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[YankeeDonB]

Lmao, you sure want to crush this game

Anyways, back on track:

Do you guys think that this scene would be considered as pandering nowadays?

100% yes. Look at that pin-up style camera angle. I still remember the grief I got from my dad when he saw Tifa when I was playing VII.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Tell that to the two decades of doujins and fan-art, many of which are being made and released by the time of this post.

That's what porn and fanart does though, they go way further than that with less designed girls.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

So I'm not alone in thinking FF is getting more regressive to how it treats female characters? Going from Yuna and Ashe to...this is just mind fuck worthy to me. But then I think of characters like Lulu and Tifa and maybe it was in my head along?

 

[Via Purifico]

So I'm not alone in thinking FF is getting more regressive to how it treats female characters? Going from Yuna and Ashe to...this is just mind fuck worthy to me. But then I think of characters like Lulu and Tifa and maybe it was in my head along?

I think some of that also has to do with different writers and artists so it was bound to be a mixed bag.

 

[YankeeDonB]

So I'm not alone in thinking FF is getting more regressive to how it treats female characters? Going from Yuna and Ashe to...this is just mind fuck worthy to me. But then I think of characters like Lulu and Tifa and maybe it was in my head along?

Well people may not like Lightning and Fang, but outside of LR (which is a weird case) they're no more regressive than Ashe and Fran or Lulu or Tifa. So I don't think there's a clear trend here yet, questionable as Cindy's portrayal is.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I think Cindy is the first real design in FF that's made me go "Really?!". Her outfit makes Yuna (in FFX-2) and Rikku's look downright conservative

 

[Via Purifico]

I think Cindy is the first real design in FF that's made me go "Really?!". Her outfit makes Yuna (in FFX-2) and Rikku's look downright conservative

I always looked at Yuna's X-2 outfit as a tacky homage to Lara Croft to go with her dual pistols.

 

[.JayZii]

I think Cindy is the first real design in FF that's made me go "Really?!". Her outfit makes Yuna (in FFX-2) and Rikku's look downright conservative

Let's not be crazy.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Let's not be crazy.

Or her gambler outfit paired with the free camera control ability 0_0

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Let's not be crazy.

I mean, if we take context into play, she was an island girl wearing a swimsuit with a skirt. The kind of outfit you'd see people walking around a beach town wearing. Cindy is like Daisy Duke taken up a couple notches

 

[Via Purifico]

Or her gambler outfit paired with the free camera control ability 0_0

And the Trainer outfit which is basically pieces of cloth.

 

[YankeeDonB]

I mean, if we take context into play, she was an island girl wearing a swimsuit with a skirt. The kind of outfit you'd see people walking around a beach town wearing. Cindy is like Daisy Duke taken up a couple notches

But how do you explain this?

Many of the designs in X-2 are pure fan-service, particularly w/ Paine and Yuna where it doesn't fit their personalities at all.

And the Trainer outfit which is basically pieces of cloth.

Berserker you mean, and yeah.

 

[AlucardGV]

But how do you explain this?

damn why i skipped this game

 

[Ran rp]

Are these all of the outfits in X-2? Most of them look fine.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dressphere

 

[Via Purifico]

But how do you explain this?

Many of the designs in X-2 are pure fan-service, particularly w/ Paine and Yuna where it doesn't fit their personalities at all.



Berserker you mean, and yeah.

Yeah, thanks. I don't really get that one lol.

It was basically let's make some of these outfits as fanservicey as possible.

White Mage is covered for obvious reasons lol

 

[UnemployedVillain]

But how do you explain this?

Many of the designs in X-2 are pure fan-service, particularly w/ Paine and Yuna where it doesn't fit their personalities at all.

I meant they're base/normal outfits!

 

[YankeeDonB]

I meant they're base/normal outfits!

Sure, but... Isn't canon Rikku also a mechanic? How can she work on Machina dressed like that, beach town or no?

She seems fairly parallel to Cidney is all I'm saying (I.e., Cidney isn't jumping the shark - they already jumped it).

