Support NeoGAF

[dragonelite]

Not a hard sell.

PC gaming still has the stigma of having a high barrier for entry. Regardless how complicated consoles have become, they are still seen as plug and play.

I know a lot of colleagues that wont game on pc, after working 8 hours on a desktop
they just want to sit down and chill on a couch.

Edit: I myself have no issues with PC gaming.

 

[mavericktopgun]

When did you get your Xbox One ?

2014. Ok in 2017 I'll have it 3 years BUT that is nothing. How often do you buy a new pc? I had/have my PS3 and Xbox 360 for 10 years now.

 

[icespide]

PC or laptop?

either

 

[etta]

Remember this guys? This E3 will be insane.

IF THE XBOX ONE SLIM IS DESIGNED AFTER THIS GOAT CONSOLE DESIGN I WILL LITERALLY PASS OUT FROM CRYING

 

[DeepEnigma]

What games has one person running at half the FPS as another in the same server on Xbox? Lol

Things can be adjusted on the back-end through tick-rate. Just as they do on the PC, for those running around 144hz versus 60hz.

And why are you concerned? Most multiplayer games are 60fps on the Xbox/PS now, it is not like the new Xbox/PS will run the multiplayer beyond 60fps, el oh el.

These are not fucking phones!

You are correct, they are not. But all 3 console makers are sure as shit chasing that ecosystem.

And yes, graphics cards would be a better comparison.

However, in the grand scheme of things, all tech is iterative, consoles have yet to join the fray. About time they do, if they hope to survive for the long run. People want to keep their shit in the same ecosystem. Mobile and PC gaming more than echoes this from the rooftops.

 

[kiguel182]

Phones basically don't require anything everything is built in the phone, while lower tiers are basically for phone calls, and light surfing, the upper tiers are strong and will likely last 2 years or so before they really become obsolete, and half the software runs the same across multiple devices in that time span. Half the games also run about the same in the equal amount of time.

You just described why the situation is the same.

You buy a PS4, it will be top tier for 3 years, then a new one is released and half the games will run fine on your PS4 (the less demanding ones) and others will have some compromises compared to the new PS4. Rinse and repeat.

It's the EXACT same thing you just described and how an Iphone works.

The old PS4's will be phased out with time (there won't be 4 PS4s in the market the same way there aren't 4 iPhones in the market).

This is not that hard to understand.

 

[icespide]

IF THE XBOX ONE SLIM IS DESIGNED AFTER THIS GOAT CONSOLE DESIGN I WILL LITERALLY PASS OUT FROM CRYING

just give me real buttons for fucks sake

 

[Voost Kain]

These are not fucking phones!

These are consoles that play $60+ software not 1.99-4.99 app/games.

And we are dealing with things like resolution, frame rates being different by possible large margins.

And if lets say down the road a major AAA game runs like ass on older PS4, than Neo you will have a fucking wild fire that could spread, once developers want to work on the newer hardware down the line.

Just because Sony's mandate now says you have to target PS4, doesn't mean it wont change in the future which has happened to an extent with different versions of games.

Not to mention there may be some games, try as they might, they can't get to run well in comparisons regardless of mandate.
Also don't forget consoles are expensive, we are having R&D, flight, retailers, etc. all over a again every couple of years? Imagine 2 PS3's in a row, then where will Sony be?

 

[kiguel182]

Devs are already making games with TONS of configuration for PCs. This won't be different.

It's all about the SDK and how the high-level programming scales. And I'm pretty sure people at MS and Sony have thought about that and have everything in place to make this as smooth as possible.

 

[AmyS]

2014. Ok in 2017 I'll have it 3 years BUT that is nothing. How often do you buy a new pc? I had/have my PS3 and Xbox 360 for 10 years now.

I hear you. I got my PS4 at launch, 2 1/2 years ago. I don't having a gaming PC now, and almost feel like I won't anytime soon. I want the PS4K and Xbox Scorpio.

 

[icespide]

Not to mention there may be some games, try as they might, they can't get to run well in comparisons regardless of mandate.
Also don't forget consoles are expensive, we are having R&D, flight, retailers, etc. all over a again every couple of years? Imagine 2 PS3's in a row, then where will Sony be?

smart phones are more expensive than consoles

 

[……forgetit]

Xbox ready PCs finally coming.

 

[Ahasverus]

The biggest issue is that development cycles this gen have gotten so long that a game that is developed to take full advantage of the Xbox Scorpio will be a generation behind by the time it releases since the console cycles are becoming shorter while development cycles are becoming longer.

