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[Angry Grimace]

I used to hang out with a policeman who worked in Palm Desert and he said this is a problem at every music festival (including Coachella, etc.) it just doesn't get reported as often as it should.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I am not giving anyone a free pass. I'm not saying sexual assault by white men is somehow OK. I'm saying if a problem is larger somewhere, that needs to be solved and looked at more.

Extra attention would be for example more classes about this, extra attention from police officers in the streets, talking to parents if their kids are causing trouble and having consequences for that, putting funds into research, prevention and education, and actual clear communication with the public from police and politicians about what they do to solve this.

Would only refugees need to take the classes?
How would more harassment from police not turn into bitterness?
What kind of consequences are we talking about for young men?
How can we reach their parents who can't get a job and thus aren't integrated into society?
We have research, but what would you like to see?
Would the politicians/police only talk about young refugees?

 

[YoungFa]

Doesnt such thing happen every time at such events?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Would only refugees need to take the classes?
How would more harassment from police not turn into bitterness?
What kind of consequences are we talking about for young men?
How can we reach their parents who can't get a job and thus aren't integrated into society?
We have research, but what would you like to see?
Would the politicians/police only talk about young refugees?

Seems you want a total policy plan from me. I won't pretend I have all the answers, but I can try I guess.

Those classes would be for refugees coming into the country, but also for kids in school. Maybe extra classes for kids in mostly immigrant neighborhoods if teachers and such agree that it would be a positive. Also mandatory classes for people displaying this type of behavior and trying to prevent them from repeating it.

Extra police presence does not equal harassment. Having police walk around in your neighborhood is not them automatically targeting you or frisking you. It means extra eyes on the street where there is more trouble. For example, we have a neighborhood here where this year alone almost 50 cars are torched and the people doing this are still not caught. Extra police patrols would be welcome.

Parents are responsible for their kids, no matter if they have a job or are integrated or not. If their kids are causing trouble, that needs to be discussed with them and they need to handle it. That is called raising a kid, and if you fail and society suffers from it, you need to be called out for it.

I think looking at certain neighborhoods with more trouble and certain types of crimes that are now popping up more (for example these sexual assaults that seem to happen more, or are at least reported more) should be looked into. See how it can be prevented and research how to reach people who would do that type of thing and try to stop that before they do. This ties into the earlier education.

Politicians and police would talk about the issues that their population faces and worries about, and talks about how they are handling it or what the facts are if the representation in the media is wrong. That needs to be done in a clear way. Now most of it is either ignored or waved away, giving room for far right parties to jump in. That is not a good thing.

 

[Palette Swap]

Reading the article again, either I'm misunderstanding something or that's an awfully written report and terrible OP editing.

The way I understand it, there were two festivals with sexual violence incidents. One is rather upscale and there's nothing that points to immigration instead of festivals generally being shit for women, while in the other, the police initially pointed to foreigners before backpedalling to two being presumably refugees.

The end result, reading that selective quoting in the OP is that migrants were to blame for everything in both cases, when we don't really know shit.

On the one hand, I'm glad we're shining a spotlight on these unacceptable aggressions, but on the other I have this vague feeling that half the people wouldn't give two shits if the suspects weren't who they are (or might be).

 

[Fudgepuppy]

Whoever is doing sexual assaults is not the biggest issue, but the age old way to handle rape/sexual assault cases. The investigation is skewed and the punishments are ridiculously mild. The justice system should view rape as brutal torture and punish the guilty by those grounds.

Because dehumanizing and harsh treatment of criminals make things so much better for society...

 

[zoukka]

Because dehumanizing and harsh treatment of criminals make things so much better for society...

I'm not making such statement. I'm saying sexual crimes are treated too softly compared to other crimes. There's an inbalance. A rape destroys someones life for the rest of their lives while the punishment is a slap on the wrist.

I really like the americas way of having sexual offenders put into a public register of sort. Their lives are marked for the rest of their lives too. That is fair.

 

[moniker]

The way I understand it, there were two festivals with sexual violence incidents. One is rather upscale and there's nothing that points to immigration instead of festivals generally being shit for women, while in the other, the police initially pointed to foreigners before backpedalling to two being presumably refugees.

The end result, reading that selective quoting in the OP is that migrants were to blame for everything in both cases, when we don't really know shit.

A cop on Twitter confirmed that there were 9 arrest: 5 unaccompanied refugee children, 3 foreigners and 1 swede.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Seems you want a total policy plan from me. I won't pretend I have all the answers, but I can try I guess.

Those classes would be for refugees coming into the country, but also for kids in school. Maybe extra classes for kids in mostly immigrant neighborhoods if teachers and such agree that it would be a positive. Also mandatory classes for people displaying this type of behavior and trying to prevent them from repeating it.

Extra police presence does not equal harassment. Having police walk around in your neighborhood is not them automatically targeting you or frisking you. It means extra eyes on the street where there is more trouble. For example, we have a neighborhood here where this year alone almost 50 cars are torched and the people doing this are still not caught. Extra police patrols would be welcome.

Parents are responsible for their kids, no matter if they have a job or are integrated or not. If their kids are causing trouble, that needs to be discussed with them and they need to handle it. That is called raising a kid, and if you fail and society suffers from it, you need to be called out for it.

I think looking at certain neighborhoods with more trouble and certain types of crimes that are now popping up more (for example these sexual assaults that seem to happen more, or are at least reported more) should be looked into. See how it can be prevented and research how to reach people who would do that type of thing and try to stop that before they do. This ties into the earlier education.

Politicians and police would talk about the issues that their population faces and worries about, and talks about how they are handling it or what the facts are if the representation in the media is wrong. That needs to be done in a clear way. Now most of it is either ignored or waved away, giving room for far right parties to jump in. That is not a good thing.

Classes are a good idea. I think they should be mandatory for all men tbh.
This has to do with misogyny and it isn't exclusively one group.

