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Xbox Project Scorpio Announced - 6TFlops, 320GB/s - Fall 2017

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Im not saying they need to ditch xbox one now, what im saying is in order to really push games to the next level, they cant be forced to also develop each of those games for xbox one as well. 6TF is nice but i just dont see how its going to bring much more (other than VR) if they are forced to make the game work with parity on xbox one as well. Its essentially just going to be better looking games and not much else. Im not sure thats worth the price of admission.

I continue to believe people are greatly underestimating the baseline consoles like the xbox one and ps4 set. The main things these consoles limit is raw graphics quality, but yet are sophisticated enough from a hardware standpoint to handle all sorts of very impressive titles. So they really won't hold back the Scorpio nearly as much as people might think. It's always fairly obvious that when devs design these games, there's a degree to which they kind of overshoot the hardware and then can't use certain features or graphics settings because it wouldn't run well on the current hardware. On Scorpio they will be able to get the things in there they usually drop, and that will have a much bigger visual impact between the systems than people are thinking.
 

Crayon

Member
Look at the hood LOL

MvO8nHm.jpg


Microsoft-SEGA, give us this game at native 4K 2160p.

I love your arsenal of magazine scans.

edit: and I'll fuck up anyone here at that game.
 

Gamezone

Gold Member
How will it work with both consoles? You place a disc inside the Scorpio, then you have to download the higher textures?
 
Eh... How does it work on PC? You don't download a game specific for your system.
Several games have optional higher resolution texture packs on PC. Scorpio could do something similar. Place an Xbox One game in the drive; Scorpio searches to see if there's a 4k texture pack to download.
 
I thought it would be interesting to see what the combination of minimum clock speed and compute units would get Scorpio's GPU to 6TFs. I went from 64 CU which is what a full Vega chip is suppose to be to, down to what a Polaris based RX 480 at 36 CU would be.

Code:
MHZ - CU
732 - 64
756 - 62
781 - 60
808 - 58
837 - 56
868 - 54
902 - 52
938 - 50
977 - 48
1019 - 46
1065 - 44
1116 - 42
1172 - 40
1234 - 38
1302 - 36

I feel like 58-48 CU is most likely.
 

c0de

Member
Several games have optional higher resolution texture packs on PC. Scorpio could do something similar. Place an Xbox One game in the drive; Scorpio searches to see if there's a 4k texture pack to download.

I don't say that no games does this but I don't think it's a problem at all. Also, how big are the games that have optional packs and how big are the extensions?
 

Conduit

Banned
Sony announced PS3 17 months away? interesting considering comments made.

With delay. Technically, PS3 was introduced around 6 months before release. PS3 was set to be released somewhere between Nov. - Dec. 2005. after E3 2005 announcement. Delay happened around October 2005.
 
Looking at the reviews of the rx 480 should give us a good idea of where the Scorpio will end up. The rx 480 is rated at 5.8tf and ends up beating a reference 970 by a few percentage points. I guess the best we can hope for with the Scorpio is 980 performance at best. I brought up an article where Spencer mentioned that they needed around gtx 980 performance for 4k and I was ridiculed. The rx 490 was listed on amd site and that's what will likely be in the Scorpio. As always nvidia flops > amd flops. I hope people will calm down with their expectations now.
 

Three

Member
Sony announced PS3 17 months away? interesting considering comments made.

What's interesting about it?
They probably did it for the same reasons too because the 360 was coming out earlier and they couldn't manufacture at the price they wanted quick enough.
 
Looking at the reviews of the rx 480 should give us a good idea of where the Scorpio will end up. The rx 480 is rated at 5.8tf and ends up beating a reference 970 by a few percentage points. I guess the best we can hope for with the Scorpio is 980 performance at best. I brought up an article where Spencer mentioned that they needed around gtx 980 performance for 4k and I was ridiculed. The rx 490 was listed on amd site and that's what will likely be in the Scorpio. As always nvidia flops > amd flops. I hope people will calm down with their expectations now.

Isn't it simply just that Nvidia is able to clock their GPUs much, much higher, which leads to their lower number of cores simply operating much faster than AMD's more numerous, but still notably slower Stream Processors? I guess in the end it kinda amounts to the same thing as you said, but that's how you usually see Nvidia cards at lower tflops ratings outperforming AMD cards that, by their mathematical makeup, appear superior in the flops department.