 

[Vincent Grayson]

I actually really like a lot of the visual design of the various dresspheres in FFX-2. Sure, some are impractical or silly (like the above gambler ones), but I like the designs. For whatever reason, they feel far more appropriate in the context of the game than Cindy does in XV.

The only X-2 design I really hate is Labeau, and her minions for that matter.

 

[LowParry]

Maybe I'm in the few when they recognize what the character was made for, it's more of a shrug and acknowledgement. Maybe that's just an odd approach for me. I understand why it can offend others and I respect their opinions on the subject. But there are times where the subject can go pretty deep down the rabbit hole. And I don't know why people put themselves in that position of so much detail. Is it to prove some higher point? Is it something that should be fully under a microscope with ideas of change? Where does one draw the line?

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Sure, but... Isn't canon Rikku also a mechanic? How can she work on Machina dressed like that, beach town or no?

She seems fairly parallel to Cidney is all I'm saying (I.e., Cidney isn't jumping the shark - they already jumped it).

I dunno man. It might not make sense, but Cindy just seems way more out of place than any other character, outfit wise

 

[Gbraga]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Cindy's outfit honestly. I think sexy outfits are cool. But I do think that male gaze direction when it comes to cutscenes and character introductions is pretty juvenile and embarrassing. Kojima has a huge problem with this in Metal Gear too. You can have a sexy outfit for a character. You can come up with a dozen "story" reasons to justify why a character might wear an outfit like that. But when the camera goes out of its way to mimic voyeuristic viewpoints and emphasizes the sexiness of a character for the sole purpose of titillation, that's no excuse for that other than the people making the product being perverted and naughty. And you know, that's okay too, if you want to be honest about it. But if you don't, and want to pretend to have some respectable reason to do it, then something something ashamed of words and deeds something.

Personally, my main issue with Cidney actually is the outfit. Specially when you consider that they probably wouldn't use those camera angles if she was dressing in a way that covered her whole body. Why would they zoom in on pants? It'd be pointless.

I also do think sexy outfits are cool, but her outfit is just... weird. This is still sexy, and very cool, imo:

(the one on the right is my favorite)

What makes it even worse, to me, is that I quite like Cidney. I like her voice, her personality, and I even enjoy the way the boys act around her, it's very silly.

That fanart costume would fit the world better, would be even more sexy (imo), and is just plain better.

BUT, that being said, I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't love this guy being this game's Cid:

There's something about blatant tumblr-fangirl bait like this that I find incredible.

Spoiler

It probably helps that they didn't show him wearing her shorts. That would also probably make me dislike the design a bit.

 

[Ran rp]

FFX-2 is a pop-styled take on the series, right? Those outfits don't really seem out of place and most are pretty tame (thief tho??). Is the issue with them using FFX characters instead of creating new ones?

 

[bigpumbaa]

To give another spin on this. I'm gay and this male cast is HOT.

I see Cindy's appeal, but there's no argueing the male cast has waaaay more clothes.

They do get knocked around a bit, but when you're in control of them - which is important.

I wonder what the reaction would be to a non sexualized group of ladies having a road trip with a dude getting knocked around back home.

 

[silva1991]

Let's not be crazy.

True. Rikku's design was always mindbogglingly bad and insulting.

I mean, if we take context into play, she was an island girl wearing a swimsuit with a skirt. The kind of outfit you'd see people walking around a beach town wearing. Cindy is like Daisy Duke taken up a couple notches

That doesn't excuse her for wearing it everywhere and during battle.

 

[YankeeDonB]

I actually really like a lot of the visual design of the various dresspheres in FFX-2. Sure, some are impractical or silly (like the above gambler ones), but I like the designs. For whatever reason, they feel far more appropriate in the context of the game than Cindy does in XV.

The only X-2 design I really hate is Labeau, and her minions for that matter.

I like a lot of them too, and I love that game's job system. But a lot of them are pure fan service is my point. It's revisionist to say XV is the first time the series has dabbled in fan service or somehow represents a clear new low.

 

[SOLDIER]

True. Rikku's design was always mindbogglingly bad and insulting.

The real problem was the extreme change to her personality, to which her English VA actually commented that she had played her up as a bisexual (referring to how she's practically groping the other girls in the hot spring).

