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[Peltz]

PSVR 180

 

[serversurfer]

Oh, I was going to mention that mandates aside, if it's at all possible for you to put together a single-handed, DS4 implementation of your Move game, it would probably behoove you to do so, even if it turns out somewhat clumsy. Realistically, it only needs to be good enough to make most users say, "Whoa, this is… *grab* *toss* HA!! Who wants to come with me to get those wands??" ;p

More PSVR/Move demo stations would prolly be as good or better though. lol

 

[……forgetit]

Makes sense, how would London heist even work with a controller?

 

[fritolay]

Wait, do you have to buy the Move and Camera, or is that one package? That doesn't come with PSVR? Will PSVR work without the camera and move? I don't understand the difference will customers

 

[BigTnaples]

Good. Some VR games need motion controls to work. So many amazing Vive games wouldn't work if built to also work with a gamepad.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

On DS4 mandated:

That's great they have 40million consoles with DS4 controllers they are just opening the PSVR platform to more people. If people want a more immersive experience they can buy move or aim controllers. Great move by Sony.

You essentially need the camera and the headset which cost of entry would be no more than $450

On DS4 not mandated:

Exactly, Sony encoraging devs to support for DS4 but not mandating it, is great for players who can't purchase the moves controllers straight away but it also supports devs with move only experiencies that also encourage players to buy the move controllers. Win/Win indeed. Devs will be happy too.

Come on bruh. lol

 

[foolishoptimist]

On DS4 mandated:


On DS4 not mandated:


Come on bruh. lol

Lol

Win/Win indeed.

 

[Pathfinder]

On DS4 mandated:

On DS4 not mandated:

Come on bruh. lol

In the same thread, even...

 

[Kyolux]

Wait, do you have to buy the Move and Camera, or is that one package? That doesn't come with PSVR? Will PSVR work without the camera and move? I don't understand the difference will customers

There's a core box with just the headset for those that already have the rest of the stuff. (399)

Then there's a bundle with a game, a camera and 2 move controllers. (499)

Not all games will support move controllers, not all games will support DS4.

All games require the camera.

 

[Sangetsu-II]

"Exactly, Sony encoraging devs to support for DS4 but not mandating it, is great for players who can't purchase the moves controllers straight away but it also supports devs with move only experiencies that also encourage players to buy the move controllers. Win/Win indeed. Devs will be happy too."


You are precious.

On DS4 mandated:


On DS4 not mandated:


Come on bruh. lol

I like what's best for the consumer, devs are an after thought to me.

I want support for the system even if all games would've required DS4 or not to attract the users. I'm ok with either option.

Edit: I'm a PSVR fan as you can see by my multiple threads

Spoiler

I'm the guy that convinces people to buy a PSVR lol

 

[Daft Punk]

Believe me, I'm no "PC enthusiast". I have a PSVR on pre-order for launch day, and don't own a Rift of Vive as of yet. If you see my post a little above you can see that I'm not using the Vive as a reason this would have been a bad idea... but the original Move games which also would have been compromised had they not been allowed to be designed in a way that actually required them.

You post about people "running around like Chicken Little".. but that's not the case. Everyone in here was posting what this would mean if it were true, and that includes you and the other defenders that were claiming that it wouldn't have any negative effect, and "do you think Sony's engineers didn't take this into account when designing it?". If all you had been posting were that we don't know for certain that this would actually be mandated, then you'd be entitled to your high horse. But you weren't, and so you're not... so climb down off it.

High horse!? lol I didn't know stating something as common sense as engineers taking every angle into account when designing a product was being on a high horse. Carry on champ.

 

[KatamariOnTheRocks]

Spare me. Half the people in here even arguing against it are PC enthusiasts citing Vive as the magical reason why this wouldn't work Durante included. Now we have clarification from Sony and devs who actually are making games and not consumers propping up their devices.

You mean now we have clarification from Sony and the devs who are actually making games that everyone saying it was a bad idea were completely correct?

Big surprise that the people making well thought-out and clearly explained points were right all along.

High horse!? lol I didn't know stating something as common sense as engineers taking every angle into account when designing a product was being on a high horse. Carry on champ.

The only thing that's common sense is how bad of an idea that this was and yet people were still dumb enough to defend it.

 

[serversurfer]

Makes sense, how would London heist even work with a controller?

My guess would be, "As a single, somewhat drift-prone hand."

