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[Zoe]

It says they fired simultaneously

And that can happen when the officer holding the gun has a different vantage point from the officer holding the taser.

 

[n00bsauce87]

Here is the question that people need to ask.

If he "forced" the hand of the cops to fatally shoot him, why did one of those cops decide that a taser was good enough? I would like to know what what going through his mind because there would have been no point to tase him if the plan all along was to kill him if he proved an imminent threat. There some miscommunication and lack of teamwork at best here.

 

[FryShakeWad]

Discussion helps gain understanding of events... and it is okay to talk for the sake of it. I don't think everyone necessarily needs to be a legislator or activist to put in their two cents.

You're correct.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

If we had a better medical system to help that man, then it's less likely that the police would ever have to respond to this kind of scenario at all.

 

[Newt]

Sounds like this had nothing to do with race. Was probably suicide by cop.

 

[Henkka]

I read this in the op presumably from the Reuters link beneath it



Fire two tazers at the same time and maybe you've successfully used non lethal means. Fire a tazer/gun combo at the same time and you look inept. You have to give one a chance to work otherwise they both may as well have had guns in hand and shelved the taser.

I mean, you've got to keep in mind this is happening in a space of few seconds. From what I understand, the timeline is something like

-Officers approach, tell the man to remove his hands from his pockets
-He doesn't
-Officers draw a gun and a taser, tell him again
-He doesn't
-Suddenly he pulls out something from his pocket, points it at one officer
-Both officers go "Oh FUCK I don't want to die" , fire gun and taser

I guess I can understand the critique that they shouldn't have approached at all without a mental health professional... But after they made the decision to approach, I dunno what they should've done differently. Maybe you could say, they shouldn't have pulled out a gun at all. The guy just has his hands in his pockets, why would you assume he might have a gun? And that may be true in the UK, but this is the US. Cops generally assume anyone could have a gun, because they're so prevalent. It's tragic and horrible, but it's the state of things.

 

[Night.Ninja]

Just another situation where the police could have handled it better.

 

[Dutch Microwave]

Is there a police force in the world whose armed units don't shoot for center mass?

Spain for example,but in general police in EU tries to deescalate first,use advanced techniques like warning shots and talking.

There was a post in another thread that kinda goes over the differences.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=217710293&postcount=28

Under the European Convention of Human Rights, police can only shoot if it’s “absolutely necessary” in order to achieve a legitimate law enforcement purpose. Meanwhile, in the US, police officers can shoot if there’s “reasonable” perception of a grave and imminent threat, which is a far more subjective standard.

 

[Gravy Boat]

If we had a better medical system to help that man, then it's less likely that the police would ever have to respond to this kind of scenario at all.

And if the police had more than 5 months training they wouldn't be so quick to shit themselves and shoot any time anything happens. Fucking hell America, other countries fixed these issues years ago.

I'm so disgusted by the regularity of events like this but I'm not American so I'm useless when it comes to trying to fix it. What actually needs to be done to change shit and are all the people posting in this thread actually actively trying to make a change?

 

[darscot]

I mean, you've got to keep in mind this is happening in a space of few seconds. From what I understand, the timeline is something like

-Officers approach, tell the man to remove his hands from his pockets
-He doesn't
-Officers draw a gun and a taser, tell him again
-He doesn't
-Suddenly he pulls out something from his pocket, points it at one officer
-Both officers go "Oh FUCK I don't want to die" , fire gun and taser

I guess I can understand the critique that they shouldn't have approached at all without a mental health professional... But after they made the decision to approach, I dunno what they should've done differently. Maybe you could say, they shouldn't have pulled out a gun at all. The guy just has his hands in his pockets, why would you assume he might have a gun? And that may be true in the UK, but this is the US. Cops generally assume anyone could have a gun, because they're so prevalent. It's tragic and horrible, but it's the state of things.

Just take the risk and wait a fraction of a second for their brain to process if the man did in fact have a gun. Not capable or willing to take that risk don't be a cop. Cops should be really doing some type of traiing on a regular basis to insure they have the best possible reaction speed. As simple as an app on their phone that flashes a pic you look at it and identify the threat and react. With body cam video, you could easily update the exact video to every cop in America so they can learn and see real threats vs non threatening behavoirs.

 

[FryShakeWad]

This is extremely insulting to those of us with family members who suffer from mental illness. Please re-think this.

