Zoe
Member
It says they fired simultaneously
And that can happen when the officer holding the gun has a different vantage point from the officer holding the taser.
It says they fired simultaneously
Discussion helps gain understanding of events... and it is okay to talk for the sake of it. I don't think everyone necessarily needs to be a legislator or activist to put in their two cents.
I read this in the op presumably from the Reuters link beneath it
Fire two tazers at the same time and maybe you've successfully used non lethal means. Fire a tazer/gun combo at the same time and you look inept. You have to give one a chance to work otherwise they both may as well have had guns in hand and shelved the taser.
Is there a police force in the world whose armed units don't shoot for center mass?
If we had a better medical system to help that man, then it's less likely that the police would ever have to respond to this kind of scenario at all.
I mean, you've got to keep in mind this is happening in a space of few seconds. From what I understand, the timeline is something like
-Officers approach, tell the man to remove his hands from his pockets
-He doesn't
-Officers draw a gun and a taser, tell him again
-He doesn't
-Suddenly he pulls out something from his pocket, points it at one officer
-Both officers go "Oh FUCK I don't want to die" , fire gun and taser
I guess I can understand the critique that they shouldn't have approached at all without a mental health professional... But after they made the decision to approach, I dunno what they should've done differently. Maybe you could say, they shouldn't have pulled out a gun at all. The guy just has his hands in his pockets, why would you assume he might have a gun? And that may be true in the UK, but this is the US. Cops generally assume anyone could have a gun, because they're so prevalent. It's tragic and horrible, but it's the state of things.
This is extremely insulting to those of us with family members who suffer from mental illness. Please re-think this.
LMAO no. I work with children that range from EBD to DCD. If you have mental health issues and you haven't adressed them by the time you're older than 30 it's clearly your caretakers fault. Where was his aide? Was he on meds? Why if he was SOOO disabled or had mental health issues were there not people assissting him? His sister left him behind a dumpster? No sympathy from me.
LMAO no. I work with children that range from EBD to DCD. If you have mental health issues and you haven't adressed them by the time you're older than 30 it's clearly your caretakers fault. Where was his aide? Was he on meds? Why if he was SOOO disabled or had mental health issues were there not people assissting him? His sister left him behind a dumpster? No sympathy from me.
A taser has to be precise to actually work. What happens if a gun is drawn in the time it takes the cop with the taser to line up their shot? What happens if a gun is drawn the moment the taser is disengaged?
Spain for example,but in general police in EU tries to deescalate first,use advanced techniques like warning shots and talking.
There was a post in another thread that kinda goes over the differences.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=217710293&postcount=28
Under the European Convention of Human Rights, police can only shoot if its absolutely necessary in order to achieve a legitimate law enforcement purpose. Meanwhile, in the US, police officers can shoot if theres reasonable perception of a grave and imminent threat, which is a far more subjective standard.
LMAO no. I work with children that range from EBD to DCD. If you have mental health issues and you haven't adressed them by the time you're older than 30 it's clearly your caretakers fault. Where was his aide? Was he on meds? Why if he was SOOO disabled or had mental health issues were there not people assissting him? His sister left him behind a dumpster? No sympathy from me.
Just take the risk and wait a fraction of a second for their brain to process if the man did in fact have a gun. Not capable or willing to take that risk don't be a cop. Cops should be really doing some type of traiing on a regular basis to insure they have the best possible reaction speed. As simple as an app on their phone that flashes a pic you look at it and identify the threat and react. With body cam video, you could easily update the exact video to every cop in America so they can learn and see real threats vs non threatening behavoirs.
So taser guy should get no penalty since he had the right idea. The prick who killed a mentally disabled person deserves 1st degree.
Oh pish posh. You know the one who shot him will be rewarded and the guy with the taser will be fired for endangering a fellow officer's life.This is absolutely insane.
Just take the risk and wait a fraction of a second for their brain to process if the man did in fact have a gun. Not capable or willing to take that risk don't be a cop. Cops should be really doing some type of traiing on a regular basis to insure they have the best possible reaction speed. As simple as an app on their phone that flashes a pic you look at it and identify the threat and react. With body cam video, you could easily update the exact video to every cop in America so they can learn and see real threats vs non threatening behavoirs.
This is absolutely insane.
It's not really fair to compare European policing and US policing as the latter have a much riskier job due to the prevalence of guns in US society. It's a very different situation.
Oh pish posh. You know the one who shot him will be rewarded and the guy with the taser will be fired for endangering a fellow officer's life.
Since he actively threatened the officer's life by aiming an object at him I guess we're good here?Cops infuriate me, every time there's a shooting I always hear from one person "they should have listened to the cop's orders." First thing I think is fuck them, I'm not taking orders from some jackass who likely didn't even go to college and did some police academy training who likely gets paid jackshit but feels like a badass cause they have a gun. And just because I don't follow their orders to the letter does not give them authority to kill people.
Whether you're black, white, yellow, or purple they have no right to harm or kill you unless you actively threaten their life but at that point that's true for any living creature on the planet imo.
Spain for example,but in general police in EU tries to deescalate first,use advanced techniques like warning shots and talking.