It isn't comparable to smartphone release cycles because those devices are defined only by the hardware, whereas consoles are defined by the software. New consoles grant new capabilities for developers to use with games. If new consoles are being released before developers can even grasp the new features of the previous iteration fully, what's the point? They aren't being used to their full advantage and simply cannot be because of a lack of time.

Agreed,

I'm a firm believer in that gaming is not sustainable in its current form. The development cycles are just too damn long and need increasingly more expensive qualified workers. Meanwhile the console makers change the rules every few years, the prices are up AND the sales are dwindling.

 

[Camp1nCarl]

Despite my personal opinion on what I think of this situation, it will definitely be interesting to see what the console gaming market becomes.

 

[kiguel182]

smart phones are more expensive than consoles

This conversation seems to be in a universe where the iPhone never existed. It's crazy.

It's like there isn't already a precedent for this.

 

[gofreak]

2 questions:


-why do we have 2 PS4 Variants and 2 Xbox One Variants in 2017?
-why didn't they put BETTER specs in both launch consoles?
?

How much would a Neo, or Scorpio, have cost in 2013? 399 was a must have target...

I think in terms of development effort, the added burden probably won't fall across all ends of the pipeline. It will probably be felt most in testing and QA. I'm not a dev, but the kind of enhancements the new machines have over the old are likely to be most often in the realm of turning dials through the API ( on things like res and other iq improvements) rather than a whole separate code path.

 

[mavericktopgun]

I hear you. I got my PS4 at launch, 2 1/2 years ago. I don't having a gaming PC now, and almost feel like I won't anytime soon. I want the PS4K and Xbox Scorpio.

I want them both too. For VR and the better performance.

 

[Voost Kain]

You just described why the situation is the same.

You buy a PS4, it will be top tier for 3 years, then a new one is released and half the games will run fine on your PS4 (the less demanding ones) and others will have some compromises compared to the new PS4. Rinse and repeat.

It's the EXACT same thing you just described and how an Iphone works.

The old PS4's will be phased out with time (there won't be 4 PS4s in the market the same way there aren't 4 iPhones in the market).

This is not that hard to understand.

By ignoring most of my posts you prove my point half the defender are crystal crazy.

For one, they are not tiers, they are different machines, with different tools, with different hardware, some may even get additional features to add to that.

The only difference between Iphones is hardware within a "cycle" of iphones.

Also there are more than 4 Iphones in the market NOW.

I can take an Iphone 5s or a regular 6, and run my apps, my games, my other software, etc. the same way ad the SE, and the S.

I can have a Elephone S3, a Leagoo Shark, a Samsung 6, Blackberry Priv, and a LG G5 , do the same exact thing for an extended period of time, even with "os changes".

Out the gate the PS4k, and PS4 won't do that.

 

[family_guy]

Not to mention there may be some games, try as they might, they can't get to run well in comparisons regardless of mandate.
Also don't forget consoles are expensive, we are having R&D, flight, retailers, etc. all over a again every couple of years? Imagine 2 PS3's in a row, then where will Sony be?

PS3 was sold at a loss and had free online. PS4 is sold at a profit and has subscription fees. I don't see them being the same. Also since it's not drastically changing architecture, I'd imagine R&D on iterative models is nowhere near as expensive as the traditional model of a new system every 5-6 years.

 

[icespide]

By ignoring most of my posts you prove my point half the defender are crystal crazy.

For one, they are not tiers, they are different machines, with different tools, with different hardware, some may even get additional features to add to that.

The only difference between Iphones is hardware within a "cycle" of iphones.

Also there are more than 4 Iphones in the market NOW.

I can take an Iphone 5s or a regular 6, and run my apps, my games, my other software, etc. the same way ad the SE, and the S.

I can have a Elephone S3, a Leagoo Shark, a Samsung 6, Blackberry Priv, and a LG G5 , do the same exact thing for an extended period of time, even with "os changes".

Out the gate the PS4k, and PS4 won't do that.

according to the rumors, the PS4K and PS4 literally will do that

so many things that you are describing are either true already for smart phones, true for consoles, or its what Sony and Microsoft is trying to change to make true for consoles

 

[Chris1]

Things can be adjusted on the back-end through tick-rate. Just as they do on the PC, for those running around 144hz versus 60hz.

