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Star Citizen Backer Successfully Gets $2550 Refund

shootfast

Member
SCRUM is fun! Development and requirements change all the time when it comes to software. What usually doesn't change if you have a paying customer, is the delivery date. :)

Last Guardian says high, Mass effect Andromeda says high. Never done games development ever but they seem to me they miss their deadlines like all the time now but they turn out fine. It seems to me it's just a normal game but unlike every other game that delays where everyone says it's fine cause we'll get a better game. The sky is falling, relax they have $117million to finish the game, does it matter it takes longer?
 

mtodavk

Member
Game a total scam.

DayZ comparison is a bit off tho. DayZ had a successful and feature complete mod to base off of. The devs are just incompetent and can't set priorities.

Dude, have you played DayZ .60? Game performance just increased by 100% if not more. New player controller in the pipeline, new animations, Arma 3 sound engine...if you aren't up to date on an early access game, please keep your thoughts to yourself.

FFS man, they're rewriting an entire outdated game engine.
 

Sylas

Member
Last Guardian says high, Mass effect Andromeda says high. Never done games development ever but they seem to me they miss their deadlines like all the time now but they turn out fine. It seems to me it's just a normal game but unlike every other game that delays where everyone says it's fine cause we'll get a better game. The sky is falling, relax they have $117million to finish the game, does it matter it takes longer?

B-both of those games have been derided for extremely long development cycles or not showing us great progress. The Last Guardian in particular. People assumed for a long time that it was canceled.

Andromeda was announced... last year, I wanna say?
 

Mifec

Member
Dude, have you played DayZ .60? Game performance just increased by 100% if not more. New player controller in the pipeline, new animations, Arma 3 sound engine...if you aren't up to date on an early access game, please keep your thoughts to yourself.

FFS man, they're rewriting an entire outdated game engine.

DayZ Standalone is never getting a full releasel and Rocket is a legit scammer who went off to make a new game to scam people on, I'm pretty sure that's obv by now. Star Citizen is taking long to dev but I'm sure it's gonna come out sooner than DayZ. So I agree with you.
 

Jackpot

Banned
I would like to know what is screaming development hell to you?

Um, massively sprawling goals, feature creep up the wazoo and several years overdue? Even if you personally don't believe them you can't be so intellectually lazy as to not recognise that other people will view it that way.

But that's the "circle the wagons!" mentality for you.

FFS man, they're rewriting an entire outdated game engine.

I've seen DayZ posters keep saying "but they're having to rewrite a really rickety engine" as an excuse, as if that's somehow meant to make people optimistic for its future.
 

Zalusithix

Member
Um, massively sprawling goals, feature creep up the wazoo and several years overdue? Even if you personally don't believe them you can't be so intellectually lazy as to not recognise that other people will view it that way.

Please mention every instance of feature creep you're referring to. If there's so much of it, surely you can rattle off a list.
 

mtodavk

Member
I've seen DayZ posters keep saying "but they're having to rewrite a really rickety engine" as an excuse, as if that's somehow meant to make people optimistic for its future.

Well like I said, .60 was the first taste of all the under the hood work they've put in over the months and it blew everyone's expectations out of the water....so yeah, I'd say I'm optimistic.
 

soulluos

Member
4-5 years
$117 million dollars
missed deadline after missed deadline
and where are we?

Pw476PC.jpg

I think we got ourselves a scam here.
 

Sylas

Member
I think we got ourselves a scam here.

I will agree with the one poster that mentioned that once they get the star systems, er, system finished that part of the development will basically be done. So the 1% is a little disingenuous unless they mentioned every system will be bespoke.
 

Chipopo

Banned
You mean prototype in base version of CryEngine made by Chris Roberts and 3 other people?
Real development started like a month or two after kickstarter campaign has finished.
Kickstarter campaign finished on 19.11.2012. They had 8 people in December 2012 in CIG.

So it's 5 years if you include the initial development stage and 3.5 if you start from the kickstarter date. ok. I'm not sure this really paints a much prettier picture.
 
So stuff like FPS mode not part of the kickstarter? I suppose if another party funded that component then I wouldn't think the backer would be entitled to a refund. However if the crowdsourcing funds are being used for content not part of the kickstarter then I'd expect a refund.
 

KKRT00

Member
So it's 5 years if you include the initial development stage and 3.5 if you start from the kickstarter date. ok. I'm not sure this really paints a much prettier picture.

