Well, it's not easy to match 400+ sexual assaults but it's not like this hasn't happened again on a smaller scale.
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Mass Sexual Assaults at Swedish Music Festivals
- Thread starter Erevador
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Whats your point? This guy said mass assaults are common now. They are not. Thats it. What part of my reasoning is now insufficent?
Yeah, obiviously. Smaller Scale were all the times where german guys touched women, too. Nobody cared or still cares when this happens on a small scale.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Thing is, if it IS purely asylum seekers then its better to call a duck a duck and to address the problem - integration etc
However, when you start to notice that music festivals do have this problem in general.... then it makes me much less sympathetic to posters since I know they're only talking on the matter because of certain political agendas
Are people more willing to report a sexual assault if it is perpetrated by a foreigner?
If you look at drug usage in the US, minorities are more likely to be arrested relative to their usage rates than whites, and sentences are harsher. From the outside it really does look like minorities are simply more likely to use drugs, but it's more to do with letting white people off easier when it comes to the same crime.
If you look at drug usage in the US, minorities are more likely to be arrested relative to their usage rates than whites, and sentences are harsher. From the outside it really does look like minorities are simply more likely to use drugs, but it's more to do with letting white people off easier when it comes to the same crime.
There is no mention of immgrant crisis, because the Data was collected before the immigrant cirsis
AmaterasuOni
Banned
Immigrant crisis is straight from the media. Most likely every media is telling that the whole situation is a full blown crisis. Immigrants are dying in the mediterranean sea, crime rates are up, there's human trafficking, prostitution, drugs etc. It is a humanitarian crisis.
Oh I'm not saying their might be an issue with young foreigners coming to these countries but people seem to act like there was never an issue with this problem, a large one at that, happening at these kinds of music festivals.
The guy you quoted didn't refer to Cologne. That was brought up after his post. Obviously, something of that scale didn't occurr again but he was referring to smaller incidents at music festivals and so on. And there definitely was a bunch of reports of these kinds of incidents occurring at swimming pools, shopping malls etc. I think one swimming pool site actually banned immigants after a row of incidents.
That's probably part of it, too.
Which makes it even weirder to backup the statement with a link to that article.
Hesemonni
Banned
I think nobody is suggesting sexual violence has never occured before, but atleast Scandinavia has been introduced to new forms of such violence with the influx of immigrants, for example mass sexual assaults performed during music festivals and mass rapes in general. Earlier it's been usually single assailant and usually somebody the victim knows beforehand.
But it does matter if the preparators are immigrants or 'born swedes' from a statistical standpoint regarding integration and the cultural schism there is in Sweden when it comes to the view on women. Eitherway, bickering about this doesn't stop the fact that there is a rise of sexual assaults perpetrated by gangs of men/boys.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
It was the first one I googled. Just noticed the date, sorry about that.
There's tons of more if you google it:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...er-of-sexual-assaults-in-europe-a6800901.html
http://www.wnd.com/2016/03/swedish-rape-crisis-boils-over-as-media-stays-silent/
http://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...c/news-story/e2e618e17ad4400b5ed65045e65e141d
Rimon-hanit
Member
I know paternalism is a scary sounding concept, but their are some very problematic views of women status (not exclusively obviously but commonly) in certain Arab communities, that need to be addressed.
EDIT: Should probably mention that I am saying this as someone from an Arab descent.
EDIT: Should probably mention that I am saying this as someone from an Arab descent.
AmaterasuOni
Banned
Yeah, there was never (or really, really rarely) rapes done by several perpetrators in Finland. Now they're the norm, if you can call rape a norm. :/
Women are afraid to walk alone at dark because of the situation in the metropolitan area.
And I fucking hate when rape news are turned into a political debate these days. The victims are just pushed aside because of agendas.
EDIT: But yeah. I'll get me goat and get out. This is turning out to be another cesspool of political agendas.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
No arrests and no proof? Just articles stirring fear for immigrants. The OP's vague warning is telling. Just come out and say it already, you don't like immigrants.
Meanwhile the worst mass murder on muslim kids was perpetrated by a white Norwegian, but nobody writes posts about white people molesting at European music festivals and warning that it is not the last time.
As I said. OP should be called out for his vague threat.
So 5 of the 7 reports were regarding white suspects. Ok then, move along, nothing to see here?