Regarding the police, we used to have police presence in the form of a station but budget cuts have taken that away along with other state businesses and clinics.

Regarding the parents we have mothers in our rougher parts that walk together at night.
Those are the kind of things we should be funding.

Also sexual assualts aren't happening more according to brå as i posted earlier.
The politicians and police should try and reestablish communication and trust with minorities that suffer, not persecute them.

QUOTE=moniker;209329207]A cop on Twitter confirmed that there were 9 arrest: 5 unaccompanied refugee children, 3 foreigners and 1 swede.[/QUOTE]

So the police are lying?
So read a few lines of his tweets and he wasn't even present but "heard from people that were there".

 

[moniker]

So the police are lying?

Lying about what?

Edit: Also, please link to the tweet where he says he "heard from people that were there".

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Lying about what?

That twitter cop wasn't even present.
Perhaps he isn't telling the truth?

He is stationed in a different city.

Also:
"Kollegorna på plats säger att det inte fanns något tvivel på vilka som var gm. @Tottovovve @_bergvall"

 

[GYODX]

im pretty sure it was common, but since there weren't foreigners, nobody did a great deal about it, but eh! keep thinking that

You're just sure it was common?

You should be ashamed.

No he shouldn't.

 

[moniker]

That twitter cop wasn't even present.
Perhaps he isn't telling the truth?

He is stationed in a different city.

Also:
"Kollegorna på plats säger att det inte fanns något tvivel på vilka som var gm. @Tottovovve @_bergvall"

Why on earth would he lie? He's a distinguished cop with thousands of followers on Twitter, it's not like no one would notice.

And it lines up with what officer in charge in the region, Per-Arne Eriksson, said a few days ago (with difference that there were two suspects less then):

"In seven of the reports it is foreign young men and one is a younger man who speaks Swedish."

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Why on earth would he lie? He's a distinguished cop with thousands of followers on Twitter, it's not like no one would notice.

And it lines up with what officer in charge in the region, Per-Arne Eriksson, said a few days ago (with difference that there were two suspects less then):

"In seven of the reports it is foreign young men and one is a younger man who speaks Swedish."

Who knows. Perhaps he is given bad info, perhaps he has other motives.
But shit like this is a bit to much tinfoil hat for my taste.

 

[moniker]

Who knows. Perhaps he is given bad info, perhaps he has other motives.
But shit like this is a bit to much tinfoil hat for my taste.

The police statement was "There is no doubt about who takes these freedoms. Bunch of 7-8 guys belonging to the group of unaccompanied children".

That was what was retracted. Because it was incorrect; not every suspect was a child refugee.

At the same time as the retraction, deputy police Urban Bengtsson also said this to SVT:

"We have a man who is 35 years of age, that is very difficult to attribute to this category. But there were at least two unaccompanied [children] Friday. The other four that we identified we do not know if they are unaccompanied [children]."

There's really nothing tinfoil about this.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

The police statement was "There is no doubt about who takes these freedoms. Bunch of 7-8 guys belonging to the group of unaccompanied children".

That was what was retracted. Because it was incorrect; not every suspect was a child refugee.

At the same time as the retraction, deputy police Urban Bengtsson also said this to SVT:

"We have a man who is 35 years of age, that is very difficult to attribute to this category. But there were at least two unaccompanied [children] Friday. The other four that we identified we do not know if they are unaccompanied [children]."

There's really nothing tinfoil about this.

Two of the suspects are refugee children.
Are you saying that the rest are immigrant men cause nothing in the link you posted said so.
No source have added that anyone except those two are refugees.

 

[dave is ok]

Children don't commit sexual assault. Why do people keep saying children?

 

[TAJ]

Köln, New Year's Eve - out of 153 suspects, 149 were foreigners.

Sounds like profiling is out of control there.

 

[Violet_0]

Children don't commit sexual assault. Why do people keep saying children?

depend on the age at which you stop considering someone a child. There have been sexual assaults by assailants in their early teens and younger

 

[Fudgepuppy]

I'm not making such statement. I'm saying sexual crimes are treated too softly compared to other crimes. There's an inbalance. A rape destroys someones life for the rest of their lives while the punishment is a slap on the wrist.

I really like the americas way of having sexual offenders put into a public register of sort. Their lives are marked for the rest of their lives too. That is fair.

How about we go at the cause, rather than the symptom?

Treating criminals with the intent of them deserving justice, only creates a self serving system that changes nothing.

Also, public record? It doesn't change anything, only makes things worse. If you're a person who could possibly assault or rape someone, the register isn't going to stop you, much in the same way the death penalty wont deter you.

Not to mention that public records create witch hunts and has been proven to fuck things for so many people in innocent situations.

14 year olds sending nudes to each other? Sex offender for life!

 

[SapientWolf]

Not making light of this but random butt grinders are still a nightclub staple... Or were

I think i see a lot less of it now outside of mifdle age drunks?

I dunno im getting old

I can't go anywhere without getting grinded on these days.

 

[hobblygobbly]

Sounds like profiling is out of control there.

I don't think victims filing formal complaints to the police is profiling though, unless a large group of women are in on a conspiracy to profile and lie about it to target those people which I highly doubt.

 

[fabricated backlash]

im having a Deja Vu? or this is a common occurrence for music festivals?

Yeah it's common enough from my past experiences on festivals, most Girls I know who got touched inappropriately never made Reports though.

I can't go anywhere without getting grinded on these days.

Show-off lol

 

[zoukka]

How about we go at the cause, rather than the symptom?

Treating criminals with the intent of them deserving justice, only creates a self serving system that changes nothing.

Also, public record? It doesn't change anything, only makes things worse. If you're a person who could possibly assault or rape someone, the register isn't going to stop you, much in the same way the death penalty wont deter you.

Not to mention that public records create witch hunts and has been proven to fuck things for so many people in innocent situations.

14 year olds sending nudes to each other? Sex offender for life!

