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[burn this down]

WARNING: UNMARKED SPOILERS FOR ALL MAINLINE ACE ATTORNEY GAMES

After putting it off for months and months, I finally got around to playing and beating all of the game.

I guess a bit of background for me and the series. I bought the first game on a whim about 3 years ago and really dug it. Then about a year later I bought Justice for All and Trials and Tribulations and absolutely fell in love with the games. I thought the writing was fun, the characters were memorable and likable, and the cases and twists were cleverly thought out. Late last year I'd decided that I'd give Apollo Justice and Dual Destinies a shot. I'd initially heard some less-than-stellar things about them but was interested enough to bite. To my surprise I actually enjoyed Apollo Justice quite a bit. I didn't think that it was as good as the original trilogy; some characters were grating and forgettable, some twists (like long lost half-siblings? Really?) were kinda odd and out of left field, but overall it was ok and it felt like Ace Attorney.

So, here I am having just finished Dual Destinies last night and boy do I have some Mixed Feelings™. First things first, I did not like Athena. Like, at all. For some reason she just didn't feel right? Like all the other characters I felt had some chemistry with each other, but she just didn't. The best comparison I can make is like when a long running show adds a new member to cast to change things up and boost ratings, but they end up feeling like the odd one out and the viewer doesn't really like them. It was kinda like that. The cases were kind of boring, I didn't connect with any of the characters, I felt like the writing took a dip (there's a bondage joke in Turnabout Academy). I mean, one of the cases was literally just high school drama. Please god no. I just wasn't having a good time. Until the fourth case, Cosmic Turnabout. Suddenly everything clicked. The characters were fun, the writing was tight, the twists were kinda cool. And then it got better in Turnabout for Tomorrow! And there was very little of Athena! It was fun! What a novelty! Coming off of such lackluster cases, I couldn't help but wonder where that kind of writing was the whole game! There were parts I could do without though, like they could stand to say "dark age of the law" a little less. They could have kept it as a concept, that was fine! But they could have kept it without everyone saying the same phrase over. And over. And over. And I'm not sure how I felt about the culprit behind all of it being Fulbright. The bumbling detective was the illusive puppet master behind it all? Yeah, not sure about that. There was no build up towards it, it kind of just comes out of nowhere. It's kind of similar to the twist in the final case of Justice for All, where Matt Engarde goes from clueless pretty boy actor to an evil mastermind. The difference is that with Engarde we got a slow build up to it. The more we found out, the more suspicious he became, so the reveal that he was the culprit was surprising, but you could see how we'd gotten to that point. With Fulbright, it just one little detail and we're immediately thrust into "HE'S THE PHANTOM". Additionally, the "Did Athena kill her mom!?" part felt like a retread of "Did Edgeworth kill his dad!?", but the execution was alright on that, so I give it a pass.

Gameplay was kind of all over the place for me. I wasn't a huge fan of how I was restricted to examining certain things at certain times. The Ace Attorney games were already pretty linear, but putting limits on examining things made the game feel like a straight line. But at the same time it kept me from getting lost, which happened plenty of times in the first four games. I think overall though I preferred the freedom. Additionally, the 3 different gimmicks (Psych-Locks, Perceiving, and the Mood Matrix) all felt lacking. I think part of the problem had to do with you constantly switching between different protagonists. As a result, there wasn't a lot of any of them and they were few and far between. I understand keeping them in for consistency sake, but keeping them so far apart from each, from a player perspective, made them feel more gimmicky than they already were. But overall it was Ace Attorney gameplay. It's a visual novel, the main point isn't really the gameplay, it's more about the story and putting the piece together.

Tl;dr - Dual Destinies was an odd experience of not enjoying myself at all, then enjoying myself a lot. It definitely ranks at the bottom of the series for me. What did everyone else think though?

EDIT: Oh my lord, I'm sorry, I did not mean to write a novel. It just kinda happened.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

For some reason, I get the feeling that you didn't play the DLC case.

 

[Salsa]

I loved it

but I see the 'flaws' and how many people couldnt get into it as much

DLC case is the best case, so play it.


AA is probably my favorite series tho so I was mostly just giddy at the production values and all

but I replayed it once and it held up. It's a lot more streamlined and all but I think it makes up for it in other aspects.

 

[burn this down]

For some reason, I get the feeling that you didn't play the DLC case.

DLC case is the best case, so play it.

I'll get to eventually. I need to get my 3DS set up so I can keep homebrew and access the eShop, and Ace Attorney Investigations has been sitting on my shelf still sealed for about 6 months. Still, nice to know that it seems that there's another good case in there.

