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[kyser73]

I'm on #teamhurryupandtelluswtfishappeningSony

 

[Brutal Deluxe]

I'm on #teamhurryupandtelluswtfishappeningSony

My team too!

 

[Sidewinder]

My team too!

Same here, I need to know the details before I can get angry or start chilling

 

[Metfanant]

1080p on a 4K TV gets upscaled once by a dedicated hardware scaler built into 4K Tv's, many of which have good algorithms designed for 1080p as that is the main TV HD material input source. My Panny 4K tv looks fanstastic with 1080p material, better than my 1080p Sony W905.

Monitors are a different story....

That's not true at all...

 

[Gurish]

So if they won't upgrade the CPU significantly (which seems like the case here) than the upgrade won't be too noticeable right?

I think I'm fine with that, I'll stick to my PS4 until PS5.

 

[geordiemp]

That's not true at all...

It is my input source for console and TV in UK...... Got to admit < 1080p input does look awful when I tune into SD sources.

So if they won't upgrade the CPU significantly (which seems like the case here) than the upgrade won't be too noticeable right?

I think I'm fine with that, I'll stick to my PS4 until PS5.

I agree, if the CPU bump is weak and my games do not have the POTENTIAL to run better noticably, and they are already 1080p so better shadows and AA etc ALONE does not warrant an upgrade. Sony need to be showing some games at 60 FPS in Neo mode which would not be possible on Ps4 if they expect many enthusiasts to upgrade or not go down the low cost PC route (which is getting cheaper by the day).

 

[Metfanant]

It is my input source for console and TV in UK...... Got to admit < 1080p input does look awful when I tune into SD sources.

Here in the States anyway, the VAST majority of broadcast TV is 1080i...and sports centric channels (like ESPN) broadcast in 720p because the progressive format is better for motion...

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

So if they won't upgrade the CPU significantly (which seems like the case here) than the upgrade won't be too noticeable right?

I think I'm fine with that, I'll stick to my PS4 until PS5.

It's going to be noticeable, just not native 4k or true next-gen levels. It's also only going to be a visual difference, with no exclusive modes, so Neo games are just PS4 games with more eye candy.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Do we have some new juicy rumours or how is this thread kept alive, Hype?

 

[AndyD]

It's going to be noticeable, just not native 4k or true next-gen levels. It's also only going to be a visual difference, with no exclusive modes, so Neo games are just PS4 games with more eye candy.

If it means more games get closer to UC4/Witcher 3 levels I am perfectly fine with this mid-gen jump. 4K is a massive jump.

 

[Theonik]

It is my input source for console and TV in UK...... Got to admit < 1080p input does look awful when I tune into SD sources.

Broadcast is 1080i usually, not 1080p. It's also usually very low bitrate. The output path for broadcast is very much different than 1080p HDMI input.

 

[leeh]

Broadcast is 1080i usually, not 1080p. It's also usually very low bitrate.

It varies in the UK. I usually see more progressive than interlaced.

 

[backbreaker65]

Day 479 and still no substance. Just speculating from people who really don't know anything about Sony Manufacturing or Engineering Process. Digital Foundry don't know, Beyond 3D doesn't know all they do is speculate and offer conjecture.

I guess they can do this, but this chip can't do that, it's to late to change this, oh but don't bother doing that it will bottleneck, Are you an engineer that has done this type of work? No but I play one online. Oh yeah? Yeah, I'll read up on the subject, come back and regurgitate, rinse and repeat.


It's okay to say you don't know and take a wait and see approach. This thread is about 2 thousand and Sixty-four post to long.

 

[Theonik]

It varies in the UK. I usually see more progressive than interlaced.

I used to mostly see 1080i on freeview bearing in mind I don't watch that much live broadcast stuff anymore.

Day 479 and still no substance. Just speculating from people who really don't know anything about Sony Manufacturing or Engineering Process. Digital Foundry don't know, Beyond 3D doesn't know all they do is speculate and offer conjecture.

I guess they can do this, but this chip can't do that, it's to late to change this, oh but don't bother doing that it will bottleneck, Are you an engineer that has done this type of work? No but I play one online. Oh yeah? Yeah, I'll read up on the subject, come back and regurgitate, rinse and repeat.


It's okay to say you don't know and take a wait and see approach. This thread is about 2 thousand and Sixty-four post to long.

Believe it or not. Engineers do exist on the internet. Threads are for discussion and with no information people will make discussion based on speculation. Some speculation is more informed than other speculation.

 

[backbreaker65]

I used to mostly see 1080i on freeview bearing in mind I don't watch that much live broadcast stuff anymore.


Believe it or not. Engineers do exist on the internet. Threads are for discussion and with no information people will make discussion based on speculation. Some speculation is more informed than other speculation.