And why are you concerned? Most multiplayer games are 60fps on the Xbox now, it is not like the new Xbox will run the multiplayer beyond 60fps, el oh el.

Idk what that first part means but you're forgetting Black Ops 3, how well does that run on last gen? that's the situation we're headed in once developers stop giving a shit about current xbox one and just put the game out for some quick dough once the Neo/Scoprio install base takes off.

Destiny is 30FPS and a FPS, I don't actually play Destiny, but it's the first one that popped into my head.

If MS came out and said all games will be mandatory to run at the same FPS and the Scorpio is only for graphical improvements, I'd be fully on board but they aren't going to do that

 

[DeepEnigma]

PS3 was sold at a loss and had free online. PS4 is sold at a profit and has subscription fees. I don't see them being the same. Also since it's not drastically changing architecture, I'd imagine R&D on iterative models is nowhere near as expensive as the traditional model of a new system every 5-6 years.

Bingo!

 

[kinggroin]

I also know a lot of colleagues that wont game on pc, after working 8 hours on a desktop
they just want to sit down and chill on a couch.

Misconception, but again, it doesn't matter. PC gaming is seen as desktop gaming first and foremost. Ain't nobody got time for that (I do, but I'm niche)

 

[ironcreed]

Despite my personal opinion on what I think of this situation, it will definitely be interesting to see what the console gaming market becomes.

I hear you. I will just sit back and observe while continuing to upgrade every 5 years or so. No way in hell am I going to buy new consoles every year or two, lol. That is not even enough time to make a good game, let alone enjoy the new systems I just bought.

 

[AmFreak]

They have a cheaper entry point I guess is better said. Altought you don't have to buy the 4K.

You also don't have to spend 800€ for a pc
400-500€ was enough at the ps4 launch to get something more powerful.

 

[EvB]

Devs are already making games with TONS of configuration for PCs. This won't be different.

It's all about the SDK and how the high-level programming scales. And I'm pretty sure people at MS and Sony have thought about that and have everything in place to make this as smooth as possible.

Yep, just look how impressed everyone has been with the auto scaling configuration of Forza Apex

Halo 5 is half way there already, it's resolution is dynamic, run it on a faster machine and you'll hit the 1080p more often

 

[Strootman]

People overreacting as always.

If they release the new xbox in 2017, xbox one cycle would be 4 years, just like the first xbox. Nothing new here.

Sony will release ps4 neo in 2017 too to counter the xbox scorpio.

 

[NervousXtian]

Occulus Support... I'm totally in now.

 

[Durante]

I also know a lot of colleagues that wont game on pc, after working 8 hours on a desktop
they just want to sit down and chill on a couch.

And as we all know, PC gaming is incompatible with couches.

 

[kiguel182]

By ignoring most of my posts you prove my point half the defender are crystal crazy.

For one, they are not tiers, they are different machines, with different tools, with different hardware, some may even get additional features to add to that.

The only difference between Iphones is hardware within a "cycle" of iphones.

Also there are more than 4 Iphones in the market NOW.

I can take an Iphone 5s or a regular 6, and run my apps, my games, my other software, etc. the same way ad the SE, and the S.

I can have a Elephone S3, a Leagoo Shark, a Samsung 6, Blackberry Priv, and a LG G5 , do the same exact thing for an extended period of time, even with "os changes".

Out the gate the PS4k, and PS4 won't do that.

No, they aren't different machines. They have different hardware but they are running the same OS, the same sdk the same tools. It's all the same except one will be more powerful or have some exclusive features like, you guessed it, an iPhone.

Also, there are three iPhone specs in the market right now. 6, 6s and SE. Four if you count the bigger screen as a different device. They are handled just fine.

You are just seeing this entirely wrong. This will also do the same thing (playing games) until the games outpace them, which should be 6 or 7 years like it was previous generation.

I don't think you get it.

 

[DeepEnigma]

You're forgetting Black Ops 3, how well does that run on last gen? that's the situation we're headed in once developers stop giving a shit about current xbox one and just put the game out for some quick dough once the Neo/Scoprio install base takes off.

Destiny is 30FPS and a FPS, I don't actually play Destiny, but it's the first one that popped into my head.

If MS came out and said all games will be mandatory to run at the same FPS and the Scorpio is only for graphical improvements, I'd be fully on board but they aren't going to do that

And Activision was called out for it, and you do not play against 360/PS3 players on the PS4/One, so that throws your concern argument out the window with this.

