Neuromancer
Member
Can you give me some links in that case?
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Kotaku: Sony is working on a PS4.5; briefing devs on plans for a more powerful PS4
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
Is it really about the console being as good as all others or the fact that the console will get great game support for 5+ years? I think it's the latter.
I doubt Sony would release a new model every year (it would be really silly/"Sega-like"), and on top of this, you wouldn't have to upgrade if the original models are getting the exact same game support.
TetraGenesis
Member
People keep saying this. It makes no sense. The breakout box is included in every headset purchase. Why would they bother adding that to the console proper? Just to add to heat? Power consumption? Redundancy?
People in the know would not be referring to this as "PS4.5" because they added an image splitter to the console.
LordOfChaos
Member
The more I think about this the more I want this only to be a 4K/VR optimized PS4, with the regular PS4 left as the lead platform, if they release the 4.5 at all. Having to worry about a shoddy back port like the old 3DS is now seeing isn't what the most current generation of consoles should be about.
If it's a glorified upscaller that lets you get current levels of PS4 games in VR and 4K, with the regular PS4 still being the developer focus, that's fine. If it's a New PS4 in the Nintendo sense of the word with exclusive games and crappily running Old 3DS games, no to that.
If it's a glorified upscaller that lets you get current levels of PS4 games in VR and 4K, with the regular PS4 still being the developer focus, that's fine. If it's a New PS4 in the Nintendo sense of the word with exclusive games and crappily running Old 3DS games, no to that.
meanspartan
Member
Ya but you are punishing your fans who bought the baseline model with a lesser experience. And again, VR. I bought Ps4 at launch. I have preordered my PSVR. If my PSVR is only going to be an optimal experience for the first year or less until PS4.5 comes out and that becomes the ideal (and I need to spend another $400), then maybe I should just buy whatever the NX is lol.
I'm stoked for VR, but I'll wait longer if the hidden cost of not having a lackluster experience aside from launch games is another Ps4.
meanspartan
Member
And honestly, a GPU that could run games at 4k with decent framerate would not only seemingly be very expensive, it would also be clearly a bigger jump than Ps3 to Ps4 was in regards to the power required for it. For all intents and purposes, it would be Ps5 as to its capability.
I think it must just be a really good 4k upscaler, if anything.
I think it must just be a really good 4k upscaler, if anything.
Because having the PS4 (cheap) and the PS4.5 (expensive, new) on the market let's them not only continue to grow their base (potentially even dropping the PS4 price further), but also get their established audience to cough up more money on profitable sales with shiny trinkets.
See: "Why does the New 3DS exist?" Just replace "Enhanced 3D and performance, face plate customization" with "4K and performance, built in VR(?)".
Nintendo has done this with handhelds since the original GameBoy, and they even did "upgrade" their N64 but that was something anyone could buy as back in those days you could download more RAM.
Don't you need like a 500 dollar video card to do 4k gaming on PC? I mean those cards are massive. Plus you need a pretty hefty power supply.
edit: nice
If you don’t mind running games closer to medium detail settings at 4K, but you still want to experience the pixel-dense glory of games running at 3,840x2,160 resolution, under-$500 (barely under, mind you) cards such as the GeForce GTX 980$494.95 at Amazon and AMD’s Radeon R9 390X$495.29 at Amazon are also capable options. Just remember that you won’t be able to play many games at the highest detail settings.
Time to give up this crazy idea! It's probably an upscaler.
This will happen regardless of a 4.5 or not as parts get cheaper to manufacture.
Please don't claim to speak for all console gamers about how they value their investment. It's both disingenuous and rude.
Haha, I never did.
Not sure how it's rude to state that console gamers like console gaming because they have a really good feeling that their box will get at least five years of gaming support.
Yeah, you did. He literally said why he values consoles, and you proceed to tell him "No you're wrong, let ME tell YOU why you value consoles". Both disingenuous, and rude.
EDIT: Nevermind. Sorry for misreading your post dude. I went off the rails.
What's disingenuous is you making him out to be talking for someone else, when he is speaking on the general reasons why consoles are enjoyed. Doesn't mean an individual can't feel differently about consoles.
Everyone has their own ideas about what a console is or what it means and what it's worth. When you tell someone that the reason they just stated they buy a console isn't actually the reason they bought a console, you are claiming to speak for them. I've seen this argument numerous times over the past few days.
EDIT: on review I overreacted. He's just posing a question and giving his opinion. I think I'll take a break from this topic for a while.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
How realistic would it be for the PS4K to have developers have a 1080p/60fps option as well as a 4K (or what ever the max resolution ends up being) resolution option?
How much more effort would be needed for games to have a 30/60 cap?
How much more effort would be needed for games to have a 30/60 cap?
LordOfChaos
Member
I'm assuming this isn't anywhere near a nearby launch, it may be two years out for all we know. 14nm finfett and HBM2 would certainly help in getting 4K to affordability.