 

[Inuhanyou]

I like a lot of them too, and I love that game's job system. But a lot of them are pure fan service is my point. It's revisionist to say XV is the first time the series has dabbled in fan service or somehow represents a clear new low.

Putting aside FFX-2..which i think is vile and cannot be defended in any way(Toriyama should never work on games again..)


I think its also disingenuous to say that some of the previous games were as bad or as overbearing about this kind of thing, or had the same issues we're seeing in FF15 based on the art, and so FF15 should not get critiqued, or the other games should be critiqued as hard about the same things.

Even if there was clothing fanservice, the characters themselves made up(a lot of the time) for whatever problems people may have had with those designs.

In FF15's case, all we can see is that Cindy is a mechanic who barely wears any clothes, is oogled at by the guys, and generally speaking, does not do much else besides that. And is postulated with car DLC, VR modes looking at her lady bits, and generally other amusing but equally transparent marketing bait.

Luna, has not shown herself as being much of a person just yet, so much as a princess waiting for Noctis the whole game, and generally they tend to have a habit of just showing her more victimized moments of the game.

That's far more of a concern to me in the here and now as someone who is expected to be hype for this game and these character's story.

 

[YankeeDonB]

Putting aside FFX-2..which i think is vile and cannot be defended in any way(Toriyama should never work on games again..)


I think its also disingenuous to say that some of the previous games were as bad or as overbearing about this kind of thing, or had the same issues we're seeing in FF15 based on the art, and so FF15 should not get critiqued, or the other games should be critiqued as hard about the same things.

Even if there was clothing fanservice, the characters themselves made up(a lot of the time) for whatever problems people may have had with those designs.

In FF15's case, all we can see is that Cindy is a mechanic who barely wears any clothes, is oogled at by the guys, and generally speaking, does not do much else besides that. And is postulated with car DLC, VR modes looking at her lady bits, and generally other amusing but equally transparent marketing bait.

Luna, has not shown herself as being much of a person just yet, so much as a princess waiting for Noctis the whole game, and generally they tend to have a habit of just showing her more victimized moments of the game.

That's far more of a concern to me in the here and now as someone who is expected to be hype for this game and these character's story.

I don't defend Cidney and I more or less agree with many points you and others have made in this thread. My objection is to the premature narrative that XV is an outlier in video game representation of women. There's lots of poor representation in lots of games. People should definitely keep talking about it, but there seems to be a lot of effort to make this game stand for the whole problem, or somehow represent a new and worrying low or some such.

And I'm not sure Tifa or Ashe being likeable makes up for their absurd outfits. Certainly it makes people less likely to make a big deal of their absurdity, but that's not the same thing.

And take Anne in P5 (who's a high school girl in latex fetish-wear, which, in some ways, and I say this as a Persona fan, is more reprehensible than a 20 year old daisy duke clone subjected to pervy camera angles), who, despite the occasional mention, has not become the derailing focus of 75% of P5 threads. Why not? Because people liked the character writing in the last couple Persona games? Because the menus are so snazzy?

Also, Cidney may end up being a fairly likeable character, ogle-bait aside, and I'm tired of talking about Luna, but 75% of the critique on her for now seems very premature without the whole game and her role therein for reference. You could easily make similar complaints about Celes, Beatrix, Garnett, Terra, Rinoa, Fran, Ashe, Lulu, Yuna, Rydia, and most of the other female characters in series history with a little scene cherry picking.

It's fine to critique what's been presented in marketing, but it's a little odd to defend inferences therefrom as iron-clad foregone conclusions.

 

[Yabberwocky]

And take Anne in P5 (who's a high school girl in latex fetish-wear, which, in some ways, and I say this as a Persona fan, is more reprehensible than a 20 year old daisy duke clone subjected to pervy camera angles), who, despite the occasional mention, has not become the derailing focus of 75% of P5 threads. Why not? Because people liked the character writing in the last couple Persona games? Because the menus are so snazzy?

I'm not delighted with aspects of Anne's design, let alone that official art of her and Futaba contorted into T&A poses. The fan-service beach scene could repeat the train wreck of those P3/P4 moments, too. I also think it's a bit hypocritical to have harassment as a plot point for her, but then have the ol' 'boys will be boys' sexual harassment for laughs with the player party car scene.

