Support NeoGAF

[BrownieBrownBrown]

Of course 90% are males here, so they will have a counter opinion to Judge.

 

[Lime]

As a woman, I think the most annoying thing about the issue of sexism in gaming is the automatic defensiveness, the insatiable need by male gamers to single out any and every potential flaw, exaggeration, and metonymy at the greater expense of the big picture argument that the industry as a whole has a problem, which as another poster mentioned stands in a very stark and hypocritical contrast to the argument I always hear when I see minorities asking for more representation- "the market can't support it"- an argument that is unintentionally self-deprecating because it implies an incapability or an intolerance on part of male gamers towards putting in the effort women do to empathize with someone else who's different from them. Ultimately, it's almost as if people are equating a condemnation of the industry and media's flaws as a condemnation of their own character, an idea that an enjoyment of games is an implicit endorsement of the flaws of the medium. This is nonsense, and it's an internalization that's inherently selfish because the issue does not hinge upon the inherent goodness of any individual gamer due to it being a huge systemic problem. So, let's all tackle the systemic problem together instead of knee-jerking a way to explain why we're individually not culpable in the sexism that still obviously hangs over tech.

In short, Ashley's speech rocks and hopefully it changes at least one Gaffer's mind.

To not see characters through a gendered lens comes off as impossible to me. Do you not at all recognize design/physiological, voice, and job/role differences as the characters exist both within a fictional world, which in turn is built off of the singular context that is the human experience of the developers and designers responsible, all of who in turn exist in the real world where gender identity and institutional misogyny undoubtedly exist to color their world views? In other words, is every distinctly-designed character literally just some amorphous blob to you with absolutely no gender signifiers whatsoever? Surely not. I imagine you do recognize gender differences, but you either don't pay attention or you don't consciously count them in your assessment of how you evaluate a character; fairly easy to do as someone with at least one majority identifier. I mean, I'm straight, and I don't particularly care about the straight inclinations of characters either because I live in a world where heterosexuality is so common and accepted that I'm subsequently desensitized to the existence of any single straight character. In general though, not judging a character on the basis of gender representation is fine as a personal aptitude, but ultimately it does absolutely nothing for me as a woman with far less positive representation at the helm to personally enjoy in the medium nor as someone with a remote stake in seeing the tech industry work towards a more friendly and welcoming environment for women.

Just as well, why do you imply that minority representation, even minority representation for the sake of making a political point, is any more particularly shoehorned than majority representation? Why is it that characters that are women or other minorities- and subsequently my existence- inherently politicized and pandering or hinge on some ulterior reason to exist, and yet straight male characters are somehow a natural consequence of "artistic expression?" Do straight male characters not like seeing themselves in leading roles either? I would assume they would, otherwise I feel like they wouldn't be over-represented nor would straight male gamers in general be so hostile to even games that rely on entirely new minority characters from scratch without encroaching on the identity of any existing characters elsewhere.



More leading and primary roles (More Aloys), more variety of roles (more grunts, non-romantic sidekicks, and comedic roles), greater access to the library of character design attributes male characters use regularly (more monsters like Riptor), more ability to customize a character when appropriate (more Pokemon Trainers) and a lessening of out-of-place sexual fan service (less weird sexual grunting when getting hurt or killed in the TR reboot). Subsequently, an increase in male sexuality geared specifically towards women would be nice too, which isn't the same as generic male power fantasy designs. If I have to live with jiggle physics, certainly I can stand to see a few more bulging packages and unnecessary shirtless-ness here and there.

Thank you for these posts.

 

[RRockman]

The mra response to this doesn't surprise me. Keep on gafing, gaming gaf.

Because people in this thread are piling on a woman who's speaking up about sexism in an attempt to silence and/or dismiss her. It's blatant misogyny from some people and it's a stain on the GAF community.