Given the fact that the cramped space of the GameStop demos seems to ensure the wands are almost never seen by the camera and most users don't notice a problem, I suspect using a DS4 as a makeshift hand won't be nearly as terrible as some fear. Remember the LED only needs to be flashed at the camera for a single frame to wipe away all of your accumulated drift. Like I said, it really only needs to be good enough to convince the user of what the rest of us know already — the wands are a no-brainier investment, especially at $50/pair.

Like I said before, the only real obstacle is two-handed actions like reloading, and they can easily fall back to keybinding. Another idea would be rather than bringing the clip to the gun, simply tap the gun on the pile of clips. "If the mountain won't come to Mohamed…"

 

[Joystick]

Edit: I'm a PSVR fan as you can see by my multiple threads

Stay positive. I got your back.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

I like what's best for the consumer, devs are an after thought to me.

I get where you're coming from, but what was best for the consumer in this case was giving the devs the freedom to make the games without a limiting mandate. No need to put a positive spin on every decision Sony (or anyone makes). You can still champion the product and VR without being an unpaid PR guy and call them out when they make a mistake.

 

[justsomeguy]

On DS4 mandated:


On DS4 not mandated:


Come on bruh. lol

Haha 😂

 

[fvng]

Once again Sony has fucked up by not having a built in microphone in the move controllers for karaoke type software like SingStar. Photos of ppl using move controllers to sing into would look badass

 

[Synth]

High horse!? lol I didn't know stating something as common sense as engineers taking every angle into account when designing a product was being on a high horse. Carry on champ.

No, simply arguing that it's common sense for engineers to have taken every angle into account would have been fine (though, you'd still probably be wrong, and that's probably not true for basically any device ever created... In fact, "taking every angle into account" is actually humorous in this context).

Acting like anybody who thought this would be a bad idea, and would harm games are just Vive fanboys, "borderline FUD" spreading Chicken Little's, and that their well explained reasoning meant fuck all, until a dev chimes in, is a different matter entirely.

Turns out a dev did chime in, said their shit needs the Move, and Sony apparently agrees as they're letting the games require it. Which makes sense, as the alternative would have been dumb, for all the valid reasons covered in the thread already.

 

[cheezcake]

This makes much more sense

I still can't believe people thought a DS4 could be a suitable substitute for a move controller

 

[Doug Heffernan]

On DS4 mandated:


On DS4 not mandated:


Come on bruh. lol

Holy shit, that's embarrassing dude.

 

[pj]

Weird, it's almost as if it would have been a terrible policy.

Vindication for everyone in this thread who's actually used VR and knows what's up

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Weird, it's almost as if it would have been a terrible policy.

Vindication for everyone in this thread who's actually used VR and knows what's up

Funny enough alot of people in here did use vr some even own the vive but keep on going this entire thread has been hilarious

 

[Sangetsu-II]

Holy shit, that's embarrassing dude.

Not really

 

[ps3ud0]

Glad they corrected themselves, but yeah an unclear message is the last thing something like PSVR needs. While I fully expect v1 with pre-existing Moves to be somewhat of a hiccup, I do want it to be an analogue of PC VR devices to maximise the possibilities that developers can work with...

ps3ud0 8)

 

[ArtHands]

Spare me. Half the people in here even arguing against it are PC enthusiasts citing Vive as the magical reason why this wouldn't work Durante included. Now we have clarification from Sony and devs who actually are making games and not consumers propping up their devices.

what clarification did Sony and dev provided? The dev simply took the same stance as those who argue against it, while Sony merely switched their stance. They didn't go into depth on explaining anything.


Anyway, glad that Sony flip flop here.

 

[WordAssassin]

I'm so glad I was able to pick up two sets of Move controllers when Kmart was clearencing them out a couple years ago. I think they were like $6-8 for the wands and even less than that for the nunchucks? Now all I need is the helmet and a PS4 Camera.

 

[Arulan]

I like what's best for the consumer, devs are an after thought to me.

I want support for the system even if all games would've required DS4 or not to attract the users. I'm ok with either option.

Edit: I'm a PSVR fan as you can see by my multiple threads

Spoiler

I'm the guy that convinces people to buy a PSVR lol

Limiting game design by forced DS4 controller support wouldn't have benefited consumers. A simpler explanation is that you'll just find reasons for agreeing with whatever Sony's stance is at at given time.

Spare me. Half the people in here even arguing against it are PC enthusiasts citing Vive as the magical reason why this wouldn't work Durante included. Now we have clarification from Sony and devs who actually are making games and not consumers propping up their devices.