I agree to many points you make and I'm not an advocate of harsh punishments in general, I truly believe in the scandinavian justice policy EXCEPT when it comes to sexual crimes because the punishments do not fit the crime in any way. Is it the paternal legacy of times when women had less human rights than men and that legacy still lives on through sex crime legislation.

We cannot easily change all men, but the answer is education from early childhood (teaching about sexuality, sexual excemption and absolute equality between sexes) and a general change in how we perceive the crime (harsh punishments that fit the heinous and brutal nature of the crime).

I mean nobody has a problem when we send a person who takes someones freedom, kidnaps, tortures people to a LONG prison sentence and mental evaluation. None of this happens when you rape someone. This is a huge, dark problem in our society.

 

[justjohn]

Reading the article again, either I'm misunderstanding something or that's an awfully written report and terrible OP editing.

The way I understand it, there were two festivals with sexual violence incidents. One is rather upscale and there's nothing that points to immigration instead of festivals generally being shit for women, while in the other, the police initially pointed to foreigners before backpedalling to two being presumably refugees.

The end result, reading that selective quoting in the OP is that migrants were to blame for everything in both cases, when we don't really know shit.

On the one hand, I'm glad we're shining a spotlight on these unacceptable aggressions, but on the other I have this vague feeling that half the people wouldn't give two shits if the suspects weren't who they are (or might be).

This thread wouldn't exist if the suspects weerent migrants.
Op actually said prepare for more this happening in Europe as if sexual assaults didn't exist before migrants. Lmao

 

[ClosingADoor]

Classes are a good idea. I think they should be mandatory for all men tbh.
This has to do with misogyny and it isn't exclusively one group.

Regarding the police, we used to have police presence in the form of a station but budget cuts have taken that away along with other state businesses and clinics.

Regarding the parents we have mothers in our rougher parts that walk together at night.
Those are the kind of things we should be funding.

Also sexual assualts aren't happening more according to brå as i posted earlier.
The politicians and police should try and reestablish communication and trust with minorities that suffer, not persecute them.

I agree. But since there are limited resources, it would be most effective to start those things with the groups doing most of this. That is just targeting a problem in the most effective way. I still don't understand why this is such a problem for you. If a problem is larger in one area, you focus more attention towards that instead of simply saying "it happens everywhere." Don't you agree that when brought up in an environment with larger problematic views towards women's right, gay rights, etc, those people will display more of that behavior and because of that it is more effective to try and target prevention programs more towards those groups?

Those budget cuts should be reversed and more funds made available where possible then. And of course people themselves watching their neighborhood is a good thing, but I'd rather not that it is needed and have professionals on that with the authority to intervene when needed. For just youth hanging around, having community members talk to them is a good way to go, but for actual crime you don't want members of the public involved too much.

And yes, of course politicians and police should have better communication and establish more trust with the communities. But I don't think that is a valid excuse for the people doing these kind of things also. It looks like shifting the blame away a bit, while I a very much for personal responsibility in these cases.

That reestablishment of trust with police and politicians should also be done with the larger public. Since at the moment, I don't think many people trust them to come with actual solutions to the problems they perceive are happening. So they should work on 1) fixing the problem and 2) take away the misconceptions about the problem if there are any.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I agree. But since there are limited resources, it would be most effective to start those things with the groups doing most of this. That is just targeting a problem in the most effective way. I still don't understand why this is such a problem for you. If a problem is larger in one area, you focus more attention towards that instead of simply saying "it happens everywhere." Don't you agree that when brought up in an environment with larger problematic views towards women's right, gay rights, etc, those people will display more of that behavior and because of that it is more effective to try and target prevention programs more towards those groups?

Those budget cuts should be reversed and more funds made available where possible then. And of course people themselves watching their neighborhood is a good thing, but I'd rather not that it is needed and have professionals on that with the authority to intervene when needed. For just youth hanging around, having community members talk to them is a good way to go, but for actual crime you don't want members of the public involved too much.

And yes, of course politicians and police should have better communication and establish more trust with the communities. But I don't think that is a valid excuse for the people doing these kind of things also. It looks like shifting the blame away a bit, while I a very much for personal responsibility in these cases.

That reestablishment of trust with police and politicians should also be done with the larger public. Since at the moment, I don't think many people trust them to come with actual solutions to the problems they perceive are happening. So they should work on 1) fixing the problem and 2) take away the misconceptions about the problem if there are any.

Once again you are painting this as a problem in a certain group. I don't believe that it is an question of integration.
If you said that we must combat this in all areas I would support you. Women (and data) have been saying for decades that suxual violence isn't just more predominant in one group.
Why can't you understand that?
You re just thinking of the sexual assaults that get media attention while ignoring the larger picture.


Again we re drifting from from what this thread was about.
You are painting a picture that doesn't take into account the racism that POC must face and using very bread strokes.
If you want to talk about integration then i recommend making a thread regarding that subject instead of speaking about it in a thread were the OP tries quite dishonestly to draw a line between sexual assaults on two different places and link them with refugees, and then you linking it all to integration.
This isn't the first time I've come across people who want to link the refugee crisis with sexual assaults (when no data supports that claim).
Hell I've even seen people on FB make the argument that it is better to be raped by people you know in your home (this of coarse being the white guys who rape) then raped outside (which is claimed as a none European thing) but again with no data to back it up.

In light of that I find this conversation most unsettling and I don't think we will get any further cause you will just point at immigrants and say "but they are much worse".
If you want a discussion please use relevant data and information.

 

[Bel Marduk]

Maybe some social integration classes could help.

Yes, social integration classes will help people who think rape is ok.

 

[iPaul93]

Disgusting.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Once again you are painting this as a problem in a certain group. I don't believe that it is an question of integration.
If you said that we must combat this in all areas I would support you. Women (and data) have been saying for decades that suxual violence isn't just more predominant in one group.
Why can't you understand that?
You re just thinking of the sexual assaults that get media attention while ignoring the larger picture.