I noticed you said People and not EVERYONE. Lime. While that is true Ekai seems to fail to consider that there are people that agree/Lean more to Judd's side that simply haven't posted. I could say something dumb about people like Ekai but when I last checked two wrongs don't make a right. As a lurker who posts here or there dude to my job schedule sweeping posts incenses me just as much as the people saying rude things here.

 

[travisbickle]

She's wrong, gamers don't maim and dump women for sport in games, that would imply some kind of rivalry between gamers in doing it. They do it because they collectively have a pure hatred for women and it's a way of release.

 

[fvng]

You can have sex with a prostitutes, kill her, get your money back and get rewarded for it! You can sexually assault women in GTA and get rewarded for it. It's very clearly about GTA.

If that one line is a reason to disregard the talk, it says more about you and your leaping to the defence of gaming than Ashley Judd.

Edit: second paragraph isn't about you specifically by the way.

We need to stop pretending that every game is GTA. It's amazing that this industry is constantly judged and generalized by that one series. This is like only watching Adam Sandler movies and making a blanket statement that all film is bad.

 

[CrustyBritches]

IMHO as a white male, having more women and people of all races in lead game development positions would lead to many of the problems to sort themselves out.

I agree more female participation in the development process would be helpful to the gamers who have a less-than-optimal experience. Character creators go a long way in this regard as well.

I don't honestly know the percentage of women working in the gaming industry. In my educational experience, there were only 1 or 2 women in each of the CS-oriented classes I took, and basically none in HS. I don't know why that was, as the males in CS classes tend to be anti-macho, nerdy/tech-focused, and welcoming to females. Especially in HS, girls weren't being excluded from C++ class by the nerd boys, they were making fun of them and largely showing zero interest in associating with them. In a biology or chemistry course there would be a balanced ratio, but all through HS there was only a single girl to take a programming class at my school.

I feel if we could understand why only one girl wanted to program, then I feel we can understand an aspect of the lack of representation in the industry and in games.

 

[Lime]

I feel if we could understand why only one girl wanted to program, then I feel we can understand an aspect of the lack of representation in the industry and in games.

If you want to know why many people don't want to work in video games, you don't have to look further than this thread (and all the other instances of discrimination in the industry itself and in gaming culture at large)

 

[Vincent Grayson]

If you want to know why many people don't want to work in video games, you don't have to look further than this thread (and all the other instances of discrimination in the industry itself and in gaming culture at large)

Yup. I've heard from several women who worked in gaming in particular, and then moved to another tech industry, that it's a world of difference in how they're treated. This goes doubly so for women in customer-facing roles (like community managers).

 

[george_us]

The game industry's collective silence on gamergate speaks volumes louder than anything else they have done or not done. The people who spoke out against GG are to be commended, but the general radio silence is cowardice verging on implicit support at a senior management level.

This is what really bothered me. The industry basically stayed silent as a whole on the entire issue. Naughty Dog was the only studio to really say anything if I remember correctly. Then again people like Palmer Luckey are probably far more prevalent in the gaming industry than we know.

 

[krazen]

We need to stop pretending that every game is GTA. It's amazing that this industry is constantly judged and generalized by that one series. This is like only watching Adam Sandler movies and making a blanket statement that all film is bad.

Problem is GTA is closer to the norm then Beyond Good and Evil, nahmean?

People take her "Maim and kill woman" at face value but see nothing wrong with a cutscene with a side characters breasts popping out of her shirt for no reason as if its not the same thing. Ultimately gamers are fine with a level of misogyny and arguably racism in their games and its a long term industry problem. Dudes twist themselves to point out minute flaws with textures but point out that its weird for a characters thong to be easily visible for no real reason and its, "IT DOESNT MATTER!!" lol

 

[CrustyBritches]

If you want to know why many people don't want to work in video games, you don't have to look further than this thread (and all the other instances of discrimination in the industry itself and in gaming culture at large)

This thread seems pretty tame to me.

This is certainly part of puzzle, but it doesn't address my question. Why only one girl in the programming classes in 4yrs? None of us had exposure to the game development industry. Although being in Oregon we had many classmates with family who worked for Intel.