Meanwhile the worst mass murder on muslim kids was perpetrated by a white Norwegian, but nobody writes posts about white people molesting at European music festivals and warning that it is not the last time.
As I said. OP should be called out for his vague threat.
So 5 of the 7 reports were regarding white suspects. Ok then, move along, nothing to see here?
Simply Sami
Member
Its the "rape capital" not because it actually has a higher number of rapes, but because its much easier to report a rape in Sweden. And no, it has jackshit to do with the immigrant crisis. Did you even bother to check the date on the article you posted ?
Darth Ghandi
Banned
I was waiting for this thread. I see the regressive attack force are out in numbers
Anything to use as a weapon to further your xenophobia.
But I'm gonna lay down some facts about the particular incidents that the right wingers won't mention.
The first festival Bråvalla we have ZERO reports about what the perpetrators looked like.
So in that case people are just saying garbage like "this never happened before we had brown people".
In other words zero evidence.
I would also like to address the fact that this festival costs thousands of SEK to attend and how the hell would lone refugee children have that cash? But why think when your using violence against women as a baseball bat against minorities?
The second one in Karlstad the police first gave a statement that it was only refugee children who did the molesting.
But they later had to retract that once it was show that 2 out of the 7 where in fact refugee children.
Why they gave the first statement i have no idea but they were clearly wrong.
People like to say that Sweden is the rape capital in the world but fail to take into account that our laws count each act as a separate indictment.
Sunster
Member
Not for rapists. For all immigrants. As for if it will help, who knows? Couldn't hurt though.
I read through the two links about Sweden and checked the study.
No blame on immigration crisis. But they do blame the fact that we opened up to become a multicultural society in the 1970's.
Basically just pushing all blame on immigrants. And quite alot of it is pure speculation.
And they refer to the same study that was linked before.
Always-honest
Banned
Hope they catch them and bring them to justice.
moniker
Member
No they weren't. But only two were child refugees.
This vaguely written article in no way contradicts the accounts reported elsewhere, it simply scolds people for making assumptions without actually refuting those assumptions.
The authorities in these cases have often been cagey about the identity of those involved in these incidents because they don't want to encourage blowback. They don't deny, but they go out of their way to avoid confirming.
Meanwhile, reports from those actually on scene at these events are quite consistent.
It says nothing of the kind. It says that two were from HVB homes, but includes no other information about the demographic qualities of anyone involved.
As for any "vague threats" in my post, there are no "threats" of any kind. Just a warning of the high likelihood this pattern will continue. That's a warning that I will take no pleasure in quoting for your benefit in a few months time when the next such incident occurs.
moniker
Member
The rapes and the sexual molestations were different incidents.
ClosingADoor
Member
I don't know if dragging America into this has any use. Large music festivals have their trouble of course, as will every large event. There are always bad people doing bad stuff and in these kind of crowds it is easier to get away with it.
However, there is no denying that European countries have trouble with immigrant youth, primarily from Middle-eastern and Northern African origin. These can be recent arrivals, but also second or even third generation immigrants (or what the English word would be, since they aren't really immigrants then of course).
The kind of attacks mentioned here are part of that problem and it has happened a few times now already, some on larger scale (Cologne comes to mind) and on smaller (incidents in Finland and German towns). Other problems are harassment, robberies, assault and more. Are only immigrants doing this? No, of course not. But a large enough amount that it becomes problematic and needs to be taken seriously to see if it can be solved and bettered, maybe with a specific approach targeted towards this demographic. There is nothing wrong with that. Just looking away from that is not a good solution.
Just take my home town of Amsterdam, where youth from immigrant descent have caused trouble time and time again and are causing a ton of problems, from robbing bus drivers to setting almost 50 cars aflame in one neighborhood already this year. People get tired of it and want something to be done, but politicians and police seem unable to deal with it. This inability to solve these crimes and catch the criminals then leads to even more resentment, which is not a good thing. Basically, police and politics should do their job better when it comes to this, so people stop feeling unsafe and don't start blaming larger groups for the actions of a few.
The fact that you had to qualify your statement with your ethno-ancestral background is part of the problem with this whole situation. Even the girl who said "it was probably immigrants" was obviously reticent to say it because she does not want to be portrayed as racist, but statistics are stats regardless of who says them. Even though you cannot make categorical statements, any person with two brain cells to rub together can see that (per western paradigms) women are not treated as well in the arabic world. It should then come as no shock that women are assaulted by people who are less inclined to respect them.