 

[Auxiliary Bro]

OP, I feel you 100%. I actually feel like the third case is tied for worst with turnabout big top, and I still cringe thinking about the high school drama and friendship. The true villain of that case was so obvious, I wasn't sure who the game was trying to fool either by trying to really make us think it's O'connor. Oh, big surprise! It's the creepy teacher that has a completely different way of thinking to the main characters! The 'conclusive' evidence was just such a joke too.

There's just lots of bits where there's some really bad dialogue, and I can't really tell if it's a translation error or if it was really that bad to begin with. Someone going by @BoltGSR happened to do a little runthrough of the game again recently on Twitter, and they captured this little gem: https://twitter.com/BoltGSR/status/734284515380629504

EDIT: for the sake of saying it too, I did also enjoy case 4 quite a bit! I felt like the game was really picking up again. I didn't really feel that with case 5 though.

 

[Modest Mauser]

I liked Athena, but I agree with her not fitting well into the game. The original plan was for Apollo Justice to be the start of a new trilogy, but they sort of abandon that and shove Athena in and bring Phoenix back. The game loses focus IMO with all these protagonists.

The final case and DLC case were great, but overall the writing did take a dip, probably since Takumi wasn't on board for this one. I hope he comes back to the mainline series since the spinoff games he's involved with apparently won't be localized.

AA is probably my favorite series tho so I was mostly just giddy at the production values and all

Yeah, one thing I always have to compliment AA5 on is how great it looks and how flawlessly they executed the transition to 3D.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

At the time, Ace Attorney 5 was equal to AA1 for me, with AA3 being my favorite, but a lot of that was due to its production values compared to previous titles; still gotta replay Dual Destinies before SoJ.

"Dark Age of the Law" was a gigantic joke. There's something to that concept that they could have pulled off well. Maybe tying it back to Manfred's corruption and 1-5, or even tying it more heavily around the circumstances behind Apollo Justice and Phoenix's downfall. But whatever they were going for with Blackquill being the crux of the theme fell really flat. Repeating "Dark Age of the Law" constantly won't somehow actually make it relevant; absolutely none of the dire circumstances things were apparently in was actually felt, and nothing about the conclusion felt that it would be resolved (whatever it was).

I liked Athena, and I loved the dynamic between the shifting perspectives of the protagonists. I don't really feel like Athena lacked anything particular in her interactions with others compared to Apollo. I thought her ability could have been used better and integrated into the courtroom scenes better.

The final case and DLC case were great, but overall the writing did take a dip, probably since Takumi wasn't on board for this one. I hope he comes back to the mainline series since the spinoff games he's involved apparently won't be localized.

Don't see what it not being localized has to do with it. The game sold decently in Japan and the plan was for it to always be a sub-series alongside mainline Ace Attorney, so Japan will be seeing at least one sequel to DGS that is very likely already in pre-production.

 

[TrueBlue]

Really enjoyed it when I played it, though I will say that the second and third cases are kinda lacking. The other cases plus the DLC one are well worth the price of admission.

Also disagree about Athena. I thought that she and Apollo were a great pair, they bounced off each other pretty well and had good chemistry. I thought she was pretty likeable as well, though I guess it depends on your tolerance for perpy characters. Her backstory is also quite tragic, which lends some weight to how she displays herself outwardly.

It was also cool seeing Apollo/Athena take the reins off Phoenix, even if they were the worst cases.

I will say though that the lack of investigative freedom and handholding is a bummer - glad they're addressing that in AA6. The mechanics for each attorney are also a little bit "too many cooks in the kitchen", but at least it makes them all feel unique.

All in all, I'd rate it third behind AA1 and AA3. I really do love them all though.

EDIT: I also think the plot was a bit hit and miss - the Dark Age of the Law not really amounting to much and AA4 being more or less completely ignored.

 

[GSR]

OP, I've actually been-

There's just lots of bits where there's some really bad dialogue, and I can't really tell if it's a translation error or if it was really that bad to begin with. Someone going by @BoltGSR happened to do a little runthrough of the game again recently on Twitter, and they captured this little gem: https://twitter.com/BoltGSR/status/734284515380629504

Welp!

But yeah, I just finished replaying AA5 in preparation for AA6 and to collect my thoughts for a full re-review. If you go back three years and dig up my posts from when the game first released in Japan, you're gonna see me gushing pretty hard - but man, time has not been kind to this game for me. That first playthrough was colored by the hype of "first mainline AA in years" and probably buffered a bit by the fact I was still in the middle of studying Japanese and so some of the writing went over my head.