My daughter will be in HS soon and I hope she chooses to at least dabble in software engineering. She is fairly proficient in DAZ Studio and Bryce and even has some ability in UDK. Hoping she chooses a career in the gaming industry.

 

[Ketkat]

This is certainly part of puzzle, but it doesn't address my question. Why only one girl in the programming classes in 4yrs? None of us had exposure to the game development industry. Although being in Oregon we had many classmates with family who worked for Intel.
.

Flip it this way. We had 1 girl in our shop classes in High School. Why do you think that is?

Can you see how it would be seen as a boys club? How if a girl did sign up for it she might be discouraged by friends/counselors?

 

[BaasRed]

Come on now, much more men are killed in video games than women. "Men become heroes far more than victims" is an illogical statement. And the representation issue is not even that, it's that men are just far more represented in every sort of role (except sidekick, I guess).

Even having female brutes/common enemies in shooters would go a long way, but that doesn't make the "men are more often the heroes than the victims" statement correct.

Edit: I still don't understand how you can write an annoying, insistent and aggressive minor female character without being sexist if that's the "bitch" stereotype. And honestly I feel that creating such a character is perfectly okay.

I phrased my point idiotically and incorrectly. I do agree with you.

 

[RichiRamjag]

Of course 90% are males here, so they will have a counter opinion to Judge.

What a small-minded thing to assume.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

This is what really bothered me. The industry basically stayed silent as a whole on the entire issue. Naughty Dog was the only studio to really say anything if I remember correctly. Then again people like Palmer Luckey are probably far more prevalent in the gaming industry than we know.

I'm with you. I continue to be baffled as to why the entire industry did not come together and say "No, this shit stops now". The size of the GG movement has never been such that fear of reprisal or losing sales was a reasonable excuse, especially if the industry had acted together.

 

[BaasRed]

I'm with you. I continue to be baffled as to why the entire industry did not come together and say "No, this shit stops now". The size of the GG movement has never been such that fear of reprisal or losing sales was a reasonable excuse, especially if the industry had acted together.

There is a problem here. If the entire industry does band together, whoever doesn't join in reaps the benefits of this action anyway. This means that a company can invest in anti harassment, but other companies don't need to invest to benefit from it too. More women in gaming = more women in all games, so why bother trying if the good Samaritan company next door will do it for you? This creates a waiting game of who goes first. After that, everyone will follow suit because the risk was carried out for them rather than on them (at least I hope so :/ ).

 

[CrustyBritches]

Flip it this way. We had 1 girl in our shop classes in High School. Why do you think that is?

Can you see how it would be seen as a boys club? How if a girl did sign up for it she might be discouraged by friends/counselors?

That wouldn't explain the heavy female presence in weightlifting classes, where at least a 1/4in of testosterone was coating every surface in the room. What's puzzling too was the balanced presence in Website Design and Office Productivity.

I think you're onto something with friends, family, and counselors being more encouraging towards alternate career paths. Mobile development seems more acceptable as your average guiding influence on kids can better understand the lucrative nature of making apps, but probably sees games as less serious.

Disappointing to hear women having extra shitty experiences in game development in addition to some of the already poor practices you'd see. The indie scene seems to have a better balance compared to AAA.

 

[fvng]

Problem is GTA is closer to the norm then Beyond Good and Evil, nahmean?

People take her "Maim and kill woman" at face value but see nothing wrong with a cutscene with a side characters breasts popping out of her shirt for no reason as if its not the same thing. Ultimately gamers are fine with a level of misogyny and arguably racism in their games and its a long term industry problem. Dudes twist themselves to point out minute flaws with textures but point out that its weird for a characters thong to be easily visible for no real reason and its, "IT DOESNT MATTER!!" lol

"You can have sex with a prostitutes, kill her, get your money back and get rewarded for it! You can sexually assault women in GTA and get rewarded for it. It's very clearly about GTA"

this is closer to the norm? huh? what other games do this? get back to me, in the mean time i'll be playing gravity rush 2 and beyond: two souls which just went on sale on psn

 

[Nepenthe]

It's not impossible at all. For instance, when you play Super Mario 2 do you feel like a plumber when you are Mario, a princess when you are Peach, or a mushroom when you are Toad? To me the character is simply an avatar that represents my mind's presence and control of the game world. You see Boy/Girl, Mario/Peach, but I see speed and precision hangtime/hover ability. Nothing represents the character more than their gameplay implementation.

