• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Xbox Project Scorpio Announced - 6TFlops, 320GB/s - Fall 2017

Status
Not open for further replies.
6 Tflops looks cool today but in fall 2017 , 6Tflops looks crap ... :(

I dont believe in what hes saying about game in 4K smooth experience... No chance for 4K/60 fps with a 6Tflops GPU , not with AAA graphics... And is useless for 30 fps ... 1080p/60fps high picture quality >4k/30fps medium picture quality...

Sorry if im not clear , i try to speak english without a translator... xD

6TF will look like crap in a year from now? How is that even possible with consoles being less then 2TF in 2016?
 

gamz

Member
6 Tflops looks cool today but in fall 2017 , 6Tflops looks crap ... :(

I dont believe in what hes saying about game in 4K smooth experience... No chance for 4K/60 fps with a 6Tflops GPU , not with AAA graphics... And is useless for 30 fps ... 1080p/60fps high picture quality >4k/30fps medium picture quality...

Sorry if im not clear , i try to speak english without a translator... xD

lol

How do you feel about the current Xbox and PS4?
 
I don't say that no games does this but I don't think it's a problem at all. Also, how big are the games that have optional packs and how big are the extensions?

Far Cry Primal's is 3.5GB

Rainbow Six Seige is 7.5GB

GRID Autosport is 5GB

Skyrim has an offial one as well 4.4GB
Plus Skyrim Enhanced edition will be a free upgrade to PC players with all DLC, so I guess that counts too, no idea what that filesize will be though.

Shadow of Mordor and Sleeping Dogs have them as well, but I'm not sure of their filesizes.


These are what I just found with a quick Google search, it's not a comprehensive list.
 

kingwingin

Member
phil spencer said that if a game has scaling resolution that when played on Scorpio it will bump it to its max with the extra power.

Would that also be the case with framerate?
 

LordOfChaos

Member
phil spencer said that if a game has scaling resolution that when played on Scorpio it will bump it to its max with the extra power.

Would that also be the case with framerate?

No. Most games are locked at 30 to prevent screen tearing, more power would still lock it at 30, and depending on the processor it may not be enough to boost everything to a locked 60 instead. It would be up to the developer to patch it at any rate.

Unless the game had an unlocked framerate, but I'm not sure how many do.
 

Spladam

Member
I'm not sure why stream processor count is an interesting metric besides comparing within one architecture. Nvidia has been favouring fatter GPU cores that do more and take more space and thus have a lower count, AMD has been favouring the opposite, they're just different ways of getting at an end goal. In past architectures Nvidias used to be odd things like 4 thin, 1 "fat" core, and things like that.

This is completely unlike a 4 core CPU doing the same performance as an 8 core, as GPUs are "embarrassingly parallel" devices and don't have such issues scaling performance by core count.

As for the higher on paper flops - that's directly BECAUSE of the higher shader core count. It's just a mathematical statement, nothing more, (stream processors) X (frequency in GHz) X 2 (operations per core per clock) = GFLOPS for AMD architectures. It doesn't denote performance. Again, I never got why "Nvidia does more with less flops" should be a particularly interesting statement. What's the price, and what's the performance, in the end. One could just as well say "for gaming performance X, AMD has more flops than Nvidia", equally meaningless.

Now, it's less efficient, yes, but I'd be interested in how much of that is GloFos shitty process compared to TSMC. AMD was legally obligated to have a certain number of wafers ordered from Glofo, so they chose the mid range 480 to fit the bill, while higher end cards will be TSMC and should improve the efficiency equation.

Great freaking post. Needed to be said.
 

kingwingin

Member
No. Most games are locked at 30 to prevent screen tearing, more power would still lock it at 30, and depending on the processor it may not be enough to boost everything to a locked 60 instead. It would be up to the developer to patch it at any rate.

Unless the game had an unlocked framerate, but I'm not sure how many do.
sorry. I meant like if a game is meant to be 60 but actually runs at around 50, would the scorpio instantly bump it to 60.

It makes me want to invest more into my xbox one if it will help my games run better
 

AmyS

Member
or play 35 player split screen on one TV based on the original apparantly being 512x384 res.

And in-game graphic fidelity would look like this render.

qyvq9bs.jpg
 

c0de

Member
Far Cry Primal's is 3.5GB

Rainbow Six Seige is 7.5GB

GRID Autosport is 5GB

Skyrim has an offial one as well 4.4GB
Plus Skyrim Enhanced edition will be a free upgrade to PC players with all DLC, so I guess that counts too, no idea what that filesize will be though.