LMAO no. I work with children that range from EBD to DCD. If you have mental health issues and you haven't adressed them by the time you're older than 30 it's clearly your caretakers fault. Where was his aide? Was he on meds? Why if he was SOOO disabled or had mental health issues were there not people assissting him? His sister left him behind a dumpster? No sympathy from me.

 

[Gravy Boat]

LMAO no. I work with children that range from EBD to DCD. If you have mental health issues and you haven't adressed them by the time you're older than 30 it's clearly your caretakers fault. Where was his aide? Was he on meds? Why if he was SOOO disabled or had mental health issues were there not people assissting him? His sister left him behind a dumpster? No sympathy from me.

Jesus you're a horrible person.

 

[DrBo42]

If the man was suicidal and a 5150 was called in with that information, yeah they could have thought it would be a possibility he'd try suicide by cop. If he pulled something out and aimed it at me though, you can't take the chance. Not sure how much we can really criticize the officers involved here. Thread title is garbage.

 

[spuckthew]

This is so ironic to me. I was going to post (but never did) in the other thread about how officers should always travel in pairs (unless they do already) and for it to be compulsory for one of the officers to have a taser gun readied instead of a lethal firearm.

I guess this most recent event totally debunks that idea :|

 

[Beefy]

LMAO no. I work with children that range from EBD to DCD. If you have mental health issues and you haven't adressed them by the time you're older than 30 it's clearly your caretakers fault. Where was his aide? Was he on meds? Why if he was SOOO disabled or had mental health issues were there not people assissting him? His sister left him behind a dumpster? No sympathy from me.

Your posts get worse and worse.

 

[n00bsauce87]

A taser has to be precise to actually work. What happens if a gun is drawn in the time it takes the cop with the taser to line up their shot? What happens if a gun is drawn the moment the taser is disengaged?

The scenario you are describing is that officer A has a taser drawn but all the other officers don't have their service weapons drawn and pointed as well.

If they do, then I would wonder if this is normal protocol for a "5150". Especially in the spirit of deescalation, wouldn't the sight of firearms and officers enclosing on the person agitate them more, especially when they aren't fully aware mentally of their situation?

 

[GeordieMark]

Spain for example,but in general police in EU tries to deescalate first,use advanced techniques like warning shots and talking.

There was a post in another thread that kinda goes over the differences.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=217710293&postcount=28

Under the European Convention of Human Rights, police can only shoot if it’s “absolutely necessary” in order to achieve a legitimate law enforcement purpose. Meanwhile, in the US, police officers can shoot if there’s “reasonable” perception of a grave and imminent threat, which is a far more subjective standard.

It's not really fair to compare European policing and US policing as the latter have a much riskier job due to the prevalence of guns in US society. It's a very different situation.

 

[thelastcrusader]

So taser guy should get no penalty since he had the right idea. The prick who killed a mentally disabled person deserves 1st degree.

 

[Xilo]

LMAO no. I work with children that range from EBD to DCD. If you have mental health issues and you haven't adressed them by the time you're older than 30 it's clearly your caretakers fault. Where was his aide? Was he on meds? Why if he was SOOO disabled or had mental health issues were there not people assissting him? His sister left him behind a dumpster? No sympathy from me.

I didn't want to go into detail, but here we go. My mother has suffered with Schizophrenia her entire adult life. She has a regular doctor that she sees and is able to manage with medication. She doesn't need a caretaker or anyone assisting her because medicine keeps it under control. That said, it would be easy for her to get sidetracked and forget her medicine for a day and she would be in a pretty bad way mentally pretty quickly. I'd like to think police wouldn't just decide she's dangerous and kill her.

 

[Henkka]

Just take the risk and wait a fraction of a second for their brain to process if the man did in fact have a gun. Not capable or willing to take that risk don't be a cop. Cops should be really doing some type of traiing on a regular basis to insure they have the best possible reaction speed. As simple as an app on their phone that flashes a pic you look at it and identify the threat and react. With body cam video, you could easily update the exact video to every cop in America so they can learn and see real threats vs non threatening behavoirs.

And if they see that it's a gun, should they wait a couple more fractions of a second to verify it's not a toy gun? I dunno, man. They risk their lives plenty even without letting people shoot them.

Suicide by cop happens. It's tragic, they can't all be prevented. The only way to significantly decrease these shootings is to get rid of guns. Countries like UK, Iceland and Norway haven't "fixed" this issue, their cops don't even carry guns. It's that the problem of a populace armed to the teeth has never existed in those countries.

 

[DrBo42]

So taser guy should get no penalty since he had the right idea. The prick who killed a mentally disabled person deserves 1st degree.