You've moved the goal posts; you're talking about empathy now versus the simple recognition of physiological traits in a character. I don't empathize with Mario characters' jobs because more often than not their titles aren't significantly relevant to the game experience unlike, say, Papers Please where the mechanics and narrative are contextualized by your job title and thus I do "feel" like an immigration officer. But like in Papers Please where I know even the faceless avatar is male through context like sexual solicitations and pronoun usage, I am always aware that Mario is a man and Peach is a woman because of how they look and are referred to, and I understand that more often than not rescuing Peach is usually the end goal and she rarely has any agency because she's a stereotypical damsel in distress, which in turn is partly responsible for leaving me disappointed in most Mario games' narratives. Gender has an effect, however mild, on the way the Mario games are made, and because I'm a woman I'm always acutely aware of these effects.

I think you answer your own question. If the developer is not attempting to represent gender, race, or action based on political motivation, then suddenly altering their approach for the sake of conformity to something they don't understand, or aren't aware of comes off as insincere and possibly even insulting. I prefer design based around coolness and functionality rather than political motivation.

I feel this answer completely takes away the intelligence and work ethic of game developers. White men still largely run the film industry and yet there has always been a willingness to create women characters in earnest, even if they can be further critiqued. The most profitable film company on Earth started by and continues to adapt and outright make up princess stories and put women as the leads, and they manage this through relying on their own experiences with the women in their lives (surely game developers too have mothers, sisters, aunts, and other women in their lives to, you know, talk to?), their own life experience (Zootopia's director nailed intersectionality in part because he's gay), and research of locations, customs, and action analysis. There is absolutely nothing from an artistic angle barring male game developers from putting in the same effort for any reason other than a dogged unwillingness to bother trying because a straight male character is an arbitrarily easy design to default to. Anyone, male or female, can do it on the spot.

But I think the more salient questions come from asking why straight males are an easy default for anyone to base a character on when "artistic freedom" allows you to create anything. In a field of theoretically boundless imagination where you can indeed play as a damn sentient mushroom with a vest and shoes, why does imagination actively become stunted when we talk about the real life demographic that is women? Subsequently, why is it taken for granted that I as a black woman am almost expected to empathize with Nathan Drake when I cannot get the same courtesy for even white women characters in return? What is it about my existence that makes gamers recoil and project onto developers this insulting burden and unnecessary politicization that other types of creators and enthusiasts have less of a problem addressing with a willingness to meet the challenge?

Hell yeah I can get on-board with almost all of this. I never perceived a sexual nature to Lara's death sequences. Thought it was some aggressive Maria Sharapova voice-over on display.

I'm sorry, but some of the moans she made completely turned me off, and coupled with the attempted sexual assault scene and the fact that it was supposed to be her triumphant comeback, all I could think was "typical."

 

[Crossing Eden]

The abuse and mistreatment Sarkeesian and other well-known feminists face is disgusting (I am a long-term fan Rebecca Watson, and the 'elevator incident' made me feel ill). I don't doubt her commitment and sincerity when it comes to feminism and the representation of women in media. I acknowledge that I was way too harsh and out of line in my post. My issue with her stems from the footage of her saying she hates video games and never plays them, then she positioned herself as a champion for women in gaming. I realise this footage could have been taken entirely out of context or misrepresented by those "herpaderp grlz not reel gamrz" types. There's also the possibility that she saw a mainstream media industry in desperate need of somebody to speak up about the grave gender imbalances, rampant sexism and horrific abuse, and decided to try and do some good there. I see that this is something I should look into further; thanks for the homework GAF. My misguided, head-up-my-own-ass opinions aside, I really am a big fan of Sarkeesian's Tropes vs Women videos, and admire her courage, intelligence and hard work.

