We are not our sexual appetites. My sexual desire isn't what I "just [am]." It's merely one small aspect of who I am.

On the other hand, is my being a Christian "purely a choice," as you say? No, I don't think so. I can choose to eat pizza instead of ice cream, but I can not choose to stop believing that Jesus is the son of God. Can you choose to stop believing that the world is round? Our beliefs don't work like that. Of course as a Christian I do engage in countless choices and acts of the will on my faith journey. I go to mass, a choice. I receive the Eucharist, read the scriptures and so on, all choices. But really, my faith is not a choice for me. I feel I cannot do other than to believe and because I believe I see this as a gift from God, that I did not earn.

I do think there are actions we can take that will help us to change our beliefs, but I don't have time to ramble on now. I'm at work...

The point is that you are not born as a Christian but rather joined an ideology at some point that fits your belive and morals. Religion is something you have chosen. Sexuality is something more fluid. While you were born with a preference due to experince it can change example being hetero in being Bisexual but in the end it is not something you have chosen.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Being a Christian is purely a choice. You literally have to accept baptism in the name of Christ in order to be a Christian. You also have to learn about Christianity.

Is it a choice even if you're raised like that without much of an option to do anything otherwise until you're at least into your mid teens? Not sure it's that clear cut. Then there's cultural heritage as well, it's hard to break free from your sole reality when something is that deep-seated into who you are.

 

[Dunki]

Is it a choice even if you're raised like that without much of an option to do anything otherwise until you're at least into your mid teens? Not sure it's that clear cut. Then there's cultural heritage as well, it's hard to break free from your sole reality when something is that deep-seated into who you are.

Then it is being forced upon you but you are still not born as a christian, jew, muslim etc.

 

[EviLore]

All sounds highly ambiguous and deeply complex to me.

Probably best to...hmmm...take nothing for granted and assume everyone is speaking genuinely and that everyone matters on an individual human level.

Then maybe, I dunno, pshaw, stay mutually respectful and talk it out!

 

[ilfait]

I made a "Schulische Ausbildung"

Dunki, you nasty.

Cya Kiev Keene... fucking commie.

 

[ilfait]

Kevin is an odd one. I remember he copped a couple of temporary bans in the early days of NeoNeoGAF for posting similar things to what he’s complaining about in the OP. I’m not saying he’s a troll but he has been very inconsistent in his opinions.

(Hope you get your stuff sorted and come back, Kev).

If he has been inconsistent, and I can't say that I've seen any evidence that he has been, isn't that what a real thinking human does as he discusses, and forms and reforms his opinions and behaviour? If you're implying that he's uncommonly hypocritical and lacks self awareness, I really doubt it.

 

[LegendOfKage]

Then it is being forced upon you but you are still not born as a christian, jew, muslim etc.

But would you say that people are "born gay" or "born straight," then? I wouldn't. I don't believe your sexual preference is a choice, but it is something that develops naturally later in life. In that sense, it's a "choice" that is out of your hands. The idea that you can't "choose" to believe or not believe in God either is perhaps more similar than it sounds at first.

I should also say that the exchange yourself, mckmas, and valor are having is a great example of the kind of respectful conversation about serious topics that I like to see here, and you've all made some good points.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Then it is being forced upon you but you are still not born as a christian, jew, muslim etc.

True, but I'm not sure there's much of a difference if you don't really have a say in who you are until you're probably, well, who you are. Homophobia is such a complex issue because a significant amount of homophobic people are not effectively choosing to be that way (especially in places like Russia or muslim countries). You and me and pretty much everyone in this thread condemns homophobic behavior, but we don't have any way to fight against it unless we kill half the population in the world. Sadly being gay will carry the possibility of bad consequences for at the very least a handful of generations to come, as we are right now LGBT people and people that hate them are pretty much symmetrical parts in our society and honestly I can't see a fix for it.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

I don't believe your sexual preference is a choice, but it is something that develops naturally later in life. In that sense, it's a "choice" that is out of your hands.

How can you simultaneously not be born that way and not choose something?