Funny enough alot of people in here did use vr some even own the vive but keep on going this entire thread has been hilarious

Is there a stigma with being a PC enthusiast? Perhaps there is a reason why enthusiasts, who have been following VR since the Oculus Rift Kickstarter, from news of best practices to technological advancements of the industry, who likely have a Vive or Rift, and/or have tried at least one VR headset, have a good understanding of VR to give well-informed and reasoned arguments. As it turns out, we were right. But I suppose the idea that these people weren't acting in some petty platform war, and gave well-reasoned arguments is too much to believe?

 

[Sangetsu-II]

Limiting game design by forced DS4 controller support wouldn't have benefited consumers. A simpler explanation is that you'll just find reasons for agreeing with whatever Sony's stance is at at given time.

Having madatory DS4 support for 40million PS4 consoles is good for consumer, cheap consumer who don't want to pay for extra accessories or consumer who don't buy into waggle products. Having strong emphasis on DS4 but give some developer some waivers for move only games at least calm the backlash so I support that stance too, agreeing to both statement doesn't necessarily makes me agree with whatever Sony's stance is at at given time.

But I can see why you would think that way of me and I have already clarified it in previous statement that I just want the best for the platform to take off and DS4 mandate or high support for the DS4 would certainly draw in more VR purchases. I decide to agree with both statements and stand by it.

Vive and Oculus won't survive alone do to the high based entry, they all need each other to survive, it's free promotion. PSVR needs to take off.

Edit:

As it turns out, we were right. But I suppose the idea that these people weren't acting in some petty platform war, and gave well-reasoned arguments is too much to believe?

Oh, so you are one of those. Nevermind you don't have to reply to me.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Having madatory DS4 support for 40million PS4 consoles is good for consumer, cheap consumer who don't want to pay for extra accessories or consumer who don't buy into waggle products.

If it massively limits game design and/or creates an unnecessary burden on the developers, it's not worth the tradeoff. Especially when the Move controllers are as cheap as they are. It's a moot point now though and PSVR will be a better platform for it.

 

[Massa]

In what universe are KBM - PC comparable to Console Controllers - VR?

Lol, thanks for demonstrating.

 

[jaypah]

If it massively limits game design and/or creates an unnecessary burden on the developers, it's not worth the tradeoff. Especially when the Move controllers are as cheap as they are. It's a moot point now though and PSVR will be a better platform for it.

It's over dude. People who defended the idea of mandatory DS4 use aren't going to change their tune. Just be happy that reality didn't match up with what they were fighting for and be thankful that PSVR will be better because of it. VR in general didn't need something that stupid, especially from a platform as big as PlayStation.

 

[rokkerkory]

Not that bad but part of gen 1 figuring itself out

 

[Kitsune86]

I'm glad they are dropping the requirements for the DS4. It wouldn't make sense for something like Job Simulator or Space Porate simulator would need two moves instead of a standard controller if those games come to PSVR.

On a somewhat unrelated note - glad I am grabbing MS move controllers now while they are cheap because come a few months the used price is going to skyrocket.

 

[Sky Chief]

Thank god, Sony not poisoning the well after all!

 

[ArtHands]

Having madatory DS4 support for 40million PS4 consoles is good for consumer, cheap consumer who don't want to pay for extra accessories or consumer who don't buy into waggle products. Having strong emphasis on DS4 but give some developer some waivers for move only games at least calm the backlash so I support that stance too, agreeing to both statement doesn't necessarily makes me agree with whatever Sony's stance is at at given time.

But I can see why you would think that way of me and I have already clarified it in previous statement that I just want the best for the platform to take off and DS4 mandate or high support for the DS4 would certainly draw in more VR purchases. I decide to agree with both statements and stand by it.

Vive and Oculus won't survive alone do to the high based entry, they all need each other to survive, it's free promotion. PSVR needs to take off.

Edit:

Oh, so you are one of those. Nevermind you don't have to reply to me.

That's a pretty short sighted view of the situation here. Once these people get into PSVR and discover a library of games with hamfisted DS4 control, it will sour their initial impression, deem VR as a gimmick and they will discourage their peers from buying it. Its the last initial impression that the VR need to deliver to the mass. What you will get is a quick initial sales but also a quick drop off sales after that, and then it'll be hard to get them back into VR again. If people find PSVR too expensive and they decided to skip the purchase now, then so be it. That doesn't mean they wont return later, and when they do once it is more feasible (price drop, better tech, newer model, better library, more words of mouth etc), they will be impressed.