This is absolutely insane.

 

[thelastcrusader]

This is absolutely insane.

Oh pish posh. You know the one who shot him will be rewarded and the guy with the taser will be fired for endangering a fellow officer's life.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Just take the risk and wait a fraction of a second for their brain to process if the man did in fact have a gun. Not capable or willing to take that risk don't be a cop. Cops should be really doing some type of traiing on a regular basis to insure they have the best possible reaction speed. As simple as an app on their phone that flashes a pic you look at it and identify the threat and react. With body cam video, you could easily update the exact video to every cop in America so they can learn and see real threats vs non threatening behavoirs.

Pointing something resembling a gun at someone is threatening behavior. Should they wait for the muzzle flash then fire their bullets to intercept the bullets?

You cannot reasonably expect your average cop to have better reaction times than pro athletes.

 

[The Kree]

This is absolutely insane.

Relax, you know he's gonna walk.

 

[dan2026]

Again from the last thread of cops shooting unarmed people.
(feels like it was mere days ago)

Solve the US gun problem.
Then maybe cops would have to approach every situation as life or death.

The root of all this is the gun. With a sprinkling of prejudice granted.

 

[Dutch Microwave]

It's not really fair to compare European policing and US policing as the latter have a much riskier job due to the prevalence of guns in US society. It's a very different situation.

The prevalence of guns stop the US from training cops for more than 5 months?

 

[DrBo42]

Oh pish posh. You know the one who shot him will be rewarded and the guy with the taser will be fired for endangering a fellow officer's life.

Cops infuriate me, every time there's a shooting I always hear from one person "they should have listened to the cop's orders." First thing I think is fuck them, I'm not taking orders from some jackass who likely didn't even go to college and did some police academy training who likely gets paid jackshit but feels like a badass cause they have a gun. And just because I don't follow their orders to the letter does not give them authority to kill people.
Whether you're black, white, yellow, or purple they have no right to harm or kill you unless you actively threaten their life but at that point that's true for any living creature on the planet imo.

Since he actively threatened the officer's life by aiming an object at him I guess we're good here?

Look, I get everyone has trust issues with police right now and they're absolutely valid. But this really isn't one of the situations we can call them out on being a murderer. That's all I'm saying. Don't let blind rage mute your common sense. Keep the rage for when it's actually warranted. Go protest. Elect officials that will make a change.

 

[Jmanunknown]

what make the situation in California different from say this one http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...sarm-man-trying-to-commit-suicide-by-cop.html The guy was suicidal and armed yet the police officers in that situation were able to disarm and take him in without killing him.

 

[Frozenprince]

Nah though obviously the solution is to make body cam videos private.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Spain for example,but in general police in EU tries to deescalate first,use advanced techniques like warning shots and talking.

There was a post in another thread that kinda goes over the differences.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=217710293&postcount=28

Under the European Convention of Human Rights, police can only shoot if it’s “absolutely necessary” in order to achieve a legitimate law enforcement purpose. Meanwhile, in the US, police officers can shoot if there’s “reasonable” perception of a grave and imminent threat, which is a far more subjective standard.

Sure, but doing things to deescalate the situation or avoid shooting people is one thing, "The fact that US cops shoot to kill every time instead of aiming at non-vital body parts says it all really" is another. Once that decision is made, it's reasonable to shoot at their chest. The problem here isn't that operational procedure, it's the readyness with which they move to that stage that's the problem.

 

[DrBo42]

what make the situation in California different from say this one http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...sarm-man-trying-to-commit-suicide-by-cop.html The guy was suicidal and armed yet the police officers in that situation were able to disarm and take him in without killing him.

Sounds like they were within arm's reach since they were about to pat him down. That's the difference.

No such opportunity here.

 

[Chris R]

I wish police would load at least a round or two of less than lethal ammo into their carry weapon to prevent situations like this

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

Nah though obviously the solution is to make body cam videos private.

gotta keep white supremacy stronk.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Again, what's your point other than a drive-by shitpost implying that the situation was different than it actually was?

They didn't shoot an unarmed man who was harmlessly standing around. They shot a man who gave every sign that he was armed and acted like he was. It was a difficult situation and besides "the cops shouldn't have been there," no one can say for sure how it should have gone down.

He also was mentally ill and protocol calls for having a trained mental ill professional on hand.

And what do you know that didn’t happen...