Again, none of them work for Sony so it doesn't matter what they think about what can and can't be done. They are not familiar or have knowledge of the project. Yep discussion is cool, but 2 thousand post later it's just a lot of repeating the same info over and over again, that is the point I'm making. There is no need to keep posting the same info over and over again, with meaningless speculation as if you're privy to the process.

 

[geordiemp]

Day 479 and still no substance. Just speculating from people who really don't know anything about Sony Manufacturing or Engineering Process. Digital Foundry don't know, Beyond 3D doesn't know all they do is speculate and offer conjecture. .

Of course we dont know, and we can have opinions on the many tests done by Digital foundry comparing Ps4 to their cheap PC for the past 2.5 years (which had a 1.4 TF card run games in 60 FPS that Ps4 could get no where near). Put that information with many comments about the Jaguar CPU being a bottleneck on many games, then we are hopeful that something can be done and our voice to be heard.

Anyway, what do you expect from an online forum ? All threads repeat stuff after a few pages, if it drives you nuts maybe take up golf ! Thread whining is probably less constructive than our wish list, so why are you here again ?

 

[Jack The Nipper]

Again, none of them work for Sony so it doesn't matter what they think about what can and can't be done. They are not familiar or have knowledge of the project. Yep discussion is cool, but 2 thousand post later it's just a lot of repeating the same info over and over again, that is the point I'm making. There is no need to keep posting the same info over and over again, with meaningless speculation as if you're privy to the process.

you just described life, work, marriage . all random things that we do that we dont have to do but just do it just because.

of course they discuss something and you know what? I bet you also discuss things at time that you also dont know. This happens every day everywhere and its nothing new.

So, you either have to join it or forget it. Just how it goes... People are talking the possibility and I doubt that will just end cause they dont worry at sony .

Are you married, or single or have a gf? if yes or no why? Its just a process of seeing it and acting it out again, oh that is what language is as well so why not try to change it so we arent so robitic?

 

[Arkham]

Do we have some new juicy rumours or how is this thread kept alive, Hype?

Born of rumour, fed by hype, and killed by facts (or reborn!). The usual.

 

[LurkFish17]

Screw it, I'm going to be optimistic on the final specs until announcement. Sony has to have some kind of game plan given the announcement from microsoft. Also, I keep hearing there was some article about a possible ps5 releasing after 2017. Does anyone know where that rumor came from?

 

[Palmer27]

The real question is whether to build a pc with a 480 or upgrade to a new ps4...

 

[backbreaker65]

you just described life, work, marriage . all random things that we do that we dont have to do but just do it just because.

of course they discuss something and you know what? I bet you also discuss things at time that you also dont know. This happens every day everywhere and its nothing new.

So, you either have to join it or forget it. Just how it goes... People are talking the possibility and I doubt that will just end cause they dont worry at sony .

Are you married, or single or have a gf? if yes or no why? Its just a process of seeing it and acting it out again, oh that is what language is as well so why not try to change it so we arent so robitic?

2,000 post saying the same shit, over and over, the well has run dry.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

AmyS just posted this article in the Scorpio thread but I thought it relevant here too: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-prospect-of-playstation-neo-and-xbox-scorpio

Very interesting comment from Tim Sweeney about CPU-GPU balance which I guess was a deliberate question from Eurogamer given the forum debates about the consoles "weak" CPUs.

According to the specs we've seen so far, PlayStation Neo and Xbox Scorpio look to make their performance gains through GPU rather than CPU power - a move that makes sense to Sweeney.

"I feel like consoles will remain in balance," he said. "You can see in some of the most complex games at the moment, the CPU is having no trouble keeping up with complex scenarios. As game developers, you can spend far more time doing far more optimisation for CPU than GPU - a GPU is a perfectly parallel brute force computing device, if you give us a fixed algorithm and tell us to make it two times faster there's not much we can do, you can spend a year making our game run twice as fast. If you look at what's going on in the industry, it's still propelling GPU performance growth over CPU performance growth, which is a trend I think is going to continue."

So whether the consoles have Zen or Jaguar according to Sweeney it will be fine. I think he both knows what he is talking about and knows as much as anybody the specs of the consoles.

 

[AmyS]

Thanks MILKMAN ^

 

[RoboPlato]

AmyS just posted this article in the Scorpio thread but I thought it relevant here too: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-prospect-of-playstation-neo-and-xbox-scorpio

Very interesting comment from Tim Sweeney about CPU-GPU balance which I guess was a deliberate question from Eurogamer given the forum debates about the consoles "weak" CPUs.



So whether the consoles have Zen or Jaguar according to Sweeney it will be fine. I think he both knows what he is talking about and knows as much as anybody the specs of the consoles.