Sure the VR will need those install base to sustain, but there isn't a need to rush it. I am sure HTC, Oculus and everyone etc know well enough to not expect things so early. Its a marathon, not a sprint.

 

[Sangetsu-II]

That's a pretty short sighted view of the situation here. Once these people get into PSVR and discover a library of games with hamfisted DS4 control, it will sour their initial impression, deem VR as a gimmick and they will discourage their peers from buying it. Its the last initial impression that the VR need to deliver to the mass. What you will get is a quick initial sales but also a quick drop off sales after that, and then it'll be hard to get them back into VR again. If people find PSVR too expensive and they decided to skip the purchase now, then so be it. That doesn't mean they wont return later, and when they do once it is more feasible (price drop, better tech, newer model, better library, more words of mouth etc), they will be impressed.

Sure the VR will need those install base to sustain, but there isn't a need to rush it. I am sure HTC, Oculus and everyone etc know well enough to not expect things so early. Its a marathon, not a sprint.

That's why I'm happy to support both statements that they made, while not mandating that DS4 be required but encouraging that most PSVR will be DS4 compatible (based on the new statement) with some wavered PS Move only games, they are essentially providing a Win/Win situation where they can target the crowd that doesn't want move (40m PS4's) but giving some PS Move only games for the crowd that already has or plans to buy PS Move (Couple millions). That's why I have clarified I support both statements and am happy that Sony found leveled ground to provide both their initial vision and the developers point of view. I'm not one so easily to switch sides like others have been making me out to me and laughing at my two differentiate posts in this thread.

 

[Armaros]

Lol, thanks for demonstrating.

So you can't explain it, thanks. Replace KBM with console controller and PC with Console and see how amazing your logic works.

 

[timlot]

PSVR 180

No no, faux messaging outrage is reserved.

 

[Massa]

So you can't explain it, thanks. Replace KBM with console controller and PC with Console and see how amazing your logic works.

???

Requiring a DS4 for all PS4 games is just as silly as requiring KBM for all PC games. I won't argue any of these points again, this thread is long enough as it is.

 

[ArtHands]

That's why I'm happy to support both statements that they made, while not mandating that DS4 be required but encouraging that most PSVR will be DS4 compatible (based on the new statement) with some wavered PS Move only games, they are essentially providing a Win/Win situation where they can target the crowd that doesn't want move (40m PS4's) but giving some PS Move only games for the crowd that already has or plans to buy PS Move (Couple millions). That's why I have clarified I support both statements and am happy that Sony found leveled ground to provide both their initial vision and the developers point of view. I'm not one so easily to switch sides like others have been making me out to me and laughing at my two differentiate posts in this thread.

Why will you still be happy if DS4 control is mandatory after I have explained it? Mandatory DS4 controls isn't beneficial to the VR games, which will easily create a bad VR library for the VR players who play them with DS4. Sales for PSVR drop sharply as a result too and Sony couldn't turn it into a long term business.

That's not good at all for the consumers, Sony and the entire VR industry.

 

[Sangetsu-II]

Why will you still be happy if DS4 control is mandatory after I have explained it? Mandatory DS4 controls isn't beneficial to the VR games, which will easily create a bad VR library for the VR players who play them with DS4. Sales for PSVR drop sharply as a result too and Sony couldn't turn it into a long term business.

That's not good at all for the consumers, Sony and the entire VR industry.

Did you even read my post? I'm happy that both statements where met at even level and that support for DS4 is strongly encouraged (based on Sony's new statement). With only few games being PS move only. This way any PS4 owner can own a PSVR without the need to purchase additional accessories. I swear you guys only just pick a sentence out of my entire post to get on my nerves.

 

[hodayathink]

what clarification did Sony and dev provided? The dev simply took the same stance as those who argue against it, while Sony merely switched their stance. They didn't go into depth on explaining anything.


Anyway, glad that Sony flip flop here.

I'm not sure Sony themselves ever flip-flopped on the policy, seeing as a company that is making a Move-only game for PSVR stated that they've never been told they need a DS4 implementation. This is much more likely to be a sign of a PR person making assumptions than Sony having a policy and then getting rid of it.

 

[ArtHands]

Did you even read my post? I'm happy that both statements where met at even level and that support for DS4 is strongly encouraged (based on Sony's new statement). With only few games being PS move only. This way any PS4 owner can own a PSVR without the need to purchase additional accessories. I swear you guys only just pick a sentence out of my entire post to get on my nerves.

I dont think who argue against it, have even suggested that Move-only titles should be the majority on PSVR. People arguing against it, is asking to allow Move-only titles on PSVR.

