Support NeoGAF

[GamerMax73]

It would still be unified , the CPU & GPU still have their own embedded memory in the PS4.

No, they don't. That's what unified means. Unless you're talking cache, which is something else entirely.

 

[GamerMax73]

1) Hybrid storage: keep discs as an authentication method, utilize those 45GB for half the game and download the rest of it via the internet. Some games already do that in this generation for the MP portion (Halo MCC, Uncharted 4).

UHD Blu-Ray. 100GB+ (Seen reports of 300GB). Fully backwards compatible. No problem.

2) Digital-only. This renders BC unusable for PS4 physical games, unless they offer an external Blu-Ray drive option (highly unlikely, since they didn't do it for the PSP discs with the Vita).

Not a practical option, think internationally. 20GB+ games are already a pain to download. Broadband speeds are not keeping up everywhere. It's just not supportable for the wider audience. Day 1 patches are already causing issues for those with no or very slow connections.

 

[Adam Tyner]

UHD Blu-Ray. 100GB+ (Seen reports of 300GB).

The spec maxes out at 100 GB. No one's making those discs yet, although Sony is supposedly the one with the ability to do so anytime soon, which would fare well for any PlayStation products.

 

[family_guy]

It will be the same.
8GB is more than enough.
That might increase the bandwidth using higher clocked modules.

Remember we're talking about 4k resolution though, and 3.5gb are already reserved for the OS. 4.5GB of RAM shared for CPU and GPU at 4K doesn't seem like enough to me.

 

[Negotiator]

UHD Blu-Ray. 100GB+ (Seen reports of 300GB). Fully backwards compatible. No problem.

Not a practical option, think internationally. 20GB+ games are already a pain to download. Broadband speeds are not keeping up everywhere. It's just not supportable for the wider audience. Day 1 patches are already causing issues for those with no or very slow connections.

UHD Blu-Ray uses the same 405nm laser diode, right?

There's also this one (quite old technology, it's a shame that optical discs have stagnated due to digital distribution):

http://www.engadget.com/2004/11/08/beyond-blu-ray-ultraviolet-500gb-optical-discs/
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1017783/pioneer-ultraviolet-laser-promises-500gb-disks

Infrared (CD) < Red (DVD) < Blue/Violet (Blu-Ray) < abandoned format (Ultraviolet)

I'm not a big fan of multi-layer discs. Dual layer discs have caused problems in the past (I remember some PS2/PS3 consoles had trouble to read DL discs, especially if the laser had lots of hours of reading).

 

[spwolf]

It will be the same.
8GB is more than enough.
That might increase the bandwidth using higher clocked modules.

8 GB is the best thing that has ever happened PS4... it will ensure possible upward compatibility with PS5 titles.

 

[platina]

Not even sure where it came from to be honest haha

sli, and there wont be a generational leap this is pure for 4k output.

.

 

[Dictator93]

Well traditional upscaling wouldn't require any changes to GPU so the question begs if not 4K then what is the purpose of having all that extra power?

To make games look better @ 1920X1080?

 

[ccxa]

I'm guessing it will be something like a peripheral. Something like the small box that comes with the PS VR. Much like de N64 had back in the day.

Sony won't waste a 35m+ installed base and piss everybody off.

 

[El_Chino]

.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I'm guessing it will be something like a peripheral. Something like the small box that comes with the PS VR. Much like de N64 had back in the day.

Sony won't waste a 35m+ installed base and piss everybody off.

I don't think this is technically possible apart from anything else.

 

[bitbydeath]

To make games look better @ 1920X1080?

Tiny improvement for a big change. I'm not saying games will be 4K, just wondering what the motivation would be for otherwise.

Why go to all that work when all they need to do is swap out the blu-ray drive for a UHD drive?

 

[Muzicfreq]

Remember we're talking about 4k resolution though, and 3.5gb are already reserved for the OS. 4.5GB of RAM shared for CPU and GPU at 4K doesn't seem like enough to me.

Given that most GPUs still kinda struggle at 4k with higher than high settings unless you pay the premium price.

Didn't Shadows of Mordor have a setting that needed a high memory card?

 

[rpg_fan]

If there's one thing in all this I'm even remotely confident about, it's that there will be no additional apu.

