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[MatrixMan.EXE]

Children don't commit sexual assault. Why do people keep saying children?

Not true. There have been many cases involving children in their early teens or younger committing acts of sexual assault and rape.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Posters on the first page did indeed ay that things like this didn't happen before the "mass migrations crisis".

First!
Still NOTHING except 2 out of 7 in Karlstad are proven to be of foreign decent.
So I would call it a problem that you are linking attacks at two festivals with a broader picture of supposed views of 2nd generation immigrants.
It is down right shameful.

This information came to light later, although it is still a bit unclear to me who has done the attacks specifically. I think the lack of clarity in these cases are also a problem, since it contributes to the environment of distrust of police, politics and immigrants that is going on lately. I addressed this earlier and said there should be clear communications about this. The earlier linked article from The Guardian only talks about 2 refugees, but not who the other perpetrators are.

I am not linking anything, the discussion went this way and I contributed to it. Yes, my posts have not been limited to these specific attacks, but there is little discussion to be had about those aside from saying "well, that's terrible". To have a discussion about it, you need to look at the larger picture instead of a single incident.

I don't know why this is "shameful" next to the accusations of being "idiotic" and that I "suck" from you before.

Second the stats you used are from 2005 and the site I linked to is BRÅs current information site.

Third BRÅ stated in regards to the 2005 statistics that:
"– Forskning kring diskriminering inom rättsväsendet visar tydligt att invandrare särbehandlas i alla steg i rättsprocessen. De anmäls oftare, de grips i större utsträckning, de utreds mycket mer noggrant, de misstänks oftare och de lagförs oftare, säger Klara Hradilova Selin."

So in other words immigrants are more likely to be discriminated against under the course of a investigation, hence the larger offense rate.

Also since 2005 Sweden has changed it's law regarding rape to include every single time as a separate rape.

Fast forward to 2016 the police do: https://polisen.se/Global/www och Intrapolis/Övriga rapporter/Lagesbild over sexuella ofredanden.pdf

Which shows that the perpetrators aren't one homogeneous group.
Except in group attacks.
But to be fair the reports only mentions people who are swedish citizens and not swedish citizens.
But again I must point to the statement by BRÅ:
"– Forskning kring diskriminering inom rättsväsendet visar tydligt att invandrare särbehandlas i alla steg i rättsprocessen. De anmäls oftare, de grips i större utsträckning, de utreds mycket mer noggrant, de misstänks oftare och de lagförs oftare, säger Klara Hradilova Selin."

So again I don't really buy your idea whole sale that 2nd immigration people really are over represented.
And I'm guessing if you followed the info that BRÅ releases then you would say the same.

The two bolded sentences conflict. If the report does not mention their background, how can you come to the conclusion that the situation has changed since the 2005 report, which did include that and found an over representation from people born to two foreign parents?

And again, I am just saying that because we see more of this behavior from some groups, that should get extra attention to fix it. Why is that a problem to say? If there is a larger problem within a certain community, you look at how you can help to fix that for the benefit of everyone involved.

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

Festivals are prime for this shit.

Last year a guy grabbed my girlfriends ass pretty blatantly. I grabbed him by the neck and just punched him over and over and then his friends showed up and my friends jumped in and it turned into a brawl. Violence and sexual assaults are unfortunately very common at these events.

I've seen some crazy shit at festivals. We seen a guy sneaking into a tent where a girl was passed out. We stopped him before anything happened but it's frightening to think how much it does happened unnoticed.

Some people are fucking creeps.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

This information came to light later, although it is still a bit unclear to me who has done the attacks specifically. I think the lack of clarity in these cases are also a problem, since it contributes to the environment of distrust of police, politics and immigrants that is going on lately. I addressed this earlier and said there should be clear communications about this. The earlier linked article from The Guardian only talks about 2 refugees, but not who the other perpetrators are.

I am not linking anything, the discussion went this way and I contributed to it. Yes, my posts have not been limited to these specific attacks, but there is little discussion to be had about those aside from saying "well, that's terrible". To have a discussion about it, you need to look at the larger picture instead of a single incident.

I don't know why this is "shameful" next to the accusations of being "idiotic" and that I "suck" from you before.


The two bolded sentences conflict. If the report does not mention their background, how can you come to the conclusion that the situation has changed since the 2005 report, which did include that and found an over representation from people born to two foreign parents?

And again, I am just saying that because we see more of this behavior from some groups, that should get extra attention to fix it. Why is that a problem to say? If there is a larger problem within a certain community, you look at how you can help to fix that for the benefit of everyone involved.

That information was given by me on the second page.
It was after that you shifted to 2nd generations and started to link what happened in the OP with them.

You still claim the larger picture but nothing you have written supports your statements.
Not even the BRÅ raport of 2005 since supports your claim cause they talk about discrimination in the cases against POC.

