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Kojima: Overly sexualized women in DS will be given a deep background story"
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
By this logic there should be no critical discussion of anything on GAF.
If you open any thread about MGSV here there is plenty of conversation about what the game succeeds and fails at in regards to storytelling and its open world design and gameplay.
So why is it that when Quiet comes into the conversation suddenly discussion is off-limits?
Audioboxer
Member
Not sure working conditions is a good example here given Kojima actually seems to treat his staff well and its Konami that was the little shit. Lots of Kojimas team came with him.
Also bad for the industry is debatable given the amount of money he gets pumped into the industry via his games.
Bad for women is what is debatable. Some will say yes with legitimate reasons, others will say no with legimate reasons. Very few will be swayed to either side and Kojima for better or worse seems to very rarely listen to any feedback.
Bloodporne
Member
Any and all arguments about this seem quite futile when you consider you're dealing with someone who got 'more backstory I guess?' out of people going dude, what's up with the absurdly sleazy depiction of your latest game's main female character.
I personally don't care what he does regarding his characters, I find his bizarre attempts at justifying them more offensive actually.
I personally don't care what he does regarding his characters, I find his bizarre attempts at justifying them more offensive actually.
NoctisVsStar
Member
was this necessary ?
I don't think it is a coincidence that fighting games tend to lean towards more sexualized outfits for DLC.
Weltall Zero
Member
My argument is that those are two extremelly disconnected arguments. You are welcome to think and argue that Kojima is free to make a pointless sexualized female character, but grounding that in the fact that he made actually decent characters twelve years and four games ago, and so he's due some kind of "feminist currency", is the epitome of flimsy. It doesn't add anything to your argument at all.
Also the fact that games take a lot to make would be a point if he had made one game in those twelve years, but there are four. Four is enough to draw a pattern, slow development or not.
They are allowed to exist. They clearly do. We aren't arguing whether or not it should be legal. We are basically discussing that it overall isn't a good design choice, is bad for the industry, is bad for women, and that Kojima has had a problem in this regard for a while now.
You said it yourself, if Quiet was less sexualized you would not even care. So what are you arguing about? What about Quiet's design screams 'creative freedom', that a less objectified character couldn't get away with?
he's posted longer on neogaf, he's an important and superior person.
JayRobertson
Banned
I love going to gaf to see my favorite idiots claim moral superiority over nothing but their assumptions of ones integrity and intentions.
LOL, like making a GAF account is the first thing you're supposed to do when getting into games.
cripterion
Member
Thisgonnabegood.gif
StarskySilverz
Member
But why in the world would Kojima stop what he's doing a design a character he doesn't want to if the majority of people could not care less?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
She's the main female character in the game and her name ffs is QUIET. This is a game about serious themes like child soldiers in Africa, nukes, mercenaries, etc. how are you not seeing the issue?
Angry Fork
Member
I was only talking about the characters of that period. The person I was responding to said that Eva or Meryl for example were sexualized, I was trying to point out that they weren't *just* sexualized, they had other attributes that made people like them. I wasn't trying to say that because Kojima created the boss that means he gets to make Quiet without criticism, that definitely would be lazy. Sorry if it seemed that way.
ScientificPizza
Banned
FalsettoVibe
Member
LOL.....she actually arches her back and looks back when she turns around. In real like this means sex.
1) Pay attention. I didn't say Kojima's working conditions are bad, I used the comparison to show that 'how something sells' isn't a could indicator whether or not we should complain.
2) Bad for the industry is debatable. I'm not talking about money here, I'm talking about legitimacy. Quiet, as a character, is embarrassing. It's embarrassing when trying to argue that gaming is a legitimate form of media right up there with television and movies, it's embarrassing when trying to treat gaming as an art form, it's embarrassing when arguing that games aren't just for kids; it's just embarrassing. That isn't good for the industry.
3) Objectifying women in any media isn't good for women, it's bad. That isn't debatable.
cpp_is_king
Member
seems like "deep backstory" might be a euphemism for "tight ass"?
