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[f@luS]

Hi

Sorry to start another thread, ive read dozen here on neogaf , avs, and im still in the dark (literally speaking)

I got an LG oled (2016)

i got my PS4 on rgb full and tv black level high , for gaming (could turn both limited but whatever its the same result i tried)

I use my xbox one for Bluray, and gaming and im totally lost

I see no difference whatsoever on xbox one, when i put standart or Pc color space

I mean

Standart (xbox) low level (tv) = black (or crushed?)
PC (xbox) low level (tv) = same
Standart (xbox) high level (tv) = grey (or correct color?)
PC (xbox) high level (tv) = same

What i dont get , even if the xbox one has issue with full rgb result shouldnt be like that

on another thread i found this :

i can see 4 row only with my tv on full , and i will see them four with the xbox either at standart or pc.
i though limited was the way to go....


My tv is supposed to have deep black

i took 2 photos of ORI which has black area, which one is supposed to be correct



or



i would say the first one as i shouldnt be able to see the edge of the tv, but in that setting i dont see the "16" row of the previous picture


im totally at lost, even after reading multiple thread about this

 

[hamster3 3]

I find with the Xbox it's best to just set it to limited and forget about it.

 

[f@luS]

https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/4bdrqw/psa_old_response_to_crushed_blacks_and_fix/


i found this as well, and they say that the xbox one need to be set on limited , and the tv in full , or else its crushed black....

another thing that i dont get

edit :
http://forums.xbox.com/xbox_support/xbox_one_support/f/4269/t/1661999.aspx

again here, saying to not put rgb full on xbox (ok..) but even on limited, the tv need to be set to full otherwise its crushed

"All of you are correct in describing how RGB Full and RGB Limited are SUPPOSED to work.
On every device I own EXCEPT the Xbox 360 and Xbox One, the options for RGB Limited and RGB Full DO work this way.
On the Xbox 360 and Xbox One, however, the RGB Limited option outputs RGB Full, and the RGB Full option is completely broken."

seems what i am witnessing...

so i should put my tv to full and xbox to limited , to have the closest correct picture?

 

[dealer-]

so i should put my tv to full and xbox to limited , to have the closest correct picture?

Your blacks will look grey if you do that, just go with standard on xbox and limited for tv.

 

[f@luS]

Your blacks will look grey if you do that, just go with standard on xbox and limited for tv.

even though i cant see the right "16" black level on the picture above?

edit : even on avforum they consider xbox limited tv full saying that even on limited the xbox is outputting full , and in full the xbox is totally broken :

https://www.avforums.com/threads/xbox-one-colour-space-fix.1851103/

 

[VE3TRO]

For my Samsung LEDs it's always been like this for me.

• TV Black Level - Low
• Xbox One - Standard
• Result - Perfect, all black and white levels can be seen

• TV Black Level - Low
• Xbox One - PC RGB
• Result - Crushed black and blown white

• TV Black Level - Normal
• Xbox One - PC RGB
• Result - Minimal blown whites and crushed blacks

• TV Black Level - Normal
• Xbox One - Standard
• Result - Weak contrast, whites are gray and blacks are dark gray.

I still had to calibrate brightness, contrast, white balance and I adjusted bits in the Samsung hidden service menu under ADC/WB. Now though I've moved over to a VG24QE and using the SRGB with again some adjusts in the service menu to the offset, gain and color temp.

 

[dealer-]

even though i cant see the right "16" black level on the picture above?

How are you viewing that picture on your Xbox? Apps such as Edge still crush blacks.

 

[f@luS]

How are you viewing that picture on your Xbox? Apps such as Edge still crush blacks.

only way i tried indeed...
any specific game to test if black are crushed?

 

[dark10x]

Do not use full RGB on Xbox One. It is broken. You will get black crush.

You need to set your display to limited as well as the XO.

I've tested this extensively and, when outputting limited, shadow detail is preserved. Using full destroys shadow detail and it cannot be made visible. So it is not always outputting full.

 

[dealer-]

only way i tried indeed...
any specific game to test if black are crushed?