"Forskning kring diskriminering inom rättsväsendet visar tydligt att invandrare särbehandlas i alla steg i rättsprocessen. De anmäls oftare, de grips i större utsträckning, de utreds mycket mer noggrant, de misstänks oftare och de lagförs oftare"

I'll be a pal and translate that part for you (since you didn't respond to it in your last post).

"Research on discrimination in the judicial system clearly shows that immigrants are discriminated against in all stages of the legal process. They reported more often , they are arrested to a greater extent , they investigated much more thoroughly , they suspected more often and they are pursued more often"


So again you only read the part about people POC being over represented but didn't bother reading the why.

No you keep banging on about how it is a cultural thing, to which i answer that is is more socioeconomically causes.
Cause if it was indeed cultural then it would occur in all walks of life regardless on money?
But if you look at Iraq immigrants in Australian only one in 9000 people of Iraqie decent are doing time for rape as opposed to the one in every 4500 Australians who are doing time.

This has probably to do with the fact that the people coming to the EU from these countries are poorer then the people who can get into Australia.
So please explain how this is a cultural problem and not a problem of misogyny and socioeconomically?

I would argue the patriarchal thinking and misogyny are more prevalent in ALLL who are expose to bad socioeconomically living. NOT JUST IMMIGRANTS.
That is why I have a problem with agreeing with your "picture that is wide" yet not wide enough to encompass others groups who face the same problems.

As for the bolded part you again failed to take the quote into consideration from BRÅ regarding discrimination in the justice system.

 

[ClosingADoor]

That information was given by me on the second page.
It was after that you shifted to 2nd generations and started to link what happened in the OP with them.

You still claim the larger picture but nothing you have written supports your statements.
Not even the BRÅ raport of 2005 since supports your claim cause they talk about discrimination in the cases against POC.

"Forskning kring diskriminering inom rättsväsendet visar tydligt att invandrare särbehandlas i alla steg i rättsprocessen. De anmäls oftare, de grips i större utsträckning, de utreds mycket mer noggrant, de misstänks oftare och de lagförs oftare"

I'll be a pal and translate that part for you (since you didn't respond to it in your last post).

"Research on discrimination in the judicial system clearly shows that immigrants are discriminated against in all stages of the legal process. They reported more often , they are arrested to a greater extent , they investigated much more thoroughly , they suspected more often and they are pursued more often"


So again you only read the part about people POC being over represented but didn't bother reading the why.

No you keep banging on about how it is a cultural thing, to which i answer that is is more socioeconomically causes.
Cause if it was indeed cultural then it would occur in all walks of life regardless on money?
But if you look at Iraq immigrants in Australian only one in 9000 people of Iraqie decent are doing time for rape as opposed to the one in every 4500 Australians who are doing time.

This has probably to do with the fact that the people coming to the EU from these countries are poorer then the people who can get into Australia.
So please explain how this is a cultural problem and not a problem of misogyny and socioeconomically?

I would argue the patriarchal thinking and misogyny are more prevalent in ALLL who are expose to bad socioeconomically living. NOT JUST IMMIGRANTS.
That is why I have a problem with agreeing with your "picture that is wide" yet not wide enough to encompass others groups who face the same problems.

As for the bolded part you again failed to take the quote into consideration from BRÅ regarding discrimination in the justice system.

I will not disagree that there is discrimination in the justice system. But to put all the differences in the crime stats on that is not a reflection of reality I think.

I did not put everything on cultural issues and have never said that only people in these groups are guilty of that behavior. But it stands to reason that if one is brought up in an environment that has problematic views towards women - and we can agree that Middle-eastern countries have that, don't we? -, that has a higher chance to reflect in the behavior of that person. That combination of both cultural influence and low income is a bad one that will lead to bigger problems, so you have to combat both.

And if you agree that poorer people are coming to Europe who hold these views, and they will display that behavior more, how is it in any way unreasonable to try and combat that specific problem with a targeted approach to reach the most effective solutions? I am simply baffled that you rather look away and say "everyone does it" than address the problems.

If you have more recent stats, please show them, because I'd actually be happy to be proven wrong, but so far the evidence has not been convincing to me.

 

[moniker]

First!
Still NOTHING except 2 out of 7 in Karlstad are proven to be of foreign decent.

Well, except the cop on Twitter. Who also directed direct tweets to Dan Eliasson (the Swedish National Police Commissioner). That's pretty bold if he for some reason was lying. And when editorial writers like Alice Teodorescu are writing about it in news papers, you would think that the police would be pretty quick to deny it if it wasn't true.

Third BRÅ stated in regards to the 2005 statistics that:
"– Forskning kring diskriminering inom rättsväsendet visar tydligt att invandrare särbehandlas i alla steg i rättsprocessen. De anmäls oftare, de grips i större utsträckning, de utreds mycket mer noggrant, de misstänks oftare och de lagförs oftare, säger Klara Hradilova Selin."