There is big different between having 1.5 year of extra development time when you have full team vs 1.5 year time of prototyping something 'in a garage' for kickstarter.

Dunno why i'm even answering to you. The chart is bullshit and your post history looks like some alt account of a person that got recently banned.

---
So stuff like FPS mode not part of the kickstarter? I suppose if another party funded that component then I wouldn't think the backer would be entitled to a refund. However if the crowdsourcing funds are being used for content not part of the kickstarter then I'd expect a refund.

FPS part was part of the kickstarter.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=158543545&postcount=911
 

Deadstar

Member
This game isn't a scam it's just ambitious. What I've played so far is awesome (not counting the bugs). You have to build a strong foundation before adding content to the game and it appears that is what they've been doing.
 

~Cross~

Member
You mean prototype in base version of CryEngine made by Chris Roberts and 3 other people?
Real development started like a month or two after kickstarter campaign has finished.
Kickstarter campaign finished on 19.11.2012. CIG had 8 people in December 2012.

If you only count a games progress when full production starts then no one would be making fun of FFXV and people would say that fallout 4 was made in a year and a half.

Ive honestly seen some people say that SC started production like a year and half ago and then immediately say that Elite Dangerous started production like 15 years ago because thats how long the engine has been in iterated on or something equally stupid.
 

KKRT00

Member
If you only count a games progress when full production starts then no one would be making fun of FFXV and people would say that fallout 4 was made in a year and a half.

Ive honestly seen some people say that SC started production like a year and half ago and then immediately say that Elite Dangerous started production like 15 years ago because thats how long the engine has been in iterated on or something equally stupid.
But i didnt said that it started when it entered in full production.
8 people finishing kickstarter campaign is not a development team for game of scope of Star Citizen + S42. Lets be honest here.
There is also a difference between making a company from scratch like CIG to having an existing development studio like Frontier Developments or Square Enix.
 

Abounder

Banned
I only expect to see a short single player campaign, everything else is way too ambitious. Shame it took so much paperwork to get a refund.
 

Nessus

Member
Backed at $30. Was a little disheartened last night when, after reading about this player getting a refund, I *still* couldn't find any solid information on when I'll be able to play Squadron 42.

Would have thought that after they went ahead and announced the cast, released a trailer, etc. we'd have a rough estimate for a release date, but even on the fan wikis all the quotes about potential release dates are from like 2014 or earlier.

I don't regret backing.. yet. But it'd be nice if I saw some indications that all these disparate modules are actually starting to come together. I have no interest in buggy, incomplete early access or betas, I just want to play the single player campaign that motivated me to support this game in the first place.
 

KKRT00

Member
Backed at $30. Was a little disheartened last night when, after reading about this player getting a refund, I *still* couldn't find any solid information on when I'll be able to play Squadron 42.

Would have thought that after they went ahead and announced the cast, released a trailer, etc. we'd have a rough estimate for a release date, but even on the fan wikis all the quotes about potential release dates are from like 2014 or earlier.

I don't regret backing.. yet. But it'd be nice if I saw some indications that all these disparate modules are actually starting to come together. I have no interest in buggy, incomplete early access or betas, I just want to play the single player campaign that motivated me to support this game in the first place.

For Squadron 42 the plan is for late 2016 release. But there is quite high possibility that it can be delayed few months.
Q1 2017 is probably more reasonable estimation than December 2016. We will get exact date for sure on CitizenCon (9.10.2016).
 
Please mention every instance of feature creep you're referring to. If there's so much of it, surely you can rattle off a list.

Basically all the stretch goals, added concept ships and all the Wave 3 ships that have entire careers and types of gameplay associated with them:

Squadron42
  • 5 extra missions for Squadron 42 - $3 million tier
  • 10 Extra missions for Squadron 42 - $4 million tier
  • 5 more missions for Squadron 42 - $6 million tier
  • Professional motion capture for the Squadron 42 cutscenes - $5 million
  • Celebrity voice actors for SQ42 - $6 million tier
  • Squadron 42 will feature a full orchestral score - $6 million
  • The first Squadron 42 mission disk, Behind Enemy Lines - $8 million
  • Cloud Imperium Games will build their own mocap studio - $10 million
  • Build professional sound studios - $14 million
  • Facial Capture System - $22 million
  • Enhanced Mission Design for Squadron 42 - $30 million
LOL at planning on building a AAA action game with celebrity actors for only $6 million