This recent playthrough, though, yeesh. The game's not a total write-off - it's still an Ace Attorney game, and almost by definition that means it'll have some satisfying moments and puzzles. But there's a lot that just doesn't work, from the fact the writers seem to think the way to define a theme is to repeat it over and over ("the ends justify the means" and variations thereof appear 27 times in case three), the hilarious sidelining of the returning characters other than Phoenix/Apollo (also in case three: Trucy has a grand total of five lines outside of optional present/talk dialogue with her), the gimmick-heavy new characters (Starbuck's personality is literally "space similes and over-depressive sighs")... it's just not that good, honestly.

There's also the fact the game is playing everything as safe as possible. It feels like they wanted to make a totally new story... but they were too afraid to drop Apollo altogether, so look, he's back, but wait, people complained that Phoenix lost his badge in AA4, so don't worry, he's back and technically the main character, and, and, and...

I'm a little more optimistic for AA6, because if nothing else they seem to be more ambitious with the story they're telling and focusing on integrating the returning characters better. But AA5 has a lot of areas that need improving.

 

[Bakkus]

Liked parts of it but other parts made me pissed. In addition to the more common criticisms of this game i'll add one I don't see a lot. The last case and (there are spoilers here for the original trilogy too)

Spoiler

Edgeworth's return. They really messed up his character, after having one of the greatest character developments ever in the first game, he becomes your friend again in the last case of that game. In 1-5, 2-4 he is the prosecutor, but both of you are completely cooperating to find the truth, never does he patronize Phoenix. and in 3-5 he even takes over as attorney for Phoenix to help reach the truth. But now in 5-5 he's back to showing some traits of his patronizing smugness from 1-2 and 1-3, even calling Phoenix a bluffmaker. Sure he wasn't as bad as in those cases, but you could feel wibes from those in his behaviour. Oh and his Objection! voice was butchered aswell.

 

[Modest Mauser]

"Dark Age of the Law" was a gigantic joke. There's something to that concept that they could have pulled off well. Maybe tying it back to Manfred's corruption and 1-5, or even tying it more heavily around the circumstances behind Apollo Justice and Phoenix's downfall. But whatever they were going for with Blackquill being the crux of the theme fell really flat. Repeating "Dark Age of the Law" constantly won't somehow actually make it relevant; absolutely none of the dire circumstances things were apparently in was actually felt, and nothing about the conclusion felt that it would be resolved (whatever it was).

Agreed. Classic case of telling vs showing. They repeat that phrase so much but the setting seemed to more or less follow the status quo for the series. Felt awkward and poorly planned.

Don't see what it not being localized has to do with it. The game sold decently in Japan and the plan was for it to always be a sub-series alongside mainline Ace Attorney, so Japan will be seeing at least one sequel to DGS that is very likely already in pre-production.

I know, what I mean is that I hope he returns for the main series simply because I'll actually get to enjoy those games when they come to the West, unlike DGS and its probable sequel which I won't get to play myself.

 

[Septimus Prime]

I felt the DLC case was kind of weird in that you really need to play it before proceeding to the last two cases. Like, finishing the game and then playing it, it just felt so weird to run into

Spoiler

"Fulbright"

and pretend that everything was all good.

 

[GSR]

Liked parts of it but other parts made me pissed. In addition to the more common criticisms of this game i'll add one I don't see a lot. The last case and (there are spoilers here for the original trilogy too)

Spoiler

Edgeworth's return. They really messed up his character, after having one of the greatest character developments ever in the first game, he becomes your friend again in the last case of that game. In 1-5, 2-4 he is the prosecutor, but both of you are completely cooperating to find the truth, never does he patronize Phoenix. and in 3-5 he even takes over as attorney for Phoenix to help reach the truth. But now in 5-5 he's back to showing some traits of his patronizing smugness from 1-2 and 1-3, even calling Phoenix a bluffmaker. Sure he wasn't as bad as in those cases, but you could feel wibes from those in his behaviour. Oh and his Objection! voice was butchered aswell.

I actually thought Edgeworth was handled relatively well compared to the other returning characters, albeit a bit too focused on "if we clear Blackquill's name the dark age of the law will somehow instantly end!" And it's hard to put my finger on, but I feel like some of his dialogue was written to hint "hey, someday we'll do an Ace Attorney Investigations 3 filling in the seven-year gap!!!" or something like that.

 

[Salsa]

OP, I've actually been-



Welp!