Whilst this is true (according to BRÅ:s discrimination report) and awful, I don't think it's adequate to explain the 5:1 overrepresentation. Especially when the variance between different countries of origin is so extreme (23:1 to in some cases, BRÅ 1996:2, page 107). The discrimination report also states the following (page 35):

The general view has been that courts treat defendants with Swedish and foreign background quite similar in relation to the guilt assessment.

...

However, there is greater scope for discrimination in Court's determination of the penalty compared to guilt assessment question (eg Diesen, 2005).

Which basically says that the discrimination has a bigger impact on the penalty rather than if someone is found guilty or not.

It also states this (page 23):

In their study was the Kardell (2005) and Pettersson (2005b) showed that criminal investigations against people from the Middle East, North Africa and Africa south of Sahara was dropped more often than investigations against people with Swedish or Northern and Western European background. It could be interpreted as support for the idea that people coming from these areas are suspects more often than others when a crime is committed, and that the suspicions therefore are increasingly apparent to be be unfounded. That these investigations are dropped could then mean that discrimination in the first stage of the process is partially corrected when prosecution decisions are be made (Sarnecki, 2005).

No you keep banging on about how it is a cultural thing, to which i answer that is is more socioeconomically causes.
Cause if it was indeed cultural then it would occur in all walks of life regardless on money?
But if you look at Iraq immigrants in Australian only one in 9000 people of Iraqie decent are doing time for rape as opposed to the one in every 4500 Australians who are doing time.

The 2005 BRÅ report states this when adjusting for socio economic factors (regarding all crime), page 74:

Once the material has been standardised in this way, the level of relative risk among those born abroad is reduced from 2.5 to 2.1.

Another thing of note that two thirds of all suspects in Köln is from the same countries which has the most extreme overrepresentation in BRÅ 1996:2. These are also countries that have the some of the worst treatment of women in the world. It'd be more than a little naive to think some of these men (those who have a shitty view of women) would suddenly change opinion when crossing the border to Sweden.

Here's a relevant article in DN from when the 2005 report was published.

Also, by relativising and saying there's no cultural differences that influences men's view of women you're basically saying that 100 years of feminist progress in Sweden hasn't made a difference.

With that said, of course it's wrong to vilify specific groups since there's only a very small percentage that commits crimes. That however doesn't change the fact that they're overrepresented.

 

[dave is ok]

Not true. There have been many cases involving children in their early teens or younger committing acts of sexual assault and rape.

In America, we say 'minors' or 'teens' or something.

Children is a very odd term to use.

 

[professor_t]

Music festivals in the US aren't much better or at least have serious issues with this kind of stuff.

Oh, well, I guess this is okay then. Everybody, just move along. There's nothing to see here.

But, seriously, what is your point?

 

[His Majesty]

The organizers of the Gothenburg Culture Festival have come up with a great solution by considering the implementation of no-men zones.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nojesbladet/musik/rockbjornen/article23132537.ab

Good job, Sweden.

Spoiler

not really

 

[Erevador]

In America, we say 'minors' or 'teens' or something.

Children is a very odd term to use.

It is well known that a large number of the people seeking asylum as children are not in fact underage. Often they are young men who are pretending to be children to have an easier time getting in and receiving services.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-sweden-idUSKCN0VC1G9

 

[54-46!]

The organizers of the Gothenburg Culture Festival have come up with a great solution by considering the implementation of no-men zones.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nojesbladet/musik/rockbjornen/article23132537.ab

Good job, Sweden.

Yup, let's change the way women have to behave instead of the perpetrators, maybe they should stop wearing short skirts as well.

 

[moniker]

The organizers of the Gothenburg Culture Festival have come up with a great solution by considering the implementation of no-men zones.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nojesbladet/musik/rockbjornen/article23132537.ab

Good job, Sweden.

Several baths have also introduced separate hours for women.

 

[paperboywriter]

haven't followed this closely, have there been any arrest and if so, who got arrested? has there been any evidence this was connected to immigration?

 

[zoukka]

The organizers of the Gothenburg Culture Festival have come up with a great solution by considering the implementation of no-men zones.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nojesbladet/musik/rockbjornen/article23132537.ab

Good job, Sweden.

Not saying this is the great solution, but if you want to have a 100% sex crime free environment, eliminating men is a necessary step.

 

[ClosingADoor]

The organizers of the Gothenburg Culture Festival have come up with a great solution by considering the implementation of no-men zones.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nojesbladet/musik/rockbjornen/article23132537.ab

Good job, Sweden.

Several baths have also introduced separate hours for women.

Wow... How can anybody seriously see those things as good solutions to this. And how is this not seen as victim blaming. "Please women, go towards your own separate area if you don't want to be assaulted."