That being said, Anne's treatment doesn't annoy me nearly as much as poor ol' Cindy's treatment, as outside of her Panther get up, Anne dresses like an actual teenage girl in her day to day outfits. She wears skirts, she wears pants, she wears both heels and sneakers, and she's generally dressed pretty comfortably. Her default outfit is practical. Outside of two unfortunate animated scenes, the camera isn't constantly trying to ogle her. She absolutely has fan-service elements to her character, but we are shown many aspects to her outside of it. (Not as on topic, but it's great to see really positive impressions of Anne's character from those playing P5!)

Along with Anne, we've also got Makoto, Haru, and Futaba in leading roles. They all have varied personalities and designs, and there is a great synergy between their characters and their outfits. Soejima continues to be godly. Makoto is sharp, no-bullshit, and put together, and wears plain high turtle necks and tights. Haru's official outfit is a little bit more fun, with flowered tights and in the baggiest, comfiest sweater I've ever seen. Futaba's outfits are comfortable, casual chic. Their Phantom Thief designs are all very different from each other, and are all still absolutely a more eccentric fantasy, but fairly practical throughout. (I still think Haru's design is supposed to be more appealing to female player base, especially her Phantom Thief design.) The variety in the designs of the characters continues with the female co-op links. They are all attractive, but are still in clothes that people actually wear in day to day life. The fortune teller and the journalist are my favourites.

I'm not saying that both the playable characters and the supporting cast in P5 haven't been designed to be appealing, but the intention seems to have been to make characters first and foremost, that then have appealing designs be a part of that. When I look at Cindy, I unfortunately see fan-service. There aren't really any hints to her personality with her design. Aranea, at least, walks that design line a little bit better - anyone wandering around with metal spikes and a helmet are probably here to fuck your shit up. I really like Cindy in both the English and the Japanese versions (she's professional, she's got a good sense of humour, and she's likeable), but I don't get any of those aspects of her character from her design until she actually has dialogue. I think her most defining feature is her Hammerhead cap and jacket, which are great. I wish the rest of the design followed suit. I think the dissonance between her personality and her design is what annoys me the most. Cindy's personality is that of a cheery, no-bullshit, professional mechanic. Her design says that the FFXV dev team should spend a day working as a mechanic in that outfit, and see how they feel about it by the end of it.

I think there's a fine line between fan-service, appeal, and common sense, and the P5 team walk it much better than the FFXV team do.

I haven't played P5 or FFXV (psst, Square, you can totally send me an early copy), so I can only judge Anne and Cindy by what I've seen in advertisements and streams, and Cindy and Anne are treated very differently. Cindy, from her clothing design to how she is framed by the camera, seems to be specifically designed for fan-service, with her actual character less of a priority. Anne, whilst is definitely being objectified, is show to have many facets to her character in equal importance. Even if Anne had just been treated as just fan-service, we still have other female leads in Makoto, Haru, and Futaba to balance her. With FFXV, though we have my girl Luna as the lead, we only have Aranea, Gentiana, and Iris as supporting characters. FFXV is sadly much more of a mixed bag.

...you're not wrong, though, I am still 20% blinded by those snazzy P5 menus. My weakness.

ETA: Dear lord, I forgot about Morgana. I am the worst. P5 also gets props for the snarky, knowledgeable talking cat that poses with a cigar.

 

[the_batman]

That alt skin for the car.. oh baby

 

[TheFatMan]

I was following along with this thread for the good conversation. Now I just want to break out my copy of X2-Remastered and finally play it....

 

[Ganon Dragmire]

I really like Cindy in both the English and the Japanese versions (she's professional, she's got a good sense of humour, and she's likeable), but I don't get any of those aspects of her character from her design until she actually has dialogue. I think her most defining feature is her Hammerhead cap and jacket, which are great. I wish the rest of the design followed suit. I think the dissonance between her personality and her design is what annoys me the most. Cindy's personality is that of a cheery, no-bullshit, professional mechanic.