Also, Scorpio is more than likely using Vega, which is essentially assured to be more advanced than Polaris. It's also a chip that is apart of an entirely new graphics ip generation for AMD (v9.0). as compared to polaris which I believe is very much apart of the same generation of graphics IP as Hawaii. So while the flops rating isn't very far removed from what you see for a fully enabled RX 480, if Scorpio has Vega it's assured to be more capable in ways that go beyond just flops. Scorpio is also expected to have almost 100GB/s more memory bandwidth. Don't forget that.
 

Proelite

Member
I thought it would be interesting to see what the combination of minimum clock speed and compute units would get Scorpio's GPU to 6TFs. I went from 64 CU which is what a full Vega chip is suppose to be to, down to what a Polaris based RX 480 at 36 CU would be.

Code:
MHZ - CU
732 - 64
756 - 62
781 - 60
808 - 58
837 - 56
868 - 54
902 - 52
938 - 50
977 - 48
1019 - 46
1065 - 44
1116 - 42
1172 - 40
1234 - 38
1302 - 36

I feel like 58-48 CU is most likely.

Does clocks speeds matter for BC? If so, 853mhz minimum, so 54 CU max.
 

scently

Member
Looking at the reviews of the rx 480 should give us a good idea of where the Scorpio will end up. The rx 480 is rated at 5.8tf and ends up beating a reference 970 by a few percentage points. I guess the best we can hope for with the Scorpio is 980 performance at best. I brought up an article where Spencer mentioned that they needed around gtx 980 performance for 4k and I was ridiculed. The rx 490 was listed on amd site and that's what will likely be in the Scorpio. As always nvidia flops > amd flops. I hope people will calm down with their expectations now.

The 480 is 5.8 at its boost clock, Normally it is less than that. The 390x is 5.9tflops and is more indicative of what the Scorpio should be and that is a card that competes and beats the 980 in a lot of games currently. Go and have a look at the reviews of the 390x for an idea of how it does at 4k.

Add in the fact that the Scorpio is most likely going to be based on Vega I expect it to perform well. Anyway, we will see eventually at its proper unveiling, I am sure there will be games to showcase it.
 
The 480 is 5.8 at its boost clock, Normally it is less than that. The 390x is 5.9tflops and is more indicative of what the Scorpio should be and that is a card that competes and beats the 980 in a lot of games currently. Go and have a look at the reviews of the 390x for an idea of how it does at 4k.

Add in the fact that the Scorpio is most likely going to be based on Vega I expect it to perform well. Anyway, we will see eventually at its proper unveiling, I am sure there will be games to showcase it.

I've looked at the benchmarks. I think you might want to familiarize yourself with said benchmarks so I've included a link for you to visit. MSI r9 390xoc uHD benchmarks.

Look, I'm not saying the scorpio is going to be bad or anything but i think that people need to temper their expectations. The console will be good performance for it's price point but people are expecting 980ti and gtx 1070 performance in the box and that's not going to happen. With the switch to UWP, we should expect even less hardware specific code. The so called advantages of coding to metal are going to evaporate and become less pronounced.

Isn't it simply just that Nvidia is able to clock their GPUs much, much higher, which leads to their lower number of cores simply operating much faster than AMD's more numerous, but still notably slower Stream Processors? I guess in the end it kinda amounts to the same thing as you said, but that's how you usually see Nvidia cards at lower tflops ratings outperforming AMD cards that, by their mathematical makeup, appear superior in the flops department.

Also, Scorpio is more than likely using Vega, which is essentially assured to be more advanced than Polaris. It's also a chip that is apart of an entirely new graphics ip generation for AMD (v9.0). as compared to polaris which I believe is very much apart of the same generation of graphics IP as Hawaii. So while the flops rating isn't very far removed from what you see for a fully enabled RX 480, if Scorpio has Vega it's assured to be more capable in ways that go beyond just flops. Scorpio is also expected to have almost 100GB/s more memory bandwidth. Don't forget that.


Above is the power draw for various gpu's including the rx 480. Notice how it draws almost the same amount of power as the gtx 1080? It is clear to see that AMD still hasn't caught up to Nvidia in power efficiency. Yes the Scropio will have more Cu's but it will be clocked significantly lower. I expect the scorpio to use the RX490 recently listed on AMD's website. Sure it will go beyond the flops but the console's tdp needs to be considered as well. Both the xbox one and ps4 have a tdp of < 150 watts which is less than previous generations. If we assume that the tdp will increase slightly then we are looking at a maximum of 200 watts. I don't expect vega to be significantly more power efficient than polaris if at all. People are expecting the cpu to be zen based as well so when we consider all these things, it's best if everyone just tempered their expectations.

Like I said, I expect performance around the gtx 980 level. I don't expect to see 980ti performance from this box.
 
