Man, I'm glad you like the game, but thank god I got beyond this Miyamoto apologist bullshit.
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Star Fox Zero |OT| The Fox Awakens
- Thread starter TheMoon
- Start date
Man, I'm glad you like the game, but thank god I got beyond this Miyamoto apologist bullshit.
I mean that the aiming reticule would not move independently of the ship, just like Starfox 64, so you would need to move the ship to adjust your aim and the reticule would just sit there in the center of the gamepad. Would you still have the option to look around on the gamepad using motion controls, even though you would still be shooting straight ahead?
Edited to include other replies, posting way too much here...
I'm working with Spring to figure out how a more traditional control style would play out, but my impression is that there would be a lot of issues. Thing is that the controls are just as simple, it's just that the second screen makes you relearn how to approach the game. We had to do a lot of learning back then to figure out how to use a cross-pad and an analog stick, it was all fresh and exciting at one point--now it's just the way it is, but it doesn't mean there is nothing new left that is just as good or better.
When did Miyamoto fans become Miyamoto apologists? He's like the Spielberg of gaming, you can try hating on him but it says more about you than about him. Games are made by artists, if you treat them like factory workers you don't get art.
James Scott
Banned
While Miyamoto might of had a part in why Sticker Star was so bad (the simpler story was the least of that game's issues having broken game design ideas that contradicted each other), I feel that Miyamoto and Platinum did well by me with Star Fox.
Visually it might leave a bit to be desired at times, but they got the new designs and game feel/gameplay right. This is the first Star Fox game I wanted to 100%, it's really really good with a very high skill ceiling where I was learning new things even as I had 67/70 medals acquired. I hope Star Fox gets a bigger budget for the next game or at least allow it to live off as a portable+console NX title which should allow them to keep the budget down while making a fairly lengthy game.
I really liked the transformations in the game. It adds quite a bit especially during the first playthrough. The walker was really fun to play as and then transform to boost through a stage especially the training missions which are really fun to do. The walker seemed to have outlived its usefulness during high level play, but it allows you to Zelda Z-Target enemies making it face whatever you're fighting which is pretty excellent. Instead of doing a U-Turn just turn into the walker, ZR target, and then turn back. The walker leaves a bit to be desired with camera/3rd person controls but you get the hang of it.
Missions are a great addition to the franchise on top of just getting a high score. It's something that should really be added into more of Nintendo's games as an optional bonus. Captain Toad was the first, IIRC? Would work great in Mario. They're hard enough to make them feel compelling to collect despite there being so many of them. A bit of an issue would be that it doesn't tell you which ones you have already or what to do to get new ones, though.
Poured over 30 or so hours according to the Wii U's internal clock to get 100%. Haven't done arcade mode which I guess I can give a shot, but I feel like i got my money's worth. Don't know about Star Fox Guard, don't like Tower Defense games too much.
I'd echo what I said earlier, the poor critical reception dooming the game's sales is probably one of the biggest bummers of 2016 so far. It's been 10 years since the last game and I feel like this one was on the right track and that it's the best one in the franchise but it's going to sell poorly despite having a fairly good marketing push based on youtube ads popping up and Nintendo's push overall. I really dont' get how people can have so much trouble while I got it before I finished Corneria.
Visually it might leave a bit to be desired at times, but they got the new designs and game feel/gameplay right. This is the first Star Fox game I wanted to 100%, it's really really good with a very high skill ceiling where I was learning new things even as I had 67/70 medals acquired. I hope Star Fox gets a bigger budget for the next game or at least allow it to live off as a portable+console NX title which should allow them to keep the budget down while making a fairly lengthy game.
I really liked the transformations in the game. It adds quite a bit especially during the first playthrough. The walker was really fun to play as and then transform to boost through a stage especially the training missions which are really fun to do. The walker seemed to have outlived its usefulness during high level play, but it allows you to Zelda Z-Target enemies making it face whatever you're fighting which is pretty excellent. Instead of doing a U-Turn just turn into the walker, ZR target, and then turn back. The walker leaves a bit to be desired with camera/3rd person controls but you get the hang of it.
