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[Linkura]

Lock if old.

http://www.polygon.com/2017/1/21/14...iteering-off-misogyny-in-video-games-must-end

Actor Ashley Judd singled out the games industry as part of a TED Talk that confronted the abuse of women online. Although Judd made the speech in October, the talk just made its way to YouTube a few days ago. She scorned the industry for its callous treatment of women, and specifically for its hypocritical stance on GamerGate behind closed doors.

In the 15-minute presentation she spoke out loud the abuse thrown at her online every day.

At one point she derided the games industry as a whole, saying that “profiteering off misogyny in video games must end.”

“I’m so tired of hearing you talk to me,” Judd said, pretending to rebut a seemingly private conversation she recently had with an industry professional, “about how deplorable hashtag-GamerGate was when you’re still making billions of dollars off games that maim and dump women for sport.”

I don't think Ashley Judd is a gamer, from what I can tell, but apparently has been specifically targeted by GGers for comments she has made. No one deserves any kind of abuse. Thoughts on her words?

Personally, I do think the gaming industry can do more, but there are assholes everywhere in every industry and hobby... especially in the movie industry that she works in, and I think that Hollywood can often be just as bad, and sometimes worse, than the gaming industry in its treatment of women. Then you have sites like Twitter that refuse to police their own damn sites for abuse. There's a lot of blame to go around. The buck doesn't start and end with the gaming industry.

 

[TemplaerDude]

Kind of hard to disagree.

 

[Team Filler]

But mah teebaggin'!

 

[perfectchaos007]

when you’re still making billions of dollars off games that maim and dump women for sport.”

Damn that sounds harsh. I haven't been following gamergate but what are some examples of games that do this? Mostly RPG anime games?

 

[Eolz]

when you’re still making billions of dollars off games that maim and dump women for sport.”

Is that a reference to specific games? Not a native speaker, so I'm not sure if I understand well, but is she talking about games mutilating women, and on top of that, selling well?

 

[bomblord1]

Lock if old.

http://www.polygon.com/2017/1/21/14...iteering-off-misogyny-in-video-games-must-end



I don't think Ashley Judd is a gamer, from what I can tell, but apparently has been specifically targeted by GGers for comments she has made. No one deserves any kind of abuse. Thoughts on her words?

Personally, I do think the gaming industry can do more, but there are assholes everywhere in every industry and hobby... especially in the movie industry that she works in, and I think that Hollywood can often be just as bad, and sometimes worse, than the gaming industry in its treatment of women. Then you have sites like Twitter that refuse to police their own damn sites for abuse. There's a lot of blame to go around. The buck doesn't start and end with the gaming industry.

I'm sure this thread will be an absolute shining example of cooperation, understanding, and compromise.

On topic: to the bolded even if something else is "just as as bad" doesn't justify the existence of it it just means there are even more problems to fix. A person also can't right all the wrongs in the world so seeking to fix or bring attention to something that is bad when something else is "just as bad" is not hypocritical or negative it's just seeking to fix one example of a problem.

 

[zombieshavebrains]

Who is Ashley Judge?

 

[fabricated backlash]

I agree, but I doubt anything will really happen. The industry knows that they helped cultivate this toxic shitpile, and they're not ready to stop reaping the money from that investment.

 

[moltonasty]

But mah teebaggin'!

Gamers were a mistake, they're nothing but trash.

 

[PBY]

Nailed it.

 

[D1renegade]

"games that maim and dump women for sport".

I can't think of any game that does this..

 

[RedZaraki]

Tell that to the Japanese developers.

I love their games, but the sexist stuff is like twice as common from that side of the pond.

 

[Arkage]

Is that a reference to specific games? Not a native speaker, so I'm not sure if I understand well, but is she talking about games mutilating women, and on top of that, selling well?

I feel like this is hinting at the GTA "run over hookers and steal their money" rabbithole, but not sure...

 

[Griss]

What games 'main and dump women for sport'? What is she talking about here, exactly?

If there are games like this, they're certainly niche products. On-screen gender-specific violence against women doesn't seem to be an industry problem to me...

 

[Kacho]

Who is Ashley Judge?

Actress that was mildly popular in random 90's movies.

 

[PBY]

"games that maim and dump women for sport".

I can't think of any game that does this..

I can, and there are many games that while not directly doing this, portray women very problematically.

However, I think it best to focus on her actual message instead of pushing back on a very small piece of her point.

 

[RedZaraki]

"games that maim and dump women for sport".

I can't think of any game that does this..

 

[yunbuns]

Damn that sounds harsh. I haven't been following gamergate but what are some examples of games that do this? Mostly RPG anime games?

Well Tomb Raider (2013) had some really gruesome death scenes and went out of their way to hurt Lara. In the very beginning of the game she gets punched in the face and then has a large nail stabbed in her gut. I'm sure that the developers had no ill intent but I know it bothered people.