 

[zoukka]

Wow... How can anybody seriously see those things as good solutions to this. And how is this not seen as victim blaming. "Please women, go towards your own separate area if you don't want to be assaulted."

It's a sad solution, but for now (and probably for an eternity) it's the only 100% foolproof way to offer a safe-zone for those that want one. I mean we probably can never eliminate the risk of getting assaulted during these events.

 

[Zaph]

Wow... How can anybody seriously see those things as good solutions to this. And how is this not seen as victim blaming. "Please women, go towards your own separate area if you don't want to be assaulted."

It's not ideal, and it is a damning indictment of the current sorry state of affairs, but it isn't victim blaming.

I've talked to organisers who've used similar areas at festivals, and it does indeed help. It's not unusual for potential rapists to harass their victim before assaulting them. Starts off harmless enough - try chatting to them, offer a drink, dance etc - but they don't take the hint and eventually become nasty. Having an area where a woman can go without being followed to just lose the guy's interest (and report him to organisers) is a must.

Another use is for women who suspect they've have had their drink spiked (sometimes younger attendees think they've been drugged, but they just didn't know their limits and drank too much) and can go sit down somewhere safe.

Again, not ideal, but all festivals should use them and have staff dedicated to spotting women being prevented from accessing the area.

 

[Bonfires Down]

Wow... How can anybody seriously see those things as good solutions to this. And how is this not seen as victim blaming. "Please women, go towards your own separate area if you don't want to be assaulted."

We could make all women wear burkas, that should reduce assaults significantly.

 

[Shrike_Priest]

To put things in perspective, here's a chart of the percentage of the Swedish population (both male and female) subjected to crimes of a sexual nature:

So we see a drastic increase from 0.9% in 2005 to 1.0% in 2014, with fluctuations in between.

This is what immigration does to a country.

 

[Good Job Bob]

Wow... How can anybody seriously see those things as good solutions to this. And how is this not seen as victim blaming. "Please women, go towards your own separate area if you don't want to be assaulted."

This isn't a politician proposing a long-term solution to these types of incidents, it's an event organizer ensuring that the women who attend their show have dedicated areas they can go to where they can feel safe if they are otherwise feeling insecure. I don't really see the issue. It's very unfortunate that it has to come to that and these issues need to be seriously addressed. But event organizers job is first and foremost to ensure the safety and comfort of their attendees and they don't have many great options.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Well, except the cop on Twitter. Who also directed direct tweets to Dan Eliasson (the Swedish National Police Commissioner). That's pretty bold if he for some reason was lying. And when editorial writers like Alice Teodorescu are writing about it in news papers, you would think that the police would be pretty quick to deny it if it wasn't true.



Whilst this is true (according to BRÅ:s discrimination report) and awful, I don't think it's adequate to explain the 5:1 overrepresentation. Especially when the variance between different countries of origin is so extreme (23:1 to in some cases, BRÅ 1996:2, page 107). The discrimination report also states the following (page 35):



Which basically says that the discrimination has a bigger impact on the penalty rather than if someone is found guilty or not.

It also states this (page 23):







The 2005 BRÅ report states this when adjusting for socio economic factors (regarding all crime), page 74:



Another thing of note that two thirds of all suspects in Köln is from the same countries which has the most extreme overrepresentation in BRÅ 1996:2. These are also countries that have the some of the worst treatment of women in the world. It'd be more than a little naive to think some of these men (those who have a shitty view of women) would suddenly change opinion when crossing the border to Sweden.

Here's a relevant article in DN from when the 2005 report was published.

Also, by relativising and saying there's no cultural differences that influences men's view of women you're basically saying that 100 years of feminist progress in Sweden hasn't made a difference.

With that said, of course it's wrong to vilify specific groups since there's only a very small percentage that commits crimes. That however doesn't change the fact that they're overrepresented.

That twitter cop wasn't at the scene but heard from people on the site (no names and none wanting to stand for it).
So really not that much to go on.

Also GP has turned into a wright wing ragg under Alice, that this is blogg and not a news paper.
So atm the police have said that it is 2 out of seven. If someone challanges that publicly then they that the number was higher I will agree that it is so.
But UNTIL the police say it I wouldn't trust a polices word (since you know EVEN BRÅ SAY POC ARE DISCRIMINATED BY THE POLICE).


Second what stats are you referring to now? Cause in the 2005 report 2nd generation number were 1.5. NOT 5.1.
Unless you are again talking about people who aren't citizens in which case one could argue that we don't know the nationalities and thus should't point fingers.


Also speaking of page 23 it is evident you haven't read it!
It talks about how the majority population are more inclined to report and how Swedish police are more likely to press charges!
Are you just just Control-F after words and then not reading the whole section?