For 30fps targets it won't be an issue. Most engines are built around dealing with the 1.6Ghz jaguars these days. The real reason people want to see the improvement is to get 60fps upgrades become more likely.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Thanks MILKMAN ^

No problem.Hope you don't mind me posting in this thread! I was about to reply in the Scorpio thread to let you know.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Day 479 and still no substance. Just speculating from people who really don't know anything about Sony Manufacturing or Engineering Process. Digital Foundry don't know, Beyond 3D doesn't know all they do is speculate and offer conjecture.

I guess they can do this, but this chip can't do that, it's to late to change this, oh but don't bother doing that it will bottleneck, Are you an engineer that has done this type of work? No but I play one online. Oh yeah? Yeah, I'll read up on the subject, come back and regurgitate, rinse and repeat.


It's okay to say you don't know and take a wait and see approach. This thread is about 2 thousand and Sixty-four post to long.

Discussion has definitely stagnated, but this topic has slowed down considerably.

 

[AmyS]

No problem.Hope you don't mind me posting in this thread! I was about to reply in the Scorpio thread to let you know.

Actually glad you did, I had just posted the same here, looked, saw you had already posted it so I edited my post

 

[geordiemp]

So whether the consoles have Zen or Jaguar according to Sweeney it will be fine. I think he both knows what he is talking about and knows as much as anybody the specs of the consoles.

http://www.pcgamer.com/durantes-witcher-3-analysis-the-alchemy-of-smoothness/

If you have at least a quad core CPU, its per-core sequential performance does not need to be tremendous to achieve consistent 60 FPS&#8212;in the benchmark, even 2.2 GHz proved sufficient.

Open world AAA RPG's like Witcher 3 will probably be stuck at 30 FPS due to the Jaguar.

For me thats not good enough to buy another console. Maybe we cant have these nice things on console and will have to go PC or wait for Scorpio ?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Actually glad you did, I had just posted the same here, looked, saw you had already posted it so I edited my post

Sorry! I thought given the complaints today about posters going round in circles it was a good idea to post something new. It is a pity that all the posters that have shared info have gone so quiet now (Sony borrowed Nintendo's ninjas?)

Open world AAA RPG's like Witcher 3 will be stuck at 30 FPS due to the Jaguar. Remember the quote above requires an Intel QUAD core at 2.2 Ghz with Hyper threading..........................

So a 2.1 Jaguar would never be able to run Witcher 3 at 60 FPS for example...........

So yeah, if I want to be stuck with a console for another 4 years maybe that cant do 1080p60 for big open world AAA games that I like, then great just do the GPU please Sony. For me thats not good enough. Maybe we cant have these nice things on console and will have to go PC or wait for Scorpio ?

Unfortunately the vast majority of console buyers really don't care about 60 FPS outside of shooters and race sims, maybe. As for Witcher 3 looking at this review it doesn't seem like a CPU limited game at all? http://www.techspot.com/review/1006-the-witcher-3-benchmarks/page5.html

 

[Lemondish]

Open world AAA RPG's like Witcher 3 will probably be stuck at 30 FPS due to the Jaguar.

For me thats not good enough to buy another console. Maybe we cant have these nice things on console and will have to go PC or wait for Scorpio ?

I really doubt it. Witcher 3 isn't very CPU intensive at all. It could easily hit 60fps with the extra GPU power from Neo.

 

[Lister]

Sorry! I thought given the complaints today about posters going round in circles it was a good idea to post something new. It is a pity that all the posters that have shared info have gone so quiet now (Sony borrowed Nintendo's ninjas?)



Unfortunately the vast majority of console buyers really don't care about 60 FPS outside of shooters and race sims, maybe. As for Witcher 3 looking at this review it doesn't seem like a CPU limited game at all? http://www.techspot.com/review/1006-the-witcher-3-benchmarks/page5.html

Those are beefy PC CPU's though.

Grnated they are also running the game at levels of details and with number sof NPC's that you don't see on the consle versions...

 

[geordiemp]

Unfortunately the vast majority of console buyers really don't care about 60 FPS outside of shooters and race sims, maybe. As for Witcher 3 looking at this review it doesn't seem like a CPU limited game at all? http://www.techspot.com/review/1006-the-witcher-3-benchmarks/page5.html

Your right, many dont care about 60 FPS, just the enthusiasts and those considering buying a PC. Wait...is that not what the Neo purpose is ?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1231777

Its anecdotal, but most asked for 60 FPS, some for 120 lol. I am sure if Sony actually asked, nobody would be asking for just better shadows and AA and still 30 FPS,

 

[anothertech]

I am on #TeamZEN - I dont really care if the GPU is 4.2, 4.5 or 5 TF really as long as the console gets a big CPU bump. Gimme 60 FPS at 1080p dammit....

IF it is a Zen 2.1 Ghz, then theoretically its almost 100 % improvement over jaguar.