Shadow of Mordor and Sleeping Dogs have them as well, but I'm not sure of their filesizes.


These are what I just found with a quick Google search, it's not a comprehensive list.

Thanks but how big are the games without the additional downloads and would the games than still fit on a bluray-disc?
 
sorry. I meant like if a game is meant to be 60 but actually runs at around 50, would the scorpio instantly bump it to 60.

It makes me want to invest more into my xbox one if it will help my games run better

This is something I have wondered as well. I don't think it's been asked or answered, but I would expect it would help those framerates maintain their set maximum more often.
 

LordOfChaos

Member
sorry. I meant like if a game is meant to be 60 but actually runs at around 50, would the scorpio instantly bump it to 60.

It makes me want to invest more into my xbox one if it will help my games run better

Ah, then I'm guessing very possibly, unless unpatched games make the Scorpio behave just like an XBO to ensure perfect compatibility. If it can run unhindered at its full clocks in unmatched XBO games, it should improve situations like that.
 
sorry. I meant like if a game is meant to be 60 but actually runs at around 50, would the scorpio instantly bump it to 60.

It makes me want to invest more into my xbox one if it will help my games run better

I would like to think that is very possible. On GiantBomb's E3 Livestream, Phil Spencer said that the Scorpio could definitely help with the dynamic resolution in games like Halo 5. It'd still be there, but the resolution would probably stay at 1080p most of the time of even all the time. Since the resolution changes when performance would usually drop, I think what you are asking for is very likely.
 

Gamezone

Gold Member
Thanks but how big are the games without the additional downloads and would the games than still fit on a bluray-disc?

Some games are close to the 50 GB limit without these extra downloads. Elder Scrolls Online is an MMO, but was 65 GB. Quantum Break had to skip every live cutscene to fit. Halo MCC's multiplayer didn't fit. So far everything is playable without these downloads, but it's only getting worse, and the launch consoles are limiting games from being released on 500 GB UHD discs, and that worries me.
 

anothertech

Member
Isn't it simply just that Nvidia is able to clock their GPUs much, much higher, which leads to their lower number of cores simply operating much faster than AMD's more numerous, but still notably slower Stream Processors? I guess in the end it kinda amounts to the same thing as you said, but that's how you usually see Nvidia cards at lower tflops ratings outperforming AMD cards that, by their mathematical makeup, appear superior in the flops department.

Also, Scorpio is more than likely using Vega, which is essentially assured to be more advanced than Polaris. It's also a chip that is apart of an entirely new graphics ip generation for AMD (v9.0). as compared to polaris which I believe is very much apart of the same generation of graphics IP as Hawaii. So while the flops rating isn't very far removed from what you see for a fully enabled RX 480, if Scorpio has Vega it's assured to be more capable in ways that go beyond just flops. Scorpio is also expected to have almost 100GB/s more memory bandwidth. Don't forget that.
So, are you thinking Scorpio will be able to do native 4K gaming? I wonder how far some posters think the Scorpio will actually go performance wise.

I think 4K gaming won't really be a thing until xbone2/Ps5, personally. Devs are mostly talking about advanced scaling tech, with massive AA techniques implemented even with all that power, it seems most believe it would be a waste of resources to do native 4K rendering.

Even 4K 30 would be a waste of those resources I feel.
 

cackhyena

Member
I think the capability of 4K probably means good super sampling as the best case scenario when devs finally decide what to do with the thing.
 
So just like I predicted, scorpio is using Polaris according to this article. I'm not surprised as it makes the most sense and it's likely either the rx490 or a lesser version of Polaris. By the end of 2017, that will be utterly disappointing.
 

eifer

Member
6 Tflops looks cool today but in fall 2017 , 6Tflops looks crap ... :(

I dont believe in what hes saying about game in 4K smooth experience... No chance for 4K/60 fps with a 6Tflops GPU , not with AAA graphics... And is useless for 30 fps ... 1080p/60fps high picture quality >4k/30fps medium picture quality...

Sorry if im not clear , i try to speak english without a translator... xD

I really doubt games will be in native 4k. I imagine they'll be around 2k+ and upscaled.
 

Sydle

Member
So just like I predicted, scorpio is using Polaris according to this article. I'm not surprised as it makes the most sense and it's likely either the rx490 or a lesser version of Polaris. By the end of 2017, that will be utterly disappointing.