What are you talking about page 74? It says that first but late goes in to say
"We know from previous research that certain background factors, such as
age and gender, covary with the risk for involvement in crime. Against this
background, the National Council has subjected the material to a standardisation
procedure in relation to gender, age, level of education and
occupational income. This standardisation means that the different groups
have been ”equalised” in relation to these factors by means of statistical
procedures. On the basis of these statistical calculations, all groups are assigned
the same proportions of men, younger persons etc. Once the material
has been standardised in this way, the level of relative risk among those
born abroad is reduced from 2.5 to 2.1. The size of the relative risk among
those born in Sweden to two foreign-born parents also diminishes substantially
from 2.0 to 1.5. One reason for this is that these groups contain a
larger proportion of young men with low levels of educational attainment
and income by comparison with those born in Sweden to two Swedish born
parents. "

Let me repeat that last bit for you.
"One reason for this is that these groups contain a
larger proportion of young men with low levels of educational attainment
and income by comparison with those born in Sweden to two Swedish born
parents. "

Do you see that?
All your crap about it's the culture doesn't hold up in regard to my example with Iraq people who immigrated to Australia. It shows CLEARLY they socioeconomic issues way more then cultural.

Also regarding the 100 years of feminism is true and great.
But we were able to build said feminism through the help of socialism and folk hemmet "the peoples home".
People had forward mobility and could get into the middle class.
POC of colour have face structural racism and have a hard time finding jobs and places to live.
Sweden today isn't quite like that.

Again we are back to square one.
I don't agree that the misogyny is exclusive to immigrants but it is overrepresented in poorer people, the overrepresentation is due to socioeconomic issues and discrimination.
And not only immigrants are poor. Hence we should help all who struggle.
Now if you suggestions are education and real prospects for the future, then I'm there.
If your suggestions are about supporting local activism groups (in whatever context) then I'm with you.
Building up said areas with out gentrifying them. Bring back the police and the post and health services.
And if you wonder why we should do that (money) you can look at Sweden and what we accomplished after WW2.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I will not disagree that there is discrimination in the justice system. But to put all the differences in the crime stats on that is not a reflection of reality I think.

I did not put everything on cultural issues and have never said that only people in these groups are guilty of that behavior. But it stands to reason that if one is brought up in an environment that has problematic views towards women - and we can agree that Middle-eastern countries have that, don't we? -, that has a higher chance to reflect in the behavior of that person. That combination of both cultural influence and low income is a bad one that will lead to bigger problems, so you have to combat both.

And if you agree that poorer people are coming to Europe who hold these views, and they will display that behavior more, how is it in any way unreasonable to try and combat that specific problem with a targeted approach to reach the most effective solutions? I am simply baffled that you rather look away and say "everyone does it" than address the problems.

If you have more recent stats, please show them, because I'd actually be happy to be proven wrong, but so far the evidence has not been convincing to me.

The thing is tho, I don't think you have a leg to stand on regarding what you are saying.
Now if there is a report regarding this that states that socioeconomic and discrimination reasons are not enough to make up the difference I will agree with you but since there isn't i'll take BRÅs report that states that socioeconomic and discrimination and a larger male population in said group do play a part.

If you made the case the misogyny are more common in socioeconomically exposed then you wouldn't hear much of an argument from me at least.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Has anyone done any serious research on who these people are and why they think sexual assault is acceptable? Seems like it should be done considering it is such a large reoccurring problem.

 

[ClosingADoor]

The thing is tho, I don't think you have a leg to stand on regarding what you are saying.
Now if there is a report regarding this that states that socioeconomic and discrimination reasons are not enough to make up the difference I will agree with you but since there isn't i'll take BRÅs report that states that socioeconomic and discrimination and a larger male population in said group do play a part.

If you made the case the misogyny are more common in socioeconomically exposed then you wouldn't hear much of an argument from me at least.

What you are basically arguing here is that the culture and environment you have been brought up in have no influence on a persons views or behavior in life. Do I get this right?

 

[More Fun To Compute]

What you are basically arguing here is that the culture and environment you have been brought up in have no influence on a persons views or behavior in life. Do I get this right?

I hope so because that removes all ethical restraints from my plan to make all religion and superstition illegal.

 

[Lime]

Has anyone done any serious research on who these people are and why they think sexual assault is acceptable? Seems like it should be done considering it is such a large reoccurring problem.

Yes. If you can read Danish: http://kvinfo.dk/webmagasinet/diskussionen-efter-koeln

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Yes. If you can read Danish: http://kvinfo.dk/webmagasinet/diskussionen-efter-koeln

That appears to be a more general views on gang rape than specific details on the backgrounds of people involved in this unusually high profile problem in Sweden and what could be done to address it.

 

[Lime]

That appears to be a more general views on gang rape than specific details on the backgrounds of people involved in this unusually high profile problem in Sweden and what could be done to address it.