It's naive to expect the same amount of power efficiency in GCN. Those ACEs consume power, whether you use them (DX12) or not (DX11). Maybe that's why Radeon cards don't overclock as much as nVidia ones.

VLIW4 (Radeon 6xxx series) die shrunk into 14nm would be as power efficient as Maxwell. This shows that Maxwell (or even Pascal) is not that future proof/DX12 ready.

Can you guess what will happen if nVidia eventually adds ACEs to their GPUs?
 
It's naive to expect the same amount of power efficiency in GCN. Those ACEs consume power, whether you use them (DX12) or not (DX11). Maybe that's why Radeon cards don't overclock as much as nVidia ones.

VLIW4 (Radeon 6xxx series) die shrunk into 14nm would be as power efficient as Maxwell. This shows that Maxwell (or even Pascal) is not that future proof/DX12 ready.

Can you guess what will happen if nVidia eventually adds ACEs to their GPUs?

You're talking about future proofing for a $200 card? Are you serious? We've seen 2 dx12 games where improved performance was noticeable on amd cards, Aots and Hitman. Rotr is a wash and the same can be said for other dx12 games. In 3 years, we may have 100 AAA dx12 games. By then, you'll likely want to upgrade your "future proof" $200 card. In 3 years, we'll have new consoles again. I assure you that neither sony nor microsoft is thinking about "future proofing" as it's of no benefit to them. The notion of future proofing is entirely stupid. Just go read this thread and you'll see why it almost never works, Jeff Rigby UHD Blu-ray Game Consoles shipped in 2013
 
Are you saying that a 5.5TF GPU will be obsolete in 2 years from now? Really?

I'm pretty sure that PS4/XB1 will be supported till the end of the decade and that says a lot...

ps: You still don't understand why GCN is more future-proof than Maxwell though. It doesn't have to do with flops. That's why no one should compare nVflops with AMD flops, unless they have the exact same architecture.
 
Are you saying that a 5.5TF GPU will be obsolete in 2 years from now? Really?

I'm pretty sure that PS4/XB1 will be supported till the end of the decade and that says a lot...

ps: You still don't understand why GCN is more future-proof than Maxwell though. It doesn't have to do with flops. That's why no one should compare nVflops with AMD flops, unless they have the exact same architecture.

1) How does this relate to the discussion? It's a pointless question.

2) And them being supported only hampers the likely hood that we see anything better than 980 level performance from this box. The performance levels need to be somewhat close. Adoption rates for the new Scorpio isn't going to be as fast as the adoption rate for the ps4 or even the 360 especially when the Neo would have eaten into some of it's potential market.

3) I understood why it was more future proof the first time it was mentioned. I just thought it was a rather senseless point to bring to the discussion. We're talking about predictable real world performance for the scorpio and you're talking about future proofing? Like why?
 

scently

Member
I've looked at the benchmarks. I think you might want to familiarize yourself with said benchmarks so I've included a link for you to visit. MSI r9 390xoc uHD benchmarks.

Look, I'm not saying the scorpio is going to be bad or anything but i think that people need to temper their expectations. The console will be good performance for it's price point but people are expecting 980ti and gtx 1070 performance in the box and that's not going to happen. With the switch to UWP, we should expect even less hardware specific code. The so called advantages of coding to metal are going to evaporate and become less pronounced.

Like I said, I expect performance around the gtx 980 level. I don't expect to see 980ti performance from this box.

Err...I have seen the review and? that link you posted goes to show exactly my point.....that it does well at 4k30fps. I am not sure where the argument that it is expected to perform like the 980Ti or the 1070 is coming from. I compared it to the 390x and the 980 which is exactly where it falls. These two cards can do 4k30fps at ultra settings or a step below.

I am going quote myself to show what I said in a different thread with regards to 4k30fps/60fps;

Running a game at "4k/60fps" on console is going to be a design choice and not entirely a subject of hardware. XB1 can't do 1080p 60fps and yet Forza does it without dropping a single frame. Why because it was designed that way.

And saying that a 6tflops gpu can only do 4k native rendering with simplistic graphics is not right. The 390X is PC part rated at 5.9tflops and does 4k/30fps with the best settings on a lot of recent games. On some you just have to drop some settings down a bit.

I expect Forza 7 to run at 4k/60fps native. Its going to be a showcase title for MS.

And ofcourse, as is being proposed in the tweets in OP, their will be many clever ways to get 4k rendering without spending all of the system's resources on doing it bruteforce. What remains to be seen is how effective they will be. QB and R6 have achieved varying degree of success using these techniques and am sure we will see other implementations, for better or for worse.
 

peace

Neo Member
How does this compare power-wise to the top end Steam Boxes, or the Alpha ASM100-7980 Console (2.9 GHz Intel Core i7-4765T)? Its a lot more powerful and cheaper, isn't it?
 