Once again, there should not be a widespread demonization of refugees or immigrants, particularly due to the actions of a few douchebags. But there should be some understanding that if countries keep bringing in people who may be more inclined not to share western ideals or cultural norms, events like this may continue to happen, perpetrated heavily by these people. This only leads to further strife and the rise of ridiculous right wing nationalism movements. That's why Canada's approach is the best as they brought in people far less likely to cause societal strife (ie: women and families).
paperboywriter
Member
So both of these events are not free events or am I wrong here? You had to buy tickets. So why are they assuming those were immigrants who did the raping and not just people from other countries?
I might be wrong here thou.
I might be wrong here thou.
If I got a dollar everytime someone suddenly "cared" about a victim when it helps furthering their agenda...
Darth Ghandi
Banned
The problem is tho, that threads like this seem very ingenuous after someone (like me) slaps some actual facts regarding the specific situations mentioned in the OP.
But if I am to disregard that HUGE bit I would ask you what you have done to research any groups that ACTUALLY DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS AT HAND?
In Sweden we have several organizations working both domestically and internationally to promote womens rights and talk with men regarding what we can do to help.
(if anyone wants more info, pls send a PM)
That is what makes my annoyed with so many people who just want to use molestation and sexual violence as a way to promote xenophobia.
Fucking disgusting, but has been happening way before the immigrant crisis BUT not in the same volumes though. At least in Finland the police has been anticipating a spike in rapes and sexual harassments this summer because of the immigrant crisis. Whatever the causes are or whoever do these things, it's fucking disgusting. Gangraping someone in the middle of a crowd? What the fuck?
Darth Ghandi
Banned
ClosingADoor
Member
I certainly agree that it should not be used to promote xenophobia or push some far right agenda. That is not helping anyone.
And I know there are organisations and people doing all they can to help - and admittedly I am doing none of that myself, so those are better people then me.
But I also understand that people are frustrated and feel helpless when these things happen and I don't think the police and politics are doing enough to address that and present solutions to this. At least that is how I see the situation here in my country, I am not Swedish myself.
Majukun
Member
you are right, but the moment you give up to generalisation, it's the moment shit gets out of hand, and quickly... the culture those guys came from definitely had something to do with why they did what they did, but doesn't mean that everyone from said country or culture is now a potential rapist
sadly, while people love to bring up statistics to avvalorate their opinion, they are not that good when they need to grasp the scale of something as big as entire nations and cultures
xenophobia is an irrational fear of people from other countries. No one is saying xenophobia is acceptable. It is a different matter altogether to be concerned with people, foreign or not, who have different cultural constructs that may conflict with your own.
Sweden is a great country that has broken its back 80 times over to accomodate immigrants and refugees. That is part and parcel of the reason that so many people head to Sweden as they know it is tolerant and accomodating. That being said, education and outreach groups may not be enough to combat countervailing opinions shared by certain people, particularly those who may be frustrated with lack of job opportunities, financial security, etc.
Once again, a lot of the people coming into Sweden, Germany, Canada, are perfectly fine and will integrate without issue. But as we've seen, trying to ignore the problems and/or burying the story only further fuels right wing xenophobia. Full disclosure and discussion are the best remedy.
Whoever is doing sexual assaults is not the biggest issue, but the age old way to handle rape/sexual assault cases. The investigation is skewed and the punishments are ridiculously mild. The justice system should view rape as brutal torture and punish the guilty by those grounds.
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Regarding what you can do, I think everyone has a shared responsibility regarding the calling out of sexist behavior.
If you have a friend who says something that is sexist, call him out.
Regarding peoples frustrations it makes me wonder why people are so ready to jump to arms if the perpetrator isn't white?
I mean women have been telling us for a long time about how they suffer from sexual violence but none take heed. Until the perpetrator is brown.
Statistically speaking most rapes occur in someones how with someone they know.
I can't imagine the frustration women must feel when talking about the experiences only to be neglected until shit like this.
Again, as I said, they get reported more easily & get huge visibility in the press. When a black man (or a group of them) rape a white woman, it gets very prominent reporting in the press, it's more easily brought to police's attention and lots of people share those kinds of stories in the social media, making it seem like it's just Dem Muzlamz who do all the rapin', when reality is something completely different. There are studies about how the rape of someone the rapist knows is far more common than some random person just going up to someone and raping them, but those are exactly the kind of rapes that also go the most unreported (I mean, there are a lot of people who think a husband can't ever actually rape her wife).