This will be the SAME DISC. The same hardware ecosystem (x86/64), the same updated development environment (SDK), etc.. It is more akin to compare to PC gaming now, only more polished due to lower end access, and less brute forcing due to millions of combinations.

Do not bring in BO3, it is disingenuous to your original 'concern.

 

[Brinbe]

Smart. This is the path they should've taken all along. I think there's real value and place for Xbox/W10 boxes in everyone's living rooms. Steamboxes had the right sort of idea, but SteamOS wasn't the right path to take with those. Having that Windows 10 functionality/versatility PAIRED with that Steam living room interface helps a lot. That's probably the way forward for many people.

 

[Inuhanyou]

It was easy to see that Phil was pretty much lying about the 'i don't like XB1.5' type talk. They are going for the exact same concept.

Now, with both publishers pushing this, i wonder what will happen to game design and the stability of the development process. It is a question for sure now that each publisher has standards placed on developers to ensure their own boxes get forwards and backwards compatibility

 

[Dice]

There's nothing to say that an OR supporting Xbox would need the same spec CPU as the regular PC min requirements - OR support doesn't necessarily mean transparent support for existing OR software. If they strike a deal, I'm pretty sure Oculus will happily support another Xbox specific runtime performance profile, at least for this revision, if its specs were materially short of the current PC reqs. Maybe in the future they'd unify them, but it's not strictly necessary for this kind of support to happen IMO.

That's basically what I was saying. I probably should have been more clear in my wording, but what I meant is that "revamped architecture" doesn't mean it has to be crazy powerful, because just getting an Xbox to function well enough with VR would require a "revamp" rather than just slapping on a new GPU, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'll be really powerful so as to support PC-level game performance/features.

P.S. Jesus this thread is moving fast.

 

[etta]

I hear you. I will just sit back and observe while continuing to upgrade every 5 years or so. No way in hell am I going to buy new consoles every year or two, lol. That is not even enough time to make a good game, let alone enjoy the new systems I just bought.

Iterative consoles will no way in hell release every year. Even every two years is highly unlikely. Every three I think is the minimum they can do it without potentially disturbing the market or upsetting their customers. Four years would be my sweet spot but I'm fine with three.
But yea I will probably only upgrade Xbox every iteration, and the PlayStation every other iteration since it's pretty much only for those sweet exclusives.

 

[kiguel182]

You also don't have to spend 800€ for a pc
400-500€ was enough at the ps4 launch to get something more powerful.

True but he was talking about outpacing both iterations and for that you would have to spend more than 400 euros.

Still, the reason I don't buy a PC isn't even price primarily.

 

[Terbinator]

And as we all know, PC gaming is incompatible with couches.

Heh, I'm suffering from this atm, sort of, although it's more peripheral vision rather than the couch.

 

[mavericktopgun]

It was easy to see that Phil was pretty much lying about the 'i don't like XB1.5' type talk. They are going for the exact same concept.

Now, with both publishers pushing this, i wonder what will happen to game design and the stability of the development process. It is a question for sure

Perhaps it's not 1.5. perhaps it's 2.0

 

[Trogdor1123]

according to the rumors, the PS4K and PS4 literally will do that

so many things that you are describing are either true already for smart phones, true for consoles, or its what Sony and Microsoft is trying to change to make true for consoles

That was my understanding as well. I'm not really understanding the argument against this. The one about, I don't want to spend money is fair but the rest don't make sense to me

 

[16BitNova]

My favorite hobby is changing. And I don't think I like it. Will these iterations be every year? That will suck. I hope for at least a 3 year cycle, at least...

And how many iterations before your supposed backwards/forwards compatible game doesn't work on your older iteration because it doesn't meet spec requirements? And I hope it changes all the specs and quality of your games automatically. All those configuration settings from shadows to AA to lighting etc etc is why I can't game on PC. That shit makes my head hurt. I want to pick up and play the experience developers want me to play, not configure every game for my console for 30 minutes before I can start.

And no more exclusives for the Xbox console huh. Well I don't see how their console department will survive for long against Sony then. Exclusives were a trademark of gaming since I was a kid. Knowing you are going to get some experiences on your specific console that you can't get anywhere else, you felt good with your purchase.

Spending $500 bucks or so every year or 2 ($1000+ if you buy every console like me) is going to fucking suck. This isn't console gaming. Might as well just kill it all and have PC be all that's left since that's basically what they're doing with this new format.