Missions are a great addition to the franchise on top of just getting a high score. It's something that should really be added into more of Nintendo's games as an optional bonus. Captain Toad was the first, IIRC? Would work great in Mario. They're hard enough to make them feel compelling to collect despite there being so many of them. A bit of an issue would be that it doesn't tell you which ones you have already or what to do to get new ones, though.
Poured over 30 or so hours according to the Wii U's internal clock to get 100%. Haven't done arcade mode which I guess I can give a shot, but I feel like i got my money's worth. Don't know about Star Fox Guard, don't like Tower Defense games too much.
I'd echo what I said earlier, the poor critical reception dooming the game's sales is probably one of the biggest bummers of 2016 so far. It's been 10 years since the last game and I feel like this one was on the right track and that it's the best one in the franchise but it's going to sell poorly despite having a fairly good marketing push based on youtube ads popping up and Nintendo's push overall. I really dont' get how people can have so much trouble while I got it before I finished Corneria.
Yeah, the controls are unorthodox and obviously require a little bit of a learning curve, but I felt like I got the gist of it before completing Corneria. I totally get that this game wouldn't be for everyone, but I'm pretty shocked that the overwhelming popular consensus is that this game and its controls are not very good at all.
This is finally the game I've wanted since the N64 release, and I'm having loads of fun with it.
Haven't even touched Guard yet, either!
This is finally the game I've wanted since the N64 release, and I'm having loads of fun with it.
Haven't even touched Guard yet, either!
Wow.
The other night I booted up Star Fox 64 to try and finish up getting all the expert medals and I legitimately spent most of the time wishing I was playing Zero instead, it's just so much more active. Being able to shoot down falling enemies then quickly adjusting your aim to something else, nailing the timing for crit charge shots, actually having enjoyable all range levels, the game really is a step up from 64.
robor
Member
Seriously. Looking back at the other games, I wonder what the hell I was playing after Zero. I can't even begin to describe my shattered expectations for this game. It's beyond my wildest dreams.
Spring-Loaded
Member
it's kind of sad that a game being better overall than its 20-year-old predecessor was such an unsure thing, and is being celebrated to such a degree
and it's sad that there are some ways its objectively worse than that predecessor
and it's sad that there are some ways its objectively worse than that predecessor
Yeah, I really wish they had gone all-out in upping the ante. Where are the massive scale space battles? The more intense scenarios? They should have gone full space opera.
Escalation as in W101 would have been amazing.
The final mission of that game is absolutely amazing and epic, even if the shooter parts were actually nothing to write home about. Something like that but with Zero's gameplay would have been something else!
Instead it just feels like a budget game that doesn't compare to the best in the genre, even if it is the best in the series. I was absolutely floored by S&P2 and Orta when I finished them. Felt like a really satisfying journey. Zero just felt like like it was missing content, with a vague feeling of 'well, it's still better than SF64, so I guess that's something'. It could have been so much more.
Escalation as in W101 would have been amazing.
The final mission of that game is absolutely amazing and epic, even if the shooter parts were actually nothing to write home about. Something like that but with Zero's gameplay would have been something else!
Instead it just feels like a budget game that doesn't compare to the best in the genre, even if it is the best in the series. I was absolutely floored by S&P2 and Orta when I finished them. Felt like a really satisfying journey. Zero just felt like like it was missing content, with a vague feeling of 'well, it's still better than SF64, so I guess that's something'. It could have been so much more.
A very instructive interview: http://www.nintendo.co.uk/News/2016/May/Star-Fox-Zero-Dev-Team-Interview-Part-One-1106940.html
James Scott
Banned
Which ways is it objectively worse?
It's also people saying the new controls are good that it makes the old traditional way feel older.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
It doesn't feel immersive and it definitely doesn't look cool.
