Mr. Blonde
Member
Yikes
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Bernie Sanders praises Trump for nixing Trans-Pacific trade deal
- Thread starter Aruarian Reflection
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Yikes
...buuuuut what does this have to do with anything tho?
If it becomes harder for South East Asia to trade with the #1 economy(USA) they will turn to the #2 economy(China)
^^^ People gotta learn to give that inch to gain a mile. You can't just tell them to fuck off and disregard them. There's some common ground somewhere that you can work with to at least get them more on your side than the other side. Do people realize how slim the margins were this past election? So what if someone's a bigot? Instead of trying to stomp them out, you coulda found another place to sway them away from Trump. Everybody gets a vote. I'd have rather had a few extra immoral/hateful/stupid people vote Dem and get us a President Clinton/Sanders than the reality we got now.
Yeah, but the 'fuck 'em' strategy got us Trump, so... And it's not even trying to reach out to the 'people that call Mexicans rapists and criminals'. The left went after the throats of other people on the left.
Why wouldn't it pass Congress? They voted a couple of months ago to authorize fast-track passage of the TPP. The votes are there.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
The conversation about why Trump won and Bernie fans being the true ideologues with frivolous purity tests? Am I just imagining those posts?
If you're going to side with the empiric parts of a poll to make a point, it's unwise to then extrapolate non-empiric reasons to explain the parts you don't like.
Putting aside the issue of whether Bernie should be congratulating Trump on doing things he agrees with, I'm not sure I agree with this whole 'TPP was a generally good thing it just had some bad parts like the whole giving corporations the right to sue the government in private courts for instituting economic laws they don't like'.
I mean, that feels a little bit like saying, 'sure so there was a lethal dose of cyanide in the rice, but the rest of the meal was pretty good!'.
I mean, that feels a little bit like saying, 'sure so there was a lethal dose of cyanide in the rice, but the rest of the meal was pretty good!'.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
People are talking about why Trump won. DICKS AHOY is providing his take on that topic.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I mean, it was probably a really bad idea for the people of all of the countries involved. Sure, it may have helped preserve the hegemony of American corporations and by extension, America, but it certainly wouldn't have helped any average citizen.
Just because someone voted for Obama does not mean they are Democratic voters. For starters, there hasn't been a Presidential candidate in decades that campaigned on whiteness and white fear more directly than Donald Trump. This was not a normal election. Lines were drawn, and Trump voters chose their side.
There are more people who didn't vote than who voted for Trump, and there's ample evidence that a lot of those voters are left leaning. There is no reason to go after the Trump voter. None.
TestOfTide
Banned
And how has WTO been working out so far? Oh that's right, it hasn't done jack shit to stop China's bullshit.
LOL - but your post doesn't even address any of that. "Anybody but Hillary would have won!!!" doesn't address any of that.
Royalan, PLEASE consider the working class white man's feelings though. If people like us hadn't been talking about silly stuff like "civil rights" and "stopping bigotry", they wouldn't have been magically compelled to vote Trump!
legacyzero
Banned
Is that really what you think people are saying? Is that really how you feel about them? You mean to tell me that if you lived in Ohio and your employed pulled your job out from under you and shipped it over seas, and your family is now struggling, you're not gonna vote for the candidate that says they're going to fix that, versus the candidate that SUPPORTS that?? Come on now.
If it were me, I wouldn't give two shits about social issues at that point. I'm gonna do what I can to put food on my table. It's that simple. And you need to stop demonizing those people that made that choice. Stop treating them like shit, because they're gonna fucking turn on you again, come 2020. Take it to the pawn shop.
...So manfuacturing jobs started falling over six years after NAFTA?
EDIT: Oh I see why you were highlighting NAFTA, because the poster you were replying to called NAFTA a net manufacturing job creator. By the looks of it, it's more of a net manufacturing job... Nothing?
OK if they didn't want to hear it from the candidate they believe supported the loss of their jobs why would they want to hear it from the people who voted for that candidate?
I don't give a damn who promised me what. I'm not going to vote for someone that bases their policies over how many muslims they can register, how many immigrant families they can break up, or how many women's reproductive rights they can take. Ever.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
There are several posters here directly saying dems dealing with reluctant Republicans and half the country being fine with racism (nevermind less than a quarter of the country eligible to vote even voted Trump).
