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[THE:MILKMAN]

Anything interesting?

Talk of 'display buffer resolution' strategies e.g. 'checkerboard rendering'. Confirmation that the dev kit proto 2 and test kit proto 1 (not available to SCEE) are "final spec" and are the kits I linked to at the MIC site I posted here the past week.

Other stuff about the roadmap like TRC's and SDKs updates etc. Don't want to post too much without mod say so....

 

[RoboPlato]

Yeah.

The pdf discusses a lot of scenarios that I have in mind about how both the Neo and Scorpio might handle 1080p, 4k, and any resolution in between. Like they suggest you can have 2 framebuffer; one for 1080p, and another for above 1080p upto 4k. Presumably you can have a situation whereby once a 1080p display is detected it renders the game in 1080p framebuffer with added effects and or higher framerates, while if a 4k display is detected, it renders at a higher res up to 4k, presumable with or without added effects and or better framerates, depending on what the developer feels can work.

They also talk about allowing downscaling for when a game renders at a higher than 1080p res and downsample to 1080p display. This will obviously give a boost to image quality.

It is not compulsory to ship with 2 framebuffers. They are still discussing and they suggest targeting different resolutions if you can't hit 4k native.

Talk of 'display buffer resolution' strategies e.g. 'checkerboard rendering'. Confirmation that the dev kit proto 2 and test kit proto 1 (not available to SCEE) are "final spec" and are the kits I linked to at the MIC site I posted here the past week.

Other stuff about the roadmap like TRC's and SDKs updates etc. Don't want to post too much without mod say so....

Very interesting. I wonder if we'll be able to toggle the rendering resolution if we prefer 1080p with more effects/better framerates even on a 4k display. Still curious as to how this console will hit 4k at all in AAA titles.

 

[scently]

Very interesting. I wonder if we'll be able to toggle the rendering resolution if we prefer 1080p with more effects/better framerates even on a 4k display. Still curious as to how this console will hit 4k at all in AAA titles.

Well they talked about a "checkerboard" rendering technique. I believe this is what Rainbow Six used. They also talked about a "geometry rendering technique" which I believe is what sebbbi was referring to in that tweet about scorpio with Tiago Sousa.

 

[RoboPlato]

Well they talked about a "checkerboard" rendering technique. I believe this is what Rainbow Six used. They also talked about a "geometry rendering technique" which I believe is what sebbbi was referring to in that tweet about scorpio with Tiago Sousa.

Oh excellent. That's basically what I've been expecting this whole time.

 

[OdysseusVA]

this?
https://www.scribd.com/doc/312585554/PS4-5-NEO-pdf

 

[scently]

this?
https://www.scribd.com/doc/312585554/PS4-5-NEO-pdf

Yep.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I could have done that, OdysseusVA! I PM'd a mod over 2 hours ago but haven't had a reply as yet.

 

[jobboy]

is it confirmed for early 2017?

 

[Omnistalgic]

Dissapointing CPU upgrade...I was hoping for the Zen 5TF early 2017 rumor. This year seems like too much stuff is coming out with VR and a possible slim.

I hope things still change, but looking less and less likely.

 

[blastprocessor]

Very interesting about the resolutions in that slide pack

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

is it confirmed for early 2017?

There is no confirmed launch date. The docs read to me like the aim would be for a October/November launch, though IMO. The docs are from <March though I think?

 

[Proelite]

Here's my opinion of how Sony and MS first party will hit 4k.

Sony will probably push for reconstructive rendering. On PS4 use a 960 x 1080p framebuffer to reconstruct a 1080p image. On Neo, use a 1080p framebuffer to reconstruct a 4k image.

Microsoft seems enamored with dynamic resolution, and for a good reason. It's probably the more scaleable of the two, despite the visual output not being as consistent. You can ship it on a variety of devices with minimal tweaking.

I can see a game being dynamic 900p to 1080p on Xbox 1, and 1440p to 4k on Scorpio.

 

[RoboPlato]

Here's my opinion of how Sony and MS first party will hit 4k.

Sony will probably push for reconstructive rendering. On PS4 use a 960 x 1080p framebuffer to reconstruct a 1080p image. On Neo, use a 1080p framebuffer to reconstruct a 4k image.

Microsoft seems enamored with dynamic resolution, and for a good reason. It's probably the more scaleable of the two, despite the visual output not being as consistent. You can ship it on a variety of devices with minimal tweaking.

I can see a game being dynamic 900p to 1080p on Xbox 1, and 1440p to 4k on Scorpio.

This makes sense to me too.

 

[bidguy]

this?
https://www.scribd.com/doc/312585554/PS4-5-NEO-pdf

what makes people think its legit ?

