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[mjp2417]

I stopped short of predicting a Trump victory because I thought the odds were somewhat low, but I've been extremely wary of Hillary's toxic image, political apathy, liberal smugness, democratic complacency, America's deeply hidden racism and the party's utter failure to do anything else but preaching to the choir while the GOP was closing its ranks around American's prophet of neofascism. All of that rests on Clinton's campain. Racists didn't win the election; she handed them the victory.

Time and time again I've been told here and in other places that America wouldn't allow Trump a victory and that I was diablos'ing hard. I'm sure those people didn't mean ill, but look where we are now.

I'm also particularly enraged by how cheery were Hillary supporters during the whole deplorable incident. That was a complete PR cock-up. It galvanized Trump's camp, bothered undecideds and made Hillary look like a vehemently divisive candidate.

I don't know. If your first thought when a politician actually said something demonstrably true was that she should have lied because we need to coddle the worst among us because of political correctness - and coddling racist white people is what that phrase actually means in practice- then that is a pretty nihilistic indictment of our democracy. I would assume you felt the same way about Obama's "bitter clingers" remarks? Was he being vehemently divisive?

 

[Rentahamster]

Michael Moore on Morning Joe right now dropping some truth bombs.

He just said that 90% of Michigan (or maybe it was just Detroit?) residents voted on all the items on the ballot.

Except for the presidency.

edit: or maybe it was 90,000 people? Shit, that's what I get for gaffing and watching tv at the same time. Point is, it was a lot.

 

[Chindogg]

He just said that 90% of Michigan residents voted on all the items on the ballot.

Except for the presidency.

Yup. I'll admit I was tempted to do the same thing but I swallowed my pride and voted Hillary for the sake of my marginalized friends. Then I went home and drank half a bottle of Jamison because I thought I was sending the next generation to war with Russia in Syria.

 

[Henchmen21]

If you are looking for blame, blame democratic voters. They chose Hillary. They've wanted Hillary for years. They gave her a massive, overwhelming lead in the delegate count. no finger on the scale was going to change that.

She wasn't "chosen" to run- she ran, and won, because the democratic voting base preferred her over the others.

Oh ffs...NO they didn't. We have brought ample amount of evidence that she was plotting this since her first run. Just because you want to turn a blind eye to it doesn't invalidate it.

 

[TyrantII]

This is called saving your skin, it happens every election for those who want to be gainfully employed again.

He's not wrong, but he's not completely right either. And that's sort if the point of what he's doing

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

Quoting something I wrote in another thread because people are still ignorantly assuming that the only way to win back the rural white working class is to cast off minorities. It's a ridiculous notion that continually ignores the fact that President Obama won many of these communities himself. You cannot simply ignore the economic plight of millions of Americans and claim to be a progressive in the same breath.

The Democratic party can simultaneously decry the scourge of civil rights abuses and inequality while acknowledging that rural areas, white or otherwise, have basically been left to rot by both parties after having borne the fruits of the industrial economy for most of their lives.

Globalization needed to happen for our economy to advance into what it is, but globalization has victims. Low-skill workers with minimal education have seen their communities shrivel up to nothing. They elected a man who promised to burn the establishment to the ground after asking "What about us?" for decades and never getting a serious answer.

 

[Violet_0]

There's also the die hard Bernie Sanders supporters that, after he dropped out, decided to instead support people that held diametrically oppressed policy positions to their chosen candidate. They knew they weren't going to suffer as bad as minorities under Trump. They're going to do alright regardless of who was elected.

hence, nominating Hillary as the candidate that represents the establishment in the minds of most voters was a terrible move. This election called for radical, opinionated personalities that speak to the hearts of the masses. Fight fire with fire. People like Obama, Trump or even Sanders are the type of candidates people willingly rally behind now, the Romenys and Hillaries are a relict of the past

 

[CrispyBoar]

If you are looking for blame, blame democratic voters. They chose Hillary. They've wanted Hillary for years. They gave her a massive, overwhelming lead in the delegate count. no finger on the scale was going to change that.

She wasn't "chosen" to run- she ran, and won, because the democratic voting base preferred her over the others.

Hell, I voted for her. Not only because I'm a democratic, but because I didn't want Donald Trump running & wanted the best for this country.

