Aaaand this is absolutely why i ain't taking part in this thread like i have for past ones. Too many people don't engage with, or don't get at all, the most basic, basic shit. Thanks for laying it out so clearly.
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Kojima: Overly sexualized women in DS will be given a deep background story"
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
Aaaand this is absolutely why i ain't taking part in this thread like i have for past ones. Too many people don't engage with, or don't get at all, the most basic, basic shit. Thanks for laying it out so clearly.
I don't know about others, but for me, criticism is an activity for it's own sake. It's a form of expression for the individual. "This is how I think, feel, and view things." And yes, you do hope that expression has some impact on others, but if the goal was to actually enact change, there are more effective ways of doing that. I'd have a better chance of buying shares in whatever companies my favorite franchises are and find a way to influence the creators through that than bitching about it on a message board a japanese speaking person will probably never see.
Silphonica
Banned
well noone would admit to it when worded like that, its not a new concept, nor is it something i think would actually ever be achieved. It just operates under a new mask now.
What on earth? When are female genitals ever shown with any definition? You never even see camel toes in games, let alone labia. (That one legendary GAF thread aside.)
Breasts are secondary sexual characteristics. They are not genitals. A muscular exposed male chest serves largely the same purpose as exposed cleavage when it comes to attractive design.
You can see cleavage walking down the street all day. Our society is totally cool with that. Showing the male 'package' loosely covered with cloth is a totally different kettle of fish and you must know that.
The whole 'cleavage for women = bulge for men' argument is bizarre.
Basketball
Member
Yeah right thanks for pulling a wiki though lol
The game was unfinished that was like 95% of the problem with mgs5.
StarskySilverz
Member
But that is another side of the argument: People who would rather let Kojima do whatever the hell he wants. And that super important wikipedia paragraph noted how a large amount reviews and critics really hated Quiet but that clamor was nonexistent when it was time to review the game: It has a 95 on metacritic and is the best selling Metal Gear game. Consumers are proving that they are not really hurt by character designs whether its Quiet or Raiden running around naked. Kojima keeps raking in money by doing what he wants and he will not change unless he's harassed enough online or until his numbers drop.
eyeball_kid
Member
Yeah I mean, I don't think it's bad that she was flirting with Big Boss; they were attracted to each other, that was part of the story. But some of her specific behaviors seemed more designed to titillate the player than to serve a progression of their relationship, I'll agree.
WiiredShawn
Member
I mean
We get it, Kojima
You like breasts
Just say that
We get it, Kojima
You like breasts
Just say that
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The only people waging a battle against the sexuality of women are people defending shit like Quiet, as in characters who aren't treated like characters but more like objects, if she was treated like a character then we might have had discussions about her actual sexuality.
Stop confusing sexualization with sexuality.
Except Quiet has a meaningful tactical application in gameplay. But if you then at all want to engage with that, you're stuck with this shitty embarrassing wank material loosely disguised as a character, and everything around her dumbass backstory only further cements how she's nothing more than shitty embarrassing wank material.
Audioboxer
Member
True, but she's also a half plant or some shit. Point is fantasy and fiction often suspends belief. Games like MGS aren't kids educational CDs for learning about the birds and bees.
This is one element of adult entertainment which is subjective. Whether you want to subject yourself to it. Whether it's sexual content, violence, swearing or whatever else may cause some to feel at unease.
To be an actor whether mo-cap, voice or the whole lot has you understand this. Hence why people can act in many roles that portray subjectively or even objectively awful things.
Again it's not your criticism of Kojima I'm debating you on, but the lengths at which you've brought up in the topic.
Sony are pretty liberal with letting devs do whatever they want. They also ain't going to piss off a money maker like Kojima as he's giving them some form of exclusivity.
Yabberwocky
Member
Don't strain yourself too much, Kojima, considering what a great job you did with Quiet! I am still in awe.
Blergh. A deep background story doesn't magically compensate, excuse, or justify shitty design, either.
Blergh. A deep background story doesn't magically compensate, excuse, or justify shitty design, either.
Chuck Norris
Banned
It's kind of odd that he's gone from powerful, barely sexualised women like the Boss, Olga and Sniper Wolf to tentacle women and sexy mutes
You could say this about many things. Why should developers care about reaching 60 fps? Why should developers care about creating convincing worlds? Why should developers care about competitive depth? These things generally don't affect sales. But that shouldn't stop people from complaining that a great game is limited to 60fps, or that a fun RPG doesn't bother explaining how people can even eat. Even the best games have flaws, and the idea that developers should only care about the flaws that affect sales does a disservice to the medium.
Not to mention this thread isn't a message to the devs, it's a topic on a video game discussion site. Video game discussion includes talking about things that you don't like in video games, and "don't buy it" is a worthless response. If I complain about Bloodborne's framerate and frame pacing, "don't buy it" is a nonsequitor.
It's called progress!