That is one of the most frustrating things about the Cindy thing is for me too. I like what little I know of her character, despite the accent, but her design is a constant reminder of why she is even in XV to begin with.

And even for people that love fan service, the design of the this type of outfit is both ugly and lazy.

 

[Turin]

In all honesty I wouldn't mind if they made her AC outfit DLC or something you could unlock. Her default is fine imo they just need to not go overboard with her chest this time.

My fingers are crossed for a default closer to the AC outfit. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[HeelPower]

Let's not be crazy.

Honestly?

I think its such a cool,badass looking design.

 

[Vlaphor]

That is one of the most frustrating things about the Cindy thing is for me too. I like what little I know of her character, despite the accent, but her design is a constant reminder of why she is even in XV to begin with.

And for people that love fan service, the design of the this type of outfit is both ugly and lazy.

I love fan service and I think the design of her outfit looks hot. Say what you will about anything else, but different people have different standards of what is attractive and what isn't.

 

[HeelPower]

Looking forward to seeing you guys defend the terrible and repetitive boss design in FFX. There's one or two particular sections where I'm REALLY gonna tear things up.

Boss design repetitive in FFX ?

If anything,each boss in FFX has a unique gimmick or twist about them.

Even up to very late in the game the trend continues with amazing string of bosses leading to Gagazet and Zanarkand.

 

[Ganon Dragmire]

Honestly?

I think its such a cool,badass looking design.

Eh... only thing I'll say about her outfit change from X to X-2 is that it's way less jarring than Yuna's. But still.

Speaking of X. Here's another awful one:

 

[Mailbox]

My personal opinions of each female character we have seen in FFXV:

Cindy: Is problematic, but as Duckroll said, its mostly with how the game itself (ie camera, etc) acts towards her. Nothing wrong with a sexy outfit if it makes sense (which it actually doesn't here, and that concept art that constantly goes around is 1000% better than what they landed on) but how a game treats it is an issue. We see other female NPCs around the same area (or was it 1 Npc... i don't remember) who seems to wear jeans and a tank top. I think that would have fit Cindy better tbh. I do think that we talk about her a bit much though. We really can't add anymore to the conversation about her since I'm pretty sure everything has been said. Not saying we should shut up and deal, just that conversations feel very same-y and circular when she (and Luna, but I'll get to that) is talked about.

Gentiana: She has a really good air to her, from her design and demeanor when we see her. There is so obviously something off about her that sends a tingle down my spine and yet it is definitely not in a villainous way. She seems like the kind of person who is secretly dangerous or very special and I like that a lot. Love her design, and love her almost sage like presence even though she is "Luna's attendant".

Aranea: Discussion relating to this character is extremely baffling to me tbh. Almost all of the arguing of her character or design is outdated and extremely old stuff that has either been rectified, edited, or is gone all together. I think a mod earlier in the thread was talking about 2 highly sexualized female characters, and I think Aranea was the other they were thinking about which is just nuts imo. Seriously, from the latest Pax footage we see how things have changed over the past 5 years with her. She now no longer has exposed thighs, she doesn't poledance in the air (which, if i may, I don't think Nomura meant that as sexy. I think in a sort of Anno way he just thought that looked cool, considering that scene we saw that in didn't feel sexy at all imo, but I digress), and yet she still has extreme presence when she is around. She STILL steal the scene when she comes on, both as being highly competent at fighting and at seeming above those she is fighting too (As is seen as she taunts Noctis prior to the fight we see.) I guess my issue is that people don't focus on how she is now, and instead always focus on the character art sketches and the 2011 V13 trailer.

As for her design, I LOVE it (especially now that the thigh thing is fixed). The hanging robes moving about making her look bigger and more intimidating as she moves, the helmet making her feel like an executioner, the red and black colour scheme is always a plus in my book :3, and I like how the armour plating is segmented with studs around with a red undercoat beneath; feels very industrial. The ONLY thing that I think could have been better is the fact is the cleavage in combat armour (and maybe the slight midriff, but that specifically is a nitpick), but truth be told I can actually overlook that. I honestly don't see how her outfit is in anyway worse to, lets say, Beatrix from FF9 who also emits the same feeling about her of dominance rather than sexiness.