Persistent Universe
  • The Persistent Universe with 30 star systems
  • $3.1M: Odin System
  • $3.2M: Tyrol System
  • $3.3M: Kellog System
  • $3.4M: Goss System
  • $3.5M: Orion System
  • $3.6M: Ellis System
  • $3.7M: Cathcart System
  • $3.8M: Tal System
  • $3.9M: Geddon System
  • $4.0M: Chronos System
  • 10 More Star Systems - $4.5 million tier
  • 20 More Star Systems - $5 million tier
  • 30 More Star Systems, for a total of 100 - $6 million tier
  • Extra Landing Zone on Earth
  • Exclusive star system for pre-launch backers.
The game called "Star Citizen" was actually a stretch goal to Squadron 42. Basically building a massive MMO without expanding the budget at all. And then it expanded to three times its size over the course of the campaign.

Ships
  • Anvil Gladiator - $2.5 million tier
  • MISC Starfarer - $3.5 million tier
  • Cockpit decorations - $3.75 million tier
  • Class I Repair Bot - $4 million tier
  • Idris class corvette - $4.5 million tier
  • Origin M50 - $4.5 million tier
  • Drake Interplanetary Caterpillar - $4.5 million tier
  • Bengal Carrier - $5.5 million
  • Xian Scout - $23 million
  • Drake Herald - $35 million
  • MISC Hull A - $34 Million
  • MISC Hull B - $34 Million
  • MISC Hull C - $34 Million
  • MISC Hull D - $34 Million
  • MISC Hull E - $34 Million
  • Anvil Carrack - $35 million
  • Aegis Surveyor - $32 million
  • RSI Orion - $31 million
  • Origin 890 JUMP - $30 million
  • New Starter Ship - $29 million
  • Banu Merchantman - $27 million
  • Gladius - $42 million
  • MISC Endeavor-class Research Platform - $57 million
  • Anvil Aerospace Crucible - $59 million
  • Aegis Vanguard-class Twin-Engine Deep Space Fighter - $60 million
  • Esperia Prowler - $61 million
  • Genesis-class Starliner - $62 million
  • MISC Reliant - $63 million
  • Merlin
  • Sabre
  • Dragonfly
  • Vanduul Scythe
  • Vanduul Blade
  • Vanduul Void Bomber
  • Additional Ship Class: Destroyers. - $4.5 million tier
  • Additional Ship Class, the frigate.
  • Additional ship class, the battlecruiser.
  • Additional ship class, the escort.
This doesn't even include the new ones like the small mining ship, or the four variants each of them has because fuck that I'll be here all day.

Careers and Gameplay
  • Salvage Career
  • Refuelling Gameplay
  • Info runner Career
  • Science System
  • Space Farming Gameplay
  • Drink Mixing Gameplay
  • Entertainment Console Repairs
  • Overclocker Career
  • Ship Racing Career
  • Sataball Game and Career
  • Space Lawyer
I think I'm missing some of the ship-specific careers. Each of these is supposed to be so fleshed out and deep that you could play only them never get bored, or something. They promise stuff like "Galaxy changing endgames".

Features
  • Vanduul trading posts - $4.5 million tier
  • hidden smuggler asteroids - $4.5 million tier
  • Extended hardcore flight sim controller support: Flight Chairs, multiple monitors, Track-IR, MFD (Multi Function Displays) and more on launch.
  • Additional alien race, the Kr’Thak. - $5 million
  • Professional mod tools will be provided free to all players - $5 million tier
  • Drake Interplanetary Cutlass - $5 million tier
  • Alien Derelict base type - $5 million tier
  • Melee combat - $5 million tier
  • heavy weapons - $5 million tier
  • suit HUD options - $5 million tier
  • Tablet companion application - $5 million tier
  • Command and Control Center - command a fleet $6 million tier
  • Ability to control your ship from your bed
  • Public Transportation System
  • Procedural Generation R&D Team
  • Hibernation Mode
  • Updated Observist Guide
  • 3D holographic map room
  • Feature-length “Behind the Scenes of Star Citizen” documentary film.
  • Manage Space Stations
  • First person combat on select lawless planets... take the fight to the ground!
  • Alien Languages
  • Web-based Known Universe Map
  • Pets - $64 million
There's probably a whole bunch more stuff they've said yes to in Ten for the Chairman, I think the only thing he ever said no to for 10 questions in 100 episodes was space farming cows and cutting them up, so that's another 999 right there. He was even saying yes to crazy stuff like finding an unknown alien race and teaching them a new language and cultural concepts.