But yeah, I'd worry developers would be tempted to just use that as their target device, leaving the regular PS4 with shoddy back ports. So I hope Sony makes it just a glorified upscaler and really drives home that the PS4 is still the lead platform, if they launch it at all.
Substandard
Member
I would hope that you're right, but I can easily forsee a scenario where Bloodborne 2 will theoretically run on a PS4 but only in 720p with regular drops to sub-10 FPS, and you really need the newest model to run it at a decent framerate with half decent graphics. Or some even worse scenario where we end up with a bunch of the functionality ripped out of the older versions like some of the later PS2 ports once the PS3 was out, or what the later 360 stuff would do to systems without a hard drive.
I see too many parallels to the mobile market. Have you ever looked at what an iPhone 4s runs / runs like at this point? Those are < 5 years old.
With any luck this is all overblown and it just has an upgraded HDMI port and a 4k blu-ray drive and the built in VR stuff.
I think we already know the answer.
4k bluray player is probably all it is.
The guy was talking general as to why people buy consoles, then another poster posed a rhetorical question, surmising that it may be more tied to another reason.
When people buy a consoles it's still different from other consoles and from PC. Saying you get the same experience is sort of arbitrary. There is no reason for a single console to deliver only a singular experience in the first place. I agree that the benefit of consoles more comes from long term support catering to a single install base. As long as you don't fracture that install base, and continue to make sure all games hit a baseline. You still deliver value to all your customers. If people are upset someone gets some extra resolution or fps. That is there problem. As I recall plenty of people claim they don't care about graphics or fps anyways.
edit: I acknowledge your edit.
Sidewinder
Member
I'm in the same boat, Sony better think hard how they want to handle the transition between PS4 and PS4.5 in a way that doesn't hurt the PSVR (launch). If they come out with a new PS4 that performs a lot better with PSVR a short time after launch for 400 or more, I'd be seriously pissed. 400 already is the max I was willing to pay for PSVR, no way I'll fork out another 400 for the ultimate experience!
Whatever they do, they have to announce their plan before October.
If things work the way I think it's gonna work PS4 is getting an even longer life cycle because the software will scale.
Make a PS4 game & it will run on PS4, PS4.5 ,PSVR portable , PS4P & so on.
The hardware will be able to recompile the software to code that runs best on it's platform.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
What about every 5-6 years?
Samurai G0SU
Member
I'd hope so too. And i'd buy it. along with a new 4k tv that i've been eyeing hehe.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I think people forget that PS4 & Xbox One are HSA & that the software is made to scale across different hardware.
It could be a bigger GPU in the PS4.5 but I'm thinking that DSPs/accelerators have been added to the chip.
So where does the PS5 fit into this road map?
meanspartan
Member
I agree, but then what's the point? Two years from now would be 2018 and at that point if Ps4 has say a 6 year lifespan then Ps5 is just around the corner.
meanspartan
Member
I thought Ps4 already did video at 4k?
What if it is in fact the PS5 and all those developers call it PS4.5 because it's basically the PS4 with better hardware, but Sony's plan was all along to make the PS5 just a more powerful PS4. And then some years later the PS6 release with better hardware than the PS5 but all on the same architecture.
I agree with you on the iPhone end. As far as we "know" this is a single mid-cycle upgrade. Annualization would have me scared as well. One more SKU, ok. 5 more SKUs to optimize for? yeah that's asking too much.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Every variation of the rumor points to some kind of performance boost/software related application, I think there is a lot of wiggle room between a "slim" refresh and a proto-PS5 beast for what this thing could be.
GAF has enough insiders floating around to have shot down this rumor 20 times over if it was complete bunk or just a PS4 slim + blu-ray upgrade.
meanspartan
Member
I'd cool with that. If it's a clean break with the old console and Ps4 had at least a 5 year lifespan, that's fine.
meanspartan
Member
Yup. This right here. If it results in anything even approaching that, kill it with fire. Wait for a Ps5.
qa_engineer
Member
Pretty sure HBM is limited to 4gb max. So it would have to be GDDR5, GDDR5X, or HBM2. If HBM2 expect it to be another $599 US DOLLARS debacle.
I've reconsidered my stance and ultimately it's a stretch, not impossible, just incredibly unlikely.
First thing first: What kind of upgrades would they need to do to render in 4k?
A Polaris based GPU would absolutely be required. But they would still need improvements to the CPU and RAM as well as their operations are neither fully coupled or decoupled. While the CPU could probably make do after a die shrink and up clock, there would be little point in keeping that architecture around if they are going to change architectures on the GPU side of the APU anyway. That would mean better VR performance as well.
This means older games will require a patch for 4k and new games will have to take both consoles into consideration. While simply changing changing the parameter for resolution is easy enough, these are fixed systems and ensuring performance at both resolutions requires more Q&A.