But yeah, I just finished replaying AA5 in preparation for AA6 and to collect my thoughts for a full re-review. If you go back three years and dig up my posts from when the game first released in Japan, you're gonna see me gushing pretty hard - but man, time has not been kind to this game for me. That first playthrough was colored by the hype of "first mainline AA in years" and probably buffered a bit by the fact I was still in the middle of studying Japanese and so some of the writing went over my head.

This recent playthrough, though, yeesh. The game's not a total write-off - it's still an Ace Attorney game, and almost by definition that means it'll have some satisfying moments and puzzles. But there's a lot that just doesn't work, from the fact the writers seem to think the way to define a theme is to repeat it over and over ("the ends justify the means" and variations thereof appear 27 times in case three), the hilarious sidelining of the returning characters other than Phoenix/Apollo (also in case three: Trucy has a grand total of five lines outside of optional present/talk dialogue with her), the gimmick-heavy new characters (Starbuck's personality is literally "space similes and over-depressive sighs")... it's just not that good, honestly.

There's also the fact the game is playing everything as safe as possible. It feels like they wanted to make a totally new story... but they were too afraid to drop Apollo altogether, so look, he's back, but wait, people complained that Phoenix lost his badge in AA4, so don't worry, he's back and technically the main character, and, and, and...

I'm a little more optimistic for AA6, because if nothing else they seem to be more ambitious with the story they're telling and focusing on integrating the returning characters better. But AA5 has a lot of areas that need improving.

that's a bummer

I remember you quite liking it on release

 

[Salsa]

it's hard to argue it being worse than 4 and 2

to me at least

 

[GSR]

that's a bummer

I remember you quite liking it on release

And I did! The fact I'm critiquing it now doesn't magically change the fact I had a good time with it back then. (After all, an Ace Attorney game is always going to be the most fun on its first runthrough.) But with a little more distance and a playthrough in my native language the issues it does have jump out at me a lot more.

(Also to be frank, I think I'm just a little better at looking at games writing critically than I was then - I played DGS last summer, thought it was a big improvement on AA5, but was also able to spot the weak points right away. I'm guessing something similar will happen with me and AA6 in two weeks.)

 

[Modest Mauser]

it's hard to argue it being worse than 4 and 2

to me at least

I loved 4 myself. Worse than 2? I don't know. 2-1 and 2-3 are just the pits. The only case in 5 I thought was genuinely bad was the high school one.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

I know, what I mean is that I hope he returns for the main series simply because I'll actually get to enjoy those games when they come to the West, unlike DGS and its probable sequel which I won't get to play myself.

Ah, I see. Unfortunately, after AA4, I don't think Takumi will ever return to the mainline series.

it's hard to argue it being worse than 4 and 2

to me at least

Maybe AA4, but aside from the worst case in the Ace Attorney series, AA2 is fantastic and I could definitely hear out arguments for it being better than AA5. Its core theme and dramatic moments are much better, too.

 

[Auxiliary Bro]

OP, I've actually been-

Huh... ummmm lmao, sorry to steal your thunder there a bit. I'm a small time lurker here and had no idea you were a Gaffer. It was good fun to go through your tweets though, and I hope AA6 meets your optimism!

 

[Griss]

I enjoyed it a lot, but that was largely because of the new animations and the DLC case.

The main problem was that the overarching story didn't come together like the good AA games do and the final villain was a lame ass-pull that did nothing for me. Add the anime scenes (yikes), the terrible tengu case, and 'out-of-place' Athena and you had a game that fell short of the original trilogy.

That DLC case was gold, though. Gold.

 

[Noray]

Worst game in the series by a fair margin imo, or at least tied with Apollo for worst. I dislike all the new characters, mostly because they highlight how archetypal the main cast was. Apollo is basically Phoenix Jr, which makes Phoenix seem like a worse character simply for Apollo's presence. Same with all the plucky female sidekicks being like Maya but worse.

Also all the cases felt like they revolved around asspull twists, I don't know if my memories of the old games is just bad, but I never recall feeling like they were so artificially drawn out to reach a crazy climax.

Everyone keeps saying "play the DLC" but the original game's quality does not exactly inspire me to do that, and if you're saying they silo'd off the best case to be sold separately... I don't know how I feel about that.

 

[rekameohs]

The humor's at some of its best in this one, and the villain cross examinations are great, like in Case 3 and DLC. Primary story's a little weak, but I definitely think it's a lot better than AA4.