Back on the topic of the OP; I just watched the video again because my wife wanted to see it. I choke up when she opens reading those social media comments aimed at her.

The narrative that she hates video games and never plays them is fake news perpetuated by GG.

 

[LionPride]

I like how some people act like because there are a few games with female protags, that there is no issue. It's cute.

 

[krazen]

"You can have sex with a prostitutes, kill her, get your money back and get rewarded for it! You can sexually assault women in GTA and get rewarded for it. It's very clearly about GTA"

this is closer to the norm? huh? what other games do this? get back to me, in the mean time i'll be playing gravity rush 2 and beyond: two souls which just went on sale on psn

Ill be running around with 44DDD breasts as R. Mika in Street Fighter in a thong so small its absorbed by her ass. See how easy that was?

To point out, "WHAT? ITS ONLY ONE GAME THATS SO FUCKED UP DAWG, SO NOT A PROBLEM" doesnt negate the bigger issue.

Ashley Judd is speaking in hyperbole but it doesn't negate the fact its a problem. You guys are like, "OMG, that speech about climate change had a grammar error, plus the earth only went up 3 degrees not 4, CLIMATE CHANGE TOTALLY FAKE, lol"

Also the fact its gotten better as far as alternate choices, more non sexualized models in games, and there are some valid non-mysogynstic arguably pro woman choices (Gravity Rush) doesnt negate we are still fucking up.

 

[PtM]

She's wrong, gamers don't maim and dump women for sport in games, that would imply some kind of rivalry between gamers in doing it. They do it because they collectively have a pure hatred for women and it's a way of release.

Sport is more than competition. It can also mean pastime. Or amusement.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Even though the gaming community and industry has a sexism issue?

Obviously people are allowed to have their own point of view and debate can be healthy. If the gaming industry has a sexism problem, i certainly havent seen widespread evidence of this.

 

[Nepenthe]

Obviously people are allowed to have their own point of view and debate can be healthy. If the gaming industry has a sexism problem, i certainly havent seen widespread evidence of this.

Who honestly cares what you've personally seen? What authority are you in the matter that you not personally seeing evidence means it's not an issue?

Women gamers and industry workers have been telling you it's a problem for years.

Instead of trying to relegate the problem to the "fringe" (GG is not fringe; it made national news and continues to be emboldened in an increasingly tolerant environment of Nazism, nor does it address casual sexism anyway), and instead of immediately going to label women who speak up about the issue as outsiders in order to find a reason to dismiss them, maybe put aside your own myopic defensiveness and listen.

 

[Lime]

Obviously people are allowed to have their own point of view and debate can be healthy. If the gaming industry has a sexism problem, i certainly havent seen widespread evidence of this.

Read this: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=957274

 

[ViolentP]

Who honestly cares what you've personally seen? What authority are you in the matter that you not personally seeing evidence means it's not an issue?

Women gamers and industry workers have been telling you it's a problem for years.

Instead of trying to relegate the problem to the "fringe" (GG is not fringe; it made national news and continues to be emboldened in an increasingly tolerant environment of Nazism, nor does it address casual sexism anyway), and instead of immediately going to label women who speak up about the issue as outsiders in order to find a reason to dismiss them, maybe put aside your own myopic defensiveness and listen.

Perhaps that they haven't seen it would make it a good opportunity to explain the situation and in turn getting one other person to understand the issues instead of sitting on your high horse and attacking them for not knowing what may be obvious to you.

 

[*Splinter]

Obviously people are allowed to have their own point of view and debate can be healthy. If the gaming industry has a sexism problem, i certainly havent seen widespread evidence of this.

If you haven't seen any evidence yet then you've done a damn good job of avoiding it.