Are you referring to the bullet point where they say it could be powered by a 14nm Polaris?
 
just for the LOL.

Fall 2008:

41ZxyXR.jpg

I had a hd4870

the hd 7770 in xbox one with the same 1.2TF is a good 50 percent faster than the 4870 was.

TF numbers aren't comparable between different architectures.

chart.png


The hd 5870 was a 2.7TF gpu on paper, yet it was about 60 percent better than a hd 4870 , the hd 7850 was a 1.75TF gpu yet it was 50 percent faster than the 2.7TF 5870

Only compare TF numbers between gpu in the same or very similar architectures.

You can see that even polaris has lower performance than its TF number suggests compared to GCN 1.3...

r9 390 5.1TF is slightly faster than rx 480 5.8TF:p

If scorpio has a 6TF polaris gpu it'll perform slightly better than a rx 480, which makes it slightly slower than a reference gtx 980
 

ganaconda

Member
So just like I predicted, scorpio is using Polaris according to this article. I'm not surprised as it makes the most sense and it's likely either the rx490 or a lesser version of Polaris. By the end of 2017, that will be utterly disappointing.

That article doesn't really say anything. It just speculates that the Scorpio "could" use a custom Zen + Polaris custom SOC. It doesn't say anywhere definitively that Scorpio is actually using Polaris. Might want to re-read.
 

Nutter

Member
6 Tflops looks cool today but in fall 2017 , 6Tflops looks crap ... :(

I dont believe in what hes saying about game in 4K smooth experience... No chance for 4K/60 fps with a 6Tflops GPU , not with AAA graphics... And is useless for 30 fps ... 1080p/60fps high picture quality >4k/30fps medium picture quality...

Sorry if im not clear , i try to speak english without a translator... xD

It is so crap that I wonder how Sony fans will feel about their Neo.
 

rokkerkory

Member
6 Tflops looks cool today but in fall 2017 , 6Tflops looks crap ... :(

I dont believe in what hes saying about game in 4K smooth experience... No chance for 4K/60 fps with a 6Tflops GPU , not with AAA graphics... And is useless for 30 fps ... 1080p/60fps high picture quality >4k/30fps medium picture quality...

Sorry if im not clear , i try to speak english without a translator... xD

Oh juniors... Crap even?
 

AmyS

Member
So just like I predicted, scorpio is using Polaris according to this article. I'm not surprised as it makes the most sense and it's likely either the rx490 or a lesser version of Polaris. By the end of 2017, that will be utterly disappointing.

The specific family of GPU, and Zen for the CPU, has not been officially confirmed by Microsoft.

All that's officially confirmed is a 6TF GPU, 320 GB/sec memory bandwidth and 8 CPU cores.
 

Munki

Member
The specific family of GPU, and Zen for the CPU, has not been officially confirmed by Microsoft.

All that's officially confirmed is a 6TF GPU, 320 GB/sec memory bandwidth and 8 CPU cores.

Is there any possibility that these numbers get an increase by the time Scorpio is released?
 
Is there any possibility that these numbers get an increase by the time Scorpio is released?

Both Polygon and Kotaku have stated:

"We hear that the folks at Xbox have yet to finalize the specs for 2017’s Scorpio, although they briefed third-party publishers on the device during a secret event last week, according to a source."

So anything is possible.
 
...

This is completely unlike a 4 core CPU doing the same performance as an 8 core, as GPUs are "embarrassingly parallel" devices and don't have such issues scaling performance by core count.

in a less distinct manner it is exactly like with CPUs. you allways lose utilization by making processes more parallel. and that's exactly why this indeed is a interessting statement:

. Again, I never got why "Nvidia does more with less flops" should be a particularly interesting statement.

on more parallelized systems you will allways get more "lazy cycles" respectively underutilization on the later logic units (SMs / CUs). that's why nvidia works more efficient in dx11. they have fewer logic units but because of their higher clock rates are capable of working far more cycles per second. the available logic units are utilized much more efficient (as can also be seen in power consumption). dx12 should have fixed that by now, by providing (automatic) job scheduling on a very elemental level. but hence microsoft made the fucking decision to confine dx12 to their win10 ecosystem the transition there is numbingly slow, as studios fear to lose market potential by developing for dx12.

edit: once you eliminate the inefficiency differential amd-flops will indeed be nvidia-flops
 

AmyS

Member
Is there any possibility that these numbers get an increase by the time Scorpio is released?