That's what they said, sure. If it was intended, it wouldn't have looked as good in comparison.

I'll still take it at what they planned it to be, though.

Yeah, but no. PS4 Neo makes sens as an iterative device, but Scorpio doesn't, in my humble opinion. Scorpio is what? 4-5 times more powerful than the Xbox One? That is a generational jump in disguise, me thinks. Or a stupid decision based on the PS4 perceived -and real- advantage over the One.
 

shaowebb

Member
"It's a monster"

Oh I can see this ending quote catching on. Sounds impressive. Welcome to 6 year dev cycles and publishers whose old games run on scorpio but whose new games likely wont run on X1 if they develop to optimize for scorpio.

I don't like iterative upgrades on a gen. It makes publishers have to split develop for the two hardware setups and if you push to optimize for this monster you likely wont be able to run it on X1. It may as well just be a spin on a new console gen that has backwards compatibility for the first time from Microsoft. And man they had better get that right for once on this thing otherwise it may as well be Saturn and Dreamcast all over again in terms of moving too many consoles too fast.

If you develop for a system that powerful it'll be cool, but it'll have to ignore the old less powerful hardware and to make a show stopper the dev cycles will only increase in years.
 

Xenus

Member
Isn't it simply just that Nvidia is able to clock their GPUs much, much higher, which leads to their lower number of cores simply operating much faster than AMD's more numerous, but still notably slower Stream Processors? I guess in the end it kinda amounts to the same thing as you said, but that's how you usually see Nvidia cards at lower tflops ratings outperforming AMD cards that, by their mathematical makeup, appear superior in the flops department.

Also, Scorpio is more than likely using Vega, which is essentially assured to be more advanced than Polaris. It's also a chip that is apart of an entirely new graphics ip generation for AMD (v9.0). as compared to polaris which I believe is very much apart of the same generation of graphics IP as Hawaii. So while the flops rating isn't very far removed from what you see for a fully enabled RX 480, if Scorpio has Vega it's assured to be more capable in ways that go beyond just flops. Scorpio is also expected to have almost 100GB/s more memory bandwidth. Don't forget that
.


Not really Polaris is GCN 4 which is latest and greatest. While Vega could be a more advanced API the that GCN 5 or whatever they wish to call it I wouldn't expect more than a 10% gain with same performance. The big deal would be the potential memory bandwidth increase. Which we should be able to see in the next few weeks if Polaris is significantly bandwidth limited at all.

The main thing that would be nice to know is how much of the thermal/power characteristics of the new architecture are the architecture and how much are Fab based. As both Console SOC's were TMSC last go around and I don't expect that to change. So if it is a fab thing both Neo and Scorpio should be significantly better at the same clocks vs straight Polaris
 
I'd assume so since the previous PS4 SOC was also made at TMSC. That doesn't necessarily mean it will be but it makes sense.

AFAIK AMD switched over the Xbox One and PS4 APUs to GloFo some time last year.

No why would you do that... Lol well then thermals of both could be downright awful then....

I'm assuming this is why MS decided to wait till next year. Maybe the GloFo 14nm process will improve by then or they get 10nm. Or they strike a deal with TSMC.

Because as it stands now the perf/watt for AMD is awful considering the 14nm RX480 is = GTX 970 at the same TDP with 28nm.
 

cackhyena

Member
Yeah, but no. PS4 Neo makes sens as an iterative device, but Scorpio doesn't, in my humble opinion. Scorpio is what? 4-5 times more powerful than the Xbox One? That is a generational jump in disguise, me thinks. Or a stupid decision based on the PS4 perceived -and real- advantage over the One.
Neo makes next to no sense to me. Huge lead, everyone wants to work on your console...make this half measure leap for what? Now MS wants to leapfrog that and Neo looks even worse. Just feels like a mistep now. Hope they bump up its specs to compete.
 
Err...I have seen the review and? that link you posted goes to show exactly my point.....that it does well at 4k30fps. I am not sure where the argument that it is expected to perform like the 980Ti or the 1070 is coming from. I compared it to the 390x and the 980 which is exactly where it falls. These two cards can do 4k30fps at ultra settings or a step below.

I am going quote myself to show what I said in a different thread with regards to 4k30fps/60fps;

I'll have to apologize then, I missed your post. I agree that we'll see 980/390x performance. It's okay for what it is but the price will really determine if it's adopted widely or not. If the Neo comes out this year and that's $399, I expect that by the time scorpio comes out, it'll be either $349 or $299 with a year head start. That being said, sony considers the ps4 and neo to be in the same generation. They are not planning on doing away with generations. What we are seeing is an interesting conflict of ideals and it'll be interesting to see which one wins out.
 