My argument is that it's neither and ultimately it's simply that Clinton was an already widely disliked political figure (whether justified or political mudslinging is up to you) who would've had a difficult time with most of the potential Rep. Nominees, let alone Trump. I still feel the Dem party needs change, but before that there's a massive reluctance here to admit Hillary simply wasn't a good candidate that I feel needs to happen first.
I dont think he knows anything about anyone.
SilentRacoon
Member
You just don't understand, we should turn against anyone who dares to actually try and salvage and work with the current administration towards a less disastrous outcome, when he should be mocking and ridiculing the petty attempt of a man, because that sure will come as a striking godsend to those struggling in need of some help.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Can I have Trump's rhetorical cookies?
Also
what does a rhetorical cookie taste like?
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Automation really started gaining traction in the automotive industry in particular (IIRC).
TPP biggest importance was the strategic component to meet China economically and gain leverage in long term negotiations. Now we are giving away soft power and Trump allowing China to use Taiwan and NK as leverage is continuing to weaken US power.
And this argument is stupid when a great number of Hillary's supporters voted for Obama in '08.
People knew she wasn't the best, but the alternative (to many) was even worse.
This is not an actual point of contention.
legacyzero
Banned
Because we can learn from our mistakes too. Clinton was a shit candidate. Period. We have to demand better of the DNC. Better than Hillary. Better than Cory. America is past corporate shill politicians and this election proved that.
Cool. So how can you help voters that don't necessarily share that view. If you have no answer, or an answer that involves demonizing them, try again.
I've said this before and I'll say it again:
WHITE FOLKS AREN'T THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE SUFFERED IN THIS FUCKED UP ECONOMY.
Minorities suffered. That means blacks, latinos, asians, etc. And you know what? Statistically, we suffered WORSE. Because on top of not being able to find a job, we had to deal with all the other ways this bullshit society is rigged against us.
And you know what? Despite how much the minority working class is suffering, by and large we did NOT vote for Trump.
So, excuse me if I don't give a dollar thrift store's worth of fucks about the "economic anxiety" of the white working class.
TestOfTide
Banned
So what about the numerous districts that voted for democrats in 2006 and 2008 but voted for McCain in 2008?
You gonna tell me that those voters are unreachable?
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
People only care about the green line unless you're a business owner.
Yes. It might very well possible that the reduction in jobs would have started sooner without NAFTA. Output and productivity per worker had already been increasing, and without NAFTA to expand the market to sell to there wouldn't be as many workers needed to meet demand. So on that chart I'd imagine you'd see output rising more slowly and employment start falling sooner, if we were to hold output per hour the same.
No she wasn't. This is why I don't know how anyone could support her. She's two faced on many issues. Her VP pick was very pro TPP and she, depending on the crowd, was too.
legacyzero
Banned
Again- if you keep demonizing them, they'll keep their ears closed to you. Minority or not. Also, let's see those receipts. Where's the proof? I've never done that this whole election. Asked for proof. So let's see it.
Stop treating blue voters like shit just because they flipped red, or they're gonna walk away from you again. And grilling somebody because they're white doesnt fucking make their problems go away.
Thanks for the explanation.
I think most people would agree Hillary wasn't an ideal candidate. At best, she was just viewed as the lesser of two evils. I just don't think these people are interested in your olive branch, they're done with talking it out (especially from the left) and they want results. No degree of placating is going to provide that, for them the ball is in Trump's court.
What are you asking for proof of? Be specific.
Also, not grilling people for their whiteness. Point out that black and brown people in this country also suffer is not grilling white people.
If you're watching Fox News as your sole source of news, you're already lost. Any time and effort spent on someone like that is a waste of resources.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Obama in '08 was a wildly popular candidate that even Republicans voted for, how in the hell is that comparable to Clinton in '16? There wasn't remotely that same tension during that election between Obama and Hillary that there was between her and Bernie this election. Most with a bone to pick with Hillary figured she'd win regardless, didn't realise she was trying to play moronic mind games with Trump and exercised their right to either vote third party or not vote.
Nevermind most reports put most Bernie voters ultimately swapping over to Clinton. Again, she was a shit candidate who didn't mobilise people. Obama's message in '08 was hardly focused on McCain/Palin, whereas most of Clinton's was "I am not my opponent".
legacyzero
Banned
Those states were Blue for a long time. They'll stay blue if they're treated properly. Soooo many Obama Voters flipped to Trump because Hillary wasn't just the lesser of the evils. She's just plain horrible, ESPECIALLY for those states.A trade supporting corporatist was never gonna win the rust belt.
