Technically isn't the 3DS considered having "two screens"? Lenticular displays are actually displaying two simulataneous images at once after all.
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Nintendo NX rumored to use Nvidia's Pascal GPU architecture
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LordOfChaos
Member
The iPhone does now have a low level API like consoles though, Metal. 6/6Plus to the X1 compare like this
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9289/the-nvidia-shield-android-tv-review/4
For the 6S:
Now that's in a plugged to the wall X1 with a heatsink and fan, likely closer to representing the docked mode than the portable mode. Then again the above is all Maxwell, not Pascal.
It's head/face tracking, more specifically. Not really useful for VR or AR (that would be gaze tracking).
James Scott
Banned
A port of the HD version makes most sense. Sell two different versions to the handheld market.
They'll double dip
James Scott
Banned
Seems like a bad port. No clue if it's due to limitations or SE being SE
Edit: sorry; double post
Mobius is made in Unity, which isn't really that optimized on mobile when using advanced shaders like that.
A better benchmark would be UE4's ProtoStar vulkan demo on the Galaxy S7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIdNoSB69PI
And this is the 2014 Rivalry demo running the full UE4 deferred renderer on the Tegra K1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRr-G95GdaM
And here's the X1 running the Elemental Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0d3rFALqLo
Ah, thanks for grabbing the graphs, yeah when you factor in the fact that it'll be portable the numbers will have to go down.
Skittzo0413
Member
I'm getting a lot of mixed messages!
Does the new 3DS have a technology which is fairly similar to eye/gaze tracking or is whatever it has too different?
I admit I don't know that much about gaze tracking but I would imagine that it's fairly CPU intensive. To try to keep this topic somewhat related to the thread, could a Pascal Tegra CPU run this type of software in addition to a typical game? I guess with one or two cores reserved for the OS, would that be enough to also cover this type of sensor software (in addition to other sensor tech needed for AR)?
It's not the same. The New 3DS can detect where the eyes (and mouth) are. It can determine the location and orientation of the player's head, which is then used to adjust the parallax barrier (it could also be used for other things like adjusting the in-game camera to respond to head tracking, but so far no game used it).
Gaze tracking detects the direction where the user's eyes are looking at, independent from the head. It requires far more precise (and expensive) instruments which can scan the surface of the eyes at high rates.
Refreshment.01
Member
i talked about tracking in another thread. Look at this post:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=188115440
It covers an specific product. So you will have a better idea on how it works.
As M3d10n posted above. The 3DS it's using a low resolution 640p camera to resolve facial features like the eye and mouth postions in the face. It also baths the user face in IR for tracking those features in low light conditions. That would be something that it's tiny bit in common since some eye/gaze tracking solutions bath the eye with IR for "white" recognition to track eye movement.
Foveted Rendering is specially important since it has applications that could help improve the performance for graphic demanding games.
I was just watching these demos to get an idea of the visuals we could expect from NX the other day. They all definitely look great for mobile. I wonder how ACTUAL games will look though, since to my knowledge these demos are scripted and don't account for the myriad other things that have to be processed during actual gameplay, like AI, physics, lighting etc.
Skittzo0413
Member
Thanks! So essentially you need a fairly expensive camera for this? Does it depend on how close or far the camera will be typically placed from the user? i.e. if it's a camera in a handheld or controller which is within 2 feet of the user, it wouldn't need to be as high resolution in theory (I assume). High speed cameras I would imagine are still fairly expensive at the size they'd be needing for a portable though...
Good post! I had an idea a while back about eye tracking controlling a reticle or cursor, and I came to the same conclusion as you that it wouldn't be very satisfying as an aiming reticle. Still could work well as a cursor I think- it's like having a Wiimote attached to your face.
I'm curious though about whether or not it would be prohibitively expensive to use the technology in this patent - https://www.google.com/patents/US8704879
It seems to use visual and IR sensors to change the angles of visuals in game to effectively create a "window" like effect when looking at the TV (or portable), which could be seen as VR-like. Not sure if this is within the scope of this thread though.
Refreshment.01
Member
Yes, it depends on how close the camera is to the user. That is way gaze tracking in a Mobile device would be a nice place to start in terms of mass market implementation of the technology. And VR of course.
Is that the patent with the guy using a glasses frame and a baseball cap?
In that case that implementation is not exactly gaze tracking since the camera is not detecting eye movement, instead it measures the displacement of IR emitters installed in those props. You can accomplish something similar with the camera tracking of the New 3DS. That is, to adjust the paralax effect of the image according to head movement. The Amzon phone (Fire i think it's called) uses cameras installed in the phones frame to achieve a similar effect. In my opinion the lens free stereo effect of the New 3DS is far more impressive and useful.
And no, is not related to the thread. It's kind of sad the NX discussion is now splitted in 2 big threads. What we talk about would be better suited to the Eurogamer thread XD
Nintendo are definitely not going to make a 1080p handheld. But this VR discussion makes me realize now why Nintendo may have gotten a crazy good deal on their chips.
Nvidia needs a platform to showcase that Pascall Tegra is amazing.
Nvidia can be gambling to get back into the mobile scene with the NX.
If the NX sells really well Nvidia can use that to convince the mobile companies who have been turned off by them to have a partnership in making a Shield Phone that blows away Samsung's Gear VR initiative.
This makes so much sense I would be annoyed if Nvidia and a phone company didn't do this even if the NX flops. After all whatever the NX is using won't be the best Tegra Pascall chip Nvidia can make. I think we can all bet on that.
I can't really agree there necessarily, at least when talking about a phone's form factor. There's a limit to how big the chip can be after all, and unless Nintendo's chip will use 1 SM *or less* they'll be right up to that limit, if not above it.
Personally I'm more interested if the NX will be the first (if at all) localized version of Dragon Quest X. I would really like to play that with a bunch of friends that aren't computer savvy and won't go through the trouble of altering a few PC files.
It was when people were thinking about the existence of the home device, well before EuroGamer's feature. What he heard about was, indeed, that NX was a handheld with an HDMI-out, an hybrid. The disappointment was in reference to the home console's expectation.
Oregano, give some context, pls
Well my disappointment was about power too (if my sources are true) since you can't have a PS4 or XB1 on a HH device as you can guess. Obviously for a HH is a good power but very far for a home console. But I repeat if the sources are true since everything is not set in stone.
In fact I didn't heard anything about different modes (i mean that when docked anything changes). So for a home console I see that power (if true) a great disappointment.
But I understand that for Nintendo it's the best scenario since they are unable to maintain 2 consoles at the same time when they changed to HD development as we saw with 3ds/Wiiu.
Well, there it is. This is in no way, shape, or form a hybrid, and if Nintendo advertises it as such they honestly deserve to be sued for false advertising. What a joke of a company.
Depends on your definition of "hybrid" (I asked on GAF this and no one gave me an answer since everyone has a different definition).
And about the disappointment quote It's my personal opinion since I'm not a HH gamer (I have them but I don't play a lot with them) but I understand that it could be perfect for others.
Ulysses 31
Member
If this is a hybrid, then PSP is a hybrid, and my laptop is a laptop/desktop/console hybrid. This is a handheld that connects to a TV and nothing more. A hybrid should do something to make it fit for multiple purposes. This does nothing. It's just a handheld.
Let's wait for the official reveal before calling it anything, least of all a joke.
He's never been wrong so far from what I understand. We would have heard about such a mode by now anyway.
I can't really see how the dock wont increase the power. assuming they are using a 540p screen on the handheld, in docked mode it must up the rez as a 540p image would look terrible on a 1080p 50" screen.
It should have ended here :]
if the NX is upscaling in docked mode it must have upped the power a little.
SinCityAssassin
Member
My guess would be that at 540p the chip would be underclocking by a lot, considering the need for longer battery life. If a dock lets it go full throttle, then 1080p should look just fine even if the dock itself isn't providing anything extra.
I have a strong feeling that the screen is actually 720p. There's not much reason to go with 540p since it should be able to match or beat Wii U at 720p anyway.
The detachable controllers are a major form factor adjustment to make it function as a hybrid. The screen becomes just a chip in the dock, and you walk away with the controllers. It comes with everything you need in the box to hook it up to your TV and get equal or better TV performance than the most recent Nintendo console. This has never been true of any Nintendo handheld in the past. The handhelds have always been well behind the most recent console. This time the handheld is a step up from the most recent console.
And it probably puts out a higher resolution image to TVs than it does when running on battery (though that remains to be seen for sure.)
These are all factors that make it a hybrid. It is designed to function, out of the box, as a HD console for people who want to play on their TVs. Plenty of people will use it that way primarily. That is not true for an ordinary handheld.
This is my guess too. The dock will probably cause the system to switch into a high performance mode because battery life won't be an issue.
Starchasing
Member
Yeah are getting Wii U - gamepad + new gimmick...
When used as a handheld we will get 540p Wii U visuals, it will work under clocked, long ass battery time, local multiplayer everywhere you go because of gimmick
When docked we will get 1080P Wii U visuals, not upscaled but rendered because it will work at normal clock. Regular controller.
But since it supports vulcan modern engines can be used... it will scale down just like a crappy PC can
Did you read the post before mine?
EDIT: apparently everyone quoting me without reading the posts before mine. Ok.
Jesus the level of discussion in this thread. Not only are you going full in with "joke of a company", you're doing it based on loose hopes, speculation and rumours. You're talking about false advertising when Nintendo hasn't said a word about what the system is.
Let's look at what Nintendo has to do: They have to move towards a constant and deep software flow that's independent of 3rd parties. In other words, they have to stop developing for two separate systems. All Nintendo games available for every Nintendo customer. That is THE important thing about their hardware going forward. More important than price, power, 3rd parties, anything else.
The handheld market is very important for them, and bigger than the console one. So it has to work as a handheld, or have a handheld form factor. And the handheld has to be able to run every game, or the whole point of unifying development is bust.
In other words, what would be a joke would be a big discrepancy between console and handheld experience. A powerful handheld and a solid console experience that is not aiming to compete with high end PC / consoles is what's the obvious solution.
We don't know if the dock will up resolution, or if console form factors of the NX family of systems will arrive in the future. But you're throwing tantrums when the only thing we know is Nintendo is taking the only logical route forwards.
I can connect my phone to a TV using HDMI and use a Bluetooth controller to play games on it. I guess that's a hybrid too.
Sorry, but no. At best, it's a supremely half-assed hybrid. Literally all they had to do was stick a slightly bigger heatsink on the thing and have it run at 1GHz in a dock. It's lazy, and obvious that this was shoehorned into being a "hybrid" when Nintendo decided to stop making consoles. And the worst part is that this controller stuff makes it pretty bad as a handheld as well on top of being completely unnecessary. This just sounds like a poorly designed and thought out PoS with power as the only impressive thing about it. Maybe there's something more to be seen, but I doubt it.
Then they should have the balls to say, "Look, consoles don't work for us anymore. We're a handheld company now." That's what I want to see at the reveal. Honestly, I'd prefer a weaker handheld with more battery life and a lower price to what's rumored. It's going to be the most shit console ever, especially if we have to use this broken controller, so why even bother? Who wants upscaled 540p or 720p in 2017 and beyond? And that's the thing right there: I'm not talking about having a discrepancy. I want the handheld to be able to render in TV in 1080p so that games don't look like shit. I wasn't expecting any other differences besides maybe some small IQ tweaks. I would never consider playing this thing on a TV, and I'm probably not alone.
This is all my opinion.
P.S.: I said "if"
Dreamwriter
Member
Something...like having the controllers disconnect from the sides so you can use them for multiplayer couch play, or more comfortable console-style play? How about playing in 1080p on tv where the handheld screen probably won't be 1080p?
Really, what makes this a rumored hybrid is the fact that this single device is as powerful as a console and all Nintendo games will be released for it, making it serve a dual purpose of being a handheld and a console. There is no need to buy two devices because this one hybrid device acts as both. There's no need for it to be more powerful in a "console mode" when it's already as powerful as it needs to be. If it acted like a totally different device when plugged into separate hardware (like a dock), that would make it *less* of a hybrid and more like two different devices.
Only if that controller is built-into the phone, and the phone is sold as a dual-purpose device designed to replace two devices with one. Note, I have seen tablets like that, that I would call a hybrid tablet/game handheld.
SinCityAssassin
Member
I'm not going to trust people with mystery sources on neogaf anymore after that whole NX controller fiasco.
Jesus christ we haven't even seen the thing yet. It doesn't even have an official name. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
SinCityAssassin
Member
You should've seen him during the whole "Only Zelda at E3" thing.
Ulysses 31
Member
Cliff notes? =P
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I also, will ORDER Malo to stop with hyperboles.
Ok' I'll tell you here for the last time, Mucho. It comes from my heart, after seeing you post for several months, I think it needs to be done.