Again we re drifting from from what this thread was about.
You are painting a picture that doesn't take into account the racism that POC must face and using very bread strokes.
If you want to talk about integration then i recommend making a thread regarding that subject instead of speaking about it in a thread were the OP tries quite dishonestly to draw a line between sexual assaults on two different places and link them with refugees, and then you linking it all to integration.
This isn't the first time I've come across people who want to link the refugee crisis with sexual assaults (when no data supports that claim).
Hell I've even seen people on FB make the argument that it is better to be raped by people you know in your home (this of coarse being the white guys who rape) then raped outside (which is claimed as a none European thing) but again with no data to back it up.

In light of that I find this conversation most unsettling and I don't think we will get any further cause you will just point at immigrants and say "but they are much worse".
If you want a discussion please use relevant data and information.

But I have shown you the stats of people from immigrant background being 3 times more likely to be suspect of sexual assault - at least for my country. So there are more problems with it within that group. It is not limited to that group - I have never said that, and I agree that it should also be fought everywhere - but it occurs more and because of that it should be fought even harder.

I think we can all agree that countries in the Middle-east and Northern Africa (we are talking mostly Muslim immigrants when it comes to these discussions) have a worse record when it comes to women's rights then Western countries now. So if someone is brought up within that, it is not strange that they have a higher chance to display that kind of behavior themselves. You are where you grow up a lot of the time, that is just human. So then when people from there move towards a Western country - where we have come further on these issues, but are far from perfect - I don't think it is strange to have specific attention towards this subject then.

I really don't see this specific issue as racism. Please don't group me together with crazy people you see on Facebook, because I am not making those kind of arguments at all.

People who are raping or doing sexual assault are bad people no matter what of course. And they are not suddenly worse when they come from an immigrant background. I'm just saying, when it occurs more within those communities, it is not wrong to call that out and try to improve that situation.

And yes, you are right that within this specific case the thread is about, it seems there was faulty information and we shouldn't jump to conclusions right away. Although to me it isn't exactly clear what the truth is now - I don't speak Swedish myself to read up on the links sometimes here. Stuff like that also leads to bad things, so police should just be open about it I think.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

But I have shown you the stats of people from immigrant background being 3 times more likely to be suspect of sexual assault - at least for my country. So there are more problems with it within that group. It is not limited to that group - I have never said that, and I agree that it should also be fought everywhere - but it occurs more and because of that it should be fought even harder.

I think we can all agree that countries in the Middle-east and Northern Africa (we are talking mostly Muslim immigrants when it comes to these discussions) have a worse record when it comes to women's rights then Western countries now. So if someone is brought up within that, it is not strange that they have a higher chance to display that kind of behavior themselves. You are where you grow up a lot of the time, that is just human. So then when people from there move towards a Western country - where we have come further on these issues, but are far from perfect - I don't think it is strange to have specific attention towards this subject then.

I really don't see this specific issue as racism. Please don't group me together with crazy people you see on Facebook, because I am not making those kind of arguments at all.

People who are raping or doing sexual assault are bad people no matter what of course. And they are not suddenly worse when they come from an immigrant background. I'm just saying, when it occurs more within those communities, it is not wrong to call that out and try to improve that situation.

And yes, you are right that within this specific case the thread is about, it seems there was faulty information and we shouldn't jump to conclusions right away. Although to me it isn't exactly clear what the truth is now - I don't speak Swedish myself to read up on the links sometimes here. Stuff like that also leads to bad things, so police should just be open about it I think.

You haven't show any data that I am aware of.
Infact after the We are stockholm and other incidents the Swedish police went through tens of thousands of reports between 2011-2016 regarding sexual assaults.
The conclusion was the following:
”Den övervägande delen av de utsatta är flickor som är yngre än femton år, men det förekommer brott även mot unga pojkar. Brott begångna på offentlig plats, till exempel i folksamlingar och på festivalområden, är förhållandevis få och utgör endast en dryg procent av det totala antalet brott. De allra flesta gärningsmän agerar ensamma och utsätter unga flickor vanligen för fysiska beröringar som upplevs som obehagliga. Antalet anmälda brott där gärningsmännen är fler än en är få.”

" The majority of the victims are girls who are younger than fifteen years , but there are also offenses against young boys. Crimes committed in a public place , such as in crowds and festival areas are relatively few and represent only one per cent of the total number of crimes. The vast majority of offenders acting alone and exposes young girls usually for physical touches that are perceived as unpleasant . The number of reported crimes where the perpetrators are more than a few . "



So to conclude what the POLICE reports said:
The vast majority of sexual assault crimes are perpetrated by lone perps who don't belong to any homogenous group.

Source:
https://polisen.se/Global/www och Intrapolis/Övriga rapporter/Lagesbild over sexuella ofredanden.pdf

Those FACTS kinda make the rest of your text just assumptions and your biased fears.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You haven't show any data that I am aware of.
Infact after the We are stockholm and other incidents the Swedish police went through tens of thousands of reports between 2011-2016 regarding sexual assaults.
The conclusion was the following:
”Den övervägande delen av de utsatta är flickor som är yngre än femton år, men det förekommer brott även mot unga pojkar. Brott begångna på offentlig plats, till exempel i folksamlingar och på festivalområden, är förhållandevis få och utgör endast en dryg procent av det totala antalet brott. De allra flesta gärningsmän agerar ensamma och utsätter unga flickor vanligen för fysiska beröringar som upplevs som obehagliga. Antalet anmälda brott där gärningsmännen är fler än en är få.”

" The majority of the victims are girls who are younger than fifteen years , but there are also offenses against young boys. Crimes committed in a public place , such as in crowds and festival areas are relatively few and represent only one per cent of the total number of crimes. The vast majority of offenders acting alone and exposes young girls usually for physical touches that are perceived as unpleasant . The number of reported crimes where the perpetrators are more than a few . "



So to conclude what the POLICE reports said:
The vast majority of sexual assault crimes are perpetrated by lone perps who don't belong to any homogenous group.

