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[Taruranto]

I don't think "she is an hermaphrodite" is even completely comparable to "she breathes through to her skin". The average gamer is not going to care that she breathes through her skin, but sure as hell he will have a problem with the fact the girl on the screen has penis. There is an huge social stigma about that.

Spoiler

Yes, I know Futa is also considered a fetish, I'm not stupid, but I'm talking about the general audience reaction to it since people want to compare her to Quiet.

THIS is another thing that critics/analysts should take note when writing about gender roles in media--the local context..

You can also see this when people write about "women can't enjoy FFXV because it has no playable female characters".

 

[Crossing Eden]

Dat tactical midriff!


They don't have to, thankfully.

Oh goddamn it Guerilla!

 

[LotusHD]

Yes I do believe that to almost all people interested in the game those are the reasons why. Her design though is not a bonus in my eyes, but a detriment. Her design would go very well in a game that called for it in the game's context. I just want a badass looking gear for a badass powerhouse character. I think that can be very sexy too, without being sexualized.

Of course that can be sexy, and I definitely wouldn't mind such a costume in general, and prefer it in general. But this is what we got, and I dunno, I think it's actually fine.

Sexy costumes aren't inherently bad is all I'm saying, though of course we all obviously have our ideas of what a tasteful yet sexy outfit would be. (As well as those who more or less don't want female characters to wear anything skimpy, due to being understandably tired of it usually being over-the-top for decades now) And understandably, I acknowledge that female attire in gaming understandably warrants more skepticism and criticism in general, due to the outfits we've seen in the past.

But meh, for this particular outfit, it works for me, as opposed to it being something that would be a blatant turn-off for you or others.

 

[krizalidzero]

I'd go as far as saying that having a female lead character is a trend, but it is a trend that we all benefit from.

I'm glad about it.

 

[Christhor]

When the default for games is women being overly sexualised for no good reason, I think it is right to be cynical when the character design looks like the usual ones, but they make up some story justification for it.

If you want to make good female characters but you can't even go as far as moving the character design away from the pandering overtly sexualised standard, making up weak story justifications around it is almost worse.

I don't think there even is any actual justification for it in Nier Automata? How is it ok because she's a robot?

It's not really a weak story justification when her entire character is based around being flawed and unstable. She's also definitely the most well written character in the game, among a couple of other very well written characters, so to write her off completely based on her outfit is silly.

As for Nier Automata? I don't know, maybe the androids were designed by a bunch of men who wanted sexy androids to run around in revealing clothes? lmao, don't ask me, I don't know if they even try justifying it in the game.

 

[Almond]

It's a shame this thread couldn't stay more on track, but I think some people get WAY too hung up on how a character is designed instead of how that character written, treated in the story, treated in the overall game, and just the overall handling of the character, but that's just my opinion.....anyways......

I'm really excited about Nier Automata. Loved the demo, and really love everything I've seen and heard of it so far. It's gonna be good! I'm always up for more playable female characters. Especially if they're as good as Drakengard/NieR ones.

And I really like 2B's design! A nice mix of cool, beautiful, and elegant. Butt and all.

Haven't played the first Gravity Rush yet, but it's on my list for the next month or two. I'll probably like it, Gravity Rush is on my to-get list too. Both look pretty interesting.

And Horizon Zero Dawn just looks boring to me. I don't have any plans to check into it. It's nice to have for more game variety though.

 

[Quillbell]

Why is it dumb? You could use the argument you're using right now about literally anything, so it would be nice if you actually explained why it's a poor justification for the clothes. Unlike Quiet, it actually ties nicely into her entire character. First you don't know Kaine's backstory and now you think that Nier came out after MGSV? Pretty sure you're lying about having played it.

I was talking about the justification for the outfit, not its inspiration. I realize that MGSV came out later (and it'd be a stupid mistake even if I hadn't played Nier, given that they're from completely different console generations).

And even if it is built into the character, my point is that the result is still "expose as much skin as possible". So sure, there's a justification, but it's still a justification for having your character basically wear lingerie.

Also, you can expose skin without wearing lingerie too. What's wrong with a sports bra and biking shorts? Oh wait, it's because one is titillating and the other isn't.

It's not really a weak story justification when her entire character is based around being flawed and unstable. She's also definitely the most well written character in the game, among a couple of other very well written characters, so to write her off completely based on her outfit is silly.

I did actually begin this all by saying that I liked Kaine a lot despite her outfit. I just think that it doesn't do her justice.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm confused. Are sexy characters bad or just sexualization?

The majority of VG characters are attractive but one gender is objectified much more often than the other, with INSANELY stupid ass reasons to not wear sensible clothing if there's a reason at all. Not to mention more often than not they're seemingly not allowed to genuinely be depicted as old or to have things like wrinkles or actual face changing scars.

 

[addik]

I don't think there even is any actual justification for it in Nier Automata? How is it ok because she's a robot?

I mean how can we have justification if we've literally played a 30-minute demo and nothing more?

I'm not holding my breath, but let's at least wait for the finished product and take it from there. Critiquing for the sake of critiquing will not make us progress any further.

 

[Kaisos]

I'm confused. Are sexy characters bad or just sexualization?

It depends on who you're asking and when you're asking it.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I mean how can we have justification if we've literally played a 30-minute demo and nothing more?

I'm not holding my breath, but let's at least wait for the finished product and take it from there. Critiquing for the sake of critiquing will not make us progress any further.

A reminder that people said the EXACT same thing for Quiet.

 

[Hades Hotgun]

I am inerested in all 3 games, though Nier is at the top of my list. While the absence of a female lead bothers me a lot in FFXV, the sexualization in Nier is part of my attraction to the game.


Cindy bothers me more than 2B, but that may just be as a result of finding 2B a more compelling fantasy representation while Cindy is pure window dressing. Also, the batshit Taro tradition disarms me a bit, while Cindy seems a total disconnect from the likes of Farris, Celes, Tifa, Freya, Ashe, and Agrias.

But that doesn't blind me to the obvious reality. For people arguing that 2B's ass isn't actually on constant display...try jump and heavy attack with bracers equipped. Non stop, full on ass shots. You're welcome.

Here's my thing... I am the audience for 2B. Sadly, I am the audience for most characters, western or japanese. I wish 2B wasn't a problematic female representation, but she is. That doesn't mean all the sexy women need to go away, but it does mean we need greater representation to include nonsexy women, sexy men, and all of the various types that don't unanimously pander to people like me. When exposed to that kind of diversity, you just might find that you enjoy characters that otherwise never would have been represented.

By failing to support greater breadth and depth of character representation, we deny ourselves significant opportunity to expand our own enjoyment.

 

[addik]

A reminder that people said the EXACT same thing for Quiet.

I haven't really followed the Quiet debacle since I'm not a fan of MGS, but I really don't see the point of not giving the benefit of the doubt. I do find the reason ridiculous.

Unless of course, developers are offering a survey midway through (a la FFXV), then I'd definitely put it there.

 

[Kinyou]

Oh goddamn it Guerilla!

Please don't tell me that some midriff is now actually a problem.

 

[Kaisos]

A reminder that people said the EXACT same thing for Quiet.

Why does 2B need a justification for her design? A justification would make it worse.

Please don't tell me that some midriff is now actually a problem.

Any exposed skin is a problem for some people lol.

 

[Mattakuevan]

Why does 2B need a justification for her design? A justification would make it worse.


Any exposed skin is a problem for some people lol.

Agreed, its just a nice design that shows a bit of skin. Nothing wrong with that.

The moment they start saying 'oh she's actually showing skin because of ____' is where things can get dicey.

 

[RuinerPrime]

B2 is straight up stylin and has so much swag. people forget the "Rule of Cool". kicking ass in heels is fucking awesome. sexulization was the last thing I thought about when playing.

 

[Mr. Smiley]

A reminder that people said the EXACT same thing for Quiet.

I think a that's fair thing to do in defense for now. When it eventually revealed that Quiet really was nothing more than eyebait, many here, me included after waiting and seeing, called it out on its bulls hit.

But that's not me trying to halt discussion. At the same time, what we have now can still warrant it.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

I don't mind 2B's design. It's kinda cool actually. But I don't like Velvet Crowe's outfit because it's all torn up....

 

[Espada]

Please don't tell me that some midriff is now actually a problem.

There are many different positions on this issue. Some simply want better written, well rounded female characters and don't mind them showing skin. Others want characters whose attire is simply as sensible as the male characters in the same title. But you also have people who are fucking sick of sexualized female characters and want a complete rejection of that mold. This means well written but also donning outfits that cover them up completely, without anything silly like boob socks, camel toe spandex, convenient gaps in clothing, etc...

The Aloy picture gets one group upset because she has gear that will expose her midriff solely for the purpose of showing skin. From their position it makes sense that this is problematic, it's one step in a direction they loathe (SCIV Ivy, Kaine, Quiet, Cindy)

 

[Ferr986]

Why does 2B need a justification for her design? A justification would make it worse.

Taro likes to make justifications for everything, even supposed gameplay limitations like the day/night cycle on Nier 1.

Also yeah, knowing him, wouldn't surprise me if 2B was some kind of sexbot at first lol

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Once you find out why her eyes are covered you will be ashamed of your words and deeds.

Nice reference

 

[UrbanRats]

Please don't tell me that some midriff is now actually a problem.

Hey i was just pointing it out, don't shoot the messanger.

Anyone is free to take that as they will.

 

[Mobile Suit Gooch]

Some simply want better written, well rounded female characters and don't mind them showing skin.

That's me.

 

[Kaisos]

Taro likes to make justifications for everything, even supposed gameplay limitations like the day/night cycle on Nier 1.

Wait, what? That had a justification?

 

[Shredderi]

I'm pretty sure I saw a shirtless male somewhere in Horizon's videos. I don't mind skin really in that setting since it seems to be more tribal in nature. Her default outfit is as good as they come anyway.

 

[Vex_]

Dat tactical midriff!


They don't have to, thankfully.

This is actually REALLY problematic.

 

[Neoleo2143]

Dat tactical midriff!

Ah Goddammit why. They had such good costumes too.

Looks like I'm never putting that thing on.

 

[TheHolyTurnip]

When the default for games is women being overly sexualised for no good reason, I think it is right to be cynical when the character design looks like the usual ones, but they make up some story justification for it.

If you want to make good female characters but you can't even go as far as moving the character design away from the pandering overtly sexualised standard, making up weak story justifications around it is almost worse.

I don't think there even is any actual justification for it in Nier Automata? How is it ok because she's a robot?

But they did make a great female character and you seem to be unwilling to look past anything but her outfit to really see it. You say that the story justification is weak but it's a theme that continues to come up through the game during character interactions. And even if you want to just say she's dressed up to be sexualized the eventual reveal that she's a hermaphrodite works to make you question how you've been looking at the character while playing and what sexuality really is.

Also, Nier Automata is a demo right now, not a full game. No one knows what the reasoning behind her dress is, including you. There's not enough information for judgement or justification.

 

[LotusHD]

I am inerested in all 3 games, though Nier is at the top of my list. While the absence of a female lead bothers me a lot in FFXV, the sexualization in Nier is part of my attraction to the game.


Cindy bothers me more than 2B, but that may just be as a result of finding 2B a more compelling fantasy representation while Cindy is pure window dressing. Also, the batshit Taro tradition disarms me a bit, while Cindy seems a total disconnect from the likes of Farris, Celes, Tifa, Freya, Ashe, and Agrias.

Sorry to harp on this, but I won't lie, I ended up not minding that the main cast was just guys, once the whole road trip thing with just the boys got explained to me. Now that being said, the female characters they did have were dealt a disservice and should've been expanded upon. After all, it says a lot when the arguably most developed female character is the skimpy mechanic everyone was complaining about. And even then, it was lacking. (But then again, it sort of was for most characters, but meh) But yea, concerning the main party, not having a girl in it is no longer something I'd consider as "bothering" me. I respect their decision.

Here's my thing... I am the audience for 2B. Sadly, I am the audience for most characters, western or japanese. I wish 2B wasn't a problematic female representation, but she is. That doesn't mean all the sexy women need to go away, but it does mean we need greater representation to include nonsexy women, sexy men, and all of the various types that don't unanimously pander to people like me. When exposed to that kind of diversity, you just might find that you enjoy characters that otherwise never would have been represented.

By failing to support greater breadth and depth of character representation, we deny ourselves significant opportunity to expand our own enjoyment.

I guess this is basically where I'm at myself. Where I acknowledge that 2B's design could be more appropriate, and that it does ultimately pander to a certain audience, of which I'm apparently a part of. And perhaps due to that, it makes me still feel there's this thin line that the design has not necessarily crossed, hence why I describe 2B's design as classy. (I genuinely do think it is though.) While a character like Cindy also admittedly appeals to me, but her look comes off as being more nonsensical and overt that it's much easier to acknowledge it as such.

 

[Vex_]

Please don't tell me that some midriff is now actually a problem.

It is problematic because it serves no purpose other than"hurt durr I'm sexy look at my tummy".

Why IS that exposed?

Edit:whoops! Forgot my sarcasm tag. Sorry. Please forgive me.

/s

 

[Platy]

The best thing about the increase of women protagonists is the OTHER pattern ..

Dishonored 2, The Last of Us Part II, The Walking Dead: Season 3 and in some ways BioShock Infinite DLC are games that first focused on the player controlling a father/father figure and the sequel give us control of the woman protected by this father figure.

 

[Taruranto]

Ah Goddammit why. They had such good costumes too.

Looks like I'm never putting that thing on.

... Is this sarcasm?

It is problematic because it serves no purpose other than"hurt durr I'm sexy look at my tummy".

Why IS that exposed?

??? I don't know much about Horizon, but isn't it basically "Cavemen fights mechanic dinosaurs"? Seems pretty appropriate for what they were doing.

 

[BigEmil]

Dat tactical midriff!


They don't have to, thankfully.

How the heck is that sexualising you reaching. Suitable standard outfit for hunting in the wild in tribes.
Like how many dressed like that in real life.

 

[RuinerPrime]

It is problematic because it serves no purpose other than"hurt durr I'm sexy look at my tummy".

Why IS that exposed?

really?

why are men shirtless in tropical setting?! god forbid someone has skin shown.

 

[LotusHD]

It is problematic because it serves no purpose other than"hurt durr I'm sexy look at my tummy".

Why IS that exposed?

Posts like this make it so tiring to discuss these sort of topics lol

 

[bryanee]

It is problematic because it serves no purpose other than"hurt durr I'm sexy look at my tummy".

Why IS that exposed?

Or maybe there are different outfits for different areas of the game? In the snowesque mountain area they have showed a lot of she's wearing more fur based outfits and in this tropical area that was shown in the PSpro reveal shes wearing an outfit that has a little more skin on show. Or maybe there are a million outfits to choose from to give every one something to like.

edit - Bloody sarcasm on the internet.

 

[LordGorchnik]

... Is this sarcasm?

All that needs to be said. You have to be joking right?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Please don't tell me that some midriff is now actually a problem.

Dude, there's nothing sensible from an artist perspective for a femalr character to be wearing armor that also completely exposes the midriff, it completely clashes with the aesthetic where they went out of their way to establish a sort of grounded design for the character that makes sense in context, how much you wanna bet that that armor somehow has better stats than several armors that completely protect Aloy based on their design?

Why does 2B need a justification for her design? A justification would make it worse.



Any exposed skin is a problem for some people lol.

Read the above for why that armor design is terrible.

I think a that's fair thing to do in defense for now. When it eventually revealed that Quiet really was nothing more than eyebait, many here, me included after waiting and seeing, called it out on its bulls hit.

But that's not me trying to halt discussion. At the same time, what we have now can still warrant it.

I mean that should've been the assumption from the get go from any reasonable person but holy shit does it seem like wanting to halt discussion whatsoever when it comes to "wait for the full game to come out." When this series already has a history of shit logic justifying fanservicey costume design I think we can call a spade a spade man.

Or maybe there are different outfits for different areas of the game? In the snowesque mountain area they have showed a lot of she's wearing more fur based outfits and in this tropical area that was shown in the PSpro reveal shes wearing an outfit that has a little more skin on show. Or maybe there are a million outfits to choose from to give every one something to like.

edit - Bloody sarcasm on the internet.

In what context would a outfit that exposes your stomach to giant robot dinosaurs/alligators/whatever robot version of a dangerous hostile animal be sensible?

 

[Kenzodielocke]

If thats really too much for you, there are other costumes.

 

[Ferr986]

Wait, what? That had a justification?

Yeah it's on Grimoire Nier. Something about Earth's rotation being messed up but can't remember exactly.

 

[Vex_]

If thats really too much for you, there are other costumes.

OK that one is just offensive because it is ugly. I'll take her default. Thanks.

 

[Mexen]

???

Fairer sex bullets

 

[YianGaruga]

It is problematic because it serves no purpose other than"hurt durr I'm sexy look at my tummy".

Why IS that exposed?

Edit:whoops! Forgot my sarcasm tag. Sorry. Please forgive me.

/s

Dude, there's nothing sensible from an artist perspective for a femalr character to be wearing armor that also completely exposes the midriff, it completely clashes with teh aesthetic where they went out of their way to establish a sort of grounded design for the character that makes sense in context, how much you wanna bet that that armor somehow has better stats than several armors that completely protect Aloy?

Poe's law in action

 

[Vex_]

Poe's law in action

Lol!

 

[Crossing Eden]

Poe's law in action

Maybe you wanna try and provide an explanation for when an exposed midriff with your armor is sensible? I'm genuinely curious about what purpose you think an exposed midriff while wearing armor would serve and need a good laugh.

 

[Pacotez]

Is showing their ass cheeks also a big part of the game?

If it was a male character then it would be ok to be an android?

 

[Vex_]

Maybe you wanna try and provide an explanation for when an exposed midriff with your armor is sensible? I'm genuinely curious about what purpose you think an exposed midriff would serve and need a good laugh.

You're right, CE. There isnt.

*shrugs*

*busts out laughing*

 

[YianGaruga]

Maybe you wanna try and provide an explanation for when an exposed midriff with your armor is sensible?

Doesn't really have to do with what I pointed out here, but because you asked so nicely

Because it's a video game and people want to dress up in video games because they can. Get out of here with your extreme need for """realism""" and let people have some fun. It's getting really old.

Have you ever heard of the term "fashion souls"? People dress up in armor with terrible stats just to look good. People run Souls games completely without armor only in a thong because they can

That's all the justification it needs

If it was the only outfit in the game you MIGHT have a point. As an optional outfit, you sound like a crazy person

I'm genuinely curious about what purpose you think an exposed midriff while wearing armor would serve and need a good laugh.

Are you lauging yet? Because I am

 

[RuinerPrime]

Maybe you wanna try and provide an explanation for when an exposed midriff with your armor is sensible? I'm genuinely curious about what purpose you think an exposed midriff while wearing armor would serve and need a good laugh.

cuz it looks cool and its stylish