 

[Sandoval]

Anyway, I agree with her. It's even small stuff like Shepard punching that reporter. I never thought it was funny, it just seemed really unnecessary.

But Shepard is a girl...

That scene looks way worse with a Man-shep.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Who honestly cares what you've personally seen? What authority are you in the matter that you not personally seeing evidence means it's not an issue?

Women gamers and industry workers have been telling you it's a problem for years.

Instead of trying to relegate the problem to the "fringe" (GG is not fringe; it made national news and continues to be emboldened in an increasingly tolerant environment of Nazism, nor does it address casual sexism anyway), and instead of immediately going to label women who speak up about the issue as outsiders in order to find a reason to dismiss them, maybe put aside your own myopic defensiveness and listen.

Im speaking to the content of the games themselves. I dont see a widespread use of sexist content. Obviously im not a industry insider

 

[CrustyBritches]

You've moved the goal posts; you're talking about empathy now versus the simple recognition of physiological traits in a character.

My only goal is to share. I'm simply explaining that I perceive them as what they can do, rather than what they look like. In my game perception, I see abilities and coolness/attitude, not gender. You could sprite swap Peach and Mario and I would not identify them based on appearance. I would say that is not Peach, because she can hover. At some tertiary level I realize Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man represent different genders, but it is my consciousness being chased by the ghosts, so it has no effect on my experience. Chess is a even better example.

I see where you're coming from. I just wanted to share that for a good deal of people, even males, gender of an avatar is irrelevant. Lara, Chun li, and Bayonetta are badasses because of their attitudes and abilities which are best expressed through gameplay, so it's different than film that relies heavily on narrative and suspension of disbelief. I realize this experience might be different for somebody heavily invested in narrative and world construct. There is nothing wrong with wanting more fem heroes, less romantic npcs, and more Riptors. I can get behind all that.

I think the best way to effect change is to continue to make articulate and respectable arguments of the benefits of more diversity for gamers, like you did here. Thanks for the dialogue.

 

[PtM]

My only goal is to share. I'm simply explaining that I perceive them as what they can do, rather than what they look like. In my game perception, I see abilities and coolness/attitude, not gender. You could sprite swap Peach and Mario and I would not identify them based on appearance. I would say that is not Peach, because she can hover. At some tertiary level I realize Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man represent different genders, but it is my consciousness being chased by the ghosts, so it has no effect on my experience. Chess is a even better example.

I see where you're coming from. I just wanted to share that for a good deal of people, even males, gender of an avatar is irrelevant. Lara, Chun li, and Bayonetta are badasses because of their attitudes and abilities which are best expressed through gameplay, so it's different than film that relies heavily on narrative and suspension of disbelief. I realize this experience might be different for somebody heavily invested in narrative and world construct. There is nothing wrong with wanting more fem heroes, less romantic npcs, and more Riptors. I can get behind all that.

I think the best way to effect change is to continue to make articulate and respectable arguments of the benefits of more diversity for gamers, like you did here. Thanks for the dialogue.

How convenient that those initial examples are all rather abstracted experiences rather than concrete or "cinematic" (ugh) storytellings.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

We need to stop pretending that every game is GTA. It's amazing that this industry is constantly judged and generalized by that one series. This is like only watching Adam Sandler movies and making a blanket statement that all film is bad.

Well, there is the small matter that GTA5 sales are > than PS4, Xbox One, and Wii U combined.

Not that I think GTA's open world design is inherently sexist - the ability to commit awful crimes is inherent to any open-world game design.

 

[Ketkat]

Im speaking to the content of the games themselves. I dont see a widespread use of sexist content. Obviously im not a industry insider

What about the recent example from the Zelda series. When talked to about Zelda being the main character of a game, Nintendo's reponse was : "What would Link do?"

 

[PtM]

Well, there is the small matter that GTA5 sales are > than PS4, Xbox One, and Wii U combined.