The research done by Sune Qvotrup Jensen is exactly what you are looking for in terms of the fundamental understanding of the phenomenon, at least in a Scandinavian context

 

[Tyaren]

Wow... How can anybody seriously see those things as good solutions to this. And how is this not seen as victim blaming. "Please women, go towards your own separate area if you don't want to be assaulted."

The same happened after the Cologne sex attacks.The authorities were quick to tell women how to best behave from now on to avoid being attacked.
It's sad...we are already socially regressing...

 

[Darth Ghandi]

What you are basically arguing here is that the culture and environment you have been brought up in have no influence on a persons views or behavior in life. Do I get this right?

And there you area again moving those goal posts. Just in the previous post you said " I did not put everything on cultural issues".
So what is it? Cultural or not? Environmental or not?

The same happened after the Cologne sex attacks.The authorities were quick to tell women how to best behave from now on to avoid being attacked.
It's sad...we are already socially regressing...

From what I've seen and heard this has been a problem for a long time and has been needed or years.

 

[ClosingADoor]

And there you area again moving those goal posts. Just in the previous post you said " I did not put everything on cultural issues".
So what is it? Cultural or not? Environmental or not?

Time and time again you are ignoring my questions. You are putting it all on socioeconomic status and discrimination by police. I ask you a question in relation to that, yet you refuse to answer.

I think cultural influences are more important to this, because if you are raised in an environment unfriendly to women - which we agree that the Middle-east is when talking about immigrants from those areas - then that has a higher chance to reflect in your behavior. Do you agree with that? If not, how so?

 

[Spiral Insanity]

What you are basically arguing here is that the culture and environment you have been brought up in have no influence on a persons views or behavior in life. Do I get this right?

If this discussion was about black people instead of muslims, you would get LYNCHED. Humanity is doomed. Holy shit. Just be honest already and come out with it. And yes, stop moving the goalposts.
You are essentially saying that muslim immigrants are predisposed to rape and assault. Fuck.

 

[ClosingADoor]

If this discussion was about black people instead of muslims, you would get LYNCHED. Humanity is doomed. Holy shit. Just be honest already and come out with it. And yes, stop moving the goalposts.
You are essentially saying that muslim immigrants are predisposed to rape and assault. Fuck.

Why exactly? Are we going to pretend that the Middle-east (and other areas of the world, but we are mostly talking about immigration from this region when it comes to these discussions) have a good track record when it comes to women's right and such, and that has no influence on the people who are growing up in those areas?

I am talking about making positive chance. I am saying that when a group has larger problems in a certain area, a targeted approach towards improving that would be beneficial for all involved. We are talking cultural and environmental influence here, not race. I absolutely do not have the view that your race has influence on these things. But the environment you are brought up and live in do. That is not really a controversial statement in any way.

You are reading things in my words that are not there. I don't even think I have mentioned the world Muslim or talked about Islam.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Why exactly? Are we going to pretend that the Middle-east (and other areas of the world, but we are mostly talking about immigration from this region when it comes to these discussions) have a good track record when it comes to women's right and such, and that has no influence on the people who are growing up in those areas?

I am talking about making positive chance. I am saying that when a group has larger problems in a certain area, a targeted approach towards improving that would be beneficial for all involved. We are talking cultural and environmental influence here, not race.

Why the fuck do you think these people are fleeing? They are not on holiday. Oh, and their religion does NOT teach them to rape women. Why don't you inquire with the Muslim GAF community to learn more?

You talk as if you've never seen/spoken to/listened to an immigrant/muslim. As if your only point of reference is Donald Trump and Bill Maher.

I don't even know why you are saying this, there are NO reliable reports of rape/attacks/crime volumes going up significantly due to immigration. These people are not programmed to be evil.

The excuse of 'it is their culture, their upbringing!... it isn't about race!' is fucking disgusting.

 

[strafer]

So a woman was apparently raped at the peace and love festival.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Why the fuck do you think these people are fleeing? They are not on holiday. Oh, and their religion does NOT teach them to rape women. Why don't you inquire with the Muslim GAF community to learn more?

You talk as if you've never seen/spoken to/listened to an immigrant/muslim. As if your only point of reference is Donald Trump and Bill Maher.

I don't even know why you are saying this, there are NO reliable reports of rape/attacks/crime volumes going up significantly due to immigration. These people are not programmed to be evil.

The excuse of 'it is their culture, their upbringing!... it isn't about race!' is fucking disgusting.

Again, you are reading things in my words that are not there. This thread is not talking about the reasons why refugees are coming towards Europe, so talking about me moving goalposts is a bit funny when you are doing exactly that here.

What a religion teaches and how people act are two separate things. Christianity is supposed to teach compassion, yet not every Christian follows that.