Luna: This one is gonna get complicated so buckle up [and is also subject to change after I watch Kingsglaive ]. I honestly think that many people will joke about "strong character" when this game releases. BUT I really think thats more about people's expectation on what a "strong female character" is, rather than if Luna is actually strong or not. From the trailers, the talks, and how people reacted to Kingsglaive I think I actually get what Tabata was trying to say about why he thinks Luna is "strong". I don't think he means "can get out of shit" or "physically strong" but rather I think he was going for "deterministically strong".

Lets break it down a little. We don't know if she is a party member at all so lets throw out the idea that she can handle herself in a fight. Okay, so: what is her goal? Seemingly its about saving the world and ridding the plague of the stars. Apparently Noctis matters a lot to this goal and he's the one who has to take action to make her goal a reality, so it seems like she's gonna do the set-up to make sure he succeeds. In a way, kind of like an Aaron figure imo. Ever since the Dawn trailer we've seen that she has constantly been dealt shit hands (being beaten, having her country invaded, having to be a god whispering oracle, being beaten again (though to be fair, Noctis does get literally tortured in the same trailer), and also having to prop Noctis' whiny ass through) and yet she has never seen wavering from her ideals and goals. Considering the cards fate gave her and the responsibilities that are thrown on her and considering the opposition in front of her the fact that she can still even breath without so much as an anxious breath, i feel, is quite "strong". I've seen people in this thread talk about her being a foil to Noctis as being a bad thing, but rather I think its a good thing. From what we've seen, she's support for Noctis' journey but may actually be the perfect kind of support character. One who guilds the MC to what they have to do even if the MC could care less. Noctis, more or less, serves as a means to an end for Luna's goals. In a way... Noctis is kinda like Luna's automated multi-tool, i'd say... in a way...

Edit: just for clarity, I want to say that Noctis has been very shaky and lacking determination and motivation in a LOT of stuff we have seen. He seems more like he's just going with things rather than planning into things. Luna is a stark contrast to that and I feel cements Noctis' poorer character points (which may in turn lead to character development). In this way, Luna acts as a emotional version of the X-Zero relationship in Mega Man X (or at least thats the feeling I get from what we have seen )

Idk, I guess I just think Luna fits into a different kind of strength than people may think. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

On the topic of "STELLA!!!!":
Can we stop with the idea of Stella being somehow magically a better and more "strong character" than Luna. Its kinda ridiculous since the only strong thing we've seen of the character was in a trailer where it has even been said iirc that those CGI were just "Nomura's ideas" and nothing actually substantive. From the only moments we saw of her in game, she seemed more like a Juliet than anything else. And not the Romeo x Juliet one where she was a vigilante badass, either.


Basically, lets all just move on from FFvs13 and stop thinking about the "what ifs" as the "what would have actuallys".

Also, we may actually want to wait for the game to come out before making blanket statements on anything other than Cindy's attire and its relationship with the camera


Edit2: Shit, forgot about Iris.

So,
Iris: Very obviously trying to be a lil' sister anime archtype even though she is a grown woman. The animations for her in cut-scenes is pretty laughable, but its something I'll deal with. Watching the 50 min video a few times I got used to it. Tbh, I just think they over did the exaggeration in the animation which resulted in her feeling jerky and spazzy. Though that being said some cutscenes she seems fine (like when talking about Luna, or the second option when asked about the whole date comment. ) I honestly feel like if they toned down her animation a bit it'd be fine. Nothing really offensive about her from what I can tell, they just didn't do her quite right. I can learn to deal with it. Really like her outfit though. Especially the ninja print on her cloths :3.

 

[Neoleo2143]

I think if Cindy was more in a tank top, her design would be much more receptive while still being "Sexy". Of course they would have to fix some of the camera angles but the base art would lend less of a opportunity for voyeuristic camera angles.

As for her character itself, it's actually fine, it's certainly less boring than Luna. She does flirt and stuff but it seems to convey a person who is actually having fun rather than being romantically interested.It also doesn't hurt that she doesn't seem to be an idiot as the appearance would suggest. Not to mention, if Episode Duscae's in the game still, she's the one who allows the boys on their journey, which does give her a reasonable influence over the narrative. So it seems, Cindy's main issue boils down to her visual aesthetic as opposed to Luna's narrative presentation (mostly because she's so one note that it's silly).