Yup. As I said before, I actually largely enjoy how sexuality is handled in Saint's Row and that is very gratuitous. Kojima is just bad at writing sexualized women full stop.
We will find out in the game that the woman with the gigantic boobs had plastic surgery after a horrible event 10 years ago when her plane crashed and she couldn't save her kids from drowning because her boobs weren't big enough to be used as flotation devices. Ever since then, she has vowed to never let anyone drown again because of her small boobs.
GillianSeed79
Member
Having a character with big boobs isn't inherently bad. Having a character with big boobs whose sole reason for existing in a game is to be a sexualized object is. And, no, creating a backstory that boobs help them float really well or they are like a plant doesn't count as a deep backstory. Give them big boobs but don't let that be the focus of their character. Its' not rocket science.
Yeah, it's impossible to discuss feminism/social issues without people getting defensive or dismissive :/
Danis Saur
Member
How about you just don't, Kojima.
I want more of a Maryl from MGS1 and not a Quiet from MGSV....
I want more of a Maryl from MGS1 and not a Quiet from MGSV....
more yes men, more cult of personality
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
The impact being that Kojima stops including wankbait waifus in his games.
You can disagree that just because a creator wants to include something that it should be included, but the "let the creator do what he/she wants" is a relevant argument.
This is also a game that tries to shock you with a 14 year old blowing up because of a fucking bomb in her vagina.
A dumb joke in a game 20 years ago doesn't excuse the gross-ass shit in the game from 2 years ago. That's not how progress works.
StarskySilverz
Member
Boycotting can work. I'm a halo fan and when Halo 4 introduced a plethora of noncompetitive and bizarre design decisions I didn't join in, there is no doubt that the online population of Halo 4 encouraged the developers to completely change their approach for Halo 5. I agree with criticism of Kojima but beware of believing you can convince enough people to think the same way and make him budge.
Crazy Diamond
Member
Emma Stone.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
I mean technically he gave a "reason" why the girls in mgs4 were the way they were, and the photosynthesizing thing in mgs5. Its just that it feels like he designed the characters first, and the backstory second.
John Kowalski
Banned
MGS has Meryl in panties and MGS2 had posters of women in bikinis spread over Tanker and Big Shell. None of his games are free of sexually objectified women. His older games, like Snatcher and Policenauts, have similar representations of women. His games all have these things.
Portugeezer
Gold Member
You would be mistaken.
Not exactly. First off, we do actually have some instances where women's sexual parts are defined. But when even when their not, I count breasts as sexually characterized organs or however you want to define the term, because they are made to sexually incite, not biologically reproduce in the game their featured in. Their definition, like having cloths that barely fit them or offer cleavage, is designed to draw attention to them. That's what Kaz is missing.
Second, I'm not sure what the point of bringing in real life here is because it's not like double standards of beauty stop at fiction. The reason you see women with more sexualized attire in real life is because women are culturally more associated with beauty and sexuality while men are not in real life as well as our fiction, both of which influence each other in a feedback loop. So, yes, you will see more sexualized outfits on women because they are culturally more encouraged to wear more sexualized outfits. The only real difference is that they have the choice to do so in real life while fictional characters can't make a choice for themselves.
To bring back the argument to the original point is: If you want men to be as sexualized as women (because that's what the person who was giving the speedo option in Motherbase was implying), it needs to go further than merely wearing the speedo. It needs to be given emphasis, and defintion, and have attention drawn to it the same way Quiet thrusts her ass in your face. That's what would make things 'equal', or close to it.
You must really hate Kojima then, he's done some real damage against sex positivism and strong portrayals of sexuality. When over half the women in your games are just objects and nothing else it does no good for sexuality. It makes everything prescriptive.
Silphonica
Banned
You have your wires crossed my friend. Sexualisation is a branch of sexuality, and my stance is that of artistic freedom, regardless of my own opinion. Vs your stance of artistic stifling.
I find that for a resolution to an issue, all voices must be heard. Rather than one side telling the other side how wrong they are all the time.
Bingo
Crazy Diamond
Member
Yeah. Sony has done everything to give him what he needs and stay out of his way. People act like Kojima just came off the street and made Quiet and that's it.
MGS has always had sexualization. For both men and women.
The problem is that in the cases of MGS4 and 5, the sexualization detracted from the characters. There's a reason there are more complaints about Quiet than Eva.
StarskySilverz
Member
Johnny pooping in a barrel was literally in the last mainline game. And what may shock some may just be a cool moment for others, not everyone takes video games so seriously (especially Metal Gear) and you cannot blame them for not thinking the same way you do or claim they're wrong.
petethepanda
Member
buddy
stahp
Like, I'd love for this to actually be the case, but it's hard to give the benefit of the doubt when MGS5 was just as bad as 4 in that regard, if not worse.
stahp
Like, I'd love for this to actually be the case, but it's hard to give the benefit of the doubt when MGS5 was just as bad as 4 in that regard, if not worse.
John Kowalski
Banned
It always detracted from all the characters that were sexually objectified.