Everyone can speculate, anything is possible. There's more speculation surrounding Neo and what CPU the final version will have.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
So the 4.2 TF for the Neo is not finalized either eh?

To be fair the 4.2TF is maths that DF applied to their conclusion/guess of what Neo's GPU is i.e. that it is a down clocked RX 480. All that the docs state is 36 improved GCN compute units at 911MHz.

The docs also state the CPU is a Jaguar at 2.1GHz. A VRWorld reporter claims they aren't Jaguar (because switching it from 28nm planar to 14nmFF is "a pointless exercise" because it would require a from scratch re-design)

My own belief is whatever the announced specs are that Neo ends up with they would have been decided upon/"locked down" before Patrick Klepek broke the Neo story and any changes to spec (CPU-GPU-RAM) since then and Scorpio being announced would be pretty minor if Neo is Q1 2017 or non-existent if this year.
 

Journey

Banned
To be fair the 4.2TF is maths that DF applied to their conclusion/guess of what Neo's GPU is i.e. that it is a down clocked RX 480. All that the docs state is 36 improved GCN compute units at 911MHz.

The docs also state the CPU is a Jaguar at 2.1GHz. A VRWorld reporter claims they aren't Jaguar (because switching it from 28nm planar to 14nmFF is "a pointless exercise" because it would require a from scratch re-design)

My own belief is whatever the announced specs are that Neo ends up with they would have been decided upon/"locked down" before Patrick Klepek broke the Neo story and any changes to spec (CPU-GPU-RAM) since then and Scorpio being announced would be pretty minor if Neo is Q1 2017 or non-existent if this year.


To be fair, that's how DF got their number.

36 Compute units x 64 = 2304 stream processors. In GCN they're x2 efficient, therefore...

Stream processors x 2 x GPU frequency = Total theoretical bandwidth.

2304 x 2 x 911Mhz (million cycles) = 4197888 Million Floating Operations Per Second a.k.a 4.2 TF It's a pretty much confirmed number based on their own paper, unless you're arguing that the PPT is fake.
 
To be fair, that's how DF got their number.

36 Compute units x 64 = 2304 stream processors. In GCN they're x2 efficient, therefore...

Stream processors x 2 x GPU frequency = Total theoretical bandwidth.

2304 x 2 x 911 = 4197888 a.k.a 4.2TF It's a pretty much confirmed number based on their own paper, unless you're arguing that the PPT is fake.

thats only half precision. full precision means 10tf, so sony has this in the bag.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
To be fair, that's how DF got their number.

36 Compute units x 64 = 2304 stream processors. In GCN they're x2 efficient, therefore...

Stream processors x 2 x GPU frequency = Total theoretical bandwidth.

2304 x 2 x 911Mhz (million cycles) = 4197888 Million Floating Operations Per Second a.k.a 4.2 TF It's a pretty much confirmed number based on their own paper, unless you're arguing that the PPT is fake.

Definitely not. I was just throwing Munki a bone about upgrades being possible. I realise DF made the calc from the specs in the doc but I made that post 5 days before I found and read the doc myself.

I think I've been pretty clear in all the threads that my stance is that the Neo will be 4.2TF and Jag. All "evidence" I've personally found and read points to this. Anything above that is gravy. Until the fat lady sings clock bumps/CPU upgrades can't 100% be ruled out though.
 

Journey

Banned
thats only half precision. full precision means 10tf, so sony has this in the bag.


Lol, I know you're joking, but how are they going to manage a nearly 6x power increase with a mere 1.24x increase in bandwidth? A 10TF GPU with a measly 218GB/s would be a terrible design.

Scorpio is equipped with 320GB/s bandwidth, an indicator of how much power they're planning to drop in the thing, matching the bandwidth of an nVidia GTX 1080, a massive increase compared to X1. A 1.24x increase in bandwidth is meh, but a 4.7x increase is freaking great!
 

dr_rus

Member
To be fair, that's how DF got their number.

36 Compute units x 64 = 2304 stream processors. In GCN they're x2 efficient, therefore...

Stream processors x 2 x GPU frequency = Total theoretical bandwidth.

2304 x 2 x 911Mhz (million cycles) = 4197888 Million Floating Operations Per Second a.k.a 4.2 TF It's a pretty much confirmed number based on their own paper, unless you're arguing that the PPT is fake.
They're not "2x more efficient in GCN", each of SPs is able to perform two math ops per cycle. That's where 2x is coming from.
 