Have you got a Sony blu ray? I use Casino Royale. If you input 7669 when on the movie menu you can get a few test patterns. Can't think of any games that do this. Anyway, you should use something other than Edge to calibrate.

Do not use full RGB on Xbox One. It is broken. You will get black crush.

You need to set your display to limited as well as the XO.

I thought it had been fixed? I see no difference when my Xbox/TV is set to Standard/Limited and PC RGB/Full now.

 

[dark10x]

Have you got a Sony blu ray? I use Casino Royale. If you input 7669 when on the movie menu you can get a few test patterns. Can't think of any games that do this. Anyway, you should use something other than Edge to calibrate.

I thought it had been fixed? I see no difference when my Xbox/TV is set to Standard/Limited and PC RGB/Full now.

I'm using a capture card for testing (in addition to my TV) and shadow details are crushed on the lossless, non-processed capture card feed when using full.

 

[VE3TRO]

only way i tried indeed...
any specific game to test if black are crushed?

Some games seem better than others. I've like to use the FIFA brightness menu as a test in the past, it has a test pattern for colors and blacks/whites.

 

[f@luS]

Do not use full RGB on Xbox One. It is broken. You will get black crush.

You need to set your display to limited as well as the XO.

I've tested this extensively and, when outputting limited, shadow detail is preserved. Using full destroys shadow detail and it cannot be made visible. So it is not always outputting full.

this is what i though , but did you see my first post about my results and the link i provided?
things seems dark for me on both limited....

Have you got a Sony blu ray? I use Casino Royale. If you input 7669 when on the movie menu you can get a few test patterns. Can't think of any games that do this. Anyway, you should use something other than Edge to calibrate.



I thought it had been fixed? I see no difference when my Xbox/TV is set to Standard/Limited and PC RGB/Full now.

how to input this with a xbox controller ? i have this bluray

 

[dealer-]

I'm using a capture card for testing (in addition to my TV) and shadow details are crushed on the lossless, non-processed capture card feed when using full.

Interesting, thanks. There is no benefit to PC RGB anyway on TV is there, so Standard/Limited is the way to go.

how to input this with a xbox controller ? i have this bluray

From the main menu you should be able to get a keypad up by pressing the menu button on the controller.

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

even though i cant see the right "16" black level on the picture above?

edit : even on avforum they consider xbox limited tv full saying that even on limited the xbox is outputting full , and in full the xbox is totally broken :

https://www.avforums.com/threads/xbox-one-colour-space-fix.1851103/

This is true and my main gripe that's been since launch. Gamma on xbox is completely screwed. I game on a RGB computer monitor. If I select Limited (TV) I get true black at 0 and can see the different boxes above. However, I don't get true black in the actual broadcast/games, dash, ect. No amount of configuration on monitor will fix it. If I use RGB (PC) I don't get a difference in black between 0 and 16. However, games black level test come out perfect.

TLDR; it's completely borked.
And to be clear, this happen on xbox video calibration and AVS' Gray scale and color patterns calibration videos.

 

[f@luS]

so the best is seth both to limited and deal wth unapropriate level? ;(

 

[dark10x]

so the best is seth both to limited and deal wth unapropriate level? ;(

Why would it be inappropriate using limited/limited?

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

so the best is seth both to limited and deal wth unapropriate level? ;(

I just run RGB full and deal with black crush on some stuff. The limited raises my gamma way too much and what's suppose to be Black (16)/Below Black (0) ends up Dark grey (16)/Black (0). Drives me nutty. Lol.
Keep in mind this is on a computer monitor, not a TV, so it may take different setting for you.
Edit: the strange thing is, my 10 year old Sony TV does this same thing, except much worse. Limited on Sony TV actually gives me Full range, doesn't clip and I adjust the black and contrast levels to fit. My TV doesnt even support RGB. These settings shouldn't work this way.

 

[thenameDS]

I've used Full on my Sony TV and Standard on the Xbox since I can remember. The blacks don't look grey for me and with that image with 28 squares I can see them all.

I'll test Limited on my TV once I get home and see if there is a difference.

 

[Izuna]

EDGE BROWSER (and other apps) HAS A BROKEN COLOUR SPACE -- so every single thread where people say they can't see that image, THAT's what's happening.