 

[R_thanatos]

The third case in AA5 was the case with the most potential ..and it's the case with the most wtf in term of story , but in the end didn't live up to the hype. It did rely Wayy too much on athena gimmick to proceed and i'm not ashamed that by the end i couldn't get properly the game logic.
And even with those complains case 3 is miles ahead the GOD AWEFULL case 2

Case 2 added NOTHING , did NOTHING , i don't think i could have been more BORED than if you made me listen to some concert music over and over and over ( damn you AA4 )

I hate case 2 and i'm sad that they dropped the ball so hard in term of writting in case 3.

The game was literrally saved by case 4&5

And without the fanservice in the dlc case , i would have hated that one too

 

[ryanfadholi]

For me, it seems that Phoenix Wright games usually start slow/boring/not that good at first, but is paid off by amazing late-game cases. I also don't really like T&T and Apollo Justice until the last cases.

Just finished Dual Destinies like last month or so and I feel kinda the same with you OP, I feel like I'm starting to like the game from the Cosmic Turnabout. The previous cases just don't interest me that much, the worst being the Tenma Taro case. The case is weird (Demonic crow?) and the characters aren't as quite likeable as the other cases imo. And I feel that the difficulty in this game is actually easier than previous games. You don't get penalty from the new minigames, and now there's the hint thing when you're stuck :/

For me, AA3 > AA1 > AA4 > AA5 > AA2.
I did like the reasoning minigame at the end of the cases though, it's cool, like the end part of Danganronpa.

I think I'll pick up Investigations after this, I'm currently playing Ever17 waiting for Zero Time Dilemma <3

 

[GSR]

Huh... ummmm lmao, sorry to steal your thunder there a bit. I'm a small time lurker here and had no idea you were a Gaffer. It was good fun to go through your tweets though, and I hope AA6 meets your optimism!

Haha no worries, it was actually kind of nice to see someone enjoyed my cynical-ass tweets

Again, I'm hopeful for AA6, but there's a lot that could easily go wrong. Still, I'm gonna be streaming the Japanese release like I did with DGS, so if nothing else I'll have the fun of reacting to it with a bunch of other folks.

 

[burn this down]

Agreed. Classic case of telling vs showing. They repeat that phrase so much but the setting seemed to more or less follow the status quo for the series. Felt awkward and poorly planned.

This recent playthrough, though, yeesh. The game's not a total write-off - it's still an Ace Attorney game, and almost by definition that means it'll have some satisfying moments and puzzles. But there's a lot that just doesn't work, from the fact the writers seem to think the way to define a theme is to repeat it over and over ("the ends justify the means" and variations thereof appear 27 times in case three), the hilarious sidelining of the returning characters other than Phoenix/Apollo (also in case three: Trucy has a grand total of five lines outside of optional present/talk dialogue with her), the gimmick-heavy new characters (Starbuck's personality is literally "space similes and over-depressive sighs")... it's just not that good, honestly.

There's also the fact the game is playing everything as safe as possible. It feels like they wanted to make a totally new story... but they were too afraid to drop Apollo altogether, so look, he's back, but wait, people complained that Phoenix lost his badge in AA4, so don't worry, he's back and technically the main character, and, and, and...

I'm a little more optimistic for AA6, because if nothing else they seem to be more ambitious with the story they're telling and focusing on integrating the returning characters better. But AA5 has a lot of areas that need improving.

That's a solid point that y'all make about the theming I hadn't really thought of. The game has almost zero subtlety. It's like "Here's an idea! Now instead of expanding upon it and following it to a conclusion, I'll just repeat it verbatim over and over!". I think it's more jarring when the original trilogy is pretty good about telling vs showing and developing its ideas.

The sidelining of old characters bothered me too. Something I liked about the original trilogy was the recurring characters and seeing them grow and change, but seemed to scrap that here, with Trucy barely showing up. I think the other characters make solid cameos though. They do a good job of explaining why they're relegated to cameos (Edgeworth is now chief prosecutor, Pearl lives back in Kurain and visits once in a while). But the aversion towards the events of Apollo Justice were weird. It felt like the writers were scared to talk about what happened in it. That revelation that

Spoiler

Apollo and Trucy are actually siblings

goes... nowhere?

it's hard to argue it being worse than 4 and 2

to me at least

2 has the best case in the series (Farewell, My Turnabout). The only 'bad case' in the bunch is Bigtop Turnabout, but I don't think that brings it down below 5. Especially with 5 having Turnabout Academy. 4 is consistently ok. It never hits the depths that 5 does.