 

[OdysseusVA]

I could have done that, OdysseusVA! I PM'd a mod over 2 hours ago but haven't had a reply as yet.

Its just a link, m8. A link to details that's mostly known.



If you were vouching for the info then I'd understand wanting to wait for a mod's approval.

 

[Jonboy]

There is no confirmed launch date. The docs read to me like the aim would be for a October/November launch, though IMO. The docs are from <March though I think?

The docs have to be pretty old. It still says "Sony Computer Entertainment America" rather than "Sony Interactive Entertainment."

They announced the change in late January and it went into effect April 1, 2016.

 

[thuway]

Somebody is about to get slammed. That thing has the serial number for the documentation. Yikes.

 

[RoboPlato]

I want more details on "checkboard rendering". Sony seems to be pushing it hard in these docs to the point of wanting any dev that can't hit 4k with it to contact them for help.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

Look at this little thread go.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Its just a link, m8. A link to details that's mostly known.



If you were vouching for the info then I'd understand wanting to wait for a mod's approval.

Sure, but I thought it the right thing to do as the PDF has "CONFIDENTIAL" written all over it.

 

[jett]

this?
https://www.scribd.com/doc/312585554/PS4-5-NEO-pdf

Aw shit the deadline is October not September. :| I was hoping FFXV would have Neo support for sure.

 

[Jonboy]

Shouldn't this be its own thread? The PDF leak?

 

[RoboPlato]

Aw shit the deadline is October not September. :| I was hoping FFXV would have Neo support for sure.

Late September requires a patch. Games have to ship with it in October.

 

[OdysseusVA]

Sure, but I thought it the right thing to do as the PDF has "CONFIDENTIAL" written all over it.

Public scribd
First result when searching "ps4 neo pdf"

You would have been okay

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Where's the 4D technology though? I want Kento be redeemed

 

[MORT1S]

Somewhat interestingly the document was created on 4/16/16.

Does this predate the initial big leaks?

 

[Jonboy]

Somewhat interestingly the document was created on 4/16/16.

Does this predate the initial big leaks?

Weird that it was created on 4/16/16 and didn't say "Sony Interactive Entertainment."

 

[MORT1S]

Weird that it was created on 4/16/16 and didn't say "Sony Interactive Entertainment."

Could be an old outdated powerpoint template. It was created in Powerpoint 2013.

 

[dogen]

I want more details on "checkboard rendering". Sony seems to be pushing it hard in these docs to the point of wanting any dev that can't hit 4k with it to contact them for help.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022990/Rendering-Rainbow-Six-Siege

 

[RoboPlato]

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022990/Rendering-Rainbow-Six-Siege

I am familiar with the Siege method, have posted about it a few times in the tech thread actually, but I just wanted to see if Sony's implementation was exactly the same.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Public scribd
First result when searching "ps4 neo pdf"

You would have been okay

Maybe I'm just odd but it isn't me I'm worried about. As Thuway pointed out (and I completely missed....) the doc has a serial number. I wish now I was more patient and waited for a reply from the mod I PM'd.

Weird that it was created on 4/16/16 and didn't say "Sony Interactive Entertainment."

Giant Bomb's dev docs article was on April 18th.

 

[MORT1S]

Giant Bomb's dev docs article was on April 18th.

Here is a screengrab of the document properties. Seems pretty legit - if not a really good fake

 

[Tarnpanzer]

Though work is just beginning in this area, some developers are reporting success in creating just a single resolution (e.g. 3520x1980) and scaling it down to 1920x1080 for output to HDTVs

Nice. Downsampling for 2K-TVs confirmed.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Shouldn't this be its own thread? The PDF leak?

No..info could be old by now

 

[jett]

Late September requires a patch. Games have to ship with it in October.

Oh you're right.

 

[OdysseusVA]

Maybe I'm just odd but it isn't me I'm worried about. As Thuway pointed out (and I completely missed....) the doc has a serial number. I wish now I was more patient and waited for a reply from the mod I PM'd.

Sure, that sucks but with it being on a public scribd it was only a matter of time before it made the rounds.

 

[RoboPlato]

Oh you're right.

Slide 28

"Late-September Titles

-PS4-only submission with NEO Day-1 patch

Early-October Titles
–NEO/PS4 submission only
–It is OK to release NEO-ready titles before NEO launches"

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Sure, that sucks but with it being on a public scribd it was only a matter of time before it made the rounds.

True, but I'll feel bad if this costs someone their job.

 

[vpance]

I don't feel too bad about 4.2TF Jag anymore. 60FPS minimums were never going to happen.

Pushing devs to use those new rendering techniques for higher res is smart, and will leave a lot of headroom for added effects.

 

[Jonboy]

No..info could be old by now

The doc itself is definitely old.