I dont care about 4K30 gaming at all and yes I have a 55 inch panny 4K TV that I game on. Whats important is the system is balanced so we get high textures, great lods and shadows / details, and the console has a chance of getting to 60 FPS on titles if developers allow.

I think anything over 4 TF will be more than enough for VR or 1080p gaming, its all about doing that fast and efficiently and a CPU / bandwidth bump is sorely needed. The GPU bump is massive and more than enough.

If Scorpio is 6 TF you wont notice any difference at 1080p, 60fps target. differences will be down to frame rates and if there are CPU / Bandwidth bottlenecks imo.

I could be down with that. Though I think if they do go the #teamZen route, I really do hope they upclock the GPU as well just to get as much out of the system as possible.

If they are just really focused on GPU upgrades into the future though, like AmyS link, I hope that means devs are going to start looking more into gpgpu and other GPU based offloading do we can still hit that 60 fps sweet spot. Would be such s wasted opportunity if there is such a bottleneck.

 

[AmyS]

Sorry! I thought given the complaints today about posters going round in circles it was a good idea to post something new. It is a pity that all the posters that have shared info have gone so quiet now (Sony borrowed Nintendo's ninjas?)

The way I see it, you don't have anything to be sorry for It's good you posted it here, as it is indeed relevant to both Scorpio and Neo.

 

[Dictator93]

I really doubt it. Witcher 3 isn't very CPU intensive at all. It could easily hit 60fps with the extra GPU power from Neo.

The reason why the witcher 3 on console has less NPCs, worse novigrad performance, and incredibly low LODs in comparison to the PC version is due to limitations in console CPUs and eh game also being CPU intensive regarding specific features.

If Neo just has a jag again, then the GPU will be limited in its ability to hit any theoretical 60 fps in spite of itself.

 

[serversurfer]

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-radeon-rx-480-polaris-10,4616.html
https://community.amd.com/community/gaming/blog/2016/03/28/asynchronous-shaders-evolved
Bonus quote for hope for the future
Another bonus is me seeing this 3 years before it happened
Could Sony create fixed function pipelines for the PS4 even after release?
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/...ed-function-pipelines-through-firmware.58209/

Well, sweet! Nice find! ^.^

Just the 1.7 rumoured IPC from the many desktop zen articles.....and the clock rumour to 2.1 Ghz . But your right, we know nothing......it is just a guess, but at least we are comparing mobile core Jag vs mobile core Zen....so you would hope there would sill be an IPC improvement.

What's the source for this? AMD says Zen's IPC is 1.4x Excavator's, but I haven't seen anything comparing it directly to Jag (except you <3). Is Excavator really only 1.2x the IPC of Jag?

http://www.pcgamer.com/durantes-witcher-3-analysis-the-alchemy-of-smoothness/

Open world AAA RPG's like Witcher 3 will probably be stuck at 30 FPS due to the Jaguar.

Keep in mind that DF needed 4+GHz i7 to maintain 60 fps in Witcher. I don't think Witcher's performance issues are strictly "because of Jag."

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Sorry, that sounded a lot more accusatory than I intended. <3 Also, it's not just you. Lots of people seem to think Zen would be some sort of last minute change, but I'm not really sure why. I guess because it was initially presented as Option B, but if I were Sony, reusing the old tech would be my "alternate" option. /shrug

Well, I'm not sure that we'd necessarily hear about all of these milestones. Did we hear about the tapeout for this 36CU Jag APU they've been sending out? And I don't know why Bob would tell Osiris in March and again in June that they still hadn't chosen a spec if they were already locked in to one last year or whatever.

Sorry I should have responded to these points the other day....

Don't worry about accusing me of anything! I have been repeating myself a lot and annoying myself to be honest. I think there is a lot of confusion because to me the two options info Osiris has shared just doesn't make any sense to me given how Sony have operated in the past and how illogical it sounds that Sony/AMD would develop two APUs/SoCs (Say Jaguar+Polaris or Zen+Polaris) and still as of late June 5-8 months before launch, still not picked one. Then throw one away.

The simplest explanation for the two option confusion for me would be that the Sony reps that spoke to Osiris explained things poorly and combined with DF's later docs leak about the dev kit being 2.1GHz Jaguar confusion ensued? If you read the section of Osiris' original post about the CPU it isn't clear what is really being said:

Price is currently $399.99 they were discussing a better CPU which would raise the price to $499.99 we were guaranteed the price will be no higher than $499.99 (He mentioned the CPU upgrade quite a bit almost as if they haven't really decided on a final spec could be a pricing issue.) also there is currently no plan for any type of trade in program for current PS4 users but that could change.

The rest of the post is the Sony reps saying how much better games will look and perform above PS4 which is odd when according to the Neo docs Sony are going out of their way to ensure PS4 owners aren't gimped with some strong rules. Granted, these Sony reps were probably salesman that may not know much about specs etc?