Poltergust
Member
I mean, you still have people prop up 20+ year old games as the best in their series.
See Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, Final Fantasy, etc.
James Scott
Banned
Yep, everyone should play the training mission a few times.For youFor me it really feels immersive and cool
It's really helpful and it's actually really fun. It doesn't stop you to tell you how to play, you can haul ass and finish it quickly and it's fun to speed run.
Exactly, if you really want to learn the basics of the new gameplay, the best way is to make the training because it is perfectly designed.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Fewer levels, fewer branching paths, fewer hidden paths, no multiplayer, recycled bosses, etc.
Bumbletron
Member
Playing the game again tonight. Man, I really love Fortuna.
This game has been a blast to play, and has been really good for short 20-30 min sessions when I just want to pick something up.
This game has been a blast to play, and has been really good for short 20-30 min sessions when I just want to pick something up.
Refreshment.01
Member
Exactly, and is not uncommon at all. Super Metroid, Link's Awakening, Link to the Past, Yoshi's Island, Castlevania Symphony of the Night, Final Fantasy III, Chrono Trigger and many others. Most of these examples are relics from an era were 3D rendering wasn't as main stream yet, so they are considered better games by many even when they have these big limitations.
Spring-Loaded
Member
what are their metacritic scores
are we putting star fox 64 of the same level as Chrono Trigger and Super Metroid
are we putting star fox 64 of the same level as Chrono Trigger and Super Metroid
Refreshment.01
Member
It does make quite an impact, doesn't it?
i remember in the threadds before the game release we were talking about the possibility to adapt the inerface to other controllers besides the Gamepad. After experiencing the game, im not sure if im willing to sacrifice the feature.
Is not simply about having convincing sound chatter close to the user as if it was coming from a radio. There's various environmental sound effects coming through the controller's speakers. In Corneria for example, the air rapidly hitting the body of the ship when entering the atmosphere or the water splashing when hovering close to a body of water. Or the sound of the G Difuser when accelarating. There are even sounds that give the impression of coming closer as they are first heard on the TV and then on the Gamepad. It is exactly as it should sound from inside the ship's cockpit.
i think the idea of having an speaker in a controller to complemet the feedback the player receives was amazing since the Wii days and is still great in the few Wii U games that use the feature. It seems as useful as rumble, i would' ve have really liked if it became as standard as the haptic feedback stablsihed since the N64, funny enough by this series no less.
Spring-Loaded
Member
To people who want another/more Star Fox: how do you reconcile the terrible/middling reception to this game? Do you just tell yourself it doesn't matter, or what?
Spring-Loaded
Member
Think it's more damage
Edit: that's just based on me using it on a couple levels can't corroborate it at all. There's no entry on any Star Fox wikis I've seen, which is sad.
Refreshment.01
Member
Yes, lasers do extra damage. An easy way to notcie yourself is by figthing some StarWolf members, you' ll notcie how fast the energy bar gets eaten XD
As a platinum games fan, yes.
Refreshment.01
Member
If i ever saw a brilliant reply once...
Man Platinum! Has there ever been a developer with so many incredible games but with such poor sales performance and in some cases with harsh times in terms of gaming media reception?
Junahu
Member
I tell myself that the reception of a game is not the be all and end all of its IP. Merely having these games exist is beneficial to keeping the public aware of Star Fox and its characters. They don't have to sell well, Nintendo just need to be willing to keep nurturing the franchise and monetise it through merchandise, animation, etc.
Refreshment.01
Member
But in the end is Zero critical reception the worst by a such a wide margin as some people are making it believe?
i don't keep much note of review scores, but i remember Assault getting a cold critical reception and not very favorable views from all players. Command tried to inject new things into the formula but it seems in terms of quality was some steps down from 64.