 

[jelly]

It's probably easier for devs with the iterative approach which would be a small jump rather than a leap like we had before. It won't be a shock to the system anymore, everyone just rides the wave at their own pace.

 

[Pelagic]

Does anybody think it is possible for Xbox 2017 to include a substantially more powerful cpu than the PS4 Neo?

It is the least impressive part of the hardware for that console and might keep it from hitting 60 fps in some cpu-intensive games.

I'm not following tech closely enough to know, if say Zen or other cpu's will be ready for next year and/or is cost-efficient enough. I really hope though.

The PS Neo is getting a great gpu, but still a weak Jaguar cpu for compatibility issues. I don't want to buy any more compromised tech if I'm buying a mid-gen upgrade!

 

[icespide]

Does anybody think it is possible for Xbox 2017 to include a substantially more powerful cpu than the PS4 Neo?

It is the least impressive part of the hardware for that console and might keep it from hitting 60 fps in some cpu-intensive games.

I'm not following tech closely enough to know, if say Zen or other cpu's will be ready for next year and/or is cost-efficient enough. I really hope though.

The PS Neo is getting a great gpu, but still a weak Jaguar cpu for compatibility issues. I don't want to buy any more compromised tech if I'm buying a mid-gen upgrade!

CPU seems to be where they are keeping the costs down

 

[Markoman]

Despite my personal opinion on what I think of this situation, it will definitely be interesting to see what the console gaming market becomes.

Me, too. I can't see this working for the big three for a long period of time, though.
This is not the beginning of an era but more a transition period.
Consumers already have gotten less price/value this gen:
1. Consoles sold at profit > underpowered
2. paid online

Now consumers are confronted with way more options whilst there is no evidence that the console market is growing overall. I'm repeating myself here: in 5 years one of the current console manufacturers will not be around anymore.

 

[EvB]

Idk what that first part means but you're forgetting Black Ops 3, how well does that run on last gen? that's the situation we're headed in once developers stop giving a shit about current xbox one and just put the game out for some quick dough once the Neo/Scoprio install base takes off.

Isn't black ops 3 literally an entirely different game on 360?

It's basically like the way you'd always get a GBA version of multiplatform games that were on PS2 and Xbox

 

[LordBaztion]

It was easy to see that Phil was pretty much lying about the 'i don't like XB1.5' type talk. They are going for the exact same concept.

I think that quote is more headed to, not making a small increment to the console, instead a big one that feels like a Xbox 2.

 

[Chris1]

And Activision was called out for it, and you do not play against 360/PS3 players on the PS4/One, so that throws your concern argument out the window with this.

This will be the SAME DISC. The same hardware ecosystem (x86/64), the same updated development environment (SDK), etc.. It is more akin to compare to PC gaming now, only more polished due to lower end access, and less brute forcing due to millions of combinations.

Do not bring in BO3, it is disingenuous to your original 'concern.

Yea and that's why that's "fine" with me, but it's not fine to stick 360 players into XB1 which this route will end up doing, because the playerbases aren't split between XB1 and Scorpio.

It's more akin to compare to PC gaming, something I don't do, something I have no interest in and something that offers an advantage over others with less powerful hardware which I do not want. If I wanted that, I'd PC game but I don't, so I don't.

 

[ironcreed]

Iterative consoles will no way in hell release every year. Even every two years is highly unlikely. Every three I think is the minimum they can do it without potentially disturbing the market or upsetting their customers. Four years would be my sweet spot but I'm fine with three.
But yea I will probably only upgrade Xbox every iteration, and the PlayStation every other iteration since it's pretty much only for those sweet exclusives.

That would make more sense for sure. But 5 years is still about the earliest that I would ever begin to even consider upgrading. When I drop $400+ on a system, I am going to make it last.

 

[Alpha Phoenix]

I think the point to take away from this is we are getting away from "generations". We are going to start getting upgrades you can goose to purchase every few years with better hardware and these upgrades will all share the same library because they will be required to play on all hardware.

I really like where this is going to be honest.

While I understand the reasoning behind this, I don't think it's very practical with the console market.

 

[Chris1]

Isn't black ops 3 literally an entirely different game on 360?

It's basically like the way you'd always get a GBA version of multiplatform games that were on PS2 and Xbox

Was talking about the frame rate differences in multiplayer, it's 30FPS on 360 but 60FPS on XB1 because they stopped caring about last gen and simply pushed it out for a quick cash grab, what's to say they don't do the same thing here once the Scorpio install base takes off and they start focusing on that more?