But Hillary, her team, & the DNC? They blew it, they fucking blew it. They didn't even convince a lot of millennials, etc. to vote for her & didn't do a great job at it. And now people like me have to suffer for it as a result.

 

[Maledict]

Oh ffs...NO they didn't. We have brought ample amount of evidence that she was plotting this since her first run. Just because you want to turn a blind eye to it doesn't invalidate it.

Um, please don't take this the wrong way - but of course she was "plotting" this. That's what you do! It was hardly a big secret - when Obama chose Hillary as SoS people were talking about how it would give her more exposure for a run in 2016.

Seriously, its unbelievably patronising to suggest that she got more than 4 million votes over sanders because people are stupid. The people who vote in democratic primaries wanted Hillary Clinton. Many, many felt that it was her time.

Now, obviously in hindsight they (and people like me who supported her) were wrong. There's no denying that. But you can't just blame the DNC and pretend the base didn't want her - the primary voting base did.

 

[googleplex]

Oh ffs...NO they didn't. We have brought ample amount of evidence that she was plotting this since her first run. Just because you want to turn a blind eye to it doesn't invalidate it.

Plotting? What the fuck are you talking about? She won the primary fair and square. More people voted for her. Fucking period!

Quit talking about this rigged bullshit.

 

[cheezcake]

19% for Clinton, 51% for Obama in 2008.

Do we have a source for 19%? It was 48.5% voter turnout for age group 18-24, and 56% for 25-34 which are the only breakdown official data has. 66% of 18-29 voters voted Obama.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Because democrats wanted her to be their nominee.

That's nothing to do with the DNC. The sheer fact is, a large majority of democratic primary voters wanted Hillary Clinton. That was always going to be the case - particularly amongst people who supported Obama in 2008, but wanted her. She (was) popular amongst democrats, particularly the core voting blocks of the democratic party - black women, for example.

People didn't run not because they thought the DNC was going to stop them, but because they knew she had sky high favourability ratings and a huge amount of support from people who wanted to vote for her.

No one is denying that she got in because she got more votes. I think what bothers people is knowing that she had a real advantage in having the DNC backing her to such a degree. When you read that quote from Brazile, particularly the last sentence, it paints a picture of the DNC basically positioning this election so that it was much harder for an Obama to rise up and take the nomination away from Hillary.

Trump also had to fight against the RNC. The difference is that he had a celebrity status already, so his name was well known. Someone like Bernie didn't have that. He had to try to establish his name in a short period of time while climbing an uphill battle against candidate that was very well known and the DNC. It made a tough battle near impossible.

 

[7DollarHagane]

Well I guess it would be hard to blame yourselves because of the implications of that, but if they don't take a closer look at their own process they won't do any better next time.

These protests could go either way, energize the left into a better voting block, or energize the right to vote against what they see as "crybabies" that want their way or they'll shout and scream.

 

[DeviantBoi]

Well, that's great and all, but if you put forth the biggest symbol of the establishment during a period where a lot of people are looking for the opposite (on both sides), then you're climbing uphill for no real reason. She didn't do a whole lot to shake off that image painted of her, that's for damn sure.

And why were people so anti-establishment?

Was it because the Republicans broke Washington by refusing to even work with Obama on anything and thus preventing him from doing things that would have helped those people?

Coal miners feeling left behind? Well, they could have been helping rebuild the country's infrastructure. But Republicans wouldn't let Obama do that, so they remained left behind.

 

[Maledict]

Trump also had to fight against the RNC. The difference is that he had a celebrity status already, so his name was well known. Someone like Bernie didn't have that. He had to try to establish his name in a short period of time while climbing an uphill battle against candidate that was very well known and the DNC. It made a tough battle near impossible.

And to be fair, that was part of his weakness as a candidate. He hadn't done any of the work needed to win the primaries - no black outreach, nothing in the south, etc. He didn't intend on winning, he went in to send a message and caught fire because of the times and his opponent.

There's things you do to win a primary process, and Bernie didn't do them. Had he started in 2014 doing the work needed to win, we could be having a completely different conversation right now.