I don't think there's nearly enough info on the other females in the story to draw a conclusion about them.

 

[wmlk]

There's a lot of fixation about Luna helping Noctis so I thought I'll just post some thoughts:

Yes, from everything being told Luna's intention is to help Noctis in his quest. That's not just her, though. Lliterally every key character who aren't in the opposition's side exist to help Noctis. This includes Gladio, Ignis, Prompto, Cor, Cid, Gentiana and maybe Iris (she's just Gladio's sis for now). The entire story is about helping Noctis, and the game's theme song "Stand By Me" is about that too.

"In Final Fantasy XV, “Stand by Me” is not intended to be a love song but rather a kind of prayer or message from the protagonist, Noctis Lucis Caelum. Tabata says the image he has in mind is that of the song being heard in a church. The song expresses his gratitude for the important people in his life, such as his father, his friends, and his betrothed, Lunafreya Nox Fleuret; the song is his way of saying, “Thank you for being with me.” The theme has less to do with sentimentality and more to do with prayer. For fear of spoiling key plot points, Tabata could not say much else."


Noctis recognizes this (he seemingly calls them his bodyguards in a moment of tension), and his friends acknowledge this too:

Noctis: ...I'm not on this journey alone, so...Thanks. For coming this far with me.
Gladio: Heh. Took you long enough.
Ignis: Happy to be of service.

So, I feel like Luna is being fixated upon for this issue when this "issue" (it really isn't an issue) spreads across every character in the game. This is Noctis' story to reclaim his throne.

Now, the problem is that this isn't being represented justly for female characters since the story is from the perspective of Noctis and his close male friends. We see Ignis, Gladio, and Prompto actively helping out in the story and gameplay. We see Luna doing this as well throughout the story, but she doesn't get nearly the same screen time to do these things with her not being as big of a focus. We see her act politically in a position of power (just from her place in the story), we see her vowing drive out the Darkness and restore the Light (nights are getting longer in FFXV's world, she's fighting against that somehow), and we see her fight against Leviathan. On the other hand, we also see her get abused by top brass in Niflheim since her home country has been invaded by them. She gets abused on screen once as a kid and once as an adult. It's really shitty that she gets tossed around in a couple of the rare appearances we've seen of her, but I don't get how this makes her weak when we don't know the outcome. What about if she in some way overcomes what Ardyn and Niflheim are throwing against her ever since she was a child? Wouldn't that be a moment of strength instead of weakness? It's very possible that she'll overcome everything she's faced ever since she was a child and her home was invaded, and it wouldn't be for the sake of Noctis either as this is her own internal struggle. The Dawn trailer shows that Noctis was pampered as a child. Luna's the one who went through a lot more in those 12 years.

Remember, Luna is going against the villains. The obvious outcome is that the villains will lose in this story. It's very likely that Luna will win with the rest of the good characters, and in the process she could be victorious over her own struggles. To me, it's obvious what the story setup is. It's not just the developers getting off on her being abused.

Obviously, none of this could happen or the execution could leave a lot to be desired. I think the latter is possible, especially since we're going to focus on Noctis and his gang and we may only hear about Luna instead of experiencing key moments in her character arc. I'm just saying that there's a lot of jumping to conclusions right now when we've only seen the beginning.

 

[Spman2099]

The representation of women in this game is going to be a big hurdle that FFXV will have to past for me. it would have been far less of an issue for me if the comments from the people involved with the game weren't so unfortunate. I hope this is something we can all laugh about after the game is released. Something that is put to bed once we see how well the game is written and how all of this ends up serving the story in a positive way.

 

[HeelPower]

Eh... only thing I'll say about her outfit change from X to X-2 is that it's way less jarring than Yuna's. But still.

Speaking of X. Here's another awful one:

Can't argue with that.Such an odd design ,and she's a summoner too lol.

But Dona is ultimately a likeable character and FF needs more supporting characters like this to give life to the world.