As for Bob...I don't know who he is or how Osiris came to get info from him outside of he is/was a Sony dev. All I can say right now based on the leaked docs is that we are in mid July and devs in theory have the 2nd gen test kit and code submissions start in about a month and I can't see any way devs could do that (either by patch or new game) if they either don't have final spec hardware. Whether it turns out the CPU is Jag or Zen, it can only be one of them when those first dev kits that went out in March/April or before.

I know it could be very different being a mid-gen upgrade but production PS4 was submitted to the FCC in July 2013 and that sample was made in May 2013 a full 6 months before the launch of retail hardware being available. That is my definition of being locked down. I'm not sure if Sony would/could truncate or change anything here for Neo.

You watch Sony present Neo and everything leaked turns out wrong.....!

 

[serversurfer]

Sorry I should have responded to these points the other day....

Don't worry about accusing me of anything! I have been repeating myself a lot and annoying myself to be honest.

Same. lol

I think there is a lot of confusion because to me the two options info Osiris has shared just doesn't make any sense to me given how Sony have operated in the past and how illogical it sounds that Sony/AMD would develop two APUs/SoCs (Say Jaguar+Polaris or Zen+Polaris) and still as of late June 5-8 months before launch, still not picked one. Then throw one away.

I mentioned this before, but I think "throwaway" wafers are probably part and parcel of refining a new process. As I understand it, you don't develop a new architecture on a new process, because that's too many complications to deal with at once. First they make some established tech while they get used to working with the new process, and then they start on novel architectures. So yeah, I think production of a "super-Jag" wafer would be part of the normal process of developing a Zen APU. Once you produce a couple of decent Jag wafers on the new process, you can snap them apart in to "preliminary" dev kits, and start working on the new arch. Once that's done, you'll finally be ready to launch. Tentatively… Q1?

The simplest explanation for the two option confusion for me would be that the Sony reps that spoke to Osiris explained things poorly and combined with DF's later docs leak about the dev kit being 2.1GHz Jaguar confusion ensued? If you read the section of Osiris' original post about the CPU it isn't clear what is really being said:

That doesn't seem particularly confusing to me; they were considering two different specs at two different price points. Then just before the Scorpio announcement when everyone thought Neo would be launching this holiday instead of Q1 as he'd initially been told, he said that things had changed, and now the lower spec would be $499, and the higher spec was too expensive to consider. Then just after the Scorpio announcement, Bob told Osiris that Sony still felt that launching in Q1 gave them the best chance of hitting $499, even if they went with the higher spec.

The rest of the post is the Sony reps saying how much better games will look and perform above PS4 which is odd when according to the Neo docs Sony are going out of their way to ensure PS4 owners aren't gimped with some strong rules. Granted, these Sony reps were probably salesman that may not know much about specs etc?

I don't really see a dichotomy there. Games will look and run better on Neo, and Sony has rules in place to ensure PS4 owners don't get shafted in the process. We may actually see stricter adherence to 1080p30 for PS4 games, simply because dropped frames and sub-native res will be called out as "lazy" by both Sony and PS4 owners. Sony have never really enforced any kind of performance standards in the past, and I'm not sure if they have strict rules in place now — outside of multiplayer concerns — but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was no small amount of pressure on devs to start with 1080p30 as a "strict" baseline, and leave the bells and whistles for the Neo edition.

As for Bob...I don't know who he is or how Osiris came to get info from him outside of he is/was a Sony dev. All I can say right now based on the leaked docs is that we are in mid July and devs in theory have the 2nd gen test kit and code submissions start in about a month and I can't see any way devs could do that (either by patch or new game) if they either don't have final spec hardware. Whether it turns out the CPU is Jag or Zen, it can only be one of them when those first dev kits that went out in March/April or before.

I still don't understand why people think devs need so much advance warning about the final specs. What if the GTX1080 was 20% faster than anyone had anticipated? How would that have affected game development on PC? What if it were 200% faster? Would PC developers need to throw away all of their games and start over?

You understand that the same technology that makes cross-gen compatibility feasible also makes the underlying hardware not particularly relevant? Nobody talks to the hardware except Sony. Not even their own game devs have access to the hardware. Changing the CPU from Jag to Zen shouldn't have any more effect on Uncharted than changing your i3 to an i7 — or even i9 — has on Shovel Knight or Notepad. You don't need a different copy of Shovel Knight, you just need a new driver for your new hardware. The apps themselves all remain the same, but they may perform a little better on the new hardware.

I know it could be very different being a mid-gen upgrade but production PS4 was submitted to the FCC in July 2013 and that sample was made in May 2013 a full 6 months before the launch of retail hardware being available. That is my definition of being locked down. I'm not sure if Sony would/could truncate or change anything here for Neo.