 

[Darryl M R]

I wonder if the PS4K will allow for 1080p/60fps remote play

 

[androvsky]

If there's one thing in all this I'm even remotely confident about, it's that there will be no additional apu.

I think the SLI comment is the part where it became clear that Sony's baiting insiders. Even some of the leaks from different insiders line up with SLI, like requiring a patch to use the extra power which fits with SLI. Obviously Sony would have to be completely insane to do that, so one has to question the rumor sources the insiders are working with after the initial round of leaks.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Given that most GPUs still kinda struggle at 4k with higher than high settings unless you pay the premium price.

Didn't Shadows of Mordor have a setting that needed a high memory card?

I think those that say 4k is completely off the table are taking it way out of context. U4 shows what is possible with animation, post processes and general graphicgasm considering the relatively weak GPU tech in PS4 compared to those high end PC's.

I'm confident I'll saw "wow" when I see God of War 4 on PS4K irrespective of rendering resolution.

 

[SneakyStephan]

You have your thoughts & I have mine & I think it's a 2nd GPU that will have all the updated specs for 4K

Why on earth would they go with two gpus, it makes no sense at all.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

One thing should happen with the update. Better battery life in the controller, or no internal battery.

 

[MatthewTrujillo]

I'm wondering if the eDRAM they ditched for PS4 which theoretically can achieve 1TB per second will be used here?..... I doubt it but you'll never know.

 

[onQ123]

Got to say onQ that I'm surprised you think it has a second GPU. Much simpler and cheaper to go for a upgraded APU.

To add, I'm surprised Osiris talks of the CPU maybe being upgraded when dev kits are already in first party hands and maybe select third parties.

I'm sure Sony had the final dev kits for PS4 out by March/April 2013 even if that was just first party so think any CPU decision had been made some time before.

I don't think this console is going to brute force it's way to 4K I think it's going to be by smart design & the main GPU will still be the same while there is hardware for pushing it to render at 4K.

my thought is that it will be a smaller GPU that's made for 4K rendering & maybe use half precision floating point & other things for higher performance while not being as big & power hungry as the main GPU.

 

[Inuhanyou]

MisterXMedia up in here....

The whole point of this add on is that its easy to do because of the architecture and the process node allows them to put more silicon on there for the same power draw.

Adding on all kinds of crazy combinations and blowing the budget directly goes against the concept of what is essentially just a stopgap performance solution for what i think is an extension of the gen.

The fact of the matter is, even twice the power of PS4's GPU is not enough for 4k internal rendering, and developers are still largely responsible for what they devote resources to.

 

[qa_engineer]

I'm wondering if the eDRAM they ditched for PS4 which theoretically can achieve 1TB per second will be used here?..... I doubt it but you'll never know.

Not going to happen. Adding edram may make backwards and forward compatibility an issue, at least that's my opinion on that matter anyway

 

[paolo11]

Question. The PS4 GPU is equivalent to a 7970m, yes or no?

 

[MatthewTrujillo]

Not going to happen. Adding edram may make backwards and forward compatibility an issue, at least that's my opinion on that matter anyway

You're most likely right It was just something I was pondering. I was thinking back to a talk from Cerny a few years ago.

 

[Wishmaster92]

So if God of war 4 really is the game that is being made with ps4k specs in mind how is it even close to topping this off by just using the ps4k?

Well done, the SSS looks nearly flawless! What was your render time? I'd really like to see your rigging and shading setup.

Roughly 800 hours I think.

According to Cody, Kratos will look better? But it doesn't make any sense

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I don't think this console is going to brute force it's way to 4K I think it's going to be by smart design & the main GPU will still be the same while there is hardware for pushing it to render at 4K.

my thought is that it will be a smaller GPU that's made for 4K rendering & maybe use half precision floating point & other things for higher performance while not being as big & power hungry as the main GPU.

That sounds complicated (for development at least) and liable to be ignored by a lot of third party devs.

MisterXMedia up in here....

The whole point of this add on is that its easy to do because of the architecture and the process node allows them to put more silicon on there for the same power draw.

Adding on all kinds of crazy combinations and blowing the budget directly goes against the concept of what is essentially just a stopgap performance solution for what i think is an extension of the gen.