Anyway, I agree with her. It's even small stuff like Shepard punching that reporter. I never thought it was funny, it just seemed really unnecessary.

 

[Linkura]

I'm sure this thread will be an absolute shining example of cooperation, understanding, and compromise.

On topic: to the bolded even if something else is "just as as bad" doesn't justify the existence of it it just means there are even more problems to fix. A person also can't right all the wrongs in the world so seeking to fix or bring attention to something that is bad when something else is "just as bad" is not hypocritical or negative it's just seeking to fix one example of a problem.

I made one about Brianna Wu running for Congress a while back and everyone was civil. I expect the same behavior in this thread. Don't let me down, GAF.

I agree with your assessment as well. I just wanted to point out that the game industry isn't entirely to blame... there's a lot of societal factors as well. But of course the gaming industry shoulders a good deal of it.

 

[Basketball]

"You’re still making billions of dollars off games that maim and dump women for sport.”

we talking guro stuff or what

 

[DarkConfidant]

Good point, though perhaps poorly worded.

The maim and dump thing is going to require someone to either have played games that do that, or to have played zero games and then imagine that about most/all games.
Otherwise, it seems an odd wording to make such a point.

I might actually watch this, though I normally don't like TED stuff.

 

[Griss]

I can, and there are many games that while not directly doing this, portray women very problematically.

However, I think it best to focus on her actual message instead of pushing back on a very small piece of her point.

But her actual message is that 'profiteering off misogyny must end', and it's hard to see how anyone is profiteering off misogyny in the games industry.

Like, the point needs to be elaborated on so I can tell if I agree with it, you know?

 

[EvilKatarn]

Mostly RPG anime games?

I'm sure she's concerned about games that sell 5000 copies.

 

[ZeroGravity]

"games that maim and dump women for sport".

I can't think of any game that does this..

Same, no mainstream game anyway, that at least also doesn't give the same opportunity to do the same to men. But a lot of these people think virtual women should be untouchable, so it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

Actress that was mildly popular in random 90's movies.

Her name is bigger than that. Let's not sit here and act like her relevance is nothing. Her name alone, carries weight, especially in the south of USA.

 

[Glix]

Even though some of her comments seem a little misguided, the more attention GG stuff gets, the better, so I am all for this.

 

[Hades Hotgun]

"games that maim and dump women for sport".

I can't think of any game that does this..

The Tomb Raider reboot is pretty infamous for the many creepy, moaning, death scenes of Lara Croft.

 

[Linkura]

But her actual message is that 'profiteering off misogyny must end', and it's hard to see how anyone is profiteering off misogyny.

Like, the point needs to be elaborated on so I can tell if I agree with it, you know?

Lots of games with scantily-clad women, particularly in advertisements and on boxes that are made to sell games. Don't see a whole lot with scantily-clad men.

 

[Afrodium]

So is everyone going to get hung up on the "maim and dump" comment so that we don't have to discuss the prevalence of misogyny in video games and video game consumers?

 

[BumblebeeCody]

Well Tomb Raider (2013) had some really gruesome death scenes and went out of their way to hurt Lara. In the very beginning of the game she gets punched in the face and then has a large nail stabbed in her gut. I'm sure that the developers had no ill intent but I know it bothered people.

But what is the issue exactly? That Lara Croft has suffered gruesome deaths in the same way you would find in an RE game?

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

But her actual message is that 'profiteering off misogyny must end', and it's hard to see how anyone is profiteering off misogyny.

Like, the point needs to be elaborated on so I can tell if I agree with it, you know?

That and people that don't play games will think that there are tons of games that literally give you a "high score" for specifically attacking women. The exaggeration is completely unnecessary, which leads me to believe that she doesn't really know what she's talking about.

I agree the games industry has a ton of shit they need to fix with the way they treat women, minorities, etc, especially with their hiring practices, but that specific line helps no one.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I'm sure she's concerned about games that sell 5000 copies.

Yeah if she's a non-gamer she may not even know about anime games existence. I bet she's thinking more along the lines of a mainstream game like "grand theft auto" where in sandbox mode you can pick up women, have sex with them, and then murder them on your own free will.

 

[Ralemont]

I can, and there are many games that while not directly doing this, portray women very problematically.

However, I think it best to focus on her actual message instead of pushing back on a very small piece of her point.

Seems closer to being the center of her point than "a small piece."

 

[Harlequin]

Feels like a bit of an unfair generalisation but I suppose that's somewhat understandable if you're upset because you've been the target of online harassment. But yeah, the majority of the games industry definitely has its work cut out for it in terms of diversity, representation of women, minorities and gender roles (though the majority of games certainly do not feature "maiming and dumping women for sport" or at the very least not women specifically). However, I'd argue that it's somewhat naive to expect that kind of change to happen overnight. It's a gradual process that's already started and it's going to take a while for the industry to get to a good place in regards to these issues. I mean, most other forms of entertainment media aren't really in a good place yet, either (though most of them are certainly farther along than video games when it comes to these issues).