And again, I have not linked this to the refugee crisis. I have provided stats that these groups are over represented when it comes to crime and sexual assault, and handling that should be a good thing for everyone. Why is it wrong to talk about that? Why am I being called a racist, idiotic, that I suck, and now disgusting for something that statistics have shown is there?

I am not advocating anything like Trump, Wilders, or whatever far right lunatic you want to point at does. Please point me to the post where I do that, because then you certainly have misinterpreted my words.

 

[Spiral Insanity]

Again, you are reading things in my words that are not there. This thread is not talking about the reasons why refugees are coming towards Europe, so talking about me moving goalposts is a bit funny when you are doing exactly that here.

What a religion teaches and how people act are two separate things. Christianity is supposed to teach compassion, yet not every Christian follows that.

And again, I have not linked this to the refugee crisis. I have provided stats that these groups are over represented when it comes to crime and sexual assault, and handling that should be a good thing for everyone. Why is it wrong to talk about that?

This isn't about religion. This is about people, humans, lives. Fathers, Moms, Daughters, Sons. You see them as stats, problems, dangers. No matter how careful you word it or how many small print you add to your theories, that is dangerous thinking.

I could pull a million stats out of my ass about hate crimes perpetrated by Christians or Christian faith leaders. But to judge a large group of people of that based on these stats?

 

[Sarek]

It's a sad solution, but for now (and probably for an eternity) it's the only 100% foolproof way to offer a safe-zone for those that want one. I mean we probably can never eliminate the risk of getting assaulted during these events.

You could justify almost anything with that logic.

 

[ClosingADoor]

This isn't about religion. This is about people, humans, lives. Fathers, Moms, Daughters, Sons. You see them as stats, problems, dangers. No matter how careful you word it or how many small print you add to your theories, that is dangerous thinking.

I could pull a million stats out of my ass about hate crimes perpetrated by Christians or Christian faith leaders. But to judge a large group of people of that based on these stats?

Where am I mentioning race or religion in this discussion and where am I putting these things on that? I am not. You are jumping at me for things I have not said and are linking me to far right names that I have not - and will never - support.

I am not judging a larger group of people. I am saying: this is a larger problem within that community as compared to others as shown by the statistics, put the most effort in it to fix it. Am I saying anything wrong here?

 

[Agremont]

The fact that culture influences people really shouldn't be controversial. The super defensiveness when it's brought up is one of the many obstacles we need to overcome to make things work.

 

[A.edrerai]

The fact that culture influences people really shouldn't be controversial. The super defensiveness when it's brought up is one of the many obstacles we need to overcome to make things work.

Of course it influences but there is not a singel cultur at least from what i know which encourages rape in any form .

 

[Agremont]

Of course it influences but there is not a singel cultur at least from what i know which encourages rape in any form .

Of course. But it doesn't have to explicitly encourage it for the risk to be increased. An unequal view of men and women can be enough.

It is clear that there's a clash of values happening in Sweden right now. When it comes to view of women and equality, not to mention HBTQ rights. It needs to be taken seriously.

 

[DrFurbs]

The problem isn't men. The problem is middle eastern men in Sweden why don't hold the same female values as Swedes or other Europeans.

Go watch the news on YouTube in Sweden from various outlets. Many females are terrified of going out at night because of immigrant gangs. In fact recently Sweden cancelled earth day which is an event to turn off all lighting in the cities etc. It was cancelled as a result of increased crime and sexual assaults.

What's worse, many of them (immigrants) say they are under 15 years of age(when they blatantly are not) and the police can't arrest them.

 

[A.edrerai]

Of course. But it doesn't have to explicitly encourage it for the risk to be increased. An unequal view of men and women can be enough.

It is clear that there's a clash of values happening in Sweden right now. When it comes to view of women and equality, not to mention HBTQ rights. It needs to be taken seriously.

I'm with you at what you are saying and i'm seeing it as a global phenomen . In my opinion it has to do more with the amorality than the singel ideologies or cultures .
The degratation of Education has managed in my opinion to make our societies more amoral and apathetic toward some problems and rape is one of them . I would like from us to stop stigmatiesing the women because the biggest problem i'm seeing is low percentage of raporting even in Germany .

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Time and time again you are ignoring my questions. You are putting it all on socioeconomic status and discrimination by police. I ask you a question in relation to that, yet you refuse to answer.

I think cultural influences are more important to this, because if you are raised in an environment unfriendly to women - which we agree that the Middle-east is when talking about immigrants from those areas - then that has a higher chance to reflect in your behavior. Do you agree with that? If not, how so?

Yeah buddy, just keep moving them goalposts!
As other posters have noticed you are just digging yourself deeper into something you can't win and you true colors are starting to show.

I have agreed that patriarchal ways of thinking are often more widespread among poor people of all cultures
I don't fully agree that culture is enough to point out one group of people.
There is my answer.

The fact that culture influences people really shouldn't be controversial. The super defensiveness when it's brought up is one of the many obstacles we need to overcome to make things work.

The thing is tho man that it isn't confined to one culture. We must talk about sexual assault in ALL cultures.
If we focus on one select group we ignore the vast majority assaults that don't fit the profile.
We should educate all men.
This may be a bit OT but i think still relevant to the topic.

I saw and excellent speech about this that talks about the role of men in patriarchy, and why we must step up and do the right thing.
http://urplay.se/program/193531-ur-samtiden-mans-vald-hur-kan-vi-minska-det-det-ar-en-mansfraga

 

[Lamel]

Why exactly? Are we going to pretend that the Middle-east (and other areas of the world, but we are mostly talking about immigration from this region when it comes to these discussions) have a good track record when it comes to women's right and such, and that has no influence on the people who are growing up in those areas?

I am talking about making positive chance. I am saying that when a group has larger problems in a certain area, a targeted approach towards improving that would be beneficial for all involved. We are talking cultural and environmental influence here, not race. I absolutely do not have the view that your race has influence on these things. But the environment you are brought up and live in do. That is not really a controversial statement in any way.

You are reading things in my words that are not there. I don't even think I have mentioned the world Muslim or talked about Islam.

Middle east has a problematic record with women's rights yes, but if you are going to talk "culture" then I don't see how that supports what you are asserting. Middle east culture/religion generally promotes men to stay away from women that aren't family, and to be more respectful in that sense. So sexual assault doesn't really jive with that; it still does occur regardless, obviously. Now I'm not saying there isn't spillover between less legal rights and worse treatment in general for women, but it is more nuanced than you are making it out to be.

Furthermore, there isn't necessarily one singular culture regarding treatment and interactions with women across muslim countries.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yeah buddy, just keep moving them goalposts!
As other posters have noticed you are just digging yourself deeper into something you can't win and you true colors are starting to show.

I have agreed that patriarchal ways of thinking are often more widespread among poor people of all cultures
I don't fully agree that culture is enough to point out one group of people.
There is my answer.

Why is your answer to all of my questions "moving goalposts"? And what are supposed to be my "true colors"? Why am I being painted here as a racist and called names for showing statistics and calling out a problem that needs fixing?

The thing is tho man that it isn't confined to one culture. We must talk about sexual assault in ALL cultures.
If we focus on one select group we ignore the vast majority assaults that don't fit the profile.
We should educate all men.
This may be a bit OT but i think still relevant to the topic.

I saw and excellent speech about this that talks about the role of men in patriarchy, and why we must step up and do the right thing.
http://urplay.se/program/193531-ur-samtiden-mans-vald-hur-kan-vi-minska-det-det-ar-en-mansfraga

The point is not to ignore all other sexual assault. The point is to address the higher level of sexual assaults where it takes place and fix that. If a problem is larger somewhere, you put extra effort in it. How can you disagree with that?

 

[Agremont]

The thing is tho man that it isn't confined to one culture. We must talk about sexual assault in ALL cultures.
If we focus on one select group we ignore the vast majority assaults that don't fit the profile.
We should educate all men.
This may be a bit OT but i think still relevant to the topic.

I saw and excellent speech about this that talks about the role of men in patriarchy, and why we must step up and do the right thing.
http://urplay.se/program/193531-ur-samtiden-mans-vald-hur-kan-vi-minska-det-det-ar-en-mansfraga

I never said it's confined to one culture. And of course no culture is perfect but let's not pretend cultures don't vary wildly on this subject.

Sexual crimes need to be combated wherever they happen, and we should not act as if european men are angels. But I don't think it'll do us any good to ignore the differences in attitudes in various groups. It's an obstacle for integration.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Why is your answer to all of my questions "moving goalposts"? And what are supposed to be my "true colors"? Why am I being painted here as a racist and called names for showing statistics and calling out a problem that needs fixing?


The point is not to ignore all other sexual assault. The point is to address the higher level of sexual assaults where it takes place and fix that. If a problem is larger somewhere, you put extra effort in it. How can you disagree with that?

The thing is tho you always mention the overrepresentation with out talking about how they are discriminated against IN EVERY SINGLE STEP.
I have informed you several times but you still don't take that into account?
I'll repeat again so you lies don't mean shit.
"Research on discrimination in the judicial system clearly shows that immigrants are discriminated against in all stages of the legal process. They reported more often , they are arrested to a greater extent , they investigated much more thoroughly , they suspected more often and they are pursued more often"

And yes you should be ashamed cause of your cherrypicking stats and not reading the whole damn reports.
You are still pointing towards one small group that is part of a small piece of a problem regarding mens violence towards women.

 

[A.edrerai]

I think focusing on one sex without trying to make some changes on the other sex is not going to work because we have a closed system in which both sides interact .
Tying to change only one side bring disbalance one social norms and that is not a stable
solution .