The fact of the matter is, even twice the power of PS4's GPU is not enough for 4k internal rendering, and developers are still largely responsible for what they devote resources to.

I see this as a restart/reset of the current generation. All the tech is here this year/early next year: 14nm, new CPU/GPU architectures and RAM plus 4K standards finalised.

If it happens it may well be a one-off.

 

[potatohead]

No fucking way it is topping that.

I don't believe that shit.

No way..... come on son.......

Spoiler

*hopes to be proven wrong*

 

[Aceofspades]

According to Cody, Kratos will look better? But it doesn't make any sense

Damn, those talented Sony first party studios!

 

[bitbydeath]

One thing should happen with the update. Better battery life in the controller, or no internal battery.

Nah, why throw away the more advanced tech? Just buy a 2nd controller if you find it a problem.

The fact of the matter is, even twice the power of PS4's GPU is not enough for 4k internal rendering, and developers are still largely responsible for what they devote resources to.

If true then why do you think Sony is increasing it at all?

 

[platina]

800 hours of render time just for the face guys.....800 hours

 

[RoboPlato]

800 hours of render time just for the face guys.....800 hours

Now do it in 16.67ms

 

[onQ123]

That sounds complicated (for development at least) and liable to be ignored by a lot of third party devs.

It could be transparent to the devs for the most part.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

It could be transparent to the devs for the most part.

Sure with good tools, but if the option is there to ignore the second GPU then there is a danger devs would take it. This, for me, is why I think it would be a straight new APU that is more powerful than now.

 

[Inuhanyou]

If true then why do you think Sony is increasing it at all?

Because they can. The process node switch lines up directly with offering a 'premium solution' for performance enthusiasts in the PS ecosystem, while leaving the lower powered PS4 as the economic option with the dwindling price and most likely external revision

 

[platina]

Now do it in 16.67ms

The magic of ssm

 

[potatohead]

That SSS is like real.

Most real 3D face I've ever seen at least.

 

[truth411]

Nah, why throw away the more advanced tech? Just buy a 2nd controller if you find it a problem.



If true then why do you think Sony is increasing it at all?

Better frame rates for VR.
Also if the $499 price point is successful for the PS4k, then expect PS5 to launch at $499 in 2020-2021 being a significantly stronger console without taking a huge financial loss compared to a targeted $399 price point.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I think the SLI comment is the part where it became clear that Sony's baiting insiders. Even some of the leaks from different insiders line up with SLI, like requiring a patch to use the extra power which fits with SLI. Obviously Sony would have to be completely insane to do that, so one has to question the rumor sources the insiders are working with after the initial round of leaks.

What if most games are using the AMD APU for GPGPU for some features that can use APIs released by Sony taking advantage of the GPGPU that Eurogamer reported on for the initial PS4 hardware breakdown? Remember AMD recommended small APU + dGPU until after 2014 designs and the XB1 and PS4 are older designs. So where is the small APU? The XB1 is a post 2014 custom design and the PS4 is a small APU + large APU design. The small APU is Southbridge and is all ARM and may or may not have a GPU but it does have GPGPU which can emulate a GPU or provide the compute the shaders in a GPU can provide.

PS4 Additional hardware: GPU-like Compute module, some resources reserved by the OS
"However, there's a fair amount of "secret sauce" in Orbis and we can disclose details on one of the more interesting additions. Paired up with the eight AMD cores, we find a bespoke GPU-like "Compute" module, designed to ease the burden on certain operations. We're assured that this is bespoke hardware that is not a part of the main graphics pipeline but we remain rather mystified by its standalone inclusion, bearing in mind Compute functions could be run off the main graphics cores and that devs could have the option to utilize that power for additional graphical grunt, if they so chose."

Durango additional graphics hardware - "rumors have circulated for quite some time that it is some way behind Orbis, but equally there has been the suggestion that the GPU itself is supplemented by additional task-specific hardware. We could not confirm this, but an ex-Microsoft staffer with a prior relationship with the Xbox team says that two of these modules are graphics-related."

 

[Graphics Horse]

Are we seriously still using old Durango and Orbis speculation to speculate on the NEXT hardware?
Jeff what Eurogamer was talking about sounds like the 8 Asynchronous Compute Engines, not something on a second chip.