Lady Gaia

Member
They're not "2x more efficient in GCN", each of SPs is able to perform two math ops per cycle. That's where 2x is coming from.

Exactly. Fused Multiply-Add instructions have been standard fare for a while now, so you almost invariably get two floating point operations per cycle per compute unit.
 

anothertech

Member
Lol, I know you're joking, but how are they going to manage a nearly 6x power increase with a mere 1.24x increase in bandwidth? A 10TF GPU with a measly 218GB/s would be a terrible design.

Scorpio is equipped with 320GB/s bandwidth, an indicator of how much power they're planning to drop in the thing, matching the bandwidth of an nVidia GTX 1080, a massive increase compared to X1. A 1.24x increase in bandwidth is meh, but a 4.7x increase is freaking great!
its called 'Secret Sauce'! (TM)
 

Gamezone

Gold Member
Shouldn't Microsoft to release the Scorpio around the same time as Neo? I'm so looking forward to it, and can't help feeling a bit annoyed over the late date.
 

Hilarion

Member
This is a silly question, but what resolution is 2K? Would I just divide both sides of 3840/2160 by root 2? That seems to come out to around 1532p.

EDIT: Oh, it seems 2K is another name for 1080p. That's...silly.

EDIT 2: Wait, 2K resolution is 2048x1080, but 1080p is 1920x1080...so 2K is just slightly wider?
 

Melchiah

Member
Lol, I know you're joking, but how are they going to manage a nearly 6x power increase with a mere 1.24x increase in bandwidth? A 10TF GPU with a measly 218GB/s would be a terrible design.

Scorpio is equipped with 320GB/s bandwidth, an indicator of how much power they're planning to drop in the thing, matching the bandwidth of an nVidia GTX 1080, a massive increase compared to X1. A 1.24x increase in bandwidth is meh, but a 4.7x increase is freaking great!

Unless they're doing the same as before...

c18jd4v4jq4v.gif


...which they also did with XBO, when they added the memory bandwidth numbers together, and came up with 208GB/s.
 

quest

Not Banned from OT
Shouldn't Microsoft to release the Scorpio around the same time as Neo? I'm so looking forward to it, and can't help feeling a bit annoyed over the late date.

Depends why they are waiting. If they are waiting to include the Zen CPU the wait is 100% correct and is good for all of us core gamers. If they are waiting because Sony caught them off guard and this is a 6TF machine with a jaguar then waiting is a disaster IMO. I am rooting for the Zen and don't mind waiting a extra 12 months for it.
 
Unless they're doing the same as before...

c18jd4v4jq4v.gif


...which they also did with XBO, when they added the memory bandwidth numbers together, and came up with 208GB/s.

I think people are really reaching in this particular instance. If they announced publicly at E3 it will have over 320GB/s of memory bandwidth, it is going to have over 320GB/s of memory bandwidth.

Depends why they are waiting. If they are waiting to include the Zen CPU the wait is 100% correct and is good for all of us core gamers. If they are waiting because Sony caught them off guard and this is a 6TF machine with a jaguar then waiting is a disaster IMO. I am rooting for the Zen and don't mind waiting a extra 12 months for it.

Could be waiting for Zen, Vega, and possibly even also a better manufacturing process. I'm thinking Microsoft definitely gets a Vega GPU from AMD. AMD confirmed already that the RX480 is the biggest polaris configuration that exists. Basically, the way AMD has been doing things of late, a Polaris GPU will not get any bigger than that. So, either Microsoft is getting a 6TF Vega chip, or some other chip AMD has yet to make public. And I just find it very hard to fathom that Microsoft would be using Jaguar in this next system. It has to be Zen.
 

Theonik

Member
Lol, I know you're joking, but how are they going to manage a nearly 6x power increase with a mere 1.24x increase in bandwidth? A 10TF GPU with a measly 218GB/s would be a terrible design.

Scorpio is equipped with 320GB/s bandwidth, an indicator of how much power they're planning to drop in the thing, matching the bandwidth of an nVidia GTX 1080, a massive increase compared to X1. A 1.24x increase in bandwidth is meh, but a 4.7x increase is freaking great!
This is a bit that's a bit hairy right now. MS also did that with the Xbox One reporting bandwidth of both the ESRAM and DDR3 system by adding them in a single number to make it seem closer to the PS4 when in practical terms you can't add them. Will Scorpio have ESRAM? If it does, is MS adding the figures again? Who knows. There is also a question of BC here. That 102GB/s memory is also very low latency it might be hard to substitute.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom