Support NeoGAF

[theclaw135]

All this drama over takedowns that have, thus far, not been directed at the project's you know... actual creators.

Either way, we can't rule out the possibility Nintendo discovered an issue with the game impossible for them to have known until it became available somewhere.

 

[Maxim726X]

How many years was this in development?

Couldn't send this earlier? I guess it's for the better that they waited, since now it's out of the box and can never get back in, but it's pretty fucked up nonetheless.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Also, I would argue that cameo appearances by Samus in crossover content like NES Remix, Nintendo Land, and Smash Bros. doesn't really count because the inclusion of Metroid is a logical thing. For Smash, it would be very strange if Samus was omitted. It is not as if Nintendo hates Metroid or considers it a drag on IPs, so it's relatively low effort to consider Metroid a suitable inclusion; all three IPs feature obscure game references, especially Nintendo Land with its Takamaru stage.

 

[Jebusman]

The point of the DCMA and how it's used is to prevent the wholesale copying and pasting of content and assets- like a youtube video containing gratuitous use of a movie via clips. Or in the context of a game- a fan game or mod that steals assets from another existing game. In the context of AM2R, I'm not sure if there's legal ground to apply (correctly, morally and legally) a takedown of this game. It's completely transformative while being based on an existing IP and uses no assets from Nintendo itself AFAIK.

Question before I dive into this, are you actually in any position to have any legal experience in these matters, or did you just spend about 5 minutes reading the DCMA page on Wikipedia?

Because I don't 100% buy "completely transformative".

The core and the drive of the game is pretty much the same. Samus is still "Samus" and not a parody or reimagining of herself. The "plot" is still largely the same. It offers no commentary on the original. Someone essentially said "Hey look, I improved Metroid 2", not "Hey, I made a game that plays like a better Metroid 2"

I don't think this is nearly as clear cut as you seem to believe, and your constant comparisions to cover/parody songs don't help your case, considering that cover songs still legally need licenses to distribute. The thing that copyright law provides cover songs is that they cannot be refused a license on the basis of it being a cover song along. But it doesn't mean that they can get away without it scot free.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Man, just found out Nintendo took down the Nintendo Power files too.

Crappy day all around. :c

There's a thread for that but there's no word on whether Nintendo was responsible.

 

[Gestault]

Just so no one gets too deep in a misconception:

This fan project is constructed as a "replacement" for a copyrighted work, using the identifiable brand and design. That's a no-no, even if it's awesome and the rights holder is doing nothing with it. It supplants the original owner's ability to profit from their work (in both direct and potential senses). It's inconsequential whether it's being distributed for free or for profit at that point.

 

[DryvBy]

I'll never understand why Nintendo doesn't hire these people to make a game. The people they've hired for Metroid games recently haven't generated any hype.

 

[Kinsei]

How many years was this in development?

Couldn't send this earlier? I guess it's for the better that they waited, since now it's out of the box and can never get back in, but it's pretty fucked up nonetheless.

10 years.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Dude's had demos on his site for years as the game has progressed. Nintendo can't have not been aware of it. They simply didn't do anything till now...if this is indeed them and not a DMCA troll.

From what I understand, companies HAVE to protect their copyrights and IPs for legal reasons, so this was inevitable, but is it possible that Nintendo waited until now to lower the boom because they KNEW that once it was on the Internet it would be out there for good? In other words, they are taking this down because they have to, but they waited until after release so as to allow people to have it? Why else would they wait?

 

[Mesoian]

That's still irrational. How is Nintendo doing nothing and possibly getting money due to increased interest in Metroid and Metroidvanias worse than them going out of their way to prevent people from playing this and also pissing off their fans in the process? Potential money is still better than no money.

What? Potential Money IS no money. Especially when the potential for said money is based purely on fandom and word of mouth. How does Nintendo make any money off of AM2R? There's no path to that revenue with this project because Nintendo is not making these types of games. Why would someone buy FF if they liked AM2R?

Better question, REAL question: How does catering to the Metroid fanbase put any money in Nintendo's pocket now that we know what we do about what the next Metroid is going to be? Different conversation but, do you think FF would sell better if it was not a Metroid game? Because I do.

This argument only works if you assume that Nintendo fans are complete idiots who would be blindly excited for FF if only it wasn't for those pesky fan projects. Additionally, by this logic, Nintendo shouldn't promote the existing Metroid games on the eShop too (including the original Metroid 2) since they also "don't adhere to their future projects".

And honestly, if a one-man indie remake of a GB game is more exciting to people than whatever Nintendo makes with millions of dollars of marketing and development, that's pretty telling.

Let's not get crazy, Nintendo basically ISN'T marketing their VC stuff. Outside of enthusist press, there is next to nothing when it comes to making VC a big deal. The need eyes on their big projects and not have the validity of said projects be divided by fan projects, the quality of which Nintendo should be doing themselves.

And you're absolutely 100% mother fucking correct. The fact that this fangame had more buzz and more interest in the community than FF EVER had is pretty god damn telling. But that's the bed Nintendo's made. It's the situation that they need to deal with. And AM2R being a thing that people can get does not support that situation.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'll never understand why Nintendo doesn't hire these people to make a game. The people they've hired for Metroid games recently haven't generated any hype.

This, so much. AM2R is a really good effort, better than Street Fighter X Mega Man (which is a really good game in its own right even). Instead of trying to wipe quality off of the map, they could have facilitated them to design this and sell it on the eShop for $10. Imagine if they showed this off at E3 - Nintendo would have had so much goodwill generated! Of course, it's the same reason why Mother 3 isn't available in English legally - Nintendo is simply too conservative a company. Shit, they're so conservative that they wouldn't even allow Atlus to translate and release it in the US!

What? Potential Money IS no money. Especially when the potential for said money is based purely on fandom and word of mouth. How does Nintendo make any money off of AM2R? There's no path to that revenue with this project because Nintendo is not making these types of games. Why would someone buy FF if they liked AM2R?

Better question, REAL question: How does catering to the Metroid fanbase put any money in Nintendo's pocket now that we know what we do about what the next Metroid is going to be? Different conversation but, do you think FF would sell better if it was not a Metroid game? Because I do.

The easy answer is "wow, this is really good. I'm curious to try out Metroid II now to see what the original was like."

And the answer to "Why would someone buy FF if they liked AM2R" is simple: they wouldn't, for the same reason why they wouldn't buy FF if they enjoyed Super Metroid. They're too different of games to result in any degree of influence on fans of the latter. Some people who simply are willing to give any Metroid game a chance may, but simply playing SM isn't going to be adequate to make them ignore the vast differences. Either way, AM2R could also very easily reignite fans of Metroid and perhaps even show Nintendo that there is an audience for 2D Metroid still. Just like how the sales of an obscure N64 game like Sin & Punishment spurred Nintendo into making a full-blown sequel on the Wii.

 

[Kthulhu]

I'll never understand why Nintendo doesn't hire these people to make a game. The people they've hired for Metroid games recently haven't generated any hype.

This. If Sonic Mania is a success, then everyone should at least consider it.

 

[collige]

Just so no one gets too deep in a misconception:

This fan project is constructed as a "replacement" for a copyrighted work, using the identifiable brand and design. That's a no-no, even if it's awesome and the rights holder is doing nothing with it. It supplants the original owner's ability to profit from their work (in both direct and potential senses). It's inconsequential whether it's being distributed for free or for profit at that point.

I agree, but I also think it could be argued that its status as a replacement isn't totally set in stone due to the number and scope of creative liberties that were taken with the remake.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

I'll never understand why Nintendo doesn't hire these people to make a game. The people they've hired for Metroid games recently haven't generated any hype.

Well, playing devils advocate, I'd imagine the biggest blocks here are that
A) Nintendo seems to have little interest in anything sprite based anymore, potentially because they're harder to reuse (And this probably clashes with metroid fan expectations for a new 2d game).

B) This particular game is made in gamemaker, isn't it? That's not great for portability. Apparently i'm completely wrong on this point.

Also, even if they did take him/her on as a level designer, the rest of the metroid team would probably be in Japan, and they're not going to be able to wait a decade for a game to be created (presumably this would be done faster though, if they could go full time).

In a perfect world though, they'd absolutely take this person on for a "Metroid Mania" game.

 

[Kyzer]

Yes it is. It uses no Nintendo assets- just like fan art, are both based on an existing Nintendo IP, and like fan art or cover music are largely original transformative works.

Right. And technically, just like remixes on SoundCloud, those people are all open to litigation, and likely a cease and desist first if they're lucky. But there's no reason to go after them. Theyre not professionals, they're fans generating positive mindshare, they're not making profit off it, theyre not distributing, and theyre broke anyways.

If you don't see the difference between a fan creating art and putting it up for people to see, and a fan remaking one of your games (a literal product that you sell s a company) and giving it away for free then you're either choosing to be dense or cherrypicking for emotional justification

 

[Mesoian]

I'll never understand why Nintendo doesn't hire these people to make a game. The people they've hired for Metroid games recently haven't generated any hype.

If I had to guess, they're looking at the sales figures for most of Capcom's late last generation games and are super squeemish about the idea.

But yeah, if Sonic Mania is a hit, these publishers need to start forming teams who's purpose is to mine the community and see who is worth their weight when it comes to fan projects.

But they have to WANT to do that. And if Nintendo doesn't want to do that, it's in their right, even if it's what they SHOULD do, and even if the reason why they don't makes total sense.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Well, I'd imagine the biggest blocks are that

A) Nintendo seems to have little interest in anything sprite based anymore, potentially because they're harder to reuse (And this probably clashes with metroid fan expectations for a new 2d game).

B) This particular game is made in gamemaker, isn't it? That's not great for portability.

Also, even if they did take him/her on as a level designer, the rest of the metroid team would probably be in Japan, and they're not going to be able to wait a decade for a game to be created (presumably this would be done faster though, if they could go full time).

Gamemaker is very portable friendly what are you talking about

its has export tools to various platforms including Android and Vita

 

[EatinOlives]

This, so much. AM2R is a really good effort, better than Street Fighter X Mega Man (which is a really good game in its own right even). Instead of trying to wipe quality off of the map, they could have facilitated them to design this and sell it on the eShop for $10. Imagine if they showed this off at E3 - Nintendo would have had so much goodwill generated! Of course, it's the same reason why Mother 3 isn't available in English legally - Nintendo is simply too conservative a company. Shit, they're so conservative that they wouldn't even allow Atlus to translate and release it in the US!

That would require that Nintendo stay in regular touch with their fans being keen on fan projects that are gaining good traction. They think being completely out of touch is something to be proud of.

 

[epmode]

Just so no one gets too deep in a misconception:

This fan project is constructed as a "replacement" for a copyrighted work, using the identifiable brand and design. That's a no-no, even if it's awesome and the rights holder is doing nothing with it. It supplants the original owner's ability to profit from their work (in both direct and potential senses). It's inconsequential whether it's being distributed for free or for profit at that point.

It's like half this forum is unaware of the existence of fan remakes. Quest for Glory 2, Space Quest 2, a bunch of King's Quests, Maniac Mansion, Half-Life, etc. All of them were remade by fans, many of them are arguably better than the original, no one was shut down by the IP holder.

Nintendo is wayyyyyy overzealous when it comes to this stuff. They're not going to lose the rights to fucking Metroid because of a few fan remakes/fangames. Nintendo just has a backwards attitude to sharing their IP. You can also see it in the way they claim ad revenue on long Youtube videos that happen to use a few seconds of game footage. Doesn't even matter if the original video was ad-free!

 

[SinCityAssassin]

I'll never understand why Nintendo doesn't hire these people to make a game. The people they've hired for Metroid games recently haven't generated any hype.

Next Level Games is probably under contract not to talk abut projects without Nintendo's consent, but I'm led to believe the developer that made this did it as a side hobby and lives in Argentina as a freelance musician, which is why it took so long.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Gamemaker is very portable friendly what are you talking about

its has export tools to various platforms including Android and Vita

Oh. Clearly speaking out of my arse then. Maybe I was confused about what it's built in, or just completely wrong.

Speaking of which,I went to check that, and the downloads and about pages on the blogspot now go to "This page doesn't exist.". Worst timeline.

 

[TheMoon]

Actually, by your own logic, due to his appearance in the Sega Superstars Tennis and Sonic & All-Stars Racing games as recently as 2012, Alex Kidd is very much an alive and thriving franchise.

Except not. The lists ends with a new game that comes out this month.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Oh. Clearly speaking otu of my arse then.


Speaking of which, the downloads page on the blogspot not goes to "This page doesn't exist."

Yeah thankfully i snagged a copy and have access to various archiving sites that save all the cool shit on the internet

 

[thechristoph]

How many years was this in development?

Couldn't send this earlier? I guess it's for the better that they waited, since now it's out of the box and can never get back in, but it's pretty fucked up nonetheless.

What's fucked up about it? You can't unring a bell. This bell got rung and the game is out there.

 

[Maxim726X]

10 years.

Bullshit.

Is this true?

 

[thefro]

That would require that Nintendo stay in regular touch with their fans being keen on fan projects that are gaining good traction. They think being completely out of touch is something to be proud of.

I don't doubt there's people in the Treehouse and at Retro playing this right now but it's got to go up the corporate chain in NOA, and moreover, anyone in Japan could squash it (i.e. Sakamoto if he doesn't like their interpretation of 2D Metroid).

Even with Reggie having some power now it's likely he'd still need to get the ok from Japan on something like this.

Probably the best hope is Trinen shows this to Sakamoto and he loves it.

 

[Maxim726X]

What's fucked up about it? You can't unring a bell. This bell got rung and the game is out there.

It sucks for people who want the game, for one?

Sure it's easy to get today, but that won't be the case down the line.

 

[collige]

What? Potential Money IS no money. Especially when the potential for said money is based purely on fandom and word of mouth. How does Nintendo make any money off of AM2R? There's no path to that revenue with this project because Nintendo is not making these types of games. Why would someone buy FF if they liked AM2R?

You said: "Sure, it COULD. MAYBE. WHO KNOWS". Nintendo would know if they left the project up and looked as sales of similar games of the eShop afterwards. No one would buy FF based on AM2R, but people quite possibly could buy Axiom or Guacamelee based of it and if they buy them on Nintendo platforms then Nintendo would make money. My point is that at worst, leaving the project up makes them the same amount of money as taking it down and at best it makes them more.

Let's not get crazy, Nintendo basically ISN'T marketing their VC stuff. Outside of enthusist press, there is next to nothing when it comes to making VC a big deal. The need eyes on their big projects and not have the validity of said projects be divided by fan projects, the quality of which Nintendo should be doing themselves.

None of the validity of their current projects is being threatened by this because, as you have pointed out, there's nothing competing with this.

 

[WaterAstro]

It was to be expected.

 

[SinCityAssassin]

Bullshit.

Is this true?

I heard it was one guy doing it as a hobby for years.

 

[TheMoon]

It sucks for people who want the game, for one?

Sure it's easy to get today, but that won't be the case down the line.

Don't tell me you think there won't be numerous ways to download this. Especially after they stopped caring and looking for hosts.

I heard it was one guy doing it as a hobby for years.

credits from the OT: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=212689779&postcount=394

 

[Gestault]

It's like half this forum is unaware of the existence of fan remakes. Quest for Glory 2, Space Quest 2, a bunch of King's Quests, Maniac Mansion, Half-Life, etc. All of them were remade by fans, many of them are arguably better than the original, no one was shut down by the IP holder.

Was anything I bought up inaccurate as far as you know, or is it that you don't like the result? I think how companies react to fan enthusiasm like this can be incredibly crappy, but I can't pretend the laws don't exist when rights are exercised.

 

[Green Mamba]

That would require that Nintendo stay in regular touch with their fans being keen on fan projects that are gaining good traction. They think being completely out of touch is something to be proud of.

"Out of touch and proud of it" is the best description for Nintendo I have seen in a while.

 

[Kinsei]

Bullshit.

Is this true?

Yes. This is an excerpt from a post the developer made in 2008.

Hi. My name is Milton. I live in Argentina, where I work as a sound technician in my own recording studio. This is a project I've been working on for over two years, and now I feel it can be finished, so I decided to make it public.

http://metroid2remake.blogspot.ca/2008/01/about-project.html

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Bullshit.

Is this true?

The blog had it's oldest entry something like 8 years ago, and there was already a playable demo mentioned in it, I think.

So yes, it's been a darn long time coming, if not quite 10 years.

 

[SerTapTap]

From what I understand, companies HAVE to protect their copyrights and IPs for legal reasons, so this was inevitable, but is it possible that Nintendo waited until now to lower the boom because they KNEW that once it was on the Internet it would be out there for good? In other words, they are taking this down because they have to, but they waited until after release so as to allow people to have it? Why else would they wait?

This is a trademark thing, if you don't rigorously enforce trademark you're said to lose it (TBH not sure how true even this is). Copyright is nearly impossible to lose, even age won't kill a copyright anymore. Only manually granting works into public domain will kill them (and even then you can get into arguments if there's not proper proof it's public domain).

 

[Dreamwriter]

The point of the DCMA and how it's used is to prevent the wholesale copying and pasting of content and assets- like a youtube video containing gratuitous use of a movie via clips. Or in the context of a game- a fan game or mod that steals assets from another existing game. In the context of AM2R, I'm not sure if there's legal ground to apply (correctly, morally and legally) a takedown of this game. It's completely transformative while being based on an existing IP and uses no assets from Nintendo itself AFAIK.

No. If it's a transformative work and isn't using assets from nintendo itself there's little if any reasonable ground for this.

Huh? That's like saying I can publish a book called Harry Potter and the Oxford Comma, as long as the book doesn't include any chapters from existing books in the series. Or make my own Star Trek series as long as it doesn't have William Shatner acting in it. You can't just use another company's trademarked IP without their permission, doesn't matter if you are using their assets or not.

And BTW, in this case he IS using some of their assets, ripped from Metroid Fusion, Metroid Zero Mission, even Nintendo's company logo.

 

[collige]

Right. And technically, just like remixes on SoundCloud, those people are all open to litigation, and likely a cease and desist first if they're lucky. But there's no reason to go after them. Theyre not professionals, they're fans generating positive mindshare, they're not making profit off it, theyre not distributing, and theyre broke anyways.

If you don't see the difference between a fan creating art and putting it up for people to see, and a fan remaking one of your games (a literal product that you sell s a company) and giving it away for free then you're either choosing to be dense or cherrypicking for emotional justification

So you think that unlike bootleg remixes, Nintendo has a financial reason to go after this because it hurts sales potential for the VC M2 release? How much money do you think they're gonna lose off of this?

The only difference between AM2R and the Soundcloud amateurs you mentioned if the "not distributing" aspect of it, which isn't even true since many, many, many remixes on Soundcloud are downloadable.

 

[Skyzard]

I was surprised it was still up after seeing the thread yesterday, instantly grabbed the zip.

 

[Kinsei]

Huh? That's like saying I can publish a book called Harry Potter and the Oxford Comma, as long as the book doesn't include any chapters from existing books in the series. Or make my own Star Trek series as long as it doesn't have William Shatner acting in it. You can't just use another company's trademarked IP without their permission, doesn't matter if you are using their assets or not.

Fan films and fan fiction have been around for a long time.

 

[lazyguy]

Ok so maybe I glanced over it but I seem to remember Nintendo saying something a few years ago about it being okay to make fan-games? Or am I missremembering it?

 

[Dreamwriter]

Fan films and fan fiction have been around for a long time.

And sometimes they get removed and even sued. Recently a Star Trek series had a big Kickstarter, and they were given a Cease & Desist and Kickstarter asked to take it down. Much fan fiction exists because the original IP owner is fine with it, doesn't care, or doesn't want to spend all their time searching the web for any mentions of their IP.

 

[Jebusman]

Fan films and fan fiction have been around for a long time.

And guess what. Unless each and every single one of those was granted a license from the owner of the IP, they all technically were in violation of copyright law.

Don't get confused with what "feels" right versus what is legally right.

Nintendo did something that a lot of people are going to feel is wrong, but legally they are 100% in the right.

All of those fan films could have been shut down by the IP owners if they so choose, and it has obviously happened in the past many times. Just because some companies chose to ignore it, doesn't automatically make it the rule of law.

I'm not particularly pleased with the situation either, because Metroid 2 is probably one of my favorite out of the series, but I did not doubt for even a second that it was going to get shut down.

 

[RealityCheque]

Good work Nintendo. That should solve it.

I'm sure nobody's downloaded it yet and it won't be easily available from multiple and exponentially increasing new sources.

 

[Menitta]

"Out of touch and proud of it" is the best description for Nintendo I have seen in a while.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

I can see this getting a lot of use in the future.

 

[Kinsei]

And sometimes they get removed and even sued. Recently a Star Trek series had a big Kickstarter, and they were given a Cease & Desist and Kickstarter asked to take it down.

Yeah, they were asking for money.

And guess what. Unless each and every single one of those was granted a license from the owner of the IP, they all technically were in violation of copyright law.

Don't get confused with what "feels" right versus what is legally right.

Nintendo did something that a lot of people are going to feel is wrong, but legally they are 100% in the right.

All of those fan films could have been shut down by the IP owners if they so choose, and it has obviously happened in the past many times. Just because some companies chose to ignore it, doesn't automatically make it the rule of law.

Of course they were legally within their right, that doesn't mean it was a good idea. Companies overlook IP infringement all the time in order to maintain goodwill with their fans. Hell they could have gone the extra mile and reached out to the AM2R team and gotten it on 3DS and/or Wii U like Valve with Black Mesa or Christian Whitehead with Sonic CD.

 

[Kyzer]

So you think that unlike bootleg remixes, Nintendo has a financial reason to go after this because it hurts sales potential for the VC M2 release? How much money do you think they're gonna lose off of this?

The only difference between AM2R and the Soundcloud amateurs you mentioned if the "not distributing" aspect of it, which isn't even true since many, many, many remixes on Soundcloud are downloadable.

No not financial it just got too big to ignore. Its all practicality. How do these things make it to whos desk and is it worth doing something.

I would honestly say the neogaf thread advertising the game and half handedly implying that Nintendo is ok with these things probably had a hand in it getting taken down.

And yeah Facebook rapper x10973 sharing his remix of Shook Ones can absolutely get taken down if it makes it to the right desk. Dude shit gets taken down on YouTube and SoundCloud and probably even DeviantArt all the time for DMCa issues.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Why Corporate Cheerleading Will Never Make That Corporation Actually Love You 101

 

[Occam]

Wow dudes why don't you guys make your names red so it's clear to the rest of us?

Seems unnecessary when we have such fine backseat mods like yourself looking out for our best interests.