Okay first of all being a junior on NeoGAF doesn't mean you don't know anything about games or the industry. That's just a bad jab at him currently being a new member to the forum.
That's not how it works. Games that sell like shit are either because the game is bad, franchise is niche, have anti-consumer practices like buttload of DLC, etc. Those who don't buy games because of a character weren't going to buy the game for the game anyway.
KonradLaw
Member
The design itself? I mean...that was the point of Quiet, to have almost naked lady run around on the battlefield. Her entire point was just that. Everything else was created afterwards as a pretty ineffective attempt at rationalizing her presence.
Messofanego
Banned
Who are your "favorite idiots"?
Crazy Diamond
Member
Gotta make sure people who haven't posted for as long as you have on a gaming forum know they are beneath you!
Fine, here's my thoughts on Quiet. She's an absolutely terrible character. She's on part with the Beauty and the Beast group from MGS4. Not having her talk is whatever, it fit her character although her motives were questionable in the end.
Every time I was in that chopper looking through my menus, I was really annoyed that Quiet was always shoving her butt and boobs in my face. Her attempted rape/death scene could have been okay if her shirt wasn't popping open and zooming in on her chest while this is happening. Same for the torture scene.
Her explanation for why she needs to be almost naked makes no sense either. The End has the literally exact same thing going on with him. He wears a full ghillie suit, and he can breath just fine. He couldn't shoot grenades out of the air though, so I'll give her that.
Her being in love with Venom made no real sense either. I get that they wanted some kind of love interest for the game, but her love seemed to come out of nowhere considering Venom said like maybe 2 lines total to her.
Its obvious Kojima just wanted her to be a fanservice character. And while that's kind of annoying, I would not have minded nearly as much if he wasn't such a liar about it.
Saying we'll be ashamed of our words when we hear her backstory, which makes no sense.
In conclusion, D-Dog is the best companion.
StarskySilverz
Member
Because its a video game made by a man who also designed Johnny: a soldier with irritable bowel syndrome. Relax.
Audioboxer
Member
Legitimacy and objectification of fictional characters is in the eye of the beholder though. I say that as someone who thinks Quiet is trash, but I'm a little disappointed you're approaching this as "no debate, I'm right, end of". For example Kojima is a net gain to our industry, that's just a fact. That doesn't mean he cannot be critised but that I think some of your remarks are verging into the territory of hyperbole. Hence why I was a bit dumbfounded as to why you were going on about Nike and sweatshops.
Weltall Zero
Member
Ah, OK, my bad, I misunderstood. It's just that some of these characters were indeed amazing (The Boss is probably one of my favorite characters ever) so it's all the more puzzling and sad that he's devolved into stuff like Quiet. :/
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
big boobs, big story
i'm not really sensitive towards this stuff, but it got kind of dumb in MGSV at times.
i'm not really sensitive towards this stuff, but it got kind of dumb in MGSV at times.
TheKastorian
Member
This.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Here's the thing, the story of MGSV has very little comedy. Every cutscene is for the most part serious in nature. There's very little in the way of juvenile humor m, so much so, that the gameplay had less serious elements added to alleviate this. "It's video games." Is a self defeating argument that has absolutely no place in a critical discussion. People ITT wish to discuss these things genuinely and their implication. If you don't, then leave, don't sit here and try to stifle discussion with "it's video games@
I don't really see any examples of it demonstrably increasing sales outside seriously niche franchises.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Personally, I think it can be worthwhile for a writer to look at a weird trope that is constantly handwaved and explore situations in which that trope makes sense.
That's not to say that Kojima does a good job of this, but I disagree with those who are saying "if you're going to sexualize characters, just admit it and don't try to explain it".
That's not to say that Kojima does a good job of this, but I disagree with those who are saying "if you're going to sexualize characters, just admit it and don't try to explain it".
dragonfart28
Banned
The praise this guy gets is unwarranted.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
In this day and age it does the opposite.