There was a post in another thread that kinda goes over the differences.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=217710293&postcount=28
Under the European Convention of Human Rights, police can only shoot if its absolutely necessary in order to achieve a legitimate law enforcement purpose. Meanwhile, in the US, police officers can shoot if theres reasonable perception of a grave and imminent threat, which is a far more subjective standard.
what make the situation in California different from say this one http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...sarm-man-trying-to-commit-suicide-by-cop.html The guy was suicidal and armed yet the police officers in that situation were able to disarm and take him in without killing him.
Nah though obviously the solution is to make body cam videos private.
Again, what's your point other than a drive-by shitpost implying that the situation was different than it actually was?
They didn't shoot an unarmed man who was harmlessly standing around. They shot a man who gave every sign that he was armed and acted like he was. It was a difficult situation and besides "the cops shouldn't have been there," no one can say for sure how it should have gone down.
what make the situation in California different from say this one http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...sarm-man-trying-to-commit-suicide-by-cop.html The guy was suicidal and armed yet the police officers in that situation were able to disarm and take him in without killing him.
That precedent does not matter here at all because there is no indication this had anything to do with race or police shooting unprovoked. The intent is trying to make it one anyways to get emotional responses and move the discussion in a certain direction from the start. Many aren't even fully reading the OP/report and still asking about the gun/taser combo.
As for the PERT: that is a reasonable criticism. When enough leads imply the person might be mentally ill then the dispatchers should consider (or if they are obligated to, do it) sending someone qualified specifically for those situations. But that's a problem higher up and not the fault of the two police officers in the situation they found themselves in. They cant just stand around and say "Hey wait 20min for the PERT to arrive and dont move despite you acting like you have a gun in your pocket".
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And if they see that it's a gun, should they wait a couple more fractions of a second to verify it's not a toy gun? I dunno, man. They risk their lives plenty even without letting people shoot them.
Suicide by cop happens. It's tragic, they can't all be prevented. The only way to significantly decrease these shootings is to get rid of guns. Countries like UK, Iceland and Norway haven't "fixed" this issue, their cops don't even carry guns. It's that the problem of a populace armed to the teeth has never existed in those countries.
He also was mentally ill and protocol calls for having a trained mental ill professional on hand.
And what do you know that didn’t happen...
What?
They engaged.
They shouldn't have engaged.
The cops it appwars aware of the 5150 status of the call but they engaged him with the standard gusto.
Toy gun you pull the trigger, finger and cocked thumb maybe not. The point is you fucking practice daily your ability to identify a weapon and react quickly. It should be second nature. Of course there will be mistakes but people are reasonable, you point a toy gun at a cop and get shot no rational person is going to argue that. Pulling up your pants with no gun is different.
I don't think this is accurate. Maybe I'm wrong.
Section 5150 is a section of the California Welfare and Institutions Code (WIC) (in particular, the LantermanPetrisShort Act or "LPS") which authorizes a qualified officer or clinician to involuntarily confine a person suspected to have a mental disorder that makes them a danger to themself, a danger to others, and/or gravely disabled. A qualified officer, which includes any California peace officer, as well as any specifically-designated county clinician, can request the confinement after signing a written declaration stating the psychiatric diagnosis that the diagnosing medical professional believes to be the cause or reason why they believe the patient to be "a danger to themselves or others" or the psychiatric disorder that has rendered the patient incapable of making their own medical treatment decisions.
Think you need an actual mental health professional to finish the process but the initial call? That's all police if I'm understanding it correctly and really it makes sense if the person is a danger to themselves or others.
The mental-health emergency response team in place for these situations was not on the scene to assist.
According to Kim Moore, who is on the ground in El Cajon, police confirmed that the Psychiatric Emergency Response Team was not brought in to assist on the call. A description of PERTs responsibilities are as follows:
Provides emergency assessment and referral for individuals with mental illness who come to the attention of law enforcement through phone calls from community members or in-field law enforcement request for emergency assistance. PERT pairs licensed mental health clinicians with uniformed law enforcement officers/deputies. Clinicians work out of individual law enforcement divisions and respond in the field with their law enforcement partners.
Oh pish posh. You know the one who shot him will be rewarded and the guy with the taser will be fired for endangering a fellow officer's life.
Just take the risk and wait a fraction of a second for their brain to process if the man did in fact have a gun. Not capable or willing to take that risk don't be a cop. Cops should be really doing some type of traiing on a regular basis to insure they have the best possible reaction speed. As simple as an app on their phone that flashes a pic you look at it and identify the threat and react. With body cam video, you could easily update the exact video to every cop in America so they can learn and see real threats vs non threatening behavoirs.
Okay yeah the toy gun thing was a bit ridiculous on my part. Apparently he had a vape device, so possibly something like this:
I guess in theory a cop could prepare for this sort of thing and minimize the chances of shooting someone who actually doesn't have a gun. But I don't think it's a realistic expectation.
Are there protocols for police to deal with people with obvious mental issues?
From the updated link
Uh, if you just read the story there's plenty of differences. The guy was calm and cooperative, so they didn't draw on him. He only pulled out the gun when they were patting him down, which lead to a struggle.
Lol we're at the point where we have such low expectations of our peace officers that a guy with a vape can be seen as "well yeah given how inept they are that probably did look like a gun" like god damn.
This is where we're at right now. Shooting young black men over absolutely nothing. At least when I was growing up they'd pretend they were all drug dealers.
Gonna have to talk to my son about this later.