 

[StarStabbedMoon]

For me, AA3 > AA1 > AA4 > AA5 > AA2.
I did like the reasoning minigame at the end of the cases though, it's cool, like the end part of Danganronpa.

This is pretty much my list, though I might give an edge to AA2 over AA5 just because of the last case. I'd also put Ace vs. Layton after AA4 probably.

I think AA5 might be the least annoying game in the series, actually. There was alot about it that made gameplay very smooth, but the narrative and presentation didn't seem as ambitious as the other games, without Shu Takumi at the helm.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

I like it more than 2 and 4, which are both pretty dull. Honestly, I'd probably put it a bit over 3, simply because I hated how far up its own ass it was with the Ghostbusters stuff.

The first game is still the best.

 

[RecRoulette]

They did a pretty good job of salvaging Apollo as a character after the John Cena-esque burial Feeny gave him in his own game.

Also, I really liked Foolbright, but

Spoiler

shame about him being the Phantom and all.

 

[DrArchon]

The high school case was on the low end of the scale (having probably the most obvious killer that isn't shown off in a cutscene really didn't help) but I had enough fun with the twists and turns about how the murder took place, where it happened, who was there, etc.

The yokai village one wasn't great either. Don't you fucking pretend that this game is happening in America, localization team. Not when our heroes say the word "yokai" 3 hundred bazillion times. And the whole "ooh, spooky demons!" just fell flat for me. Don't bring up possession if you can't match the possession in T&T. Otherwise you'll just draw unwanted comparisons. Also, showing off the killer at the start of a non-tutorial case? Really? I mean, it was obvious from the moment you saw him that he was the culprit, but still.

The DLC case is much better than those two, but still not as good as Cosmic Turnabout and the last case. There were some nice twists and turns there that I certainly wasn't expecting. The setting really worked well, but I did get the sense that it was cut from the game just to be sold later. Just felt like it, that's all.

I think my biggest problem with AA5 is that the cast is so bloated that a lot of the characters just feel like throwaway references. Like, Pearl shows up, but she doesn't do anything. Edgeworth's there because he has to be but he doesn't do a whole lot. Trucy barely shows up at all. I think she leaves the office maybe twice at most, which is really sad because I really liked her in Apollo Justice. But no, now Athena has to be the side-kick with a tragic backstory.

 

[Salsa]

I'd probably put it a bit over 3.

 

[ElFly]

The dark age of the law?!?

 

[TheRedSnifit]

They did a pretty good job of salvaging Apollo as a character after the John Cena-esque burial Feeny gave him in his own game.

Spoiler

Also, I really liked Foolbright, shame about being the Phantom and all

.

Holy cow, spoil that.

 

[Salsa]

sometimes I wonder if i'll ever be as invested in a game's story as I was during the last case of AA3.

sometimes I wonder if i'll ever have that build up -hold- release payoff in media ever

it was magical

 

[Salsa]

I remember playing that shit laying down and I had to get up and move and react to shit IRL while being completely alone in my room

aw man

 

[RecRoulette]

Holy cow, spoil that.

OP mentioned it, so I was just responding to it. But I'll go ahead and spoiler tag it in case people skip the OP for fear of being spoiled.

 

[burn this down]

sometimes I wonder if i'll ever be as invested in a game's story as I was during the last case of AA3.

sometimes I wonder if i'll ever have that build up -hold- release payoff in media ever

it was magical

Dude, I remember piecing together the big twist that

Spoiler

Maya had channeled Dahlia

about two steps before it was actually revealed and I was Losing. My. Shit.

 

[Septimus Prime]

I still place 2 as the worst of the series because it has the worst music.

 

[R_thanatos]

The dark age of the law?!?

i ... wanted to forget that this game tried to brainwash me with this sentence...

What have you done you'all ?

 

[Modest Mauser]

The dark age of the law?!?

Ah, the dark age of the law...

 

[Piichan]

One of my more liked Ace Attorney games. And the DLC case is definitely worth checking out.

In my ranking, it is definitely upper tier:

Great AA>AA3>AA5>AA Investigations 2>AA1>AA Investigations 1>AA4>Layton v AA>AA2

 

[quabba]

Bah I just finished case 3 and started the dlc case and there was huge unmarked spoilers in the op.

Anyway glad to hear it gets better with the dlc plus last two cases.

 

[Salsa]

Great AA>

 

[ShadowgeistX]

One of my more liked Ace Attorney games. And the DLC case is definitely worth checking out.