MegaSackman
Member
Here's an idea: If you don't sexualize your female characters, you don't have to explain anything. 
StarskySilverz
Member
You attach balloons to soldiers backs and your horse can literally make vehicles slip in its feces.
Wich don't even sell that well to begin with.
Not this time, Kojima... just outright admit if you're gonna sexualise the characters... don't hide behind a shield of white armour.
Ugh... every pic, gif and video of Quiet makes me not wanna go back to MGSV. Just fucking terrible.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Did you literally not just read what j just said in that post?
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Fire Emblem went from circling the drain to explosive, wide-reaching popularity by going full waifu game.
So she's a poorly designed character. So the entire reason for her existing is that she is a sexual object, and they scrapped together a backstory however they could. So why are people arguing this isn't the case? Wouldn't female characters benefit more if he, say, wrote them first instead of objectifying them?
Because there is outcry? Because it was one of the most largely criticized parts of his game? Because not every single person is some Kojima-zombie ready to follow him into whatever place he wants to go, if it means objectifying women?
Not really? You are either treated like a person or treated like an object. As stated above, Quiets entire existence is basically so he can have a half naked woman on the battlefield. She is basically a token, a poster, an object. She is far less of a 'person' than most of the male characters.
StarskySilverz
Member
Yes I did, and my point still stands. Kojima wanted to have both serious and fun elements in his games. The man and his team do what they want to do and having Quiet wearing a bikini didn't throw off the narrative anymore than the gameplay was.
Angry Fork
Member
I think it's totally fine to call Quiet a bad character, but I think that's an extension of the lazy story because MGS5 has little story/characters compared to previous games, not because Kojima is out to throw women under the bus.
But even if this wasn't the case I think it's fine for movies, tv shows, games etc. to have random sexualized men or women for no reason other than sexual desire. This can be considered low brow entertainment but I think it has a right to exist nonetheless without it being considered an evil of society. It's just a guilty pleasure like enjoying transformers movies or something.
There's plenty of "high art" that has legitimate female characters and will continue to do so. Maybe this isn't necessarily the case in games right now, but for me personally I don't care about games becoming high art, that's not what I look for in them, and the games that try to do this tend to be the most boring and up their own ass to me. There's some exceptions like Bioshock, Uncharted etc. but these games have strong female characters anyway.
Basically if a game has a great story with great characters, it's likely going to have strong non-sexualized female characters as well. Demanding/expecting this out of something as consistently wacky and weird as MGS is misguided imo. Not every game has to be the flame bearer for progressive values, let some games be weird dumb shit.
But even if this wasn't the case I think it's fine for movies, tv shows, games etc. to have random sexualized men or women for no reason other than sexual desire. This can be considered low brow entertainment but I think it has a right to exist nonetheless without it being considered an evil of society. It's just a guilty pleasure like enjoying transformers movies or something.
There's plenty of "high art" that has legitimate female characters and will continue to do so. Maybe this isn't necessarily the case in games right now, but for me personally I don't care about games becoming high art, that's not what I look for in them, and the games that try to do this tend to be the most boring and up their own ass to me. There's some exceptions like Bioshock, Uncharted etc. but these games have strong female characters anyway.
Basically if a game has a great story with great characters, it's likely going to have strong non-sexualized female characters as well. Demanding/expecting this out of something as consistently wacky and weird as MGS is misguided imo. Not every game has to be the flame bearer for progressive values, let some games be weird dumb shit.
RedAssedApe
Banned
so he's admitting quiet was a mistake?...guess not
BibiMaghoo
Member
MGS5 is the first and only MG game I have not played, and it was for that very reason. I am not alone in this either. His previous games have all had cheeky nods to this shit, many of them entirely optional. That was not the case here at all, and the severity of it far greater.
Do not be so quick to decide what makes another person not buy a game. If I wanted a weird soft porno, I would watch one, not spend £50 on a stealth game.
Did it really become more popular because of waifus? or because of the tumblr "shipping" fandom? or because awakening was more accessible? Nobody knows