In the end, i do know that both Assault and Command weren't able to brake the million sales barrier in platforms with larger user bases and probably without the time and budgtet limitations (relatively speaking) that Zero had. Yet neither Assault nor Command marked the end of the franchize.
DownGrader
Member
Do we know that for sure? There is a ten-year gap between Command and Zero, and we know that Zero is mainly a result of Miyamoto's "Projects" GamePad experiments.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Not really! It's technically been the "end of the series as we know it," a few times.
TheMoon
Member
Refreshment.01
Member
Which makes the recent: "How much i hate Miyamoto threads" so amusing yet sad. The creative need to explore ways to use the Gamepad gave us the latest 2 entries in the franchize. As well as an animated short.
But taking some minutes to learn a different control system is just to big of an offense for the above to matter.
XDThe simple fact that Zero and Guard exist answer that question pretty definitely
Infinite_Respawn
Member
I just wanted to pop in here to say I had a fantastic time with Zero (as is evident above) and that I feel it's a shame that everyone didn't get the same experience with it that I did. But I understand the added complexity and precision that gyro controls bring aren't for everyone, and the second screen is just a setup some found too cumbersome to use, despite the advantages it brings, especially in dogfights. Regardless, I look forward to revisiting Zero down the line: messing around with Arcade Mode, taking a spin in the Roadmaster, and of course, seeing all the crazy stuff I can pull off in the Black Arwing, but I'll leave that as incentive to come back when I don't have so much on the horizon!
EDIT: Results Screen spoilered out of consideration for those LTTP.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
How long did it take people to get used to the controls? I did the training twice, beat the first level (barely beat the boss), and died on the walker part of the second. So far I feel like I'm fighting the controls more than the enemies and just find them frustrating.
You can't aim effectively on the TV and you can't see your surroundings on the gamepad. It feels like they intentionally gimped both screens to force you to use both, otherwise you won't hit anything or you will run into everything.
You can't aim effectively on the TV and you can't see your surroundings on the gamepad. It feels like they intentionally gimped both screens to force you to use both, otherwise you won't hit anything or you will run into everything.
James Scott
Banned
Just keep trying the training mode which covers all the basics. I stare mostly at the gamepad to aim, seems like the most useful screen for basically everything with the top screen to help you see where you are in a 3D space.
If you're having some trouble with the walker, try a bit with the limited motion controls which resets the camera when you stop shooting. Seems to help with that though in the end I stuck with the full motion.
Pro Tip: the walker can Z-Target, like in Zelda. This is very useful for tight spaces, have them in your line of sights and press ZR.
Pretty sure it has more content than Star Fox 64. Just getting all the levels took me more (according to the internal Wii U/3DS clock) than Star Fox 64 3D. Might seem shorter since you don't have to play the main campaign over and over again to unlock every level.
The reception of people that "don't get it" (can't put it any other way since I got it almost immediately) is disappointing since it meant lower sales for a game I thought was pretty fantastic. So in that regard it's probably wise to use something else for the next game.
I dont' think one can argue that the reception was "terrible" it's just mixed.
TheMoon
Member
But then how are there cockpit-view-only runs out there?
Took me 3-4 levels. What I do now is put the cockpit view on the TV (except for the Gyrowing) with the minus button, set motion controls to only when holding ZR so the reticule auto re-calibrates when not firing, and sort of recline so I can see both screens at once if need be. I mostly use the 3rd person view for a 3D radar.
James Scott
Banned
Yeah, can't be upset at Miyamoto. When these franchises like Star Fox and F-Zero have lowered sales it's hard to get a sequel greenlight unless they have a new idea that they think could make it sell more.
I think they mentioned looking for a new idea for F-Zero. "Just make F-Zero GX HD" is kind of exactly why they don't want make a new F-Zero game. That game didnt' do well.
He got a new Star Fox greenlight after 10 years and it was pretty good if you got used to the controls. Probably didn't pay off, but at least we got one that's good. We also got that animated short since he wanted to make it, like Refreshment.01 said
I think they mentioned looking for a new idea for F-Zero. "Just make F-Zero GX HD" is kind of exactly why they don't want make a new F-Zero game. That game didnt' do well.
He got a new Star Fox greenlight after 10 years and it was pretty good if you got used to the controls. Probably didn't pay off, but at least we got one that's good. We also got that animated short since he wanted to make it, like Refreshment.01 said
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Clearly they are more comfortable with the game than I am, what I said is precisely my experience. Can't hit any enemies without locking on if I don't look at the gamepad, but if I'm focusing on that then I start crashing into walls and stuff while I focus on aiming. Especially during the boss in the first level and all throughout the second.
Definitely need to try the other control scheme.
Refreshment.01
Member
You' ll need to learn to be more coordinated. That is something that people lose for been stock with the same standarized controls. Throw any different at people and they start fumbling like drunken sailors.
As explained in the tutorial different situations demand different aproaches. Here are some tips that hopefully will help you:
- For on rail segments enemies close to you can be taken down mainly from third person view. For faraway targets use cockpit view.
- Since you are not used yet to view shifting, remember that you can slow down the ship by titlting the thumbstick back. SO if you feel overwhelmed by many targets, hit the brakes and keep them pressed while you shoot the targets.
- In all range mode while in Zlocking, Use quick glances of the TV to get an idea of the surroundings and position in relation to the enemy but control the navigation mainly by using the Cockpit view. Since people at first find lateral movements with this camera confusing.
- If still having some troubles in the main game, do some practice runs in training. Eventually you' ll get it.
- Before proceeding any further do some extra practice rounds with the walker, it's the vehicle that deviates more from what people are used to.
Believe me. If you are honestly interested in this game and managed to adapt to dual analog for shooters then you are prefectly capable of dominating these controls. Don't sell yourself short, you are not a the guy from that website playing Doom XD
SCReuter
Member
"It's not that the DOOM player needs to practice. It's rather that the controls are unintuitive and bad."
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
That looks like me playing a FPS game, honestly, lol.
(And I'm even worse at third person shooters... Uncharted 2 on the EASIEST difficulty was very difficult for me).
(And I'm even worse at third person shooters... Uncharted 2 on the EASIEST difficulty was very difficult for me).
Replaying the levels, some of the all-range bosses (even with the Landmaster!) play much better the 2nd time around when you're more attuned with the controls. I feel like aiming for 70 medals is going to make the appreciate the game more. Especially since I already have 5 medals on Zoness and don't have to play that level ever again!!!! YEAH!!!
Also, I'm liking the music more by reducing the gamepad volume and upping the TV's.
Also, I'm liking the music more by reducing the gamepad volume and upping the TV's.
robor
Member
It's bizarre that this needs to be explained. I sucked at this game and died quite a few times, but with every return, I got twice as better as the last. I can't understand the negative response. I suppose I have more patience than the average gamer and I'm more curious about the new scheme before dismissing it because of its ambition being beyond my nostalgic lens.
I mean, do people realize what they have here? Do they even know? I can't even play the other games after this. It's too good of a sequel that it might as well be a new IP.
The_Intruder
Member
Yeah it's with things like that that you see there is a real learning curve with this game and its gameplay based on motion control and 2 screens.
I remember I had difficulty to handle the landmaster and the boss on Titania gave me a hard time (even if I beated him on a first try). The boss on Fichina killed me twice before I killed him and it was not that easy for me.
When I went back on Fichina aiming for 70 medals, He got bodied, but bodied so hard I had mercy for him. During my first time on Fichina I got one medal, but on the second time I've gotten the four medals remaining.
I was like "yeah Now I master the control of the landmaster, this game has a real learning curve, how fun is that!"
Now I have fun with the black arwing, it brings more challenge to the missions with the feeling we can die anytime if we are not concentrated.
ps: I see i'm not the only one who was annoyed by medals on Zoness lol.