Games themselves are fine (as of now). But if you're using the browser or picture viewer, then everything is crushed so to view them you'd have to set your console to limited on a screen that is full.

But if you do that and go into a game, you'll get grey instead of black

--

This is Microsoft's fault

so i should put my tv to full and xbox to limited , to have the closest correct picture?

If you want it to be fucked during gameplay but work during your browser, fine.

 

[infinityBCRT]

Do not use full RGB on Xbox One. It is broken. You will get black crush.

You need to set your display to limited as well as the XO.

I've tested this extensively and, when outputting limited, shadow detail is preserved. Using full destroys shadow detail and it cannot be made visible. So it is not always outputting full.

What about with HDR?...


... sorry, just busting your balls ;-).

I'm getting my KS8000 this weekend so I'm anxious to see how the setup works in that case. I'm really hoping there's no black crush issues in 4K/HDR.

 

[f@luS]

Why would it be inappropriate using limited/limited?

because of the link i provided that seems to go along with what im seeing and wrote in my first post

running Disney wow to check now....

 

[Izuna]

because of the link i provided that seems to go along with what im seeing and wrote in my first post

running Disney wow to check now....

see above

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

EDGE BROWSER (and other apps) HAS A BROKEN COLOUR SPACE -- so every single thread where people say they can't see that image, THAT's what's happening.

Games themselves are fine (as of now). But if you're using the browser or picture viewer, then everything is crushed so to view them you'd have to set your console to limited on a screen that is full.

But if you do that and go into a game, you'll get grey instead of black

--

This is Microsoft's fault

I get the same results by the Xbox video calibration and using "Play to" from computer for the avs videos. I guess those are technically apps, so you may have a point. I do get gray instead of black in the games if I go to limited.

 

[dark10x]

because of the link i provided that seems to go along with what im seeing and wrote in my first post

running Disney wow to check now....

Yeah, but they used Alan Wake in one of the examples which is an entirely different can of worms (the BC black levels were completely broken independent of the limited/full issue).

Again, I'm using a capture card here which accepts the raw input from Xbox One without any additional processing. If you look at the image data and the results, you can see that limited/limited is the only way to achieve correct visuals while playing Xbox One games.

I do not know how this applies to films (Blu-ray content) as I have't tested it. I also don't know if BC was fixed but, when I tested Alan Wake, it was a problem with the emulation NOT the console RGB settings. Setting it to full on the TV and limited on XO would potentially fix that issue but still result in an incorrect image. Then there is the separate issue with some of the system's apps.

For actual Xbox One games, however, you want to use limited/limited.

 

[f@luS]

just checked Disney wow, i guess youre right (dont mind the crappy pics )


TV limited / Xbox limited



TV limited / xbox full



seems that putting full on tv is giving me washed out IQ , at least it means :

-bluray ( as my Disney wow is) is correctly limited for xbox one so TV has to be limited
-Games, that seems too dark for me, is it possible theyre forcing at full mode even when the xbox is that to limited?
-Forza 3 in HDR seems a bit dark, is HDR mode ingame in limited as the xbox , or does it force full?

 

[dark10x]

-Games, that seems too dark for me, is it possible theyre forcing at full mode even when the xbox is that to limited?
-Forza 3 in HDR seems a bit dark, is HDR mode ingame in limited as the xbox , or does it force full?

No. It has nothing to do with full/limited.

It's due to the bizarre gamma space used on the Xbox consoles and the way some games make use of it.

The full/limited thing is unrelated to that. You really want to stay in limited/limited.

Any black crush beyond that is related to the individual game and you can only really try to correct it using in-game tools.

For Forza Horizon 3, again, stay in limited. It definitely does not force full.

The thing is, the capture card we're using expects only full. If you feed it limited, you get a completely washed out image. The Xbox One never outputs full when set to limited. Games are no hijacking that setting.

You're basically barking up the wrong tree here and, yeah, it sucks.