Worth noting that's all in addition to this stuff they need just to make it to launch: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitize...nedup_list_of_features_needed_between_24_and/
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Plenty of crowdfunded games have much more openness than CIG, like this: https://trello.com/b/yxoJrFgP/subnautica-development

Subnautica isn't crowdfunded

LOL at planning on building a AAA action game with celebrity actors for only $6 million

The point of a stretch goal isn't to say that's how much the thing costs, it's to say "that's the point at which we feel comfortable putting resources towards this". Sometimes that means the stretch goal """costs"""" a lot more than marginally adding the feature, other times it means the stretch goal is just a point at which they feel they have enough momentum to get outside funding or that inside funding is coming fast enough that they expect to hit their projection. Crowdfunding accounting isn't about you getting to dictate where every dollar goes, it's about you getting the product you funded. It's certainly the case that you can chew out CIG for their schedule, or their choice to grow the game's scope as money came in rather than release a small product and iterate, but the evidence you're presenting kinda feels pretty limp. If you are a backer, I highly recommend you pursue a refund to the best of your ability.
 

Stiler

Member
Great, now everyone request refunds and bankrupt CIG and then lets all complain when it goes belly up and they can't finish it!

(that was sarcasm btw).

I don't get some people, crowdfunding a game, especially one like SC that has made so much more then originally planned (and thus became a much much larger scoped game) you have to understand the risks. The fact it isn't going to be released like originally planned when it had no fps mechanic or space>landing type of things, etc.

I mean, I would understand IF CIG was constantly "silent" and were showing ZERO progress being made on the game or anything, but they aren't. They constantly (probably more then any other crowdfunded game I've been part of) update their fanbase on things they are working on and the progress of things. From all of their shows like Around the Verse/Bugsmashers, etc to the constant presentations they do on the game at various game shows and the annual event they have.

To me it sounds like someone who spent way more then they should have and just ended up deciding they wanted their money back.
 

Jackpot

Banned
Basically all the stretch goals, added concept ships and all the Wave 3 ships that have entire careers and types of gameplay associated with them:

  • 5 extra missions for Squadron 42 - $3 million tier
  • 10 Extra missions for Squadron 42 - $4 million tier
    .
    .
    .


  • Hush now.

    I mean CIG did themselves acknowledge it.

    While a substantive part of the promised gameplay is now available, we acknowledge that delivery of some game elements has been delayed due to expansion of Star Citizen’s scope.

    But they're clearly in cahoots with the SC haters.

    That sunk cost fallacy makes people really defensive.
 

KKRT00

Member
LOL at planning on building a AAA action game with celebrity actors for only $6 million

This is last time i'm answering to your post and i hope you stop spreading false information about this game further.
Chris Roberts, since the beginning of the campaign, stated that backers money are not the only money he will be getting. The campaign created to show stakeholders that its worth putting money on this game.
Fortunately for CR campaign was so successful, that he didnt need external money, so development was and is completely independent.

We have investors that have agreed to contribute the balance we need to complete this game as long as we can validate that there is a demand for a high end PC space game. By meeting or surpassing our target on Kickstarter you tell the world that you want a PC based Space Sim and allow us to make this game.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description
 
They don't want to finish the game. As long as backers are spending money on it, they will keep riding the train.

After that, won't they just give up and release what they completed?
 
The point of a stretch goal isn't to say that's how much the thing costs, it's to say "that's the point at which we feel comfortable putting resources towards this". Sometimes that means the stretch goal """costs"""" a lot more than marginally adding the feature, other times it means the stretch goal is just a point at which they feel they have enough momentum to get outside funding or that inside funding is coming fast enough that they expect to hit their projection. Crowdfunding accounting isn't about you getting to dictate where every dollar goes, it's about you getting the product you funded. It's certainly the case that you can chew out CIG for their schedule, or their choice to grow the game's scope as money came in rather than release a small product and iterate, but the evidence you're presenting kinda feels pretty limp. If you are a backer, I highly recommend you pursue a refund to the best of your ability.

I think you missed the point there, that item didn't cost $6 million, at that point the entire campaign was $6 million, for a AAA action game with celebrity actors and an MMO more ambitious than anything ever attempted. If the project hadn't broken every crowdfunding record and climbed to $100 million, it would have collapsed out of the gate.

Chris Roberts was so opposed to publishers that he named a shitty manufacturer EA in game because of their "crime" of making him put a game out on time without massively expanding the scope.

If you consider stretch goals defined years ago as feature creep, then we're not on the same planet, let alone the same page.

I put in all that effort for you, I expected a better defence than that.

This is last time i'm answering to your post and i hope you stop spreading false information about this game further.
Chris Roberts, since the beginning of the campaign, stated that backers money are not the only money he will be getting. The campaign created to show stakeholders that its worth putting money on this game.
Fortunately for CR campaign was so successful, that he didnt need external money, so development was and is completely independent.

I think they did actually take some investment - there was a guy on Something Awful who dropped like 250k on the project as part of a VC firm and had pictures of him with Ortwyn and co. They bought them all out when it hit like 60 million though. The amounts invested were small, even with the outside funding, if they'd only have gotten $6 million or $25 million or $50 million, there's no way the project would have survived.
 

KKRT00

Member
The Wave 3 stuff was only last year. Every new concept ship they put out is feature creep, every new thing they answer yes to is feature creep. You just want to dodge that the scope has expanded massively.

Are you the person who thinks that when game needs more programmers then artists can be programmers too or game needs more animators then programmer can be an animator?

CIG has a team of people who design ships. They are different people, with different skill set than people who create ships (model, texture, program, animate).
The people who design ships need a work too, they cant go and start animating ships or write shaders.
 

Rncewind

Member
Well the Movies that the guy produced sucked pretty bad (the punisher lol) and the company got sued for unreleased films


but im sure he is he genius and so on
 
Are you the person who thinks that when game needs more programmers then artists can be programmers too or game needs more animators then programmer can be an animator?

CIG has a team of people who design ships. They are different people, with different skill set than people who create ships (model, texture, program, animate).
The people who design ships need a work too, they cant go and start animating ships or write shaders.

You missed the point, the concept sales for those ships was last year. In addition to a ship model, each of them had completely new gameplay features that needed adding to the game and had never been mentioned before - drink mixing, repairing in-flight entertainment, science system, space farming, etc. And all of these were supposed to be done in crazy amounts of detail, just look at the webpages for them, they're fucking mental

The Organics Module

The Organics Module allows for various forms of plant life to be grown in a tightly controlled environment and harvested for profit. The basic requirements for farming are soil, fertilizer, seeds, and water, all of which can be purchased at garden supply stores that will be located in most major landing zones or, in some cases, mined or otherwise extracted from the environment.

Farming is a labor intensive process that requires a fairly meticulous attention to detail. There are two parts to the basic puzzle: ascertaining exactly what a particular plant species requires in order to thrive, and giving that to them at the appropriate time. The variables include the quality of the soil, the type of fertilizer, the temperature, the amount of water, and the type and quantity of radiation.

An Organics Module consists of two Biodomes, each of which consists of multiple discrete sections – gardening beds – where different species can be planted. Each section has growth lights above it, and a command console that allows the type and quantity of radiation to be specified and the application therefore automated. The temperature of a Biodome – but not the individual sections – can be specified, so if multiple species are grown alongside one another it’s best to ensure that they have similar tolerances with regard to temperature. The application of water, fertilizer, and the harvesting of the plants is done manually.

Many of the sturdier plant species will grow and prosper in standard, run-of-the-mill soil with a basic nitrogen/phosphorus/potassium fertilizer, a temperate climate, a moderate amount of water, and 8-10 hours per day of standard radiation from the growth lights. In order to reach their full potential, more exotic – and lucrative – species may require a higher quality soil, a specialized type of fertilizer, warmer or cooler temperatures, more or less water, and a particular type and quantity of radiation.

Each species of plant is effectively a puzzle, and the job of a farmer is to figure out the optimal solution in order to produce the highest quality plants at the lowest price. Most plants are valued for their end result – the fruit or vegetables that they produce, their use as an herb or spice, their fragrance, or a medical compound that can be extracted. Some, however, are valued simply for their appearance. While some of these outputs can be preserved for extended durations, others have a very short shelf life, and must be delivered to their destination soon after having been extracted or else their value will diminish appreciably.