Source:
https://polisen.se/Global/www och Intrapolis/Övriga rapporter/Lagesbild over sexuella ofredanden.pdf

Those FACTS kinda make the rest of your text just assumptions and your biased fears.

Maybe you missed it as it was part of my edit earlier:

Edit: When talking about sexual assault here in the Netherlands, immigrant groups are very over represented btw. People with (Northern) African and Middle-eastern background are 3 times as much suspect in these crimes as locals. That was for 2005 (http://nl.aup.nl/wosmedia/296/vol_83...etniciteit.pdf - Dutch research) so the actual worries about this are not that unfounded.

I'm talking wider sexual assault here, not just festivals.

And again, I don't think it is that strange to say people who grew up in an environment with more problematic views towards women's right will display that behavior more and we can try to combat that by campaigns and efforts targeted towards that group.

Edit: Also, this seems to be the same in Sweden. "In addition, male immigrants were three times more likely to be investigated for violent assault, and five times more likely to be investigated for sex crimes." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime#Sweden with the source pointing to this research https://www.bra.se/bra/publikatione...-personer-fodda-i-sverige-och-i-utlandet.html

Edit 2: Also, your link says this: Where the crimes carried out by offenders in a larger group of public places and indoor swimming pools are the perpetrators were mainly young people looking for or have recently received asylum in Sweden. Or is that a mistranslation?

 

[moniker]

So to conclude what the POLICE reports said:
The vast majority of sexual assault crimes are perpetrated by lone perps who don't belong to any homogenous group.

Source:
https://polisen.se/Global/www och Intrapolis/Övriga rapporter/Lagesbild over sexuella ofredanden.pdf

Those FACTS kinda make the rest of your text just assumptions and your biased fears.

Maybe you should read that report more in detail:

Page 11:

In at least ten of the cases, a lone girl was encircled by several men (from 5-6 to a large amount)

..


Few suspected perpetrators have been identified. Those who have been identified are citizens of Afghanistan, Eritrea and Somalia. All investigations in Stockholm and Kalmar from 2014 and 2015 have been closed due to difficulties with the identification or lack of evidence.

Page 12:

In reports from 2015, only seventeen suspected perpetrators been identified and their citizenships shows that four are Swedish citizen and the remainder is foreign. Another seventeen were arrested but the identity has not been established.

Page 15:

In 80 percent of the complaints from the public baths, the perpetrators were of stated or established foreign origin. Most lacked a Swedish personal identity number and reports indicated that they belonged to groups of asylum seeking boys.

Page 22:

The suspects in the crimes carried out by a large group of offenders, in a public place, were mainly those with foreign citizenship. With crimes reported in swimming pools, the suspect were mainly asylum seekeing boys.

If you want numbers, you should check out BRÅ 2005:17, page 41.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

The only cases where refugees were in the majority was group sexual assaults.
That is true.

But the majority of sexual assaults were perpetrated by none homogenous men according to the report.

So unless you guys are trying to make the case that sexual assaults made by groups are in some way worse then you still don't have jack.

This report wasn't just focused on sexual assaults at festivals.

The funny thing is how people like you two just ignore the facts that build the bigger picture to focus on refugees. While this isn't a problem exclusive to them.

 

[ClosingADoor]

The only cases where refugees were in the majority was group sexual assaults.
That is true.

But the majority of sexual assaults were perpetrated by none homogenous men according to the report.

So unless you guys are trying to make the case that sexual assaults made by groups are in some way worse then you still don't have jack.

This report wasn't just focused on sexual assaults at festivals.

The funny thing is how people like you two just ignore the facts that build the bigger picture to focus on refugees. While this isn't a problem exclusive to them.

I don't really know what you are getting at. My whole point this thread has been basically this: certain immigrant groups have been over represented in crime, also in sexual assault and related crime, and that deserves a more targeted approach to prevent future incidents. Am I in any way being unreasonable here?

The statistics I have shown and the ones from your own linked report support that statement, that they are over represented in these crimes. This is the bigger picture, I'm not focusing on refugees in particular here. Is it exclusive to those groups? No. I have never said that. Is it a larger problem within those groups? Yes, as shown by the statistics. So why is it so strange to call that out and say that deserves a look to the reasons behind it and the approach in handling it?

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I don't really know what you are getting at. My whole point this thread has been basically this: certain immigrant groups have been over represented in crime, also in sexual assault and related crime, and that deserves a more targeted approach to prevent future incidents. Am I in any way being unreasonable here?

The statistics I have shown and the ones from your own linked report support that statement, that they are over represented in these crimes. This is the bigger picture, I'm not focusing on refugees in particular here.

What I'm getting at is that you are wrong. They aren't over represented.
They are only over represented in group sexual assaults, NOT SEXUAL ASSAULTS AS A WHOLE. CAUSE GROUP ATTACKS ARE ONLY A SMALL PIECE OF THE PUZZEL.

You are focusing on them by saying that they are over represented when they aren't according to my source.

 

[ClosingADoor]

What I'm getting at is that you are wrong. They aren't over represented.
They are only over represented in group sexual assaults, NOT SEXUAL ASSAULTS AS A WHOLE. CAUSE GROUP ATTACKS ARE ONLY A SMALL PIECE OF THE PUZZEL.

You are focusing on them by saying that they are over represented when they aren't according to my source.

But they are. Look at the stats I linked and the one from moniker. I was wrong in saying your document shows that, I was looking at monikers, thinking they were the same for a bit.

 

[Jasup]

What I'm getting at is that you are wrong. They aren't over represented.
They are only over represented in group sexual assaults, NOT SEXUAL ASSAULTS AS A WHOLE. CAUSE GROUP ATTACKS ARE ONLY A SMALL PIECE OF THE PUZZEL.

You are focusing on them by saying that they are over represented when they aren't according to my source.

But they are. Look at the stats.

Guys guys, calm down. You're talking past each other and about different numbers.