Well, if we really believe Neo will launch this year, it'd need to be no later than PSVR, which is a full month before PS4 launched. (mid-Oct vs. mid-Nov) So if everything is locked down and launching this year as you seem to believe, shouldn't we have already seen the FCC samples and whatnot? Sure, any game launching after October must be "Neo aware," but WTF does that even mean, apart from potentially needing to cap frame rates in multiplayer? But that's just a vague software requirement. Is there anything to indicate the hardware is actually being prepped for launch three months from now?

You watch Sony present Neo and everything leaked turns out wrong.....!

Well, Jim Ryan seemed pretty confident we were thoroughly confused. ;p

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Same. lol I mentioned this before, but I think "throwaway" wafers are probably part and parcel of refining a new process. As I understand it, you don't develop a new architecture on a new process, because that's too many complications to deal with at once. First they make some established tech while they get used to working with the new process, and then they start on novel architectures. So yeah, I think production of a "super-Jag" wafer would be part of the normal process of developing a Zen APU. Once you produce a couple of decent Jag wafers on the new process, you can snap them apart in to "preliminary" dev kits, and start working on the new arch. Once that's done, you'll finally be ready to launch. Tentatively… Q1?

I'm really no expert here and just read a lot on the internet, but I don't think it works like this. One thing I've read is that Jaguar would need to be redesigned from scratch by AMD from 28nm planar to 14nm FinFet. Would Sony pay the apparent millions of $ to do this if it meant throwing it away if they choose Zen?

That doesn't seem particularly confusing to me; they were considering two different specs at two different price points. Then just before the Scorpio announcement when everyone thought Neo would be launching this holiday instead of Q1 as he'd initially been told, he said that things had changed, and now the lower spec would be $499, and the higher spec was too expensive to consider. Then just after the Scorpio announcement, Bob told Osiris that Sony still felt that launching in Q1 gave them the best chance of hitting $499, even if they went with the higher spec.

Reading it written like this makes it sound like the info was changing to reflect other info coming out and about Scorpio. Osiris also said they always had 2 options and weren't reacting IIRC?

I don't really see a dichotomy there. Games will look and run better on Neo, and Sony has rules in place to ensure PS4 owners don't get shafted in the process. We may actually see stricter adherence to 1080p30 for PS4 games, simply because dropped frames and sub-native res will be called out as "lazy" by both Sony and PS4 owners. Sony have never really enforced any kind of performance standards in the past, and I'm not sure if they have strict rules in place now — outside of multiplayer concerns — but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was no small amount of pressure on devs to start with 1080p30 as a "strict" baseline, and leave the bells and whistles for the Neo edition.

I might be naive here, but I would think it important for a Sony rep to inform/reassure frontline retail that OG PS4 wouldn't be gimped or forgotten going forward. Not just big up the new model.

I still don't understand why people think devs need so much advance warning about the final specs. What if the GTX1080 was 20% faster than anyone had anticipated? How would that have affected game development on PC? What if it were 200% faster? Would PC developers need to throw away all of their games and start over?

You understand that the same technology that makes cross-gen compatibility feasible also makes the underlying hardware not particularly relevant? Nobody talks to the hardware except Sony. Not even their own game devs have access to the hardware. Changing the CPU from Jag to Zen shouldn't have any more effect on Uncharted than changing your i3 to an i7 — or even i9 — has on Shovel Knight or Notepad. You don't need a different copy of Shovel Knight, you just need a new driver for your new hardware. The apps themselves all remain the same, but they may perform a little better on the new hardware.

Again I have no real idea how Sony work or what devs actually need. All I would ask logically is why do Sony send out so many iterations of proto/dev/test kits over a 18-24 month period to devs if they aren't needed? Why not tell devs to develop on PC/middleware and they'll send them a single finished dev/test kit 3 months before launch to port the final game to?

Well, if we really believe Neo will launch this year, it'd need to be no later than PSVR, which is a full month before PS4 launched. (mid-Oct vs. mid-Nov) So if everything is locked down and launching this year as you seem to believe, shouldn't we have already seen the FCC samples and whatnot? Sure, any game launching after October must be "Neo aware," but WTF does that even mean, apart from potentially needing to cap frame rates in multiplayer? But that's just a vague software requirement. Is there anything to indicate the hardware is actually being prepped for launch three months from now?

Not necessarily. As I understand it the FCC is for new/changed wireless/Bluetooth hardware? Maybe Neo has the same chips here as PS4 so don't need to be re-submitted? Even if not Sony have hinted about a much shorter announce/release and any required FCC filing would come later than previously? This time we might have a full official announcement before we get any info nuggets from the FCC.

As an aside, I did come across this MIC (Japan's FCC?) filing that could be a early/first Neo dev kit filed last December? http://www.tele.soumu.go.jp/giteki/...=413ul&SN=%94%46%8F%D8&LN=2&R1=*****&R2=***** Could be just a new PS4 dev kit but the date makes me think maybe not....