Maybe immigrants are more likely to rape someone completely random, but in absolute numbers that's not necessarily a vast majority of ALL rapes like you claim. Maybe a bigger portion of immigrants are rapists, but considering how relatively few of them are in countries like Finland, that still doesn't mean they do a majority of rapings where "native Finns" still outnumber them 50-70 to 1. It's ludicrous to think that such a small number of people can vastly outnumber the natives in any kind of crime. In relative terms when compared to how many immigrants there are in relation to the number of rapes they are a part of, maybe, but not in absolute numbers.
It's full of immigrant rapes because each & every case (even ones that are just about accusations) is made into a big deal that stays in the news for weeks, whereas when some white man is actually convicted of rape, it's a small few-sentence story on the 27th page of some small local paper that no one gives a shit about, not country-wide news being blasted in huge letters on the pages of trash magazines like Iltasanomat & Iltalehti.
And let's not forget that there's a lot of fake stories circulating & being reported about Horriburu Immigrants who beat up & rape everyone even by less biased news media, stuff that turns out not to be true with even a little bit of research. Yet the news media never makes a big deal of correcting that false info, which leaves people with the impression that there is even more immigrant violence than there actually is. I know of several cases like that which got more or less prominent visibility in the media (i.e. one girl claimed to have been raped by an immigrant yet later admitted it was a total lie, a grown-up man in his 40s, I think, lied about being beaten up by immigrants in Kuopio or Kajaani, which was completely untrue etc.). Some are even being reported as separate occasions even when they are actually about the same fake incident.
Hell, fake reports of immigrant violence (whether sexual or not) were so prominent in Germany that someone created a site keeping track of all of these fake stories and the number of fake stories was just mind boggling.
EDIT: Here's the site: http://hoaxmap.org
410 fake reports now. It was 280 in February this year.
As has been pointed out in this thread, that can be somewhat attributed to a few things that push up those numbers even though rape isn't all that much more common on average than anywhere else. If I've understood correctly, in Sweden women/people are more likely to report rapes (whereas a lot more women stay quiet more often in other countries due to issues like victim blaming, horrible laws that put the woman on trial for being raped, women who are too afraid to report rape in a abusive relationship etc. that deter women from reporting rape), the definition of rape (in a legal sense) is wider (so cases that aren't handled as rapes in other countries are so in Sweden) and cases of rape are counted differently (when an individual rapes the same person multiple times, that is counted as multiple cases of rape, not just one like in many other countries).
Darth Ghandi
Banned
Well Sweden has closed its boarders for quite some time now.
Regarding the social and economical situation I agree. And it won't get better with the wide spread institutionalised racism that POC face in Sweden today.
I do think that education and outreach groups should play a bigger part in the issue, and I believe they would if people invested their resources in said groups then it would be better for everyone involved.
hendersonhank
Member
According to this report, you are entirely wrong here.
Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention said:
boiled goose
good with gravy
Find the individuals. Charge them.
Simple really. Bigger cultural problem? Educate.
Simple really. Bigger cultural problem? Educate.
MonorailCat
Member
Pretty hard to educate people that don't understand your language (a large amount who can't even read/write their own language) and are indoctrinated in a completely different culture where 'womans rights' aren't even heard of.
Especially if they don't even want to be educated and are happy with their welfare check + crime earnings.
WaterAstro
Member
What counts as foreign? Norwegians? Finns?
I guess anyone outside of Swedish nationality?
I guess anyone outside of Swedish nationality?
Darth Ghandi
Banned
I would like a page to go with that quote.
Aslo from said page:
"Det ökande antalet polisanmälda fall av sexualbrott
och i synnerhet våldtäkt har rönt stor uppmärksamhet
i media, men resultaten i NTU tyder på
att omfattningen av sexualbrott varit relativt oförändrad
sedan 2006. Här bör dock noteras att frågan om
sexualbrott omfattar ett brett spektrum av händelser,
där såväl lindrigare som allvarligare brott ingår."
It basically says that the rate of sexual crimes haven't changed since 2006.
So much for "it's teh immugruntz".
Education addresses all those points.
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