Darth Ghandi is right that of all the sexual assaults most are done by someone within the ethnic majority.
ClosingADoor is also right, people in certain immigrant groups are overpresented in sexual assault statistics.

One is talking about absolute numbers and the other about shares. I would like to point out that something's lost in translation because I had to double check this: "In addition, male immigrants were three times more likely to be investigated for violent assault, and five times more likely to be investigated for sex crimes." Taken out of context it easily reads that of all sex crimes there are five times more immigrant males investigated than ethnic majority, which is not the case.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

But they are. Look at the stats I linked and the one from moniker. I was wrong in saying your document shows that, I was looking at monikers, thinking they were the same for a bit.

Are you talking about the wikipedia link you used?
I prefer stats from real sources.

And no they are only over represented in group assaults.
The following article sums up my pointts and thoughts pretty accurately with the researcher Carl Göran Svedin.

"Carl Göran Svedin think we make it too easy for us by just focusing on the abuse that stand out.
- It's everyday behavior , we should focus on, not the festival behavior . Refugee children are a problem in itself but which can not be the focus of debate .
Police investigation shows that refugee youth were overrepresented partly at the 40 festival abuses but also at the 123 complaints made ​​about sexual molestation at the bathhouse. Regarding other notification categories you see no such pattern.
Neither the studies of sexual victimization among 18 -year-olds Carl Göran Svedin and his colleagues conducted (2004 , 2009 , 2014) have shown an over-representation of foreign youngsters."

Source: http://www.aftonbladet.se/senastenytt/ttnyheter/inrikes/article23099730.ab

So again we have 3300 cases last year but YOU think we should focus on 40 of those.
Don't you see how idiotic that is?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Are you talking about the wikipedia link you used?
I prefer stats from real sources.

And no they are only over represented in group assaults.
The following article sums up my pointts and thoughts pretty accurately with the researcher Carl Göran Svedin.

"Carl Göran Svedin think we make it too easy for us by just focusing on the abuse that stand out.
- It's everyday behavior , we should focus on, not the festival behavior . Refugee children are a problem in itself but which can not be the focus of debate .
Police investigation shows that refugee youth were overrepresented partly at the 40 festival abuses but also at the 123 complaints made ​​about sexual molestation at the bathhouse. Regarding other notification categories you see no such pattern.
Neither the studies of sexual victimization among 18 -year-olds Carl Göran Svedin and his colleagues conducted (2004 , 2009 , 2014) have shown an over-representation of foreign youngsters."

Source: http://www.aftonbladet.se/senastenytt/ttnyheter/inrikes/article23099730.ab

So again we have 3300 cases last year but YOU think we should focus on 40 of those.
Don't you see how idiotic that is?

I don't think you are understanding me right. Those 40 cases are cases at festivals. I am looking at it wider, in all assaults. Maybe this isn't exactly the thread for that, since the OP was about these specific cases, but I thought the discussion had gotten more general then that towards all sexual assaults. Apologies if that lead to any confusion. The stats point at an over representation of immigrants and people from immigrant descent in those cases.

- Dutch source for my country: http://nl.aup.nl/wosmedia/296/vol_83_no_2_-_zedendelinquentie_en_etniciteit.pdf (3 times as much per 10.000 residents)
- Swedish source linked by moniker and the source for my Wikipedia quote: https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba8...bland_personer_fodda_sverige_och_utlandet.pdf (3 times more in sexual assault, 5 times as much for rape / attempted rape).

I don't get how the other research you link shows something else, when the two above are based on official police data as far as I can see. Do you know where they are getting their data, because I don't see actual links to the research in the article you posted.

And again, I am not saying ignore all the other cases. I am just saying that when a problem occurs more within a certain group, focus more attention towards solving that, since it will simply lead to more effective results. Is there anything wrong with that? It is better to prevent, certainly with cases like this which can lead to life long traumas for the victim. So if these groups are more at risk to display that behavior, use the resources available - and increase those resources - if possible to fix it.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I don't think you are understanding me right. Those 40 cases are cases at festivals. I am looking at it wider, in all assaults. Maybe this isn't exactly the thread for that, since the OP was about these specific cases, but I thought the discussion had gotten more general then that towards all sexual assaults. Apologies if that lead to any confusion. The stats point at an over representation of immigrants and people from immigrant descent in those cases.

- Dutch source for my country: http://nl.aup.nl/wosmedia/296/vol_83_no_2_-_zedendelinquentie_en_etniciteit.pdf (3 times as much per 10.000 residents)
- Swedish source linked by moniker and the source for my Wikipedia quote: https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba8...bland_personer_fodda_sverige_och_utlandet.pdf (3 times more in sexual assault, 5 times as much for rape / attempted rape).

I don't get how the other research you link shows something else, when the two above are based on official police data as far as I can see. Do you know where they are getting their data, because I don't see actual links to the research in the article you posted.

And again, I am not saying ignore all the other cases. I am just saying that when a problem occurs more within a certain group, focus more attention towards solving that, since it will simply lead to more effective results. Is there anything wrong with that? It is better to prevent, certainly with cases like this which can lead to life long traumas for the victim. So if these groups are more at risk to display that behavior, use the resources available - and increase those resources - if possible to fix it.

Yes and according looking at it wider shows that they are a small part according to the LATEST reports.
The sources you use are old and talk about and are part of on study.

Or could you answer my why we should use old studies over the newer?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yes and according looking at it wider shows that they are a small part according to the LATEST reports.
The sources you use are old and talk about and are part of on study.

Or could you answer my why we should use old studies over the newer?

It seems to be very hard to find any recent numbers regarding ethnicity and crime for some reason. I have not seen any numbers from your sources also, beside a newspaper article instead of the actual research, how those numbers are gathered and what they are related to.

