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[wrowa]

Also, looks like I'm one of those fans that got lost in their decision to tone down the shooting and focus on story and slower pacing. I don't need to shoot somebody every 10 seconds but it really feels like a much different, far less replayable Uncharted, than the others.

I'm on the other side of the coin. I never really enjoyed Uncharted's shooting segments, they always felt kinda clunky and more annoying than fun to me. So, I really liked that there was a bigger focus on climbing and stealth (which I thought worked really well in U4) in Uncharted 4.

However, I do agree with the replayability. I've got no desire at all to replay Uncharted 4. Climbing through some cool set pieces is cool the first time around, but I don't think it would be fun a second time. But that's not very importan to me either way.

 

[SunBroDave]

Incredible game Neil. Can't wait to see what you do next.

 

[Neiteio]

I think seeing Nate mortified over the

Spoiler

murder of the guard

in Panama really goes a long way to making him seem less like a coldblooded killer.

 

[QuantumBro]

I think seeing Nate mortified over the

Spoiler

murder of the guard

in Panama really goes a long way to making him seem less like a coldblooded killer.

Considering he goes on from there to kill 1000's of people throughout four games, it really doesn't.

 

[Azoor]

Wait did Fem Frequency really accuse Elena of being a Skylar type character?

LOL

Anita does like to exaggerate few things here and there.

 

[Jimmyfenix]

Thank you Neil for including my home country and the greatest country in the world in your game

Spoiler

Scotland

 

[takriel]

RollingStone knows about NeoGAF?

RollingStone knows about you.

 

[DerZuhälter]

I felt the ending was

Spoiler

too much putting the lid on it and saying "We are done with Uncharted."

Yeah we knew that was the plan all along, but I still feel a bit more ambigiouty would have been better.

 

[Bananastand]

I agree with him about Elena. She was trying to push him to do some of the things he used to, she didn't want to just chain him to a quiet life.

Yeah, I feel like the game goes out of its way to show Elena being supportive and just as capable as Nate. (general game spoilers following)

Spoiler

She doesn't hold him back at all, it's just that Nate thinks she would disapprove of his need for an adventurous live. She feels the same and that's why she encourages him to take the illegal Malaysian job.

 

[SSReborn]

I'm on the other side of the coin. I never really enjoyed Uncharted's shooting segments, they always felt kinda clunky and more annoying than fun to me. So, I really liked that there was a bigger focus on climbing and stealth (which I thought worked really well in U4) in Uncharted 4.

However, I do agree with the replayability. I've got no desire at all to replay Uncharted 4. Climbing through some cool set pieces is cool the first time around, but I don't think it would be fun a second time.

Yeah but why would you as a designer cater to the otherside if they didn't enjoy the formula to begin with? Wouldn't you make your game around the people who have supported and liked the franchise since the beginning?

Like I said many times the beginning just needed a couple more gun fights or even more lengthy ones to balance out the "downtime" otherwise it was great.

Lol love the response with regards to the "mass murderer Drake" complaints.

 

[CHC]

The opening of the game, in the boat, that used to not be the opening of the game until very late in production. You got thrown from the boat, you got separated from Sam, and you had to swim to shore. You spent several minutes swimming to shore and being lost at sea. It just felt really long and unnecessary.

Did the game start with the flashback, when you didn't start with the boat chase?

It started on Nate. You heard the nun say his name, and then we cut to him.

I knew it!

Such a weird way to open the game, I didn't really care for it. It always felt like it was INTENDED to start in the orphanage.

 

[pantsmith]

The Feminist Frequency review that I just watched, which I actually really enjoyed, talked about this. I disagree with them. They said they didn't like how Elena was handled in the story. That she becomes an obstacle to Nathan, that's she's this wet blanket, and she's the thing that's holding him back.

My interpretation, or at least our intention, is that she's not. The only thing holding Nate back is Nate.

If anything, Elena is trying to urge him to take this Malaysia job, even though it's illegal. The thing that makes Elena the most upset is that he doesn't include her. That's his biggest flaw in the story, that he ends up lying to her.

Uncharted 4 is about how dysfunctional Nate is, and how hes almost compulsively drawn to the adventuring life to fill a lot of big holes in who he is; his parents, his brother, his lack of any stability or control growing up.

The one thing that makes him work is Elena, she balances him out. She cares about him. The argument that shes a wet blanket in the way of what he wants misses the whole point about her trying to get him to take the Malaysia job. She wants him to be happy. She just doesnt want to be lied to and excluded - when shes "upset" its because Drake is "using" again and lied about it, not because shes an obstacle for him to surpass. If anything Elena is the MVP of the game, as both a caring and capable figure that has Nate's best interests at heart.

 

[fastmower]

I knew it!

Such a weird way to open the game, I didn't really care for it.

Yeah, it's weird that Neil made that decision to 'improve the pacing'...

 

[Hanmik]

Hi Niel..! Stop (only) reading.. we would love to have you here as a user.:!

 

[NullPointer]

Believe it or not, we had way more boxes and ladder boosts than what the game actually ended up with. This is a much-reduced version of that.

Oh, wow.

 

[HabeeNo]

Neil, if you're reading this, thank you so much for the game. One of the greatest conclusions for a gaming series I've ever played.

Spoiler

Young Sully spinoff plz

 

[SomTervo]

The Feminist Frequency review that I just watched, which I actually really enjoyed, talked about this. I disagree with them. They said they didn't like how Elena was handled in the story. That she becomes an obstacle to Nathan, that's she's this wet blanket, and she's the thing that's holding him back.

My interpretation, or at least our intention, is that she's not. The only thing holding Nate back is Nate.

If anything, Elena is trying to urge him to take this Malaysia job, even though it's illegal. The thing that makes Elena the most upset is that he doesn't include her. That's his biggest flaw in the story, that he ends up lying to her.

Great response, and he's right. Feminist Frequency's cause is good but their arguments pretty constantly betray a lack of attention about every game they analyse.

In her first scenes, Elena straight up says "You should go for this job even though it's illegal", and in the latter half of UC4

Spoiler

Elena pretty much says "You know what, this adventuring biz is pretty great, it's good to be back out here doing this, you did the right thing Nate".

 

[mrklaw]

FWIW, I loved the opening, I love the generally slower pacing and exploration vs constant fighting, and I love the wider, more open areas (especially the rock crawling bits with the Jeep)

 

[MiamiWesker]

His comments on the slow pacing is kind of disturbing to me. I don't think the start was the issue, there was some genuinely great small gameplay moments that engage the player into the story very well. The bad is the rest of the game that refuses to keep the action going for who knows what reason. He wanted to cut back the gun battles, ok then replace it with something good. Walking around and pressing x on highlighted objects is not compelling. The platforming, exploration and puzzles were not improved enough to become the main focus from the gun battles which were improved tremendously.

From a game design position I don't get it, let's improve the best aspect of the game, the action, but then let's put less of it in the game. Isn't the purpose of a game designer to create the best gaming experience possibles. Telling a story is great and all but not at the expense of what makes games great. His comment about it being ok to lose some of those people is bothersome. He rather have people that want to watch a game rather than play it? It doesn't have to be shoot shoot bang bang for 15 hours straight but it doesn't have to be this shoot stop, shoot stop, and a conscious choice to put less setpieces, less action.

(I still loved U4 but I felt it could have been an all time greatest game ever like U2 but the pacing took it out of that category for me, shame)

 

[Jimmyfenix]

yeah they should have asked questions what the DLC might be about

 

[Neiteio]

I knew it!

Such a weird way to open the game, I didn't really care for it. It always felt like it was INTENDED to start in the orphanage.

I plan to play UC4 for a non-gamer friend, and I'm almost tempted to just skip the boat in the rain and start from the orphanage.

 

[Beatboxtaun]

This obsession rings true for all of us:

"You're surfing the comment forums at NeoGAF right now?
That's my sick obsession. You listen to movie directors in interviews, and they can go sit in a theater and get the reaction of people to their movie. We don't have that experience. Sure, I can invite someone over who hasn't played the game and watch them play, but it's not quite the same. Going on NeoGAF or watching Let's Play videos is how I get to experience the game now, and see what works, what doesn't work, how people interpret the material. That, to me, is part of the payoff of making this game. You have to have thick skin. But it can be quite enjoyable."

 

[Lys Skygge]

Thank you Neil, for this masterpiece. Uncharted 4 was perfect

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Yeah, it's weird that Neil made that decision to 'improve the pacing'...

I see the idea behind it. Like Uncharted 2 opens with the train, its a crazy situation that has you asking, ok how the hell did he get here, what is this, how did this happen. And its a bit of excitement added to an opening thats gonna be slow because they have a lot of plot to set up.

 

[GalacticMouse]

I either completely forgot this part or I wasn't able to trigger it. How is it different?

It's not in the game. I believe it's quickly hinted at but you're not able to actually do it. It's a bummer too, because I think it would have alleviated a lot of complaints about the

Spoiler

Rafe fight

at the end of the game.

 

[Griss]

Can you balance passion versus settling down? That, to me, is the heart of this thing

No wonder I found the story so dull / uninspired. They started from an intrinsically dull concept.

I felt like they had the tone all wrong throughout the game. They gave Nate so many reasons not to be adventuring, or not to be enjoying the adventuring, when they should have been the doing the opposite.

It's a shame, but it's my least favourite Uncharted plot. At least it was clearly intentional.

 

[SomTervo]

Uncharted 4 has a trophy called "Ludonarrative Dissonance" for killing 1,000 people. That's a reference to the criticism that Nathan Drake doesn't respond emotionally to all the killing he does.

I told all the people on the team, "This is my proudest moment, the fact that I came up with this trophy on this project." We were conscious to have fewer fights, but it came more from a desire to have a different kind of pacing than to answer the "ludonarrative dissonance" argument.

Because we don't buy into it. I've been trying to dissect it. Why is it that Uncharted triggers this argument, when Indiana Jones doesn't? Is it the number? It can't be just the number, because Indiana Jones kills more people than a normal person does. A normal person kills zero people. And Indiana Jones kills a dozen, at least, over the course of several movies. What about Star Wars? Han Solo and Luke Skywalker, are they some sort of serial killers? They laugh off having killed some stormtroopers. And in The Force Awakens, we see that a stormtrooper can actually repent for the person he is and come around, and there are actually real people under those helmets.

It's a stylized reality where the conflicts are lighter, where death doesn't have the same weight.

We're not trying to make a statement about Third World mercenaries, or the toll of having killed hundreds of people in your life.

Haha, sick – Neil, you are saving this industry for me.

 

[Falchion]

Aw man that sword fight in the mansion would've been so cool to have, shame they had to cut that so late.

 

[fastmower]

I see the idea behind it. Like Uncharted 2 opens with the train, its a crazy situation that has you asking, ok how the hell did he get here, what is this, how did this happen. And its a bit of excitement added to an opening thats gonna be slow because they have a lot of plot to set up.

Yeah, I understand the logic; I just don't think it was very successful.

 

[Jimmyfenix]

Indiana Jones is a monster

 

[thetrin]

Spoiler

I liked that Elena was pushing him to take the job. She knew who she married. The issue IS Nate, and you feel like Nate underestimated his wife, who in the end saves him and says "you should have included me. I could always hold my own".

I love that he also says he didn't do it to protect her. He wanted to show her he had changed, but she never asked that of him. He had these false expectations based on his own thoughts.

Loved their dynamic.

The end especially accentuates how they eventually hit a comfortable place where they can go be who they want to be, build a life around it, and have a kid. When she finds that photo, it's like seeing your parents in bell bottoms looking badass. You think "whoa, my parents were cool once too!"

This obsession rings true for all of us:

"You're surfing the comment forums at NeoGAF right now?
That's my sick obsession. You listen to movie directors in interviews, and they can go sit in a theater and get the reaction of people to their movie. We don't have that experience. Sure, I can invite someone over who hasn't played the game and watch them play, but it's not quite the same. Going on NeoGAF or watching Let's Play videos is how I get to experience the game now, and see what works, what doesn't work, how people interpret the material. That, to me, is part of the payoff of making this game. You have to have thick skin. But it can be quite enjoyable."

Shit, I understand. I check what gaf thinks about stuff I work on as well.

 

[CHC]

I plan to play UC4 for a non-gamer friend, and I'm almost tempted to just skip the boat in the rain and start from the orphanage.

It really is like the only truly puzzling bit of the game. Why there? It's weird because it's not even a particularly important part of the game to flash forward to. With Uncharted 2 it made more sense just because it was like.... the ultimate low point of the journey. It makes sense to start out with injured Drake hanging from a train car, then cut back to a sunny beach. There's a tension when you know that shit is going to horribly wrong but you're watching it anyway.

In Uncharted 4 it's just like... a boat chase. Without any context it seems like a random and meaningless moment. It might make more sense if they returned to the boat AFTER the orphanage flashback, but they don't, so there's no real symmetry to any of it.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Yeah, I understand the logic; I just don't think it was very successful.

No, I dont think it was very successful, either. Good idea, poor execution. Probably should have just started with the Orphanage.

 

[Neiteio]

I see the idea behind it. Like Uncharted 2 opens with the train, its a crazy situation that has you asking, ok how the hell did he get here, what is this, how did this happen. And its a bit of excitement added to an opening thats gonna be slow because they have a lot of plot to set up.

For sure, that's definitely the intention. In medias res, as they say. But I think it was much more effective in UC2 by virtue of just how exotic a train derailment in the Himalayas seems compared to the more pedestrian pulp scenario of mooks chasing you in a boat. A train dangling off an icy cliff begs the question "How did we get to this" more than fleeing from pirates on the ocean.

My misgivings about the boat opening aside, I'd say the first few hours of UC4 are stronger than the first few hours of TLoU. The flashback that opens TLoU is great, but then the first hour in the quarantine zone is... well, I was going to soften my wording, but it's pretty dreadfully slow. By comparison, the orphanage and Panama prison in UC4 feels a lot more varied and briskly paced, not to mention more compelling from an art direction standpoint.

Like MiamiWesker said, though, the game's shortcoming in terms of pacing is having no meaningful gameplay substitute for the non-shooter sections that comprise the bulk of the game (or at least the 12 chapters I've done so far — maybe it gets much better).

EDIT: I meant MiamiWesker, not Riposte. I'm confused by the Wesker avatars, lol.

 

[Drencrom]

Amazing game, I do not have a problem with the pacing per say in the beginning of the game but there should be "more" to the downtime than there is at times.

 

[GalacticMouse]

No wonder I found the story so dull / uninspired. They started from an intrinsically dull concept.

I felt like they had the tone all wrong throughout the game. They gave Nate so many reasons not to be adventuring, or not to be enjoying the adventuring, when they should have been the doing the opposite.

It's a shame, but it's my least favourite Uncharted plot. At least it was clearly intentional.

Maybe it's just where I'm at in my life, but I found this way more relatable than the more tropey

Spoiler

"greed is all consuming and bad"

subplot. I like the idea that Nate is struggling with "what could have been" and I think it's something many people go through as they've started to settle into a routine.

I liked that Elena was pushing him to take the job. She knew who she married. The issue IS Nate, and you feel like Nate underestimated his wife, who in the end saves him and says "you should have included me. I could always hold my own".

I love that he also says he didn't do it to protect her. He wanted to show her he had changed, but she never asked that of him. He had these false expectations based on his own thoughts.

Loved their dynamic.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's an interesting look at marriage and relationships from people that clearly deal with similar pressures in their own life. Neil has certainly talked about balancing his life with his career/passion and it's apparent that he poured a lot of that into this script. I also liked that Elena never felt like a roadblock for Nate. When he

Spoiler

lied to her

I was frustrated with him. When he

Spoiler

said all the wrong things in Madagascar,

I could relate to how he was internalizing everything. It was never her causing the problem.

The game is an excellent character study and, while it's certainly a departure from prior games, it's exactly how I would want Nate's story to conclude.

 

[fastmower]

No wonder I found the story so dull / uninspired. They started from an intrinsically dull concept.

I felt like they had the tone all wrong throughout the game. They gave Nate so many reasons not to be adventuring, or not to be enjoying the adventuring, when they should have been the doing the opposite.

It's a shame, but it's my least favourite Uncharted plot. At least it was clearly intentional.

The themes and metaphors Neil talks about are a little masturbatory. Overall, I had a great time with my first play through, but I think the game does not inspire the desire to replay (unlike UC2 and TLOU).

 

[SomTervo]

It really is like the only truly puzzling bit of the game. Why there? It's weird because it's not even a particularly important part of the game to flash forward to. With Uncharted 2 it made more sense just because it was like.... the ultimate low point of the journey. It makes sense to start out with injured Drake hanging from a train car, then cut back to a sunny beach. There's a tension when you know that shit is going to horribly wrong but you're watching it anyway.

In Uncharted 4 it's just like... a boat chase. Without any context it seems like a random and meaningless moment. It might make more sense if they returned to the boat AFTER the orphanage flashback, but they don't, so there's no real symmetry to any of it.

It's the entertainment aspect. It's there to ensure the first moment hooks the viewer/player. Just like how Gilligan, who mastered the formula of TV thrillers with X Files and Breaking Bad, says your opening few seconds are the few that will make or break whether someone is grabbed by a story.

Basically it's about pacing. Hit the viewer/player with a thrill. Start on a peak. That hooks them in. Then run that thrill off and let it simmer down - take a step back and start the story where it really begins.

 

[joanot]

His comments on the slow pacing is kind of disturbing to me. I don't think the start was the issue, there was some genuinely great small gameplay moments that engage the player into the story very well. The bad is the rest of the game that refuses to keep the action going for who knows what reason. He wanted to cut back the gun battles, ok then replace it with something good. Walking around and pressing x on highlighted objects is not compelling. The platforming, exploration and puzzles were not improved enough to become the main focus from the gun battles which were improved tremendously.

From a game design position I don't get it, let's improve the best aspect of the game, the action, but then let's put less of it in the game. Isn't the purpose of a game designer to create the best gaming experience possibles. Telling a story is great and all but not at the expense of what makes games great. His comment about it being ok to lose some of those people is bothersome. He rather have people that want to watch a game rather than play it? It doesn't have to be shoot shoot bang bang for 15 hours straight but it doesn't have to be this shoot stop, shoot stop, and a conscious choice to put less setpieces, less action.

(I still loved U4 but I felt it could have been an all time greatest game ever like U2 but the pacing took it out of that category for me, shame)

I totally agree with this, he certainly prioritizes narrative elements over gameplay.

 

[CHC]

I see the idea behind it. Like Uncharted 2 opens with the train, its a crazy situation that has you asking, ok how the hell did he get here, what is this, how did this happen. And its a bit of excitement added to an opening thats gonna be slow because they have a lot of plot to set up.

Uncharted 2's version is more successful because it's the lowest point of the adventure, when everything has gone catastrophically wrong. It's immediately apparent. Then it cuts back to a sunny beach where they're all like "what could go wrong" and the line is just perfect because we, the player, have already seen exactly what goes wrong.

 

[theecakee]

Huh, I thought GAF was almost unanimously favorable to Uncharted 4, I didn't see much negative comments on the beginning.

So does this mean Neil Druckmann is reading this right now possibly?

...hi Neil

 

[Riozaki]

Hey, Neil. I hope you read this post.

I'm huge fan of you and your writings. For me, TLOU is the best game I have ever played and I don't mind playing it over and over and over again.

Uncharted 4 is a truly masterpiece. However, the problem with the pacing most of us talking about is that there are so much cooldown even after a cooldown chapter. I enjoyed the beginning of the game so much and I didn't mind how slow it is because I know it building up the story.

I also hate how UC1 and UC3 throw wave after wave of enemies on you. The perfect balance I think is like TLOU and UC2. Where you have wall to wall heavy action and big set pieces but after that you have slow parts where you can talk and do random things.

The perfect balance is to have a cooldown after huge action, not a cooldown after a cooldown. Take the main story of TLOU as an example.

Finally, I can't wait for your next game and I hope it is TLOU2. Also, search for the perfect balance and can't wait for the DLC to see what you've learned from UC4.

 

[CHC]

Oh man Neil should never have admitted to browsing GAF. All these love letters..... haha

 

[thetrin]

It really is like the only truly puzzling bit of the game. Why there? It's weird because it's not even a particularly important part of the game to flash forward to. With Uncharted 2 it made more sense just because it was like.... the ultimate low point of the journey. It makes sense to start out with injured Drake hanging from a train car, then cut back to a sunny beach. There's a tension when you know that shit is going to horribly wrong but you're watching it anyway.

In Uncharted 4 it's just like... a boat chase. Without any context it seems like a random and meaningless moment. It might make more sense if they returned to the boat AFTER the orphanage flashback, but they don't, so there's no real symmetry to any of it.

In a narrative sense, it makes perfect sense. It's structurally how stories are told. Start with pacing, even for a few minutes, that exhibits what the meat of the story is meant to be like.

It's supposed to tell the reader/player what to expect in pacing. It's why action movies start with an action packed prologue and then quiet down.

Not all stories work this way, but the stuff after that is so slowly paced that I think U4 needed it. It actually enriches what comes after it.

 

[mrklaw]

Yeah, I understand the logic; I just don't think it was very successful.

I think it was just one too many nested flashbacks. Just the cold open would have been too short I think, but just the

Spoiler

prison

section might have been a little slow or undramatic.

Personally I'd have started in the

Spoiler

prison

. That would have left the

Spoiler

shipwreck

as a nice surprise. But I did like how the weather

Spoiler

starts to change on the island level, which foreshadows the boat chase

so you start to piece it together around that point.

 

[mishakoz]

Love this interview and how candidly he talks about what was cut, it's something I don't think a lot of people talk about. That scene with the crane must have been the set-piece he was talking about. But hearing stuff like how the snowball fight tonally didn't work is fascinating, interesting because I think it would have worked with Chloe or Flynn. There is just this awkward weight to Sam and Nate's interactions that you can tell makes everything a little less jokey.

 

[j-wood]

His view on the "nathan drake is a serial killer" is 100% on point and correct.

 

[PR_rambo]

Neil, if you read this, YOU THE REAL MVP FOR THAT TROPHY.

Such a dumb criticism, one that a vocal minority, with emphasis on minority, seemingly applies exclusively to Uncharted. Most likely because they simply don't like thing.

 

[SSReborn]

Oh man Neil should never have admitted to browsing GAF. All these love letters..... haha

lol i thought it was well known that he browsed GAF by now?

 

[illmatic22]

Neil gives no fucks about the ludonarrative dissonance nitpicking. Bless him.