 

[Henkka]

what make the situation in California different from say this one http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...sarm-man-trying-to-commit-suicide-by-cop.html The guy was suicidal and armed yet the police officers in that situation were able to disarm and take him in without killing him.

Uh, if you just read the story there's plenty of differences. The guy was calm and cooperative, so they didn't draw on him. He only pulled out the gun when they were patting him down, which lead to a struggle.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

El Cajon? Fuck, I'm from there (granted I only lived there until I was 5). Crazy.

 

[excelsiorlef]

That precedent does not matter here at all because there is no indication this had anything to do with race or police shooting unprovoked. The intent is trying to make it one anyways to get emotional responses and move the discussion in a certain direction from the start. Many aren't even fully reading the OP/report and still asking about the gun/taser combo.

As for the PERT: that is a reasonable criticism. When enough leads imply the person might be mentally ill then the dispatchers should consider (or if they are obligated to, do it) sending someone qualified specifically for those situations. But that's a problem higher up and not the fault of the two police officers in the situation they found themselves in. They cant just stand around and say "Hey wait 20min for the PERT to arrive and dont move despite you acting like you have a gun in your pocket".

Sent from mobile

What?

They engaged.

They shouldn't have engaged.

The cops it appwars aware of the 5150 status of the call but they engaged him with the standard gusto.

 

[darscot]

And if they see that it's a gun, should they wait a couple more fractions of a second to verify it's not a toy gun? I dunno, man. They risk their lives plenty even without letting people shoot them.

Suicide by cop happens. It's tragic, they can't all be prevented. The only way to significantly decrease these shootings is to get rid of guns. Countries like UK, Iceland and Norway haven't "fixed" this issue, their cops don't even carry guns. It's that the problem of a populace armed to the teeth has never existed in those countries.

Toy gun you pull the trigger, finger and cocked thumb maybe not. The point is you fucking practice daily your ability to identify a weapon and react quickly. It should be second nature. Of course there will be mistakes but people are reasonable, you point a toy gun at a cop and get shot no rational person is going to argue that. Pulling up your pants with no gun is different.

 

[Vicetrailia]

The professionalism of police really does leave a lot to be desired. But I realize that our gun culture makes these situations happen very frequently because anyone can have a gun. It's easy to get it legally and illegally.

 

[DrBo42]

He also was mentally ill and protocol calls for having a trained mental ill professional on hand.

And what do you know that didn’t happen...

What?

They engaged.

They shouldn't have engaged.

The cops it appwars aware of the 5150 status of the call but they engaged him with the standard gusto.

I don't think this is accurate. Maybe I'm wrong.

Section 5150 is a section of the California Welfare and Institutions Code (WIC) (in particular, the Lanterman–Petris–Short Act or "LPS") which authorizes a qualified officer or clinician to involuntarily confine a person suspected to have a mental disorder that makes them a danger to themself, a danger to others, and/or gravely disabled. A qualified officer, which includes any California peace officer, as well as any specifically-designated county clinician, can request the confinement after signing a written declaration stating the psychiatric diagnosis that the diagnosing medical professional believes to be the cause or reason why they believe the patient to be "a danger to themselves or others" or the psychiatric disorder that has rendered the patient incapable of making their own medical treatment decisions.

Think you need an actual mental health professional to finish the process but the initial call? That's all police if I'm understanding it correctly and really it makes sense if the person is a danger to themselves or others.

 

[Henkka]

Toy gun you pull the trigger, finger and cocked thumb maybe not. The point is you fucking practice daily your ability to identify a weapon and react quickly. It should be second nature. Of course there will be mistakes but people are reasonable, you point a toy gun at a cop and get shot no rational person is going to argue that. Pulling up your pants with no gun is different.

Okay yeah the toy gun thing was a bit ridiculous on my part. Apparently he had a vape device, so possibly something like this:

I guess in theory a cop could prepare for this sort of thing and minimize the chances of shooting someone who actually doesn't have a gun. But I don't think it's a realistic expectation.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't think this is accurate. Maybe I'm wrong.

Section 5150 is a section of the California Welfare and Institutions Code (WIC) (in particular, the Lanterman–Petris–Short Act or "LPS") which authorizes a qualified officer or clinician to involuntarily confine a person suspected to have a mental disorder that makes them a danger to themself, a danger to others, and/or gravely disabled. A qualified officer, which includes any California peace officer, as well as any specifically-designated county clinician, can request the confinement after signing a written declaration stating the psychiatric diagnosis that the diagnosing medical professional believes to be the cause or reason why they believe the patient to be "a danger to themselves or others" or the psychiatric disorder that has rendered the patient incapable of making their own medical treatment decisions.