*ahem*
STOP GOING EACH AND EVERYTIME WITH HYPERBOLES! It's not because they always tend to be pessimistic, it's because they pollute discussions. Going immediately to an extreme side of a conversation (both positively or negatively) the way you do makes it far more difficult for people to discuss about something in a civil way, and make your opinion look like a mostly-brainless fart, so people don't take your opinion as seriously as it could deserve, or not at all. It really, really makes for a much worse conversation and a much worse "reputation" for you. Doing it costantly isn't funny either. This is a serious advice for you, Mucho. I hope you'll understand where my advice comes from.
Sorry for the OT, go on with the discussion.
It seems you don't have much of a grasp about how marketing and PR works.
And how is it going to do that if the power is the same when connected to the TV? It's just going to upscale from the screen's resolution and look like crap.
And, again, all that the controllers do is compromise it as a handheld. It sounds like something half-assedly added at the last minute so they could pretend that they actually put some thought into this. You're free to have your opinion, but I'm sticking to mine.
sigh Oh well, at least this makes the speculation easier... Anyway, I'm dropping this. Sorry guys.
I'm predicting 256 GFLOPS as the max now for sure, with 4 cores and 3GB.
SinCityAssassin
Member
"Nintendo managed to have their worst E3 ever before the event even began. That takes talent."
Well, even if I totally dislike a certain kind of behaviour, I'd say that me too, if the NX will be "simply" a GREAT portable with HDMI cable out, I'd be shocked at them eventually call it a hybrid, even if the output will be some sort of overclocked Wii U.
That said, I will totally wait for the revela for MANY reasons:
- Undeerstanding its actual characteritics
- Understand their marketing positioning
- Understand its price positioning
- Undestand its possible pros in terms of software output
Once I'll have those info in hand, even if the TV output will be an overclokced Wii U, I could still enjoy the console a lot, if the price/positioning/output/software (not only in terms of quantity, but also quality and "ambition") will satisfy me
I could also be pretty interested in a reversed Gamepad, honestly, as a "marketing concept", because I really exploited Off-tv A LOT, regretting to not be allowed to bring it with mw to continue playing for example Xenoblade Chronicles X
That said, I will totally wait for the revela for MANY reasons:
- Undeerstanding its actual characteritics
- Understand their marketing positioning
- Understand its price positioning
- Undestand its possible pros in terms of software output
Once I'll have those info in hand, even if the TV output will be an overclokced Wii U, I could still enjoy the console a lot, if the price/positioning/output/software (not only in terms of quantity, but also quality and "ambition") will satisfy me
I could also be pretty interested in a reversed Gamepad, honestly, as a "marketing concept", because I really exploited Off-tv A LOT, regretting to not be allowed to bring it with mw to continue playing for example Xenoblade Chronicles X
HH?
I doubt that they'll release an inferior machine to wiiu so, i believe there must be something more like metaldave says.
For what it's worth, i totally agree that if the console simply send 720p (optimistically, more probably 600 or 540p) signals to 1080p instead of upping the clock to upgrade the resolution this is pure unadulterated shit. Why would i pay for a big form factor, shitty detachable controllers for the opportunity to play on the TV? It make no sense, just make a normal handheld. I was already of the opinion that a "hybrid" sucked because it would just make for a huge handheld and a shitty home console (and overpriced over both), but if there's no real difference in using it docked it could just've used a HDMI cable and at least you would have a form factor that kept in mind usability and ergonomicity over things like having detachable controllers that will have to make sacrifice for the intended design.
If they went with a box with the same identical specifications we would have a significantly cheaper console with better controls and better specs (since clocking wouldn't be at issue at all in a casing that's even half of the WiiU). Same for the handheld, significantly cheaper, with better controls. You want the hybrid aspect? Put an HDMI out and you can still play with your handheld on the TV without compromising anything.
If they went with a box with the same identical specifications we would have a significantly cheaper console with better controls and better specs (since clocking wouldn't be at issue at all in a casing that's even half of the WiiU). Same for the handheld, significantly cheaper, with better controls. You want the hybrid aspect? Put an HDMI out and you can still play with your handheld on the TV without compromising anything.
Starchasing
Member
Nintendo is sacrificing the home console power in order to have a much stronger and stable line up.
Some people are mad because they want another ps4.
Nintendo fans are happy because they get to play all games with just one machine, on the go and at home.
Graphics Horse
Member
This is idiotic, it's a hybrid form factor.
SinCityAssassin
Member
Which is mostly why I stay out of speculation threads most of the time, because I feel we've obviously haven't gotten the full picture, or even a true mock up since the ones made by Eurogamer are what they are led to believe.
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