In my ranking, it is definitely upper tier:

Great AA>AA3>AA5>AA Investigations 2>AA1>AA Investigations 1>AA4>Layton v AA>AA2

Have a feeling this would be my ranking too if I played GAA/AAI2 since the rest seems to fall in line.

AA5 is more fun than AA2 and AA4 overall though, there's no question. However when it comes to dumb shit being in the story then it's about the same.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Replayed it recently, and while the flaws are somewhat more apparent, I found it about as enjoyable as I did at launch (though I also was very aware at the time of some of the dodgier aspects so).

My overall ranking:

AA3 > GTPD > AAI2 > AA1 > AA5 > AA2 > AAI > AA4 > PLVSPW

OP, I've actually been-



Welp!

But yeah, I just finished replaying AA5 in preparation for AA6 and to collect my thoughts for a full re-review. If you go back three years and dig up my posts from when the game first released in Japan, you're gonna see me gushing pretty hard - but man, time has not been kind to this game for me. That first playthrough was colored by the hype of "first mainline AA in years" and probably buffered a bit by the fact I was still in the middle of studying Japanese and so some of the writing went over my head.

This recent playthrough, though, yeesh. The game's not a total write-off - it's still an Ace Attorney game, and almost by definition that means it'll have some satisfying moments and puzzles. But there's a lot that just doesn't work, from the fact the writers seem to think the way to define a theme is to repeat it over and over ("the ends justify the means" and variations thereof appear 27 times in case three), the hilarious sidelining of the returning characters other than Phoenix/Apollo (also in case three: Trucy has a grand total of five lines outside of optional present/talk dialogue with her), the gimmick-heavy new characters (Starbuck's personality is literally "space similes and over-depressive sighs")... it's just not that good, honestly.

There's also the fact the game is playing everything as safe as possible. It feels like they wanted to make a totally new story... but they were too afraid to drop Apollo altogether, so look, he's back, but wait, people complained that Phoenix lost his badge in AA4, so don't worry, he's back and technically the main character, and, and, and...

I'm a little more optimistic for AA6, because if nothing else they seem to be more ambitious with the story they're telling and focusing on integrating the returning characters better. But AA5 has a lot of areas that need improving.

I mean really, the safest thing they could have done is sidelined Apollo to a side character after people weren't too warm to him in his own game. Instead, they kept him on, gave him about equal billing with Phoenix and Athena, and instead added to his character and made him great.

 

[Magnet_Man]

I had a honeymoon phase with it too. It was a lot of fun at first but on repeat plays, the rough patches become very apparent.

First, Athena. I actually don't hate her at all; I don't even dislike her. The thing though is I feel nothing for her. She's just there and is standard plucky tomboy character. What's sad is that the game got my attention when we were at the Rocket Center talking with Juniper and she mentions that Athena was totally different as a girl while we got that really nice Reminiscence playing. So I'm watching the scene during this and I'm like, "Okay, you've got my interest. So where are we going with this?" And unfortunately the answer was an arm's throw away as her story and Blackquill's wrapped up in the most predictable way possible. I felt more empathy for the side characters of the DLC case than I did from someone I just spent an entire game talking to and controlling.

My second problem is the writing. The writing is laden with cliches, crutch statements, and just...weird sounding statements like Bolt posted earlier. There are so many comments about power of friendship, believing in justice, and other corny lines that sound lifted from any anime. Actually, no. The lines sound like they come from the stereotypes of anime writing. That entire spiel all three of the lawyers were giving the Phantom near the end made me think they were going to give him a Carebear Stare to beat him. And of course, our good old crutch plot device, The Law: Dark Ages and You. I've mentioned before the big problem with it but aside from being brought up to the point of drinking-game absurdity, nothing in the game's setting, environment, or story do anything to establish that this concept is even a real thing. The courts proceed the exact same as before, police investigations proceed the same, and witnesses behave the exact same way. Nothing outside of the statement "dark age of the law" has any baring on the game's events. Ultimately it was a lazy attempt to make the events seem grander by attempting to create a common thread between our four main characters, Phoenix, Athena, Blackquill, and Phantom.