A productive farmer that focuses on the basics will often be able to earn a solid living, but the most profitable opportunities in this field will revolve around figuring out how to grow more exotic species that are notoriously difficult to reproduce, but for which there is high demand and very limited supply. Attaining such mastery will not come easily or cheaply, as short of procuring the elusive and expensive seeds oneself the repeated trial-and-error sessions that will be necessary will cost a small fortune.

Features inevitably evolve over the course of development, and one of the more interesting ones currently under consideration is whether or not some sources of radiation – critical for the development of some of the more valuable types of plant life – might be cost prohibitive to artificially generate, and thus players might have to seek out natural sources within a given solar system. Some species might respond favorably to being bathed in a star’s corona, which would tax the shielding of a ship to its limit, and others to the soft glow of a nebula, which would likely attract others that would seek to control such a valuable piece of real estate.

The Discovery Module

The Discovery Module is geared towards the aspiring astronomer. It contains a powerful 16-meter telescope mounted on a rotatable base that is capable of scanning the Heavens in the infrared, visible, and gamma spectra as well as dual ejection ports for an array of long-range probes. Wayward comets, asteroids fields rich in valuable ore, derelict ships worth a fortune to a salvager, and primordial black holes that are the Holy Grail of scientific research are just a few of the things that a patient observer might eventually discover.

Detection of something of interest typically consists of selecting an area of the sky and slowly searching for anomalies. An object that appears to be nothing more than another in a dense sea of stars might eventually reveal itself to be something different via its ever-so-gradual motion against the static backdrop. Alternatively, an object might emit a radiation signature that suggests something out of the ordinary, or in the case of a large field of asteroids its most detectable aspect might be the fact that it blocks a portion of a background star’s radiation, which might be noticed by the slight twinkling it imparts upon the light from that particular star.

Increasing the magnification of the telescope can often help ascertain what an object might be if not always what it definitively is. Such adjustments, however, take several seconds to perform and, additionally, any increase in magnification implies a commensurate decrease in the field of view, which means that scanning the entirety of the sky at a high magnification isn’t particularly feasible within a reasonable period of time. Thus, the ability to discern subtle clues at a higher level of magnification that indicate a fair probability of finding something of interest if one were to probe deeper into the cosmic tapestry with the Endeavor’s telescope is one of the most valuable abilities a Discoverer can learn. When coupled with a methodical approach to analyzing a volume of space, a regular stream of discoveries – and a steady source of income – is all but assured.

While some objects – comets in particular, with their long and wispy tails – can be definitively identified if viewed at sufficient magnification, others will require a long-range probe to be dispatched in order to attain such certainty. Once a positive identification has been made, a Point of Interest representing the discovery will appear on the player’s navigational map of the solar system. At that point, the information can be shared with other players or sold to an information broker.

All that massive feature creep for something that only one ship out of 100 can do, and only when equipped with a special module just for that purpose. And that's for each of the Wave 3 ships, in addition to all of the stuff in the original scope that's not done, the stretch goals promised by the Kickstarter and over the two years since.
 
Are you the person who thinks that when game needs more programmers then artists can be programmers too or game needs more animators then programmer can be an animator?

CIG has a team of people who design ships. They are different people, with different skill set than people who create ships (model, texture, program, animate).
The people who design ships need a work too, they cant go and start animating ships or write shaders.

Yes they can. Designing 3x the amount of ships than your pipeline can handle in 5 years is a HUGE mismanagement. If your artists aren't versatile and only specialize in 3D modeling, then you only need one or two artists who concept and model ships and more people who can handle shaders, rigs and animation.

But shader artists or animators aren't going to wow people by constantly pumping out concept ships that aren't even game-ready for promotional purposes.
 

Zalusithix

Member
I put in all that effort for you, I expected a better defence than that.

I'm sure you enjoyed finding everything to prove your point. =P

That said, it doesn't take an essay to counter it. I simply don't view stretch goals, particularly those that have been defined for years as feature creep. They're certainly not worth mentioning years down the line and tens of millions of pledging later.

If stretch goals defined early on are feature creep, then the vast majority of crowdfunded projects are victims of feature creep. As such, I seriously hope you don't crowdfund anything.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
I put in all that effort for you, I expected a better defence than that.

Kind of an important detail that the last stretch goal was set at $65 million 18 months ago and funding is currently at $117 million...

You're talking about the Endeavor which was the $57 million goal. That thing is pretty much scope creep incarnate, but it's not like it was a surprise in the context of the post-KS campaign.
 
Kind of an important detail that the last stretch goal was set at $65 million 18 months ago and funding is currently at $117 million...