That still leaves RAM. We will need a greater throughput and more overall. HBM gets thrown out the window as the first version only supports 4GB and the second version will be too expensive based off of how it is only currently used in the highest end AMD GPUs in a smaller amount. Not to mention AMD's roadmap has pushed HMB2 to Vega at the end of this year. 12GB of slightly higher clocked GDDR5 or GDDR5X would probably fit the bill.
While the new 16nm node and architecture could increase performance significantly to reach these lofty goals, they are still new which means low yields and thus will be expensive.
To truly be a 4k device it will have to support HDMI 2.0, UHD blue rays, and 802.11ac which all will add to device cost.
As for the timeline: This product would have to begin mass production now to have any significant release availability. It would directly compete for fabrication time with AMDs own chips. And upon release the hardware will be relatively untested compared to something like the 28nm node. It would compete for consumers money with their own PSVR product as well as the original PS4 itself by creating a sizable second hand market for the very likely more profitable original device at the peak of it's sales.
It just doesn't seem like a smart business decision to have all that R&D knowing that there are more improvements shortly thereafter in HMB2, Zen, and Vega.
Guys, 4k TVs already do the upscaling. Pointless to put a scaler in a ps4.5
No hdcp 2.2 means no 4k video
A 4gb hbm1 Polaris Apu has been described in this thread and by amd. Add 8gb ddr4.
It's not crazy that a $100 at cost Apu could be a roughly 5 tflop part. Which would be about right for 4k 30 fps. I like fully expect $499-599, and I don't think that would be a debacle.
TimFL
Member
Wait to get this straight. There are people who believe this upgraded 4k PS4.5? No way.
They might release a slightly more powerful iteration but it wont be native 4k gaming ready.
Also how is this even supposed to work then, devs doing 2 versions of a game so it runs uglier on launch day devices? The outcome I see is that this turns into another "weakest link" with most games aiming for launch console compatibility, just like PC games were held back by 360/PS3.
They might release a slightly more powerful iteration but it wont be native 4k gaming ready.
Also how is this even supposed to work then, devs doing 2 versions of a game so it runs uglier on launch day devices? The outcome I see is that this turns into another "weakest link" with most games aiming for launch console compatibility, just like PC games were held back by 360/PS3.
duhmetree
Member
I was reading something about AMD using dual-link interposed HBM stacks to get to 8GB. I'm not sure what type of cost that would add or if it's even possible. At that point it might be better off just to go with HBM2
I also remember Koduri telling us that 'we would be surprised'.
No, noone will bother with HBM1... That doesnt make any sense.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
So how much will the OG PS4 cost?
pixellated_man
Member
And that would be absolutely fine. This would be one of the advantages that a mid gen iteration will bring. People who are fine with their ps4's can enjoy using one until the ps5 comes along with a true generation leap in graphics technology, maybe a new controller input and more up to date components besides the gpu and cpu, like wifi adaptors, usb ports, etc.
On the other hand, those who feel their machine is already getting long in the tooth and want for example, better looking games and 4k media, will have the option to buy an updated ps4 to meet their needs while able to keep all their games and content to use on this new machine.
And why do people keep on mentioning annual or bi annual console iterations? The earliest we can expect a new iteration with upgraded power (if the rumor turns out a reality of course) is the end of this year. More realistically end of next year. That would be 3/4 years after the ps4 launched. Honestly it seems like some people want to put this rumor in the worst possible light and then let off steam by complaining about it. There are absolutely no mention from any of these articles about Sony going the route of a constant iterative business model. This is most likely a one off iterative ps4 going from all we know.
That's not necessarily true. If your frame buffer matches the output exactly then there's no difference but if you have a non-native resolution, use HDR, or a different color space then there are significant benefits to converting directly to the target format instead of going through an intermediate.
The dramatic improvement in color representation alone would be reason enough for me to consider getting a new display. It would be a shame to force every title through the HDTV Rec. 709 color space before upscaling, robbing me of the substantial benefits Rec. 2020 offers.
draughn101
Member
I don't know what everyone is worried about here. Sony is well tapped into "value" for their customers, just look at EA Access, they analysed that perfectly.......
All jokes aside, I'm pumped about this for PS and Xbox, if it's inclusive and not exclusive. I like having better tech, but after 12 years on Xbox Live it's hard for me to leave the console market and all those relationships. If I can have better performance, while keeping my group in tact, then I'm all for it.
All jokes aside, I'm pumped about this for PS and Xbox, if it's inclusive and not exclusive. I like having better tech, but after 12 years on Xbox Live it's hard for me to leave the console market and all those relationships. If I can have better performance, while keeping my group in tact, then I'm all for it.
That's pretty much what they expect i think.
Retail cost != Wholesale cost (and Sony would be getting these GPU's/APU's below wholesale since they'd be buying them in the millions).
Glorified G
Member
Everything we know so far (at least from verified insiders) this is only for people to take advantage of the resolution of their 4K displays. That's it.If you don't have a 4K TV, you're not missing out on anything substantial. All PS4 games will have the same frame rate, same assets, no customization.