The last big problem is, playing it safe. I've said before how I disliked how obvious it was that Capcom backpedaled to pre-AA4 tone by making Phoenix a lawyer and the lead again. While I think this is a more natural development for his character coming off of AA3's conclusion and I didn't want him to be a bum, they could've been more subtle about moving away from AA4's direction such as starting AA5 with Phoenix leaving Apollo in charge of the office while he goes to take the bar exam again. Phoenix would be on the road to recovering his profession while Apollo would have a game to himself to flesh out his character as more than "surprising lawboy". Instead AA4 was shoved into a corner while the series ran back to the comfort zone. It's safe money but I expect a little more ambition and integrity from such a compelling series and amazing cast. The other thing is the hand holding. Oh my god, the hand holding. I thought it was rough on the first play but on following ones where you know what happened can get maddening. So when a question gets posed to you, since the cases are fairly simple you figure out the thing and it feels good. You were paying attention, you realized what didn't fit, and what evidence is meaningful here....But then your character repeats the answer. They flashback on the statement or visual of what you need to present. Then your partner character repeats it. Then your character responds to the partner. Then your character thinks to him/herself again what the answer is and then FINALLY you can present the obvious answer. It's not satisfying at all now that you had up to three characters slapping you in the face with the answer you came up with yourself way back and that feeling of gratification is gone. Obviously the writers want the players to progress through the story and not get frustrated at getting stuck, but that's why you need to have clever writing to guide the player to the correct choice. It's frustrating because Capcom did do that! But they were scared that you wouldn't get it so they carried you over their back rather than give gentle nudges.

All that said I don't hate this game at all, but it needed efficiency. If you're not going to give me developed character arcs then at least let me see the spectacle of the characters and events with less dialogue fluff and less handholding.

 

[SoulUnison]

I just don't get how so many people love the DLC case.
I had to force my way through it, honestly.

I felt it was much too ridiculous, even for a Phoenix Wright storyline, and I thought some of the ways it wrapped up and explained itself were some of the most groan worthy cliches imaginable.

Actually, I think I was just somewhat disappointed with the whole package, though.

Athena's a great design, but her parts in the story seemed to always devolve to "Let's listen to the discord in his heart!" which was just such a cringy, young angle to give it, and it got brought up just as much as the terrible "Dark Age of the Law" arc words that get absolutely beaten into your head.

Case 2 was entirely filler, and didn't even have the suspense of wondering who the culprit was, since it's literally the first thing you're shown.

Investigation turned into an MMO style "follow this checklist" kind of quest and you can't even examine things outside of when and what the game wants you to.

Oh, and I hate the Phantom. Such an underwhelming villain to tie the whole narrative together. I know people are going to think I'm lying about this, but before the game even came out, the SECOND they confirmed

Spoiler

Fulbright was the game's "new detective" and that Gumshoe wouldn't be appearing at ALL I said, out loud, "He did it. He's the big bad."

Spoiler

Then we find out that the "real" Fulbright has been dead for a long time and this Fulbright's always been the Phantom, but then we never get even a hint of what or who the phantom truly is. Yes, I realize it's a narrative technique and played into the whole "Been doing this so long he doesn't even remember who he is himself" angle, but it just felt like the whole game added up to a lot of nothing and we had somehow been following two "anti" characters.

I was just generally disappointed with the whole overarching story.

 

[SoulUnison]

Dude, I remember piecing together the big twist that

Spoiler

Maya had channeled Dahlia

about two steps before it was actually revealed and I was Losing. My. Shit.

This is seriously one of my favorite twists in anything ever.
I pieced together what had happened just a bit before the game spells it out for you, and I was seriously shaking. It's brilliant. It was probably the first time I ever truly felt "proud" of a fictional character.

Spoiler

Maya. Clever girl. And then the fact that it means that Dahlia wasted her entire chance, not knowing the person she was there to murder was actually the body she was inhabiting at the time!? It's just so thematically perfect. It was the ultimate "fuck you." Dahlia didn't just fail, she was humiliated, played for a fool, and then had to realize it in front of everyone, on the witness stand.

 

[MANUELF]

This is seriously one of my favorite twists in anything ever.
I pieced together what had happened just a bit before the game spells it out for you, and I was seriously shaking. It's brilliant. It was probably the first time I ever truly felt "proud" of a fictional character.

Spoiler

Maya. Clever girl. And then the fact that it means that Dahlia wasted her entire chance, not knowing the person she was there to murder was actually the body she was inhabiting at the time!? It's just so thematically perfect. It was the ultimate "fuck you." Dahlia didn't just fail, she was humiliated, played for a fool, and then had to realize it in front of everyone, on the witness stand.

Spoiler

But it wasnt Maya idea, it was Mia.....

 

[SoulUnison]

Spoiler

But it wasnt Maya idea, it was Mia.....

Spoiler

Maya had the foresight to channel Mia and ask for advice by leaving notes, though. I still consider it Maya's victory. Either way, she saved the day with channeling.