You're talking about the Endeavor which was the $57 million goal. That thing is pretty much scope creep incarnate, but it's not like it was a surprise in the context of the post-KS campaign.

The ship itself was the $57 million goal, this was the entirety of the Endeavour info when that $57 million goal was funded:

The MISC Endeavor is the company’s most prestigious ship: a dedicated research platform capable of carrying a dozen different space science packages, running the gamut from advanced long-range scanners for jump point identification to additional shielding for near-stellar corona research. Externally, the Endeavor is dotted with sensor hardpoints; internally, the main compartment is centered on a large research laboratory which can be configured for use by a wide range of scientific disciplines. The Endeavor’s main compartment is modular, allowing an alternate configuration as a Hope-class floating hospital. This variant is employed by the UEE and other organizations as battlefield support, capable of getting Marines and pilots back to the battle as quickly as possible! When outfitted as a hospital, the Endeavor’s docking bay is capable of maintaining a single Cutlass Red ambulance. The Endeavor has also found its way into the service of less reputable organizations, where it can has been modified for everything from narcotics production to black market surgery.

There's not a single mention of farming there, so saying it was all defined when they did that stretch goal is very revisionist. In 2015, there was massive scope creep, even though they stopped the stretch goals a year before. And it's not just the Endeavour, the Genesis, Orion, Carrack, Caterpillar and so on are all like that.

If stretch goals defined early on are feature creep, then the vast majority of crowdfunded projects are victims of feature creep. As such, I seriously hope you don't crowdfund anything.

Stretch goals are considered feature and scope creep for every Kickstartered project, yes. Look at any interview with a crowdfunded project and they'll talk about stretch goals and controlling scope.

I don't see how "it's been years" matters, the original scope is the original scope, anything added is scope creep. Are you seriously trying to argue the scope hasn't increased at all?
 

KKRT00

Member
Yes they can. Designing 3x the amount of ships than your pipeline can handle in 5 years is a HUGE mismanagement. If your artists aren't versatile and only specialize in 3D modeling, then you only need one or two artists who concept and model ships and more people who can handle shaders, rigs and animation.

But shader artists or animators aren't going to wow people by constantly pumping out concept ships that aren't even game-ready for promotional purposes.
What 5 years?
I dont think you understand how complex those ships designs are.

Star Citizen is not game that will be launched and forgotten, but MMO that will be constatly updated. Guys from a design team need a work and Star Citizen need more ships in the end. If you dont like this process, than do not buy into those designs. Its really simple.

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Is this an image of development progress, or just things in the beta? Has CIG not done any work on the trading or mining systems at all?

Playable in public alpha for backers. Of course CIG did some work on those systems internally.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
The ship itself was the $57 million goal, this was the entirety of the Endeavour info when that $57 million goal was funded:



There's not a single mention of farming there, so saying it was all defined when they did that stretch goal is very revisionist. In 2015, there was massive scope creep, even though they stopped the stretch goals a year before. And it's not just the Endeavour, the Genesis, Orion, Carrack, Caterpillar and so on are all like that.



Stretch goals are considered feature and scope creep for every Kickstartered project, yes. Look at any interview with a crowdfunded project and they'll talk about stretch goals and controlling scope.

I don't see how "it's been years" matters, the original scope is the original scope, anything added is scope creep. Are you seriously trying to argue the scope hasn't increased at all?

"platform capable of carrying a dozen different space science packages"
Very rough count:
1. advanced long-range scanners for jump point identification
2. additional shielding for near-stellar corona research
3. externally, the Endeavor is dotted with sensor hardpoints
4. internally, the main compartment is centered on a large research laboratory which can be configured for use by a wide range of scientific disciplines.
5. The Endeavor’s main compartment is modular, allowing an alternate configuration as a Hope-class floating hospital
6. When outfitted as a hospital, the Endeavor’s docking bay is capable of maintaining a single Cutlass Red ambulance
7. The Endeavor has also found its way into the service of less reputable organizations, where it can has been modified for everything from narcotics production to
8. black market surgery.

So that leaves room for 4 or so?

I'm all for criticism, but there's enough in the project to pick on without needing to stretch like that.
 

Megalo

Member
I guess we just have to deal with the fact that every Star Citizen thread is gonna be a clusterfuck. Feels bad for the hundreds of devs working on it, I hope they don't lurk around here.

On topic: good for him.
 
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