 

[Griss]

Lots of games with scantily-clad women, particularly in advertisements and on boxes that are made to sell games. Don't see a whole lot with scantily-clad men.

I thought she was talking about violence against women?

And there's nothing misogynistic about selling games to men based on sex appeal. There's nothing inherently misogynistic about having scantily clad women in your game.

Yeah if she's a non-gamer she may not even know about anime games existence. I bet she's thinking more along the lines of a mainstream game like "grand theft auto" where in sandbox mode you can pick up women, have sex with them, and then murder them on your own free will.

GTA is just about the one game where I think her point holds water, due to what you mentioned but more specifically due to the missions involving Trevor's cousin in GTA V, which were blatantly and intentionally sexist and dark, and ended with the murder of an independent but overbearing career woman by the psychopathic player character.

 

[Team Filler]

I'm 100% behind her general thrust of argument despite some of details being open for nitpicks. I'm sure if the appropriate pressures were being used then publishers would change, but I'm pessimistic about that happening anytime soon considering so many game consumers themselves don't seem to have problems with these kinds of offputting behaviors.

 

[Obliterator]

GG was indeed some total bull shit.

That said I'm not really on board with the rest of her point here. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense or really apply to the environment of current Western games

 

[Kthulhu]

"games that maim and dump women for sport".

I can't think of any game that does this..

Is she one of those people who think GTA is encouraging misogyny because you can murder prostitutes?

Edit: I do agree with the point we should have more prominent female protagonists, but I feel the industry is doing better in this regard than it was a few years ago.

 

[SolidSnakex]

So is everyone going to get hung up on the "maim and dump" comment so that we don't have to discuss the prevalence of misogyny in video games and video game consumers?

People are discussing her message and that's part of it.

 

[The Hermit]

The Tomb Raider reboot is pretty infamous for the many creepy, moaning, death scenes of Lara Croft.

Those felt really off actually

That Conan review was absurd

 

[Mushroomer25]

I can, and there are many games that while not directly doing this, portray women very problematically.

However, I think it best to focus on her actual message instead of pushing back on a very small piece of her point.

I think he arguement is somewhat weakened for not bringing up specific case examples, as it is an accusation of hypocrisy. It turns the debate into something very broad, painting an entire industry with a single brush.

There's an undeniable conflict between what game publishers say in PR about gender representation, and the reality of the products. But tackling it is going to require a more nuanced touch than that.

 

[Aizo]

The point is that things haven't gotten much better in the game industry and community, despite everyone disapproving GamerGate. I wonder if she is aware of Dead or Alive Xtreme.

 

[Shanlei91]

But what is the issue exactly? That Lara Croft has suffered gruesome deaths in the same way you would find in an RE game?

It's weird seeing that be used as an example. I thought people liked the Lara Croft games for prominently featuring a strong female protagonist. Is it also hated because the AI injuring the female protagonist makes people uncomfortable?

 

[Boke1879]

A few of her phrases can come off as harsh but overall I see her message.

I wonder who she talked to privately though? I wouldn't be shocked if privately a lot of people in this industry handwaved the issues.


That said I wonder what the industry could publicly do? At the very least it seems the industry tries to call out this shit and is making efforts to be more inclusive and show that they are.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Damn that sounds harsh. I haven't been following gamergate but what are some examples of games that do this? Mostly RPG anime games?

Oh yeah? You don't think it might be GTA or GoW? Something a little more high profile?

 

[Rhaknar]

The Tomb Raider reboot is pretty infamous for the many creepy, moaning, death scenes of Lara Croft.

so its ok if its Leon in RE4 for example but not if its Lara?

I assume she meant GTA games because it was so entirely vague, and her message is on point, but the wording is poor, probably for a lack of knowledge on the subject.

 

[JusDoIt]

She's right.

 

[Ralemont]

So is everyone going to get hung up on the "maim and dump" comment so that we don't have to discuss the prevalence of misogyny in video games and video game consumers?

That is discussing the prevalence of misogyny in video games.

 

[perfectchaos007]

Lots of games with scantily-clad women, particularly in advertisements and on boxes that are made to sell games. Don't see a whole lot with scantily-clad men.

The free market has to demand that before it happens. Right now, the gaming market is still primarily men so most games will be catered to that audience. Can't blame developers for doing what they feel ( and ultimately will ) sell more copies of their game.

 

[Back-In-Black]

Who is Ashley Judge?

This.

"You’re still making billions of dollars off games that maim and dump women for sport.”

we talking guro stuff or what

And, this. Like, I want to agree but can I get some examples?