 

[Spinluck]

Bernie, really? Lol

 

[Interfectum]

No one is denying that she got in because she got more votes. I think what bothers people is knowing that she had a real advantage in having the DNC backing her to such a degree. When you read that quote from Brazile, particularly the last sentence, it paints a picture of the DNC basically positioning this election so that it was much harder for an Obama to rise up and take the nomination away from Hillary.

Trump also had to fight against the RNC. The difference is that he had a celebrity status already, so his name was well known. Someone like Bernie didn't have that. He had to try to establish his name in a short period of time while climbing an uphill battle against candidate that was very well known and the DNC. It made a tough battle near impossible.

It's amazing Bernie made it as far as he did. Makes you wonder what would have happened had the DNC actually backed him.

 

[Seventy70]

If you are looking for blame, blame democratic voters. They chose Hillary. They've wanted Hillary for years. They gave her a massive, overwhelming lead in the delegate count. no finger on the scale was going to change that.

She wasn't "chosen" to run- she ran, and won, because the democratic voting base preferred her over the others.

I'm not sure why it can't be both. DNC shouldn't have played favorites. The atmosphere was so toxic and they were pushing the "You're going to let the Republicans win! Fall into line or else you're a traitor!" Due to the personal nature of caucuses, this stuff is a big deal. There may have been many people that wanted to go for Bernie, but felt they were pressured into choosing Hillary. Despite Bernie being successful and creating a large following, they dismissed him saying that he had no chance at all. Well, now we have Trump.

Next time maybe don't play favorites and let the people decide for themselves rather than creating a bias.

 

[Maledict]

On the topic of "establishment" - was the last time an "establishment" candidate won 1988 with GH Bush? It seems there is a real trend in USA politics to always favour the outsider who promises change, and that Americans have a more more deep seated dislike of their central government than the equivalent European states. Every election almost seems to boil down to "kick the bums out".

 

[Maledict]

I'm not sure why it can't be both. DNC shouldn't have played favorites. The atmosphere was so toxic and they were pushing the "You're going to let the Republicans win! Fall into line or else you're a traitor!" Due to the personal nature of caucuses, this stuff is a big deal. There may have been many people that wanted to go for Bernie, but felt they were pressured into choosing Hillary. Despite Bernie being successful and creating a large following, they dismissed him saying that he had no chance at all. Well, now we have Trump.

Um, every piece of evidence we have suggests the opposite actually. Remember, it was Hillary who had a lot of silent voters during the primary process because they were scared of admitting they wanted her due to the abuse online. there were numerous articles done on the fact that Hillary's vote just didn't have a presence online - but it did turn up to vote.

 

[CrispyBoar]

I'm not sure why it can't be both. DNC shouldn't have played favorites. The atmosphere was so toxic and they were pushing the "You're going to let the Republicans win! Fall into line or else you're a traitor!" Due to the personal nature of caucuses, this stuff is a big deal. There may have been many people that wanted to go for Bernie, but felt they were pressured into choosing Hillary. Despite Bernie being successful and creating a large following, they dismissed him saying that he had no chance at all. Well, now we have Trump.

They're idiots (The DNC). They're fucking idiots. They don't understand why people like me are upset about this at all.

 

[cheezcake]

No one is denying that she got in because she got more votes. I think what bothers people is knowing that she had a real advantage in having the DNC backing her to such a degree. When you read that quote from Brazile, particularly the last sentence, it paints a picture of the DNC basically positioning this election so that it was much harder for an Obama to rise up and take the nomination away from Hillary.

Trump also had to fight against the RNC. The difference is that he had a celebrity status already, so his name was well known. Someone like Bernie didn't have that. He had to try to establish his name in a short period of time while climbing an uphill battle against candidate that was very well known and the DNC. It made a tough battle near impossible.

I don't think it was Trump's celeb status as much as the sheer number of republican candidates who split the traditional party vote between them. It would've been interesting to see how he did 1 on 1 against Rubio or someone similar.

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

Um, every piece of evidence we have suggests the opposite actually. Remember, it was Hillary who had a lot of silent voters during the primary process because they were scared of admitting they wanted her due to the abuse online. there were numerous articles done on the fact that Hillary's vote just didn't have a presence online - but it did turn up to vote.

It was absolutely not the opposite. That much is evident to anyone who posted here during the primaries.

 

[entremet]

Quoting something I wrote in another thread because people are still ignorantly assuming that the only way to win back the rural white working class is to cast off minorities. It's a ridiculous notion that continually ignores the fact that President Obama won many of these communities himself. You cannot simply ignore the economic plight of millions of Americans and claim to be a progressive in the same breath.

Definitely one of the most frustrating strawmen in this post election analysis.

Emotions are high to be fair, but you eventually need develop a winning strategy.

 

[noshten]

Michael's main point was this:

Flint Woman Whose Question Leaked to Hillary: 'She Should Be Disqualified'

I'm pretty sure this isn't true. The only polling I remember being conducted on this concluded that Sanders supporters thought more vitriol was directed at them than Clinton supporters thought was directed at them. All the other claims of Bernie Bro abuse being widespread picked up a few anecdotal examples and extrapolated accordingly, though the establishment liberal networks like Vox and the like, which were Clinton bubbles.

EDIT: See here: http://onlineharassmentdata.org/2016elections/

Clinton supporters were consistently perceived as much more aggressive than Sanders supporters, by an almost 2-1 margin. This is you being trapped in the bubble again.

A lot of AstroTurfing "correcting the record" is probably the reason

 

[Maledict]

It was absolutely not the opposite. That much is evident to anyone who posted here during the primaries.

Gaf was the ONLY place on the web like this (seriously, we were a bubble). We even spoke about it at the time. Anywhere else you went it was Bernie all the way.

Unless you honestly believe that the actions of poligaf pressured over 4 million people to vote for Hilary over Bernie, you are barking up the wrong tree and ignoring the evidence we have in front of us.

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

Gaf was the ONLY place on the web like this (seriously, we were a bubble). We even spoke about it at the time. Anywhere else you went it was Bernie all the way.

Unless you honestly believe that the actions of poligaf pressured over 4 million people to vote for Hilary over Bernie, you are barking up the wrong tree and ignoring the evidence we have in front of us.

No, it wasn't. If it wasn't naturally aggressive Hillary supporters who still had a chip on their shoulder from 2008, it was paid shills through CorrectTheRecord on major discussion sites like reddit. It was in no way limited to this board.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Gaf was the ONLY place on the web like this (seriously, we were a bubble). We even spoke about it at the time. Anywhere else you went it was Bernie all the way.

Unless you honestly believe that the actions of poligaf pressured over 4 million people to vote for Hilary over Bernie, you are barking up the wrong tree and ignoring the evidence we have in front of us.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true. The only polling I remember being conducted on this concluded that Sanders supporters thought more vitriol was directed at them than Clinton supporters thought was directed at them. All the other claims of Bernie Bro abuse being widespread picked up a few anecdotal examples and extrapolated accordingly, though the establishment liberal networks like Vox and the like, which were Clinton bubbles.

EDIT: See here: http://onlineharassmentdata.org/2016elections/

Clinton supporters were consistently perceived as much more aggressive than Sanders supporters, by an almost 2-1 margin. This is you being trapped in the bubble again.

 

[mjp2417]

Kerry didn't fall as hard a Clinton did. /QUOTE]

He lost both the electoral college vote and the popular vote. Against George W. Bush. Who was a fucking clownshow. It was fucking embarrassing and felt awful. It was the first campaign I put serious time into. But recriminations don't do shit and John Kerry, for all his faults, is still a decent American, as is Hillary Rodham Clinton, as is Bernie Sanders, even though they are all losers.

 

[fastford58]

They really humped the bunk with the Clinton nom. Should have been Bernunit vs. Drumpf.

Hubris killed a lot of the Clinton side and that is continuing it seems. Time to spank that child. Not even the loss of the fucking presidential race is getting them to look at themselves.

Crybabies having a tantrum.

 

[Maledict]

No, it wasn't. If it wasn't naturally aggressive Hillary supporters who still had a chip on their shoulder from 2008, it was paid shills through CorrectTheRecord on major discussion sites like reddit. It was in no way limited to this board.

Oh come the fuck on.

For one thing, we have objective evidence that Bernies social media and online support was far greater than Hillaries. Hell, his campaign and supporters boasted about it! He *was* a better candidate online, that was one of his strengths!

Secondly, stop with the correct the record shit. for one thing, Bernie's damn reddit and online campaigning was done by a paid professional firm who did the same. So far we've identified precisely ZERO correct the record shills, so get off the damn paranoia tree.

Thirdly, "hillary supporters from 2008 who still have a chip on their shoulder" - did you READ any of the threads or posts? Barring Adam the vast majority of posters were Obama folk in 2008. Hell, when we dug up the thread from back then what poligaf posters were saying about Clinton would have got them banned under the current mods.

This idea that Bernie supporters were shamed into voting for Hillary is utter, ridiculous, objectively false nonsense, and utterly unhelpful at all. The democratic base chose the wrong candidate, clearly - but it wasn't because of the DNC, and it wasn't because some loud posters in poligaf hurt your feelings. It was because she'd spent 20 years working the party and getting people behind her, and that's often what wins you the day in politics and in primaries. Especially when the main opposition is someone who didn't do *any* of that beforehand. If Bernie had started camping out in the deep south in 2014 and working with the black community we might have a completely different story here.

 

[Elandyll]

Michael's main point was this:

Flint Woman Whose Question Leaked to Hillary: 'She Should Be Disqualified'

I think his main point was that 90.000 people voted Dem for every point on their ballot in Mi, but couldn't get themselves to put Clinton in, so they didn't vote for a President.

Clinton lost Mi by 22.000 votes.

 

[teruterubozu]

He lost both the electoral college vote and the popular vote. Against George W. Bush. Who was a fucking clownshow. It was fucking embarrassing and felt awful. It was the first campaign I put serious time into. But recriminations don't do shit and John Kerry, for all his faults, is still a decent American, as is Hillary Rodham Clinton, as is Bernie Sanders, even though they are all losers.

eh, he was running against an incumbent. Plus Kerry wasn't the chosen one like Hillary, he was kind of oh well for many Dems.

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

Oh come the fuck on.

For one thing, we have objective evidence that Bernies social media and online support was far greater than Hillaries. Hell, his campaign and supporters boasted about it!

Secondly, stop with the correct the record shit. for one thing, Bernie's damn reddit and online campaigning was done by a paid professional firm who did the same. so far we've identified precisely ZERO correct the record shills, so get off the damn paranoia tree.

thirdly, "hillary supporters from 2008 who still have a chip on their shoulder" - did you READ any of the threads or posts? Barring Adam the vast majority of posters were Obama folk in 2008. Hell, when we dug up the thread from back then what poligaf posters were saying about Clinton would have got them banned under the current mods.

This idea that Bernie supporters were shamed into voting for Hillary is utter, ridiculous, objectively false nonsense, and utterly unhelpful at all. The democratic base chose the wrong candidate, clearly - but it wasn't because of the DNC, and it wasn't because some loud posters in poligaf hurt your feelings.

You keep telling yourself this bullshit while Trump ruins the country. His win could have been avoided and it's people like you who are responsible.

 

[Gattsu25]

I'm pretty sure this isn't true. The only polling I remember being conducted on this concluded that Sanders supporters thought more vitriol was directed at them than Clinton supporters thought was directed at them. All the other claims of Bernie Bro abuse being widespread picked up a few anecdotal examples and extrapolated accordingly, though the establishment liberal networks like Vox and the like, which were Clinton bubbles.

EDIT: See here: http://onlineharassmentdata.org/2016elections/

Clinton supporters were consistently perceived as much more aggressive than Sanders supporters, by an almost 2-1 margin. This is you being trapped in the bubble again.

I'm pretty sure black people who weren't energized by Sanders would disagree with your conclusion there.

 

[Venfayth]

As someone who vehemently rallied behind Bernie and begrudgingly voted for Hillary in the election:

I'm not convinced Bernie would have done better. Given how surprising this was I don't feel confident making any real bets on how things could have gone in a different timeline.

That being said, Hillary's campaign was run awfully and was far too complacent, especially in the last few months. It's kind of cowardly to see them shirking responsibility now.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I'm pretty sure black people who weren't energized by Sanders would disagree with your conclusion there.

I'm glad that anecdotal evidence is working out for you.

 

[Chariot]

I'm pretty sure black people who weren't energized by Sanders would disagree with your conclusion there.

You're not wrong here. Bernie failed to get the hearts of significant amount of african americans. He should've spend more time in the south and emphasizing his racial policies.

I'm glad that anecdotal evidence is working out for you.

African-american vote for Clinton crushed Bernie in quite some places. This is probably jot anecdotal.

 

[entremet]

Kerry didn't fall as hard a Clinton did.

He lost both the electoral college vote and the popular vote. Against George W. Bush. Who was a fucking clownshow. It was fucking embarrassing and felt awful. It was the first campaign I put serious time into. But recriminations don't do shit and John Kerry, for all his faults, is still a decent American, as is Hillary Rodham Clinton, as is Bernie Sanders, even though they are all losers.

I think you're missing the big picture here. HRC run so poorly a campaign that she lost to an inexperienced bigot who got less votes than Romney.

That's really bad.

You're way too focused on the pundit angle. This is a historic collapse. Even the GOP thought Clinton was going to win.

 

[Chindogg]

He lost both the electoral college vote and the popular vote. Against George W. Bush. Who was a fucking clownshow. It was fucking embarrassing and felt awful. It was the first campaign I put serious time into. But recriminations don't do shit and John Kerry, for all his faults, is still a decent American, as is Hillary Rodham Clinton, as is Bernie Sanders, even though they are all losers.

Bush ran on the accusation that Kerry would legalize gay marriage which at the time the majority of Americans were strongly opposed. Even Obama didn't want to touch that subject until Biden opened his mouth on his support. It's kind of amazing to think just how far we came in a decade.

Gaf was the ONLY place on the web like this (seriously, we were a bubble). We even spoke about it at the time. Anywhere else you went it was Bernie all the way.

Unless you honestly believe that the actions of poligaf pressured over 4 million people to vote for Hilary over Bernie, you are barking up the wrong tree and ignoring the evidence we have in front of us.

Weird because my Facebook feeds had nothing but Hillary icons and constant mocking of Bernie supporters.

"Bernie Bros" was used practically every third post.

 

[Funky Papa]

I don't know. If your first thought when a politician actually said something demonstrably true was that she should have lied because we need to coddle the worst among us because of political correctness - and coddling racist white people is what that phrase actually means in practice- then that is a pretty nihilistic indictment of our democracy. I would assume you felt the same way about Obama's "bitter clingers" remarks? Was he being vehemently divisive?

Let me refer you to Crab's fantastic post in this issue.

I think Obama's remark was a misstep, but it didn't matter much in the face of a terrific campaign during a election set on ancient rules instead of delicious memes and insurgent tactics. At the end of the day, it was largely inconsequential. Hillary's was a colossal blunder in comparison.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

African-american vote for Clinton crushed Bernie in quite some places. This is probably jot anecdotal.

I'm not disputing that. I'm pointing out that the facts of the matter show that Clinton supporters were about twice as hostile as Sanders supporters, which probably influenced the outcome, and the fact there are some horrible Sanders supporters who targeted black voters online doesn't change the fact that for every one of those supporters, there were two for Clinton.

 

[Izuna]

This is losertalk. Sorry.

Not from you personally. But always bringing up Trump's gaffes and issues, deplorable, racists, etc., will prevent any critical self examination that will help the next Democratic ticket.

She got beat by an orange buffoon. Let's learn from this.

The fuck? I'm just telling you that it doesn't make logical sense that Hillary loses votes for the same things that Trump does -- stuff, by the way, you brought up yourself.

I can't discuss logic without it being losertalk. k

 

[mordecaii83]

I hope every person responsible for this campaign is fired and they come up with new leadership. I'm seeing levels of incompetency that are hard to believe.

 

[cheezcake]

The fuck? I'm just telling you that it doesn't make logical sense that Hillary loses votes for the same things that Trump does -- stuff, by the way, you brought up yourself.

I can't discuss logic without it being losertalk. k

It is logical though given the difference in their respective voters.

 

[entremet]

The fuck? I'm just telling you that it doesn't make logical sense that Hillary loses votes for the same things that Trump does -- stuff, by the way, you brought up yourself.

I can't discuss logic without it being losertalk. k

The whole discussion is about how Clinton's camp is blaming everyone else but themselves.

We know that Trump is ego maniacal bigot. How about learning how to beat him because it didn't seem that hurt him enough to lose?

1:1 comparisons don't work here since they're so many factors at play, including Clinton's baggage.

 

[Seventy70]

Oh come the fuck on.

For one thing, we have objective evidence that Bernies social media and online support was far greater than Hillaries. Hell, his campaign and supporters boasted about it! He *was* a better candidate online, that was one of his strengths!

Secondly, stop with the correct the record shit. for one thing, Bernie's damn reddit and online campaigning was done by a paid professional firm who did the same. So far we've identified precisely ZERO correct the record shills, so get off the damn paranoia tree.

Thirdly, "hillary supporters from 2008 who still have a chip on their shoulder" - did you READ any of the threads or posts? Barring Adam the vast majority of posters were Obama folk in 2008. Hell, when we dug up the thread from back then what poligaf posters were saying about Clinton would have got them banned under the current mods.

This idea that Bernie supporters were shamed into voting for Hillary is utter, ridiculous, objectively false nonsense, and utterly unhelpful at all. The democratic base chose the wrong candidate, clearly - but it wasn't because of the DNC, and it wasn't because some loud posters in poligaf hurt your feelings. It was because she'd spent 20 years working the party and getting people behind her, and that's often what wins you the day in politics and in primaries. Especially when the main opposition is someone who didn't do *any* of that beforehand. If Bernie had started camping out in the deep south in 2014 and working with the black community we might have a completely different story here.

You don't think the atmosphere was maybe a little too toxic in the DNC? Isn't the Clinton campaign's neglect of the rust belt proof of that? They were set on the result before the primaries even ended. They got complacent and thought they had it in the bag. There is absolutely some blame to be put on the DNC. They thought they were entitled to peoples' votes.

As someone who vehemently rallied behind Bernie and begrudgingly voted for Hillary in the election:

I'm not convinced Bernie would have done better. Given how surprising this was I don't feel confident making any real bets on how things could have gone in a different timeline.

That being said, Hillary's campaign was run awfully and was far too complacent, especially in the last few months. It's kind of cowardly to see them shirking responsibility now.

What Bernie was saying was heavily resonating with the white working class and also very relevant to minorities. He was the only one who did great when polled against Trump. I absolutely think he would have won. That guy was an enthusiasm machine. At the very least he would've gotten more Democrats out there to vote. A lot of what I heard was "He's has great ideas, but he just doesn't have a chance." Had he won the primaries, I think he would've been a whole phenomenon.

 

[Chariot]

I'm not disputing that. I'm pointing out that the facts of the matter show that Clinton supporters were about twice as hostile as Sanders supporters, which probably influenced the outcome, and the fact there are some horrible Sanders supporters who targeted black voters online doesn't change the fact that for every one of those supporters, there were two for Clinton.

Oh, no disagreement on that, looks like I missed the context. I am absolutely with you on this.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Michael's main point was this:

Flint Woman Whose Question Leaked to Hillary: 'She Should Be Disqualified'

With the question known in advance the answer is even more of a joke.

To the question "will you make a personal promise to me right now that in your first 100 days as president you will make it a requirement that all water systems must remove all lead from the lines in the whole US" the answer was

"I want to go further then that, I want us to have an absolute commitment of getting rid of lead wherever it is."

That's in fact not a Yes or No, just a desire to have a commitment to do something about the problem which has now been bundled together with all other lead issues. Instead of answering 'Yes, I will' it became a promotional speech which promised everything but delivered nothing in actual measurable actions.

 

[akileese]

Kerry didn't fall as hard a Clinton did. /QUOTE]

He lost both the electoral college vote and the popular vote. Against George W. Bush. Who was a fucking clownshow. It was fucking embarrassing and felt awful. It was the first campaign I put serious time into. But recriminations don't do shit and John Kerry, for all his faults, is still a decent American, as is Hillary Rodham Clinton, as is Bernie Sanders, even though they are all losers.

He was running vs an incumbent in the middle of the war on terror which, at the time, a lot of people approved of. The only number I found was 72 percent of people polled supported invading Iraq in 2003. That is an absolutely massive number. Also, Bush's approval numbers hovered around the 60s for most of 2003 and mid to high 50s for 2004, the election year.