Not that I think GTA's open world design is inherently sexist - the ability to commit awful crimes is inherent to any open-world game design.

You can't rape in GTA though. There's always a line drawn, it's just gamers would whine if it tightened.

 

[Stormforger]

Hey Ashley, take a look at Hollywood movies and how they depict women. I can name countless films where women are beaten, treated as sex objects, treated as idiots, etc. etc. etc. Then take a look at the Porn industry. You have 1000's of women, young and old, voluntarily participating in THAT. I would say the Porn industry is the biggest problem by far in why women are treated so badly in general. Most teenage kids treat women as sex objects earlier and earlier because of the porn industry.

Clean that crap up before you start targeting video games.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

What about the recent example from the Zelda series. When talked to about Zelda being the main character of a game, Nintendo's reponse was : "What would Link do?"

Judd's comment was about how the gaming industry makes billions of dollars from games that involve maiming and deplorable acts against women. Its 100 percent false in my opinion that women are consistently depicted in this fashion. I dont think anyone can legitimately substantiate this, although that hasnt stopped others from trying and everyone is entitled to their own perspective. No offense to her but this is just ignorance from someone who doesnt game on a regular basis. She should have restricted her comments to sexism within the industry workplace which is a problem.

 

[Icedburden]

A small sample of games "done right" don't act as a shield for anything else.

I agree. But, also not acknowledging those that ARE trying to be a positive push forward makes the argument a bit ignorant.

 

[CrustyBritches]

How convenient that those initial examples are all rather abstracted experiences rather than concrete or "cinematic" (ugh) storytellings.

I am a gameplay first type of gamer, and largely loath games attempting a cinematic approach. I explained that the essential experience is different than film, and for people invested in that type of game.

I have played Wii Sports with people who would not start a game without selecting they're own Mii. I have no qualms about wanting more female devs, as I shared that's a hope I have for my daughter.

I simply wanted to advise against assuming sexism and misogyny are primary drivers for all male devs and gamers. Also, to advise against watching Bugs if you dislike the plot of Overboard.

 

[Mael]

Hey Ashley, take a look at Hollywood movies and how they depict women. I can name countless films where women are beaten, treated as sex objects, treated as idiots, etc. etc. etc. Then take a look at the Porn industry. You have 1000's of women, young and old, voluntarily participating in THAT. I would say the Porn industry is the biggest problem by far in why women are treated so badly in general. Most teenage kids treat women as sex objects earlier and earlier because of the porn industry.

Clean that crap up before you start targeting video games.

The "starving children in Africa" defense, haven't seen that in a while /s

 

[Lime]

People who don't care about characters are usually the ones who somehow are quick to make sure everyone knows that they don't care about characters. Especially in a thread related to the importance of characters. Weird, huh?

Hey Ashley, take a look at Hollywood movies and how they depict women. I can name countless films where women are beaten, treated as sex objects, treated as idiots, etc. etc. etc. Then take a look at the Porn industry. You have 1000's of women, young and old, voluntarily participating in THAT. I would say the Porn industry is the biggest problem by far in why women are treated so badly in general. Most teenage kids treat women as sex objects earlier and earlier because of the porn industry.

Clean that crap up before you start targeting video games.

Serious question: When you write this post, do you think about the fact that your response is to a woman coming out and speaking about the sexism and harassment she experienced? Another human being is coming out and telling you about the stuff she has experienced (and that many others can subscribe to), and your reaction is that she is a hypocrite

Judd's comment was about how the gaming industry makes billions of dollars from games that involve maiming and deplorable acts against women. Its 100 percent false in my opinion that women are consistently depicted in this fashion. I dont think anyone can legitimately substantiate this, although that hasnt stopped others from trying and everyone is entitled to their own perspective. No offense to her but this is just ignorance from someone who doesnt game on a regular basis. She should have restricted her comments to sexism within the industry workplace which is a problem.

From where do you know that she doesn't "game"? Is it because she's a woman and you assume that women don't play games? And why should her experience be dismissed even if it is the case that Judd doesn't game? Are 'gamers' the only one people should listen to?