But if you offer them up a DECENT candidate like Bernie, an ACTUAL progressive, they'll bite. Oh, and they have to fixing actually campaign there lol.
The entire back and forth between Hillary and Bernie. Bernie was simultaneously called too progressive to win while at the same time the Bernie Bro narrative was spun, during which Bernie supporters were labeled sexist. Conversely we had Bernie or busters who were convinced Hillary was completely awful. We also had people with a 'don't fuck this up for us mentality' anytime anyone dared to criticize Hillary in the GE, even if the criticism was something that could be corrected for her benefit.
If you missed it here, right after the election, the entire political atmosphere on gaf changed dramatically. HillGAF quieted down almost to nothing and a ton of left/progressives [including myself] began to bring up how toxic and unwelcoming things had become, so much so that we had stopped participating here altogether. Hillary voters/dems didn't even want to talk here because of the antagonistic behavior of other dems.
I kind of addressed that in my previous post to Bronx-Man.
The rhetoric about it giving leverage over China was more about saber rattling to get some people to accept the deal. There technically is not much in there that is different from China's recent trade deals. There is nothing for currency manipulation, which is why US automakers opposed it (based on Japan's currency manipulation). If the idea was that it gives China a carrot to sign up with a side agreement to agree to additional provisions outside of the TPP parameters, we should think rationally and consider that China also offers a carrot to TPP members to allow it to join--access to China's market. Japan would be eager to lower Chinese duties on cars, for instance. The proof is in the fact that many of the TPP countries have already been negotiating or concluding free trade deals. The RCEP, which includes many TPP countries, had nearly 26 rounds of negotiations before the US election--these countries are intent on signing a trade deal with China. The actual text of the TPP said that APEC countries (which include China) could join the agreement.
Beyond political rhetoric, it is simply not convincing that the TPP would provide leverage over China. Leverage comes from direct negotiation (like the negotiations over the US-China Bilateral Investment Tresty). Not something that does not have China at the table.
Please provide a source to this 99% statistic. I believe it is false.
Here's a winner of the Nobel prize for Economics, for instance:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/joseph-stiglitz-tpp-1.3515452
Here are some other economists from Tufts University:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/02/...arply-split-over-trade-deal-effects.html?_r=0
I think many economists (and many supporters in general) have not studied the deal and simply pigeon-hole it into certain set beliefs, like "free trade=good". Hate to quote Cato, but they made a good point:
legacyzero
Banned
You LITERALLY just grilled "White working class".
And gimme the proof that Minorities didn't vote for (or even show up) Trump in those areas.
Considering many Obama voters for TWO terms, voted for Trump.
Oh I'm not talking about your ultra conservatives. That's a lost cause until they pass away lol. I'm talking the democrats that left Hillary behind this election.
andrerobot
Member
Are you cereal? That's why you don't think anyone could support her?
Politics are not a black or white, and the TPP had it's good and bad (horrible) parts.
She didn't flip flop depending on the crowd, like Trump. She changed her mind after listening to her base. How is that a bad thing?
Because Clinton/Obama in '08 was a very close race? They were at each other's throats.
That Tension absolutely DID exist- but Bernie was attacking the Democratic Party. Neither Obama nor Clinton was doing that in '08. That's why things never healed up- Bernie was salting the earth.
Those people weren't in the rural areas that overperformed for Trump.
Individually, did some minorities vote for Trump? Sure. Never disputed that.
As demographics, as voting blocks? No the fuck they did not.
Not at all. In a world as grossly unequal as ours, free trade will always be unfair trade.
In countries with wealthier populations and basic labor protections, production can become more expensive than business owners would prefer. So they look to poorer countries with no serious labor protections, where production is cheaper. The governments of poor countries usually tolerate this kind of exploitation because it leads to economic development. Business owners readily relocate their enterprise from Cincinatti to Saigon, putting all of their American workers out of work and entrapping Vietnamese workers (who have no better opportunities) into miserable, brutal labor.
Thus, both first world workers and third world workers are harmed by this arrangement. While this leads to consumer goods being a little bit cheaper, the only people who seriously benefit are business owners. Because politics in the first world and the third are largely driven by business owners, free trade policies are pursued.
activatethesmile
Member
It is quite funny to see you are lambasting people latching on on a word where this is a thread where you got angry because Sanders use the word "delighted", heh.
Barajas_201
Member
I'd rather stop the actual bad guys: America. TPP was bad no matter how you try to spin it. What does it feel like to be on the wrong side of history?
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