 

[Caayn]

On DS4 mandated:


On DS4 not mandated:


Come on bruh. lol

Amazing, within the same thread even.

 

[odhiex]

As long as I could play majority of the games (with DS4), I'm still fine with this.

Like my first post in this thread, I'm still waiting for that PS Move 2.0 tho.

 

[Zalusithix]

???

Requiring a DS4 for all PS4 games is just as silly as requiring KBM for all PC games. I won't argue any of these points again, this thread is long enough as it is.

I see where you're trying to come from on the matter, but they're not quite equivalent. A mouse and keyboard provides two axes of super precise analog control and a boatload of digital inputs. A modern console controller provides (ignoring potential motion controls which are rarely used) 5 full axes of so-so analog control, but only a comparative few digital. Mapping one to the other can create a passable experience in most situations due to the inherent abstraction that both provide. You can map an analog axis to a set of digital inputs and not be severely compromised quite often. Likewise you can lose the precision of the mouse with a stick and not be left with a radically different experience. There are cases on both sides where one doesn't work nearly as well as the other, but by and large they're generally interchangeable with minor effort.

A standard controller to VR tracked controllers is a rather more complex monster of a problem. Each tracked controller represents 6 axes of super precise analog control where they're in logically grouped as two bundles of 3 axes. One set for rotation, and one for location. None of these are abstracted inputs and are inherently 1:1. This is physically incapable of ever being passably mapped to the standard controller's 5 mediocre analog inputs (which are grouped in sets of 2 plus 2 half axes to make matters even worse). Even if we were to cut out both rotation groupings, you still have 6 highly precise analog axes to contend with. It's just a mess of a problem. And that's before we add any additional buttons or analog axes that the tracked controllers might have into the equation.

 

[Kyolux]

Like my first post in this thread, I'm still waiting for that PS Move 2.0 tho.

There's nothing hinting at that coming out in the near future. (next 2-3 years)

Current Move works fairly well with the PS4 camera too (compared to the PS3 one). I'm sure you can find Move controllers for a few bucks if you look for them. I don't see how that could be a bad thing to have.

 

[Neuromancer]

I can't see Move 2 coming until PS5-equivalent/PSVR2. They'd be silly do something like that midcycle.

 

[serversurfer]

Did you even read my post? I'm happy that both statements where met at even level and that support for DS4 is strongly encouraged (based on Sony's new statement). With only few games being PS move only. This way any PS4 owner can own a PSVR without the need to purchase additional accessories.

They're just teasing you for trying to see the positive aspects of both potential policy choices. <3 You're right, and ensuring every user is able to play every game is pretty sweet, but you're right, and not burdening developers with an impossible task is even sweeter.

I swear you guys only just pick a sentence out of my entire post to get on my nerves.

Yeah, that happens too. Stay on target.

I'm not sure Sony themselves ever flip-flopped on the policy, seeing as a company that is making a Move-only game for PSVR stated that they've never been told they need a DS4 implementation. This is much more likely to be a sign of a PR person making assumptions than Sony having a policy and then getting rid of it.

I don't suspect the Sony Too™ campaign is necessarily about accuracy…

A standard controller to VR tracked controllers is a rather more complex monster of a problem. Each tracked controller represents 6 axes of super precise analog control where they're in logically grouped as two bundles of 3 axes. One set for rotation, and one for location. None of these are abstracted inputs and are inherently 1:1. This is physically incapable of ever being passably mapped to the standard controller's 5 mediocre analog inputs (which are grouped in sets of 2 plus 2 half axes to make matters even worse). Even if we were to cut out both rotation groupings, you still have 6 highly precise analog axes to contend with. It's just a mess of a problem. And that's before we add any additional buttons or analog axes that the tracked controllers might have into the equation.

Except the DS4 is a 6DOF controller. Yes, moving from two, well-tracked points to a single, not-so-well-tracked point would be problematic, but I don't think it would be nearly as troublesome as trying to go from 6DOF*2 to KBM, and that's before we add the DS4's additional buttons and analog axes to the equation.

 

[odhiex]

I can't see Move 2 coming until PS5-equivalent/PSVR2. They'd be silly do something like that midcycle.

Hmmm.. Does it silly like the Wii-mote to Wii motion + (later packed in as the standard Wii-mote) ? Or will it be like Oculus using the Xbox one gamepad while developing the Oculus touch?

I don't think refreshing 6-7 years old peripheral will be a silly "Move" , to be honest with you.