 

[f@luS]

ok so if i find some games too dark, i need to adjust ingame settings , not tv or xbox

both stay limited/limited


damn its so much better on my ps4 ( i have a standard mode in limited as it force limited for bluray, and a game mode in full , with ps4 full and everything is perfect)

 

[Izuna]

Three things:

1. You are not seeing a difference between limited/limited and full/full anyway so stop stressing yourself

2. dark10x is talking about a barely visible, permanent problem with full/full on Xbone (messed up gamma curve)

3. Apps crush everything and can only be seen properly in limited/full, but this will mess up the games.

 

[Oppo]

i can't believe this is still a thing.

how is this still a thing. even on the S?

 

[guitarguy316]

I have an E6. My settings are TV black level low and standard/limited on Xbox/PS4. Looks great to me. For forza, make sure you adjust BOTH regular and HDR brightness settings in the game menu exactly how it says.

 

[shiftplusone]

You should use a receiver so this problem is expounded by the fact that your two options are:

A. Xbox is "correct"

B. literally every other device you own is correct

These are your only 2 choices and it's shit. I can't believe MS let's this continue to be a problem

 

[EvB]

i can't believe this is still a thing.

how is this still a thing. even on the S?

As discussed it's a developer issue, if they haven't implemented it correctly then the game won't display correctly.

 

[f@luS]

Three things:

1. You are not seeing a difference between limited/limited and full/full anyway so stop stressing yourself

2. dark10x is talking about a barely visible, permanent problem with full/full on Xbone (messed up gamma curve)

3. Apps crush everything and can only be seen properly in limited/full, but this will mess up the games.

I guess everything is fine

If I understand right 8bits are older tv 10bits is hdr and 12 bits is Dolby vision ? My lg does support it then what should I put on Xbox setting (as games and movies are hdr not DV ) 10 or 12 bits ?

 

[ZOONAMI]

Using the calibration tool full and full works for me on my Panasonic 4k set.

 

[Izuna]

I guess everything is fine

If I understand right 8bits are older tv 10bits is hdr and 12 bits is Dolby vision ? My lg does support it then what should I put on Xbox setting (as games and movies are hdr not DV ) 10 or 12 bits ?

Actually um, Xbox One S games/content are only 8-bit so far. It won't really matter what mode you put it on atm.

If you have an HDR10 TV, I don't see why you wouldn't put it on 8 (isn't it called 30 in the settings?).

I don't know if UHD requires you to do that.

 

[EvB]

I guess everything is fine

If I understand right 8bits are older tv 10bits is hdr and 12 bits is Dolby vision ? My lg does support it then what should I put on Xbox setting (as games and movies are hdr not DV ) 10 or 12 bits ?

You won't have a 12bit panel, so you definitely don't need to use that setting.

 

[Pagusas]

You should use a receiver so this problem is expounded by the fact that your two options are:

A. Xbox is "correct"

B. literally every other device you own is correct

These are your only 2 choices and it's shit. I can't believe MS let's this continue to be a problem

This is why you get a receiver with 2 HDMI outputs and run them to seperate inputs on your tv. If you cant do that, use an HDMI duplicator, they are cheap. My reciever has 3 HDMI outputs (a duplicated monitor 2 out, and a zone 3 output that can be seperate from the source you are watching.)

So while my recievers default output is usually to HDMI 2 on the TV, when I'm playing the Xbox One S I'm using HDMI 3 set to limited levels on the TV.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Don't own an Xbox one but I own a plasma and I set black level to low. I think setting your OLED to high might kill your shadow detail. Shouldn't be necessary to set it on high.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Actually um, Xbox One S games/content are only 8-bit so far. It won't really matter what mode you put it on atm.

If you have an HDR10 TV, I don't see why you wouldn't put it on 8 (isn't it called 30 in the settings?).

I don't know if UHD requires you to do that.

If you have a 10 bit panel that doesn't support hdr, like myself. Colors look better in 4k blu-rays this way to me, but maybe it's a placebo.

Movies support 10 bit and wider color gamut I think?

My settings are 4k, rgb color gamut on xbox and tv, 10 bit setting enabled on xbox. Calibration tool does not show crushed blacks and colors in 4k blurays look better than with the 8 bit setting .

 

[CanUKlehead]

(Bah, for a hot second I thought they had officially announced a black Xbox One S.)