Sounds to me like this is probably what leaked initially a few months ago and was reported on by Kotaku and Giant Bomb.

If anything in there is new information, then I would expect Kotaku to have something up pretty soon.

 

[RoboPlato]

I made this post back in January in the big tech thread, months before these consoles were even rumored, so it's very cool to be reading about checkerboard rendering in these docs (didn't know the proper name at the time)

Something I've been wondering about for a while is the question of 4k potential in the next gen consoles. I'm of the mind that thinks that in order to hit a $399 price point, native 4k with an expected next gen leap in fidelity would be unlikely. However after getting Rainbow Six: Siege, I think it's MSAA reconstruction technique could be quite beneficial on consoles next gen. Being someone who is primarily a console gamer (can't run anything more complex than Source games on my laptop) I would love to see widespread use of these techniques next gen in order to prevent scaling artifacts so we don't have another gen like the last where everything has to be scaled in some way.

For those of you unaware on consoles Siege renders at a halved resolution in order to hit 60fps in the competitive mode and uses the data from a 2x MSAA sample to output at 1080p on PS4 and 900p on Xbox One. I do not have experience with the Xbox One version but on PS4 the final output is shockingly convincing, even in motion.

Example:

There is some artifacting but it's mostly only visible on high contrast edges and when there is a lot of motion. It's relatively minor and looks more reminiscent of aliasing than a more distracting aberration.

Example (around the gun):

Some of you may remember that Killzone: Shadow Fall's multiplayer mode attempting to do something similar. Guerrilla's technique used alternating lines from temporal sampling in order to reconstruct a 1080p image and I was personally not a fan of it. It didn't save enough performance in order to justify the overall loss in clarity and it was a less temporally stable image than what Siege is doing.

I'd love to get more information on methods like this and their practical application. Dictator93 pointed me to this piece by Matt Pettineo from Ready At Dawn. https://mynameismjp.wordpress.com/2015/09/13/programmable-sample-points/

If anyone has more insight into these or similar techniques I'd like to hear about it, examples would be excellent as well. Do you agree that it would be a useful pursuit for consoles in the next generation? I think it would be, especially with a much higher resolution for the original image.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Damn. When I found the scribd a few hours ago it had 57 views. Now on 2K.

 

[mattp]

Somebody is about to get slammed. That thing has the serial number for the documentation. Yikes.

yeah if this is legit someone is fucked

 

[scently]

I made this post back in January in the big tech thread, months before these consoles were even rumored, so it's very cool to be reading about checkerboard rendering in these docs (didn't know the proper name at the time)

Yeah. The first pic looks remarkably good. I am sure that more of these techniques will be explored with the advent of Neo and Scorpio.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

The hardware is not too bad providing it comes in at $399. I'm not convinced it's worth any more than that. Interesting to see how Sony prices it, and the old model.

 

[Blizzje]

This document was released after the one GB got their hands on. You can tell by the way Sony recaps information in this one and how devs have told then that they needed to lower the res from 4k to meet or exceed the base ps4 frame rate.

They could have only made that remark if the devs were already informed about the neo. Which happened prior to this doc.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Dissapointing CPU upgrade...I was hoping for the Zen 5TF early 2017 rumor. This year seems like too much stuff is coming out with VR and a possible slim.

I hope things still change, but looking less and less likely.

That wasn't going to happen. They have stated over and over that this is an optional step upgrade to PS4 that is chained to the PS4's development platform. Thus by default one would expect that the investment they would put into such an iterative unit would not be all that much compared to what they would consider a numbered unit.

If your not investing into creating better experiences and only better versions of what your already creating, the hardware requirements are much less.

 

[dead monkey uk]

The hardware is not too bad providing it comes in at $399. I'm not convinced it's worth any more than that. Interesting to see how Sony prices it, and the old model.

$399 with the PS4 dropping to $299 is my initial thought looking at the specs in this document. I guess the final price will come down to the rest of the spec, with a 4K blu-ray drive and 2TB hard drive I could see the price closer to $499.

 

[Omnistalgic]

That wasn't going to happen. They have stated over and over that this is an optional upgrade to PS4 that is chained to the PS4's development platform. Thus by default one would expect that the investment they would put into such an iterative unit would not be all that much compared to what they would consider a numbered unit.

based off what I was reading those specs didn't seem that much more up an upgrade and fit in with the premium marketing idea.

I just want more 60fps games that look like UC4 and GOW honestly. Specs mean very little to me. But it does seem kinda stupid to offer a more powerful box and not have it substantially more powerful.

 

[thelastword]

I'm really happy that there won't be super low resolutions scaled to 4k, 1440p to 4k is something Sony is against as that is closer to 1080p. I'm very happy with this, certain resolutions will scale well and remain sharp, if it's too low then it defeats the whole point.