Well, Jim Ryan seemed pretty confident we were thoroughly confused. ;p

I'm sure he is!

 

[mckmas8808]

If it does indeed come with Zen, it would certainly make it a more enticing upgrade... But it'll also be a much more significant leap over the current PS4 and I would feel alienated if I couldn't afford it.

You wouldn't have to get it on day one......

 

[g11]

While I would never dream to assume I know better than Tim Sweeney about...well, pretty much anything, if what he said in that article about the balance of CPU and GPU power on consoles being proper is true and that it will continue with the half-step refreshes, it can't also be true that some games have been CPU bound in regards to their frame rates. Maybe he's just speaking in broad terms considering AFAIK he has yet to make an open-world game and that seems to be where the majority of the CPU bottleneck this generation is rearing it's head, but that would just kind of undermine his statement as he must know open-world games are a huge segment of the market these days.

Either way, if the CPU was/is a legit issue, it would be really sad to see Sony make the exact same mistake yet again with NEO. Personally, I'm not expecting NEO or Scorpio to deliver big "AAA" games in 4K, nor would I really care if they did, but if they can't even give us 1080p60fps at the same graphical fidelity (ideally slightly better) as the PS4, then for the life of me I don't see the point in these half measures, unless it's purely for VR, at which point I've lost all interest, as with 4K.

 

[mckmas8808]

While I would never dream to assume I know better than Tim Sweeney about...well, pretty much anything, if what he said in that article about the balance of CPU and GPU power on consoles being proper is true and that it will continue with the half-step refreshes, it can't also be true that some games have been CPU bound in regards to their frame rates. Maybe he's just speaking in broad terms considering AFAIK he has yet to make an open-world game and that seems to be where the majority of the CPU bottleneck this generation is rearing it's head, but that would just kind of undermine his statement as he must know open-world games are a huge segment of the market these days.

Either way, if the CPU was/is a legit issue, it would be really sad to see Sony make the exact same mistake yet again with NEO. Personally, I'm not expecting NEO or Scorpio to deliver big "AAA" games in 4K, nor would I really care if they did, but if they can't even give us 1080p60fps at the same graphical fidelity (ideally slightly better) as the PS4, then for the life of me I don't see the point in these half measures, unless it's purely for VR, at which point I've lost all interest, as with 4K.

The issue here is that you actually think all games need or should be 60 fps. No console system in the history of mankind is put together to maintain 60 fps for all games.

That's not how it works.

 

[g11]

The issue here is that you actually think all games need or should be 60 fps. No console system in the history of mankind is put together to maintain 60 fps for all games.

That's not how it works.

Only if you take what I said to it's most pedantic extreme would you assume that I meant 1080p60fps for all games when currently barely any games this generation can claim 60fps even at sub 1080p. 60fps in the majority of games and a stable frame rate in more taxing games where even stable 30fps currently is a problem is not an unreasonable request if we're going to a 3 year upgrade cycle. I dare say 1080p60fps is more integral to this generation and would be valued by more people than 4K or VR will be.

 

[anothertech]

The issue here is that you actually think all games need or should be 60 fps. No console system in the history of mankind is put together to maintain 60 fps for all games.

That's not how it works.

Some of us actually prefer 30fps with more bells and whistles lol. If that's what we get, and devs actually make good use of the gpu power, that will be great for some.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Had another sniff around the MIC website and found this from 9th May: http://www.tele.soumu.go.jp/giteki/...=422ul&SN=%94%46%8F%D8&LN=4&R1=*****&R2=*****

I wonder if this is the Neo test kit DF mentioned?

 

[serversurfer]

I'm really no expert here and just read a lot on the internet, but I don't think it works like this. One thing I've read is that Jaguar would need to be redesigned from scratch by AMD from 28nm planar to 14nm FinFet. Would Sony pay the apparent millions of $ to do this if it meant throwing it away if they choose Zen?

Well, like I said, I think it's actually a pretty iterative process; that's why it takes so long and costs so much money; they make lots of different things before they finally settle in on what will work best. But that doesn't necessarily mean they don't produce anything functional and useful in the interim. If they go one step at a time and produce a couple of good wafers at each milestone, such test wafers could easily supply test kits to "select" devs. (Even a low-yield wafer should produce 100 APUs or more; plenty to supply secret development.)

Speaking of time and money, I'm not real clear on why shrinking Jag would be any more expensive or difficult than shrinking anything else would be. Sure, $100M is a lot to you or me, but it's a drop in the bucket for Sony, especially if they intend to continue selling PS4 after Neo launches, and by all accounts, they do.

Reading it written like this makes it sound like the info was changing to reflect other info coming out and about Scorpio. Osiris also said they always had 2 options and weren't reacting IIRC?