If MGS3 were released to the public today, we would also be discussing her representation. There is a lot more space to have these conversations today than there was back then, there's a lot more vocabulary and social awareness.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Some creators see tired, worn-out tropes as a challenge: how can I justify this trope?
Kojima may or may not be shitty at it, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the backstory isn't important.
It kind of goes hand in hand with deconstruction, where a trope is used to critique that trope.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
At this point if one of my students ever says i'm stifling their creativity during a critique i'll fail them on the spot because holy shit am I tired of hearing that shit argument from people on GAF.
Here's the thing, nothing Quiet ever does is an expression of her sexuality, she never is doing anything that has to do with sex, except for when she's about to be raped. Artistic freedom is fine, BUT SO IS CRITIQUE.
As a reminder Kojima unironically stated that Quiet was written to be the antithesis of sexualized women in gaming. So yes, he's absolutely shit when it comes to handling these things.
meltingparappa
Member
Sure, but that is in no way an inherently invalid approach to the creative process, particularly a collaborative one.
Basketball
Member
I love that in games now
fictional females have to be over analyzed
They have to look right (can't be too sexy,breast/ass size etc or else male gaze)
Sound right (white woman playing Nadine)
Behave right
Don't show too much emotion (crying zelda)
Dress right (what a midriff...gross)
Everything has to be practical ... HIGH HEELS ... BOOB PLATE/WINDOW
fantasy for the sake of fantasy is such a foreign concept
everything needs an explanation
they can't just be
not really exclusive to women characters as well but just the over-analyzation of AAA games
fictional females have to be over analyzed
They have to look right (can't be too sexy,breast/ass size etc or else male gaze)
Sound right (white woman playing Nadine)
Behave right
Don't show too much emotion (crying zelda)
Dress right (what a midriff...gross)
Everything has to be practical ... HIGH HEELS ... BOOB PLATE/WINDOW
fantasy for the sake of fantasy is such a foreign concept
everything needs an explanation
they can't just be
not really exclusive to women characters as well but just the over-analyzation of AAA games
Pinko Marx
Banned
Inferno313
Banned
me waiting for japanese game designers to discover feminism
Why would we not critique the characters in games? We do it in movies, and TV, and books and every other type of media? Why would games be exempt?
Battlechili
Banned
Can't he just admit he likes making characters look sexy and attractive? There's nothing wrong with that! That's a simple yet perfectly fine reason for it. In fact, I'd even say he doesn't need a reason for it at all and could just put in whatever he wants, and people who like that sort of thing (myself included), would be fine with it.
But with this, he's just setting himself up for Quiet 2.0. Making silly excuses that'll make people more closely look at the character which will almost inevitably result in this backfiring against him.
But with this, he's just setting himself up for Quiet 2.0. Making silly excuses that'll make people more closely look at the character which will almost inevitably result in this backfiring against him.
Steve Youngblood
Member
To me, there's basically two purposes to these types of discussions. The first in my mind is trying to ascertain whether prevalence of things like sexualization hinders core gaming's ability to be a big tent hobby. It's sort of a "chicken or the egg" problem where I think it's important to try and get to the bottom of whether or not male gamers are targeted as the main audience because they just naturally are the audience for these kinds of games, or if it's because these kinds of games pander to them.
Two -- and I'll admit freely that this is entirely subjective -- I personally feel like it's important to push back against the assumed idea that "this is what dudes want!!!" I can't speak for everyone, but when it seems like hot, sexy female characters are thrown in there because "sex sells," I feel compelled to push back against that. Mind you, publishers don't have to defer to me. If they've got data that for every one Steve Youngblood out there that dislikes Quiet's design there's 5 other guys out there that love it, then c'est la vie. They don't have to change their vision on my account. But the older I get, the more embarrassing this stuff becomes to me. Maybe it's just because I'm a boring, old family man now. But it just strikes me as juvenile when it feels like the impetus behind decisions is "if our audience goes five minutes without getting an erection, we're not doing our jobs right."
But having said that, I do want to be careful not to try and name and shame people who like this content. One of Kojima's motivating reasons for Quiet's design was to see sexy cosplay. And I'm sure there are adult women out there who are more than eager to cosplay as Quiet of their own free will. I don't want to make those people feel guilty as though they are contributing to the subjugation of women all over the world for simply not being offended at Quiet's design. You like it? You think it's sexy? Fair enough. But if you are asking my opinion? Kill it. Kill it with fire.
And I also realize that we are on kind of tenuous ground about moral responsibility with regards to sexualization. I get points that people make in terms of actions having unintended consequences and the importance of industry leaders to be conscience of how they are serving as custodians for future generations. But at the same time, I also sort of understand why it might seem silly to expect someone to adhere to a moral highground in regards to constantly evolving viewpoints about social responsibility in some stupid game where our hero(es) square(s) off against bipedal tanks with nuclear first strike capabilities and vampires and fat guys on rollers skates and cyborg ninjas.