6 Tflops looks cool today but in fall 2017 , 6Tflops looks crap ... :(

I dont believe in what hes saying about game in 4K smooth experience... No chance for 4K/60 fps with a 6Tflops GPU , not with AAA graphics... And is useless for 30 fps ... 1080p/60fps high picture quality >4k/30fps medium picture quality...

Sorry if im not clear , i try to speak english without a translator... xD
 

scently

Member
I'll have to apologize then, I missed your post. I agree that we'll see 980/390x performance. It's okay for what it is but the price will really determine if it's adopted widely or not. If the Neo comes out this year and that's $399, I expect that by the time scorpio comes out, it'll be either $349 or $299 with a year head start. That being said, sony considers the ps4 and neo to be in the same generation. They are not planning on doing away with generations. What we are seeing is an interesting conflict of ideals and it'll be interesting to see which one wins out.

Hmmm..well I think their goals are aligned in a lot of ways and at the same time, different. The Neo will play the same games as the ps4, only better. Same with the x1 and Scorpio. Sony says the Neo and the ps4 are one family, MS is position the Scorpio as part of the X1 family. While its being implied that there will be a ps5 I am not sure if that means a clear cut off mark between the ps4 generation and the next.

The way I see it, part of the need to move to x86 is that it allows an ease of development and familiarity with developers, allowing them to increase performance in another more powerful console without losing support for the previous model. This means there will be a built in backward compatibility without the need for a specialised hardware, a common software stack for development, consistency of service, keeping players in an ecosystem, etc.

More than likely, the ps5 will be based on x86 with an amd gpu. At the time of its release the ps4 family will still be able to play games coming out at the time rather well, and I dare say, better than the ps3 was able to play games that also came out on the ps4.

At some point I would assume that there will be a cut-off, I just don't know if it will be with the advent of a ps5, if there will be something with that moniker. MS too will have to define that cut-off at some point.

In anycase it will be interesting to see where it goes.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
Isn't it simply just that Nvidia is able to clock their GPUs much, much higher, which leads to their lower number of cores simply operating much faster than AMD's more numerous, but still notably slower Stream Processors? I guess in the end it kinda amounts to the same thing as you said, but that's how you usually see Nvidia cards at lower tflops ratings outperforming AMD cards that, by their mathematical makeup, appear superior in the flops department.


I'm not sure why stream processor count is an interesting metric besides comparing within one architecture. Nvidia has been favouring fatter GPU cores that do more and take more space and thus have a lower count, AMD has been favouring the opposite, they're just different ways of getting at an end goal. In past architectures Nvidias used to be odd things like 4 thin, 1 "fat" core, and things like that.

This is completely unlike a 4 core CPU doing the same performance as an 8 core, as GPUs are "embarrassingly parallel" devices and don't have such issues scaling performance by core count.

As for the higher on paper flops - that's directly BECAUSE of the higher shader core count. It's just a mathematical statement, nothing more, (stream processors) X (frequency in GHz) X 2 (operations per core per clock) = GFLOPS for AMD architectures. It doesn't denote performance. Again, I never got why "Nvidia does more with less flops" should be a particularly interesting statement. What's the price, and what's the performance, in the end. One could just as well say "for gaming performance X, AMD has more flops than Nvidia", equally meaningless.

Now, it's less efficient, yes, but I'd be interested in how much of that is GloFos shitty process compared to TSMC. AMD was legally obligated to have a certain number of wafers ordered from Glofo, so they chose the mid range 480 to fit the bill, while higher end cards will be TSMC and should improve the efficiency equation.
 

AmyS

Member
The amount of pixels per clock (unknown) and memory bandwidth (320 GB/sec) has got to be a lot more important than FLOPs, as far as how well Scorpio, or any system, handles native 4K rendering. The CPU performance as well.

GPU FLOPs is not a good indication of how well a system can run 4K gaming, or anything really.
 
The amount of pixels per clock (unknown) and memory bandwidth (320 GB/sec) has got to be a lot more important than FLOPs, as far as how well Scorpio, or any system, handles native 4K rendering. The CPU performance as well.

GPU FLOPs is not a good indication of how well a system can run 4K gaming, or anything really.

Information like ROPs, TMUs, CUs, ACEs, tri/sec, CPU core information are all indeed more important. Sadly, I can see it being a while till we get that kind of concrete information.
 
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