What I can give you is my local situation, where it is very easy to find these numbers, although they are not specific to sexual assault. Those are grouped under "violent crime", which make it a bit difficult to draw conclusions for this specific situation. But it shows the following per 10.000 residents:

2013: 40 for all, 122 for people of non-Western descent.
2014: 37 for all, 113 for non-Western descent.
2015: 33 for all, 98 for non-Western descent (good drop, but still 3 times higher, just like the links posted earlier show)

Source: CBS which would be the official statistics agency here.

Now I can't find any recent sources for Sweden, I don't know if they register the ethnicity there in official reports?

Again, I am just saying that it appears to happen more within those groups and it would be good to put specific attention to that to further drop those levels where possible.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

It seems to be very hard to find any recent numbers regarding ethnicity and crime for some reason. I have not seen any numbers from your sources also, beside a newspaper article instead of the actual research, how those numbers are gathered and what they are related to.

What I can give you is my local situation, where it is very easy to find these numbers, although they are not specific to sexual assault. Those are grouped under "violent crime", which make it a bit difficult to draw conclusions for this specific situation. But it shows the following per 10.000 residents:

2013: 40 for all, 122 for people of non-Western descent.
2014: 37 for all, 113 for non-Western descent.
2015: 33 for all, 98 for non-Western descent (good drop, but still 3 times higher, just like the links posted earlier show)

Source: CBS which would be the official statistics agency here.

Now I can't find any recent sources for Sweden, I don't know if they register the ethnicity there in official reports?

Again, I am just saying that it appears to happen more within those groups and it would be good to put specific attention to that to further drop those levels where possible.

The link I gave you earlier in the thread had relevant contemporary data.
http://www.brottsrummet.se/sv/sexualbrott

That is the data that backs up the claim the interview with the researcher (who had done studies on the subject).

Now you are moving the goalposts from their supposed overrepresentation (in SWEDEN) to statistics in your country, statistics that I haven't read up on.
I'm done with you.

 

[ClosingADoor]

The link I gave you earlier in the thread had relevant contemporary data.
http://www.brottsrummet.se/sv/sexualbrott

That is the data that backs up the claim the interview with the researcher (who had done studies on the subject).

Now you are moving the goalposts from their supposed overrepresentation (in SWEDEN) to statistics in your country, statistics that I haven't read up on.
I'm done with you.

No, I am not moving anything. I have constantly placed the incident in a wider context and previously used data from my country - also European, facing about the same immigration challenges as Sweden. Then you asked about more recent data, which I have linked to in my previous post. I have not been able to find more recent data for Sweden then the previous linked one from moniker and linked at Wikipedia.

The link you are giving me here does not tell me anything. This says that "most sexual crimes take place indoors, often at home." It does not give any numbers or provide any other details. It also does not tell how many attacks are done by strangers. It does not mention ethnicity or background of the perpetrators. In such, it does not at all dispute the numbers from the earlier research you deemed too old to be used.

I feel like you are talking about a totally separate thing then I am, leading to a lot of confusion.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

No, I am not moving anything. I have constantly placed the incident in a wider context and previously used data from my country - also European, facing about the same immigration challenges as Sweden. Then you asked about more recent data, which I have linked to in my previous post. I have not been able to find more recent data for Sweden then the previous linked one from moniker and linked at Wikipedia.

The link you are giving me here does not tell me anything. This says that "most sexual crimes take place indoors, often at home." It does not give any numbers or provide any other details. It also does not tell how many attacks are done by strangers. It does not mention ethnicity or background of the perpetrators. In such, it does not at all dispute the numbers from the earlier research you deemed too old to be used.

I feel like you are talking about a totally separate thing then I am, leading to a lot of confusion.

You claim that you are talking about wider context but still focus on refugees? Or is it 2nd immigration immigrants now? That is just the thing, when we are talking about one thing you start talking about something different (moving goal posts).

You are still using OLD sources that aren't up to date.

This thread was about things that happened in Sweden. Now you are moving it to the EU.
If you want to make a thread about the sexual crime statistics of the EU then fine, but please let the goal posts stay.

The site I linked to is run BY BRÅ (the people who deal with crime statistics in Sweden).
They based said page on infor like the NTU report but also the NTU report and the police report after the Köln attacks.
They also have gotten statistics and from from several big state lead and sponsored organizations:

Brå, Friends, Polisen, Socialstyrelsen, Barnombudsmannen, Rädda Barnen, Brottsoffermyndigheten

So again not one site with relevant up to date information supports your claims regarding Sweden.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You claim that you are talking about wider context but still focus on refugees? Or is it 2nd immigration immigrants now? That is just the thing, when we are talking about one thing you start talking about something different (moving goal posts).

You are still using OLD sources that aren't up to date.

This thread was about things that happened in Sweden. Now you are moving it to the EU.
If you want to make a thread about the sexual crime statistics of the EU then fine, but please let the goal posts stay.

The site I linked to is run BY BRÅ (the people who deal with crime statistics in Sweden).
They based said page on infor like the NTU report but also the NTU report and the police report after the Köln attacks.
They also have gotten statistics and from from several big state lead and sponsored organizations:

Brå, Friends, Polisen, Socialstyrelsen, Barnombudsmannen, Rädda Barnen, Brottsoffermyndigheten

So again not one site with relevant up to date information supports your claims regarding Sweden.

I am not focusing on refugees. My contributions to this thread started as an answer to someone that said this stuff happened everywhere and was not limit to people from Middle-eastern descent. I agreed with that - every group of people commits crimes and they are all just as bad -, but talked about how immigrants from that background are actually over represented in crime and sexual assault and such also, so that deserves attention to fix where possible. If somewhere a problem is bigger, you try to look at why and how to fix it. You say that is not true, while the statistics show otherwise and the conversation went from there.

The page you are talking about is this one right? http://www.brottsrummet.se/sv/sexualbrott

Because I don't see anything on that page with actual numbers, nor anything about the background of the perpetrators. The only thing that page says is that most sexual assault - again no numbers - happens with people known to the victim, which I never denied. I am unable to find recent Swedish numbers when it comes to this, but I have yet to see you produce statistics also that show the 2005 numbers are outdated and things have changed since then.