Yes, Osiris said from the beginning that Sony always had two options, and also said they still do. I'm not sure where you get the idea that there weren't two options, or the idea that Sony have done anything "in response" to Scorpio.

On the contrary, it sounded like Sony were/are weighing their options, and started letting info leak in hopes of teasing something out of MS. Rather than Sony "reacting" to the Scorpio announcement, it seems more like MS were responding to Neo by pre-announcing a performance target for Scorpio, almost directly; Osiris basically told us things had changed and Sony would be launching this year instead of next, and at $499 with the lower spec. Literally a few days later, you have Spencer telling the press that in a year and a half, Scorpio was gonna be the most powerful console and it wasn't coming out until next year because they didn't wanna do a One-and-a-Half (like some companies, amirite). Then after MS publicly showed their cards, Sony told Osiris, "Yeah, we'll prolly just stick with the original plan of launching the more powerful one next spring."

I'd say one company is indeed a few steps ahead of the other, but I suspect it's not the company you think…

Again I have no real idea how Sony work or what devs actually need. All I would ask logically is why do Sony send out so many iterations of proto/dev/test kits over a 18-24 month period to devs if they aren't needed? Why not tell devs to develop on PC/middleware and they'll send them a single finished dev/test kit 3 months before launch to port the final game to?

Beats me! lol Similarly, I have no idea how or why they'd even produce multiple versions of the dev kit if making just one is as big an undertaking as you seem to think. ;p

But here's some more stuff to consider. Like I said, the only information devs have about the hardware is what's provided by the kernel, and that could be a total lie. The dev kit reports 8 Jag cores, but behind the scenes the code could be executed by 4 Zen cores, or 8 Zen cores, or a team of very clever mules, and as long as they continue getting expected results, the devs will be none the wiser. So maybe Neo is already Zen!!

Oh, and regarding the October deadline for being Neo-aware, I imagine they'd want the deadline to be well in advance of the Neo launch, so they can more easily sell it as improving "the games you already own."

Not necessarily. As I understand it the FCC is for new/changed wireless/Bluetooth hardware? Maybe Neo has the same chips here as PS4 so don't need to be re-submitted? Even if not Sony have hinted about a much shorter announce/release and any required FCC filing would come later than previously? This time we might have a full official announcement before we get any info nuggets from the FCC.

Yeah, I'm not really sure that we'd get any "leaks" from the FCC. In the end, I guess we'll know when we know, but as far as I'm aware, the most current information we have from Osiris is that both power Options remain open to Sony, and they think launching in Q1 will be their best move in terms of both price and tech, which fits with everything he's been told, if you assume the "We'll actually probably launch the worse one for the higher price this year instead" that the story changed to for a couple of weeks was just a ruse.

The issue here is that you actually think all games need or should be 60 fps. No console system in the history of mankind is put together to maintain 60 fps for all games.

That's not how it works.

Ultimately, it will be up to the dev in question, but given who Neo will be marketed towards, I would think, "Better Frame Rates!!" will be a fairly common bullet point on Neo editions. Many games won't change at all when running on Neo, like 99% of indies, for example. /shrug

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

So I've read what reads like genuine Neo dev docs as described by GB/DF. I have PM'd a mod to ask about posting the link but haven't had a reply yet.

Nothing groundbreaking in there but it does reaffirm to me that Jaguar+36CUs and 4.2TF is a lock.

 

[RoboPlato]

So I've read what reads like genuine Neo dev docs as described by GB/DF. I have PM'd a mod to ask about posting the link but haven't had a reply yet.

Nothing groundbreaking in there but it does reaffirm to me that Jaguar+36CUs and 4.2TF is a lock.

Anything interesting?

 

[OdysseusVA]

So I've read what reads like genuine Neo dev docs as described by GB/DF. I have PM'd a mod to ask about posting the link but haven't had a reply yet.

Nothing groundbreaking in there but it does reaffirm to me that Jaguar+36CUs and 4.2TF is a lock.

Don't see the harm in posting a link as long as youre clear about its validity

 

[scently]

Anything interesting?

Yeah.

The pdf discusses a lot of scenarios that I have in mind about how both the Neo and Scorpio might handle 1080p, 4k, and any resolution in between. Like they suggest you can have 2 framebuffer; one for 1080p, and another for above 1080p upto 4k. Presumably you can have a situation whereby once a 1080p display is detected it renders the game in 1080p framebuffer with added effects and or higher framerates, while if a 4k display is detected, it renders at a higher res up to 4k, presumable with or without added effects and or better framerates, depending on what the developer feels can work.

They also talk about allowing downscaling for when a game renders at a higher than 1080p res and downsample to 1080p display. This will obviously give a boost to image quality.

It is not compulsory to ship with 2 framebuffers. They are still discussing and they suggest targeting different resolutions if you can't hit 4k native.