 

[Zhutchka]

Why does Cindy need a justification to wear an unpractical, revealing outfit while doing mechanic work, while they main cast get a pass for going on a grand adventure (most likely to save their kingdom, perhaps the world as well) in designer clothes? It's a stylised game, where the whole cast dress in a certain way just to look cool. Now, I don't think neither the main cast nor Cindy look particularly cool, but that's a matter of taste and it's completely unproblematic. In a game where the entire cast wear consistently nonsensical outfits for their task at hand, showing skin does not put Cindy at a disadvantage, because there is nothing inherently wrong with showing skin - unless you have a really repressive mindset.

I do understand and agree with observations and/or criticisms about how she's been used in promotional material and how the camera treats her from what we've seen, and it's a shame if that's the purpose of her creation, though I think that's still a bit early to judge. But as I noted earlier - and that's really been confirmed in the last few pages - some people do get completely hung up on the outfit alone, and that's imo even more sexist than a purely Otaku-bait Cindy. Again, in FFXV no one is dressing up to the task, so why is this aspect of Cindy particularly an issue?

 

[Spman2099]

Why does Cindy need a justification to wear an unpractical, revealing outfit while doing mechanic work, while they main cast get a pass for going on a grand adventure (most likely to save their kingdom, perhaps the world as well) in designer clothes? It's a stylised game, where the whole cast dress in a certain way just to look cool. Now, I don't think neither the main cast nor Cindy look particularly cool, but that's a matter of taste and it's completely unproblematic. In a game where the entire cast wear consistently nonsensical outfits for their task at hand, showing skin does not put Cindy at a disadvantage, because there is nothing inherently wrong with showing skin - unless you have a really repressive mindset.

I think the big difference is that the male cast IS meant to look cool, but Cindy is there to look desirable. That is the problem. In the end if there is a variety of interesting characters that feel diverse and fleshed out it will cease being a problem. Unfortunately, everything we have seen so far seems to imply that FFXV has a problem with women and how it represents them.

 

[Zhutchka]

I think the big difference is that the male cast IS meant to look cool, but Cindy is there to look desirable. That is the problem. In the end if there is a variety of interesting characters that feel diverse and fleshed out it will cease being a problem. Unfortunately, everything we have seen so far seems to imply that FFXV has a problem with women and how it represents them.

The main cast of FFXV, who have been getting endlessly likened to boy bands ever since the reveal a decade ago, is not designed to look desirable? What is the purpose of their design then? To highlight their unique philosophy and approach to life? They might not look desirable to the typical 20-30 year old male, or to anyone with a good sense of fashion, but cleary the purpose of of their designs is to make them looking good, just as Cindy's.

 

[Inuhanyou]

.

 

[Derpot]

Sometimes, as a woman, I wonder. Why is it so hard for some game developers to create good female characters who don't have a stupid design.

 

[Ganon Dragmire]

Sometimes, as a woman, I wonder. Why is it so hard for some game developers to create good female characters who don't have a stupid design.

They can, but they won't. The reasons are plenty and all shitty. They don't see it as an issue, their minds are in the gutter all the time, they wanna pander to the LCD, etc, etc, etc.

While we're on the topic of awful design (and waiting for that Iris update I guess haha), I was reminded of another occurring thing in FFs. (that many other games are guilty of too.)

A few hours ago SE showed off updates for FFXIV including this:

This will be an upcoming boss fight of FFVI's Goddess of the Warring Triad.

And it reminded me that every time there's a group of villains, like the Four Feinds, or monsters and any one happens to be female, it's the same BS. They are attractive humanoids wearing just enough to get a T rating.

 

[Derpot]

They can, but they won't. The reasons are plenty and all shitty. They don't see it as an issue, their minds are in the gutter all the time, they wanna pander to the LCD, etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, I know all that, unfortunately. But sometimes it looks like that they will be ruined forever if they dare create a female character who wears normal pants.
(I hate that in Fire Emblem Fates, when I look at the Female Cavalier outfit, why the fuck do they have a thong whereas Male Cavalier has pants, really)

 

[Mediking]

Let's not be crazy.

Huge fan of Riku. Great character.