Again, I am only saying that these immigrant groups are over represented in crime and these kind of crimes in particular - since that is what the thread is about - and it would not be a bad idea to see how that can be fixed by a targeted approach. I really don't get how anybody can find anything offensive or bad about that.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I am not focusing on refugees. My contributions to this thread started as an answer to someone that said this stuff happened everywhere and was not limit to people from Middle-eastern descent. I agreed with that - every group of people commits crimes and they are all just as bad -, but talked about how immigrants from that background are actually over represented in crime and sexual assault and such also, so that deserves attention to fix where possible. If somewhere a problem is bigger, you try to look at why and how to fix it. You say that is not true, while the statistics show otherwise and the conversation went from there.

The page you are talking about is this one right? http://www.brottsrummet.se/sv/sexualbrott

Because I don't see anything on that page with actual numbers, nor anything about the background of the perpetrators. The only thing that page says is that most sexual assault - again no numbers - happens with people known to the victim, which I never denied. I am unable to find recent Swedish numbers when it comes to this, but I have yet to see you produce statistics also that show the 2005 numbers are outdated and things have changed since then.

Again, I am only saying that these immigrant groups are over represented in crime and these kind of crimes in particular - since that is what the thread is about - and it would not be a bad idea to see how that can be fixed by a targeted approach. I really don't get how anybody can find anything offensive or bad about that.

So this thread was created by someone who took two festivals and the said attacks carried out by immigrants.

Several drive by posters try and link the the attacks to refugees.

Then you said "Disgusting stuff. And not the first time either. This needs to be handled before this becomes more and more commonplace."

The a page later you start talking about 2nd/3rd generations cause people showed facts from Sweden that don't correlate with the sexual assaults going up with the refugee crisis.
Hence moving the goal post.

If you want to talk about integrational problems I'm up for it.
But not in a thread were there is no evidence that 2nd generations had anything to do with it. And you suck for trying to make this about them.

 

[ClosingADoor]

So this thread was created by someone who took two festivals and the said attacks carried out by immigrants.

Several drive by posters try and link the the attacks to refugees.

Then you said "Disgusting stuff. And not the first time either. This needs to be handled before this becomes more and more commonplace."

The a page later you start talking about 2nd/3rd generations cause people showed facts from Sweden that don't correlate with the sexual assaults going up with the refugee crisis.
Hence moving the goal post.

If you want to talk about integrational problems I'm up for it.
But not in a thread were there is no evidence that 2nd generations had anything to do with it. And you suck for trying to make this about them.

You are right, I did make a post before that saying I was disgusted with these things - as everyone should be, no matter who the perpetrators are. And I was referring to similar incidents that happened before in Germany when talking about that.

After that the conversation moved a bit. The OP did not specify refugees, but was talking about "foreigners", which to me seemed more talking about immigrants in general.

You make it more about the refugee crisis then me here. From the start I think I have talked about immigration in general and the over representation of crime and sexual assault in particular within groups from Middle-eastern and Northern African descent, since most immigration debates are about those groups. If there was any confusion about that or you think that is off-topic, my apologies.

I have then shown the statistics that prove that is happening. You deny those statistics, but don't supply your own. The link you provide does not do anything to disprove the earlier statistics provided for both Sweden and my home country.

 

[jts]

I'm an immigrant in a Nordic country and unfortunately yeah a lot of what's been written here is true

 

[Darth Ghandi]

You are right, I did make a post before that saying I was disgusted with these things - as everyone should be, no matter who the perpetrators are. And I was referring to similar incidents that happened before in Germany when talking about that.

After that the conversation moved a bit. The OP did not specify refugees, but was talking about "foreigners", which to me seemed more talking about immigrants in general.

You make it more about the refugee crisis then me here. From the start I think I have talked about immigration in general and the over representation of crime and sexual assault in particular within groups from Middle-eastern and Northern African descent, since most immigration debates are about those groups. If there was any confusion about that or you think that is off-topic, my apologies.

I have then shown the statistics that prove that is happening. You deny those statistics, but don't supply your own. The link you provide does not do anything to disprove the earlier statistics provided for both Sweden and my home country.

Posters on the first page did indeed ay that things like this didn't happen before the "mass migrations crisis".

First!
Still NOTHING except 2 out of 7 in Karlstad are proven to be of foreign decent.
So I would call it a problem that you are linking attacks at two festivals with a broader picture of supposed views of 2nd generation immigrants.
It is down right shameful.

Second the stats you used are from 2005 and the site I linked to is BRÅs current information site.

Third BRÅ stated in regards to the 2005 statistics that:
"– Forskning kring diskriminering inom rättsväsendet visar tydligt att invandrare särbehandlas i alla steg i rättsprocessen. De anmäls oftare, de grips i större utsträckning, de utreds mycket mer noggrant, de misstänks oftare och de lagförs oftare, säger Klara Hradilova Selin."

So in other words immigrants are more likely to be discriminated against under the course of a investigation, hence the larger offense rate.

Also since 2005 Sweden has changed it's law regarding rape to include every single time as a separate rape.

Fast forward to 2016 the police do: https://polisen.se/Global/www och Intrapolis/Övriga rapporter/Lagesbild over sexuella ofredanden.pdf

Which shows that the perpetrators aren't one homogeneous group.
Except in group attacks.
But to be fair the reports only mentions people who are swedish citizens and not swedish citizens.
But again I must point to the statement by BRÅ:
"– Forskning kring diskriminering inom rättsväsendet visar tydligt att invandrare särbehandlas i alla steg i rättsprocessen. De anmäls oftare, de grips i större utsträckning, de utreds mycket mer noggrant, de misstänks oftare och de lagförs oftare, säger Klara Hradilova Selin."

So again I don't really buy your idea whole sale that 2nd immigration people really are over represented.
And I'm guessing if you followed the info that BRÅ releases then you would say the same.