 

[platina]

What if most games are using the AMD APU for GPGPU for some features that can use APIs released by Sony taking advantage of the GPGPU that Eurogamer reported on for the initial PS4 hardware breakdown? Remember AMD recommended small APU + dGPU until after 2014 designs and the XB1 and PS4 are older designs. So where is the small APU? The XB1 is a post 2014 custom design and the PS4 is a small APU + large APU design. The small APU is Southbridge and is all ARM and may or may not have a GPU but it does have GPGPU which can emulate a GPU or provide the compute the shaders in a GPU can provide.

Jeff I've been meaning to ask. With the ps4k what is the probability that by the next year or so we will see games take advantage of the extra uhd space just like last gen regular DVDs on Xbox and blu-Ray on PS3? And could we maybe expect less compressed textures due to the increased space? PS3 versions of games always had better audio compared to Xbox 360 version. How much does a uhd disc cost compared to regular blu-Ray? And do you think it might happen sooner than we think?

 

[David Ricardo]

Are we seriously still using old Durango and Orbis speculation to speculate on the NEXT hardware?
Jeff what Eurogamer was talking about sounds like the 8 Asynchronous Compute Engines, not something on a second chip.

 

[ZoyosJD]

I don't think this console is going to brute force it's way to 4K I think it's going to be by smart design & the main GPU will still be the same while there is hardware for pushing it to render at 4K.

my thought is that it will be a smaller GPU that's made for 4K rendering & maybe use half precision floating point & other things for higher performance while not being as big & power hungry as the main GPU.

Stop. Just stop.

Adding another GPU to the system requires a complete rework of PCB design (extensive and costly R&D), SLI/Crossfire/Async compute does not offer perfect scaling, relies on the yields of two chips rather than one, and complicates the software side including the potential for a limited developer intervention solution for 4k output. It's the opposite of "smart design."

You have no idea what you are talking about mentioning half precision floating point operations as a breakthrough for higher performance. 32 bit (single) precision has been in use for decades for a reason. 16 bit (half) precision has only returned to relevance for it's use in research for AI neural networks in the last few years.

 

[bitbydeath]

Better frame rates for VR.
Also if the $499 price point is successful for the PS4k, then expect PS5 to launch at $499 in 2020-2021 being a significantly stronger console without taking a huge financial loss compared to a targeted $399 price point.

Which makes it interesting.
CPU is the main part for increasing framerate and this was one of the parts in question as whether to upgrade it.

Given the CPU is already underpowered as is you'd think this would be the first thing they'd want to swap out in order to increase FPS for VR.

Or it's just a game of chinese whispers and this was always on the cards.

 

[chemicals]

My question is :: Will current PS4 games be patched to take advantage of PS4K's extra horsepower?

 

[bitbydeath]

My question is :: Will current PS4 games be patched to take advantage of PS4K's extra horsepower?

Probably not unless they can find a way to charge for it otherwise why bother?

 

[RoboPlato]

My question is :: Will current PS4 games be patched to take advantage of PS4K's extra horsepower?

Ones that are still being actively supported when the 4k launches probably will but older titles are unlikely. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of late 2016 releases were updated as well.

 

[potatohead]

Better frame rates for VR.
Also if the $499 price point is successful for the PS4k, then expect PS5 to launch at $499 in 2020-2021 being a significantly stronger console without taking a huge financial loss compared to a targeted $399 price point.

I think the VR thing might sound likely.

If it's twice as powerful maybe that means....

PS4 + PS VR ---> 3D @ 60 fps + reprojection

PS4K + PS VR ---> 3D @ 120 fps

Maybe?

 

[Negotiator]

Probably not unless they can find a way to charge for it otherwise why bother?

Uncharted 1 added trophy support via a patch in 2008. I think they'll do it for free in flagship titles (i.e. Uncharted 4).

 

[orochi91]

My question is :: Will current PS4 games be patched to take advantage of PS4K's extra horsepower?

Probably not all of them.

The big AAA titles probably will; UC4, TW3, SW:BF and etc.

I'd like From Software to patch BB, but it doesn't seem like they'd give a fuck.