Think you need an actual mental health professional to finish the process but the initial call? That's all police if I'm understanding it correctly and really it makes sense if the person is a danger to themselves or others.

From the updated link

The mental-health emergency response team in place for these situations was not on the scene to assist.

According to Kim Moore, who is on the ground in El Cajon, police confirmed that the Psychiatric Emergency Response Team was not brought in to assist on the call. A description of PERT’s responsibilities are as follows:

Provides emergency assessment and referral for individuals with mental illness who come to the attention of law enforcement through phone calls from community members or in-field law enforcement request for emergency assistance. PERT pairs licensed mental health clinicians with uniformed law enforcement officers/deputies. Clinicians work out of individual law enforcement divisions and respond in the field with their law enforcement partners.

 

[Mega]

Oh pish posh. You know the one who shot him will be rewarded and the guy with the taser will be fired for endangering a fellow officer's life.

You wanna bet on that or are you just full of it? Because none of that will happen. Use common sense.

Just take the risk and wait a fraction of a second for their brain to process if the man did in fact have a gun. Not capable or willing to take that risk don't be a cop. Cops should be really doing some type of traiing on a regular basis to insure they have the best possible reaction speed. As simple as an app on their phone that flashes a pic you look at it and identify the threat and react. With body cam video, you could easily update the exact video to every cop in America so they can learn and see real threats vs non threatening behavoirs.

This reads like something someone would say after spending too much time fiddling on their phone and playing video games. I don't even know what to say to the bolded. Are you joking?

Waiting a second for someone to finish their "shooting a gun" maneuver means death.

 

[darscot]

Okay yeah the toy gun thing was a bit ridiculous on my part. Apparently he had a vape device, so possibly something like this:



I guess in theory a cop could prepare for this sort of thing and minimize the chances of shooting someone who actually doesn't have a gun. But I don't think it's a realistic expectation.

If he did in fact point a vape that looked like that then to me this is a justified shooting. My point is there are shades of grey to this. Not every shooting is wrong and not everyone one is justified, it seems things have swayed a little too far to shoot first ask questions or sprinkle the crack later. At the same time just because the masses cry foul and riot that does not make them right either.

My post applies to the person above, I didn't say it was the best and only solution and would solve all Americas policing problems. The reality is you can train your reaction and recognition time. If I was a cop I would make damn sure i had the confidence that comes with the knowledge that I had a much better than average reaction time and ability to shoot compared to joe average dude on the street.

 

[Sulik2]

Are there protocols for police to deal with people with obvious mental issues?

Yeah kill em appears to be the MO.

 

[DrBo42]

From the updated link

Well there you go. That's negligence. Probably some departmental bullshit about them not liking the hassle of bringing them in. Sad.

 

[Jmanunknown]

Uh, if you just read the story there's plenty of differences. The guy was calm and cooperative, so they didn't draw on him. He only pulled out the gun when they were patting him down, which lead to a struggle.

The guy who was calm is alive right and he was armed and tried to pull his gun on officers yet the guy with no gun who was acting eratically because of his mental issues is dead. Why are you trying to hand wave an unarmed person being killed by a police officer? We should expect better out of them especially in these situations. Just saying bs like it was suicide by cop is an excuse and they can get to keep doing the same behaviors over and over. That is part of why the US is in the situation it is today when it pertains to police officers and use of force.

 

[Frozenprince]

Lol we're at the point where we have such low expectations of our peace officers that a guy with a vape can be seen as "well yeah given how inept they are that probably did look like a gun" like god damn.

This is where we're at right now. Shooting young black men over absolutely nothing. At least when I was growing up they'd pretend they were all drug dealers.

Gonna have to talk to my son about this later.

 

[Big Baybee]

Responses in this thread are why cops can pretty much do whatever the fuck they want with no accountability whatsoever. Expect better of your public servants.

 

[Gravy Boat]

Lol we're at the point where we have such low expectations of our peace officers that a guy with a vape can be seen as "well yeah given how inept they are that probably did look like a gun" like god damn.

This is where we're at right now. Shooting young black men over absolutely nothing. At least when I was growing up they'd pretend they were all drug dealers.

Gonna have to talk to my son about this later.

It's nuts, isn't it? Anywhere else in the world, if this exact situation happened there would be national outrage. But when it happens in the US people are fine with it.

Expect more from the people who are supposed to be protecting you. God damn.