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Hey Ashley, take a look at Hollywood movies and how they depict women. I can name countless films where women are beaten, treated as sex objects, treated as idiots, etc. etc. etc. Then take a look at the Porn industry. You have 1000's of women, young and old, voluntarily participating in THAT. I would say the Porn industry is the biggest problem by far in why women are treated so badly in general. Most teenage kids treat women as sex objects earlier and earlier because of the porn industry.

Clean that crap up before you start targeting video games.

The "starving children in Africa" defense, haven't seen that in a while /s

Pretty sure he never mentioned children or africa in the post.

 

[Ketkat]

Pretty sure he never mentioned children or africa in the post.

Its a saying. Saying that some other industry is worse off than the gaming industry means you can't talk about the gaming industry's problems. Its the saying "Don't complain about that food because there are starving kids in Africa who would love to eat it" Its just kind of bullshit and doesn't accomplish anything besides trying to shut down the conversation

 

[Mael]

Pretty sure he never mentioned children or africa in the post.

I'm half of a mind actually drawing you a picture...
it's short for "we can't anything about <something> as long as there's still starving children in Africa" because that's we can only do 1 thing at a time and we certainly can't solve an issue if there is another issue elsewhere.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

I'm half of a mind actually drawing you a picture...
it's short for "we can't anything about <something> as long as there's still starving children in Africa" because that's we can only do 1 thing at a time and we certainly can't solve an issue if there is another issue elsewhere.

Okay got it. Just had never heard that expression before

 

[LionPride]

Pretty sure he never mentioned children or africa in the post.

Boi

 

[Nerazar]

Well, there is the small matter that GTA5 sales are > than PS4, Xbox One, and Wii U combined.

Not that I think GTA's open world design is inherently sexist - the ability to commit awful crimes is inherent to any open-world game design.

If sales are an indication, then we would have to take a look at games like Minecraft as well or FarmVille or whatever MOBA is being played right now. I don't see a problem there.

The industry is more than "just" GTA. And even this example will probably not hold out for much longer if R* decides to include a female protagonist. Then, the game is balanced, fair and no longer sexist in any way. I guess.

 

[Mael]

Okay got it. Just had never heard that expression before

I'm sorry if I'm a bit blunt, my last experience with a willingly ignorant poster yesterday did no favor in me expecting anything from posters in this thread.
And that's why "I don't know anything about GG but hear me out on my ignorant position based on nothing but I'll refuse to see any evidence that could counter my PoV" is so toxic to discussion.

 

[PtM]

I am a gameplay first type of gamer, and largely loath games attempting a cinematic approach. I explained that the essential experience is different than film, and for people invested in that type of game.

I have played Wii Sports with people who would not start a game without selecting they're own Mii. I have no qualms about wanting more female devs, as I shared that's a hope I have for my daughter.

I simply wanted to advise against assuming sexism and misogyny are primary drivers for all male devs and gamers. Also, to advise against watching Bugs if you dislike the plot of Overboard.

The people who only see gameplay and are even able to not register the whole package offered must be an anomaly at best.

Sexism is almost never a primary driver. Sexism is defined by being rooted so deeply that it works from the subconscious.

 

[krazen]

Hey Ashley, take a look at Hollywood movies and how they depict women. I can name countless films where women are beaten, treated as sex objects, treated as idiots, etc. etc. etc. Then take a look at the Porn industry. You have 1000's of women, young and old, voluntarily participating in THAT. I would say the Porn industry is the biggest problem by far in why women are treated so badly in general. Most teenage kids treat women as sex objects earlier and earlier because of the porn industry.

Clean that crap up before you start targeting video games.

Sexism/pay disrecepancy is a big issue in Hollywood thats made big headlines in the past few years. We can do multiple things at one time.

Problem is that when called out on it at least Hollywood acknowledges there's a problem; here it seems we attack the messenger and stick our heads in the sand.