 

[Karak]

We covered this on the channel with TV techs from Samsung and LG. Limited is the way to go on the Xbox One systems at this time sadly. It is also known that some apps have incorrect output as well. So its mighty hard to check sometimes.

 

[EvB]

If you have a 10 bit panel that doesn't support hdr, like myself. Colors look better in 4k blu-rays this way to me, but maybe it's a placebo.

Movies support 10 bit and wider color gamut I think?

My settings are 4k, rgb color gamut on xbox and tv, 10 bit setting enabled on xbox. Calibration tool does not show crushed blacks and colors in 4k blurays look better than with the 8 bit setting .

If you have a 10 bit panel, then it likely has deep color support and perhaps can accept some of the newer wide color gamut formats.

Which in itself is not HDR, but would certainly be beneficial.
The only remaining part of the HDR picture you would then be missing is to have some super extreme contrast ratio due to fancy backlight control.
What model of TV is it out of interest?

 

[ZOONAMI]

If you have a 10 bit panel, then it likely has deep color support and perhaps can accept some of the newer wide color gamut formats.

Which in itself is not HDR, but would certainly be beneficial.
The only remaining part of the HDR picture you would then be missing is to have some super extreme contrast ratio due to fancy backlight control.
What model of TV is it out of interest?

It has a contrast AI setting and blacks are very nice as are whites. Panasonic 65Ax800U, looks great and contrast is close to my old plasma. It is a 10-bit panel with rec 2020 support supposedly, but no rec 2020 available in settings. I have it set to Native, as I imagine that is wider than the other options.

What is kind of weird is that there is both a nonstandard, standard, and Auto setting for color in the HDMI settings, and then another color space setting with rec 709, native, ebu and some other ones but not 2020.

Tv is showing a 4:4:4 4k pure direct signal coming from the xbox one which seems to confirm that rgb color is working.

4k blurays look amazing. I've done a lot of tinkering and have everything looking the great vs other calibration settings.

 

[f@luS]

You won't have a 12bit panel, so you definitely don't need to use that setting.

I though Dolby vision means 12bits ? Anyway hdr is 10 bits so if I use my Xbox one a for uhd i should put 10 bits ? Just checked on xmen which has a lot of color it looks a bit better but maybe it's placebo

 

[f@luS]

It's my last question of this subject 🤘🏻🙏🏻

 

[dcx4610]

"Full" mode is intended for computer monitors which natively take a 0-255 RGB color range.

TVs and even modern TVs work on "Limited" RGB which is a range of 16-255. Sadly, the phrase "limited" is what makes people second-guess themselves and feel they are missing out on something and want to set it to full. The RGB range is simply telling the display where black begins.

If you set your Xbox One to "Full", most TVs are going to crush the blacks since it thinks you are hooked to a computer monitor and the blacks begin at 0. The TV itself is expecting blacks to start at 16. If you set your Xbox One to Limited, you will be properly set to 16-255. You aren't missing anything and the calibration what it should be.

Your TV also plays a role. You need to make sure your TV RGB level matches what you set your console too. If your TV has an "Auto" setting, that is your best bet since it will detect the signal and properly convert it.

The best way to test this, especially on the Xbox One is run the calibration mode. Set your Xbox One to Full and then look at the eye test. No matter how high you adjust your brightness, you shouldn't be able to see the eye because your blacks will be crushed. Turn on Limited and now you should see the eye as the RGB levels are set properly.

Recap:

Xbox > Limited > TV > Auto/Limited

 

[f@luS]

Thanks but what about my last "bits" question ?

 

[Head.spawn]

I set mine to limited/auto, then used the calibration tool the Xbox One has, got everything as best I could... done.

 

[dcx4610]

Thanks but what about my last "bits" question ?

That is the "Deep Color" option. If you have a 1080p (8-bit panel) TV, 24 bit is the correct setting. If you have a 4k TV (10-bit panel), 30 bit is correct.

There aren't any consumer level TVs that support 36 bit color depth yet nor is there any content.

4k Blu-rays are the first to support 30 bit color. If you have a 4k TV, setting the Xbox One to 36 bit won't hurt anything but 30 is proper.