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[SolidSnakex]

I dont know

The story in MGS2 was pretty prescient. Even now we argue in our little gated community, letting whatever truths that are convenient leak in..

Now it's looked back on fondly. But at the time it was shredded. Whether it be due to the plot or because you couldn't play as Snake throughout the whole game. It's one of those games where its image has absolutely improved over time. And that once "crazy" speech by the AI doesn't seem so crazy anymore.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Fine, here's my thoughts on Quiet. She's an absolutely terrible character. She's on part with the Beauty and the Beast group from MGS4. Not having her talk is whatever, it fit her character although her motives were questionable in the end.

Every time I was in that chopper looking through my menus, I was really annoyed that Quiet was always shoving her butt and boobs in my face. Her attempted rape/death scene could have been okay if her shirt wasn't popping open and zooming in on her chest while this is happening. Same for the torture scene.

Her explanation for why she needs to be almost naked makes no sense either. The End has the literally exact same thing going on with him. He wears a full ghillie suit, and he can breath just fine. He couldn't shoot grenades out of the air though, so I'll give her that.

Her being in love with Venom made no real sense either. I get that they wanted some kind of love interest for the game, but her love seemed to come out of nowhere considering Venom said like maybe 2 lines total to her.

Its obvious Kojima just wanted her to be a fanservice character. And while that's kind of annoying, I would not have minded nearly as much if he wasn't such a liar about it.
Saying we'll be ashamed of our words when we hear her backstory, which makes no sense.

In conclusion, D-Dog is the best companion.

Thanks a lot for sharing this. In particular it's interesting to confirm how badly Kojima's attempt at justification (pre-emptively and based on a lot of nothing, to boot) seems to have damaged his credibility regarding this topic as much it not more than Quiet's portrayal herself.

I love going to gaf to see my favorite idiots claim moral superiority over nothing but their assumptions of ones integrity and intentions.

I on the other hand love going to GAF and seeing people like you getting out of the woodwork in threads like this and getting themselves banned.

 

[Kindekuma]

Did it really become more popular because of waifus? or because of the tumblr "shipping" fandom? or because awakening was more accessible? Nobody knows

Yes.

Spoiler

In my eyes it was all three.

 

[StarskySilverz]

Because there is outcry? Because it was one of the most largely criticized parts of his game? Because not every single person is some Kojima-zombie ready to follow him into whatever place he wants to go, if it means objectifying women?

The biggest criticism of MGSV was that it wasn't finished, the majority of players could not care less how Kojima dresses his characters. I would play Death Stranding the whole way through even if Norman Reedus wears boxer shorts the entire time.

 

[Toxi]

Basically if a game has a great story with great characters, it's likely going to have strong non-sexualized female characters as well. Expecting this out of something as consistently wacky and weird as MGS is misguided imo. Not every game has to be the flame bearer for progressive values, let some games be weird dumb shit.

Metal Gear Solid has had great female characters with varying degrees of sexualization though.

We shouldn't be holding it to the same standards as Transformers movies. One, because the Transformers movies suck. Two, because the series has shown that it can do better.

 

[Mr. RHC]

Come on Kojima you don't need to justify yourself. You're a fucking God!

https://www.yotube.com/watch?v=J8m3oKhBiaw

 

[Not]

I just want to see some jacked men with speedo bulges with no backstory whatsoever, is that too much to ask Kojima

 

[Imperfected]

That's convenient, as women with deep background stories are my fetish.

 

[RM8]

Did it really become more popular because of waifus? or because of the tumblr "shipping" fandom? or because awakening was more accessible? Nobody knows

Or because Awakening was actually marketed. Like seriously, I don't recall any push behind any previous FE game whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong, there's a new generation of fans who love the waifu stuff, but you don't see Record of Agarest War outselling Fire Emblem.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Did it really become more popular because of waifus? or because of the tumblr "shipping" fandom? or because awakening was more accessible? Nobody knows

All of the above, and shipping is incredibly similar to waifu/husbando stuff, if not outright identical.

The notion that pandering to a lucrative market has the net effect of hurting sales is absurd.

 

[shiftplusone]

I do like knowing ahead of time that we are going to have overly sexualized women with a kojima "deep" backstory


Not regularly sexualized, either. That shit is for chumps

 

[Kindekuma]

I just want to see some men with speedo bulges with no backstory whatsoever, is that too much to ask Kojima

MGSV also has swimsuits for Mother Base staff, so if you want speedos with no backstory to a recruit, there's your game.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Yes I did, and my point still stands. Kojima wanted to have both serious and fun elements in his games. The man and his team do what they want to do and having Quiet wearing a bikini didn't throw off the narrative anymore than the gameplay was.

The point is that the story is largely devoid of juvenile shit. EXCEPT for when it comes to women. There's no cutscene equivalent to the silly gameplay elements. And MGSV's narrative is shit, and so is Quiets involvement. Her storyline is absolutely garbage from the moment she speaks in the game. And a lot of that has to do with the attempts to justify her shit character design.

 

[Metal B]

Now it's looked back on fondly. But at the time it was shredded. Whether it be due to the plot or because you couldn't play as Snake throughout the whole game. It's one of those games where its image has absolutely improved over time. And that once "crazy" speech by the AI doesn't seem so crazy anymore.

MGS2 is still problematic. There are too many codex sequences, which really hurt the story and pacing. The overall idea is interesting, but the game doesn't really sell it. Also the level-design is really bland, since Big Shell is a really boring environment and very limited in possibilities.

 

[flkraven]

These types of discussions never get past the juvenile stage here on GAF. It basically devolves into people having to define terms like "objectification" and "male gaze" to another subsection of people unable to remove themselves from the childish mindset of 'video games fun', 'no censorship', 'I like boobies', etc etc.

For once I'd love to discuss the ways my opinions differ from someone like Crossing Eden's or how we have different lines in the sand, rather than having to spend 10 pages explaining Women's Studies 101 to people that clearly don't want to learn and just want to shut us up.

 

[RRockman]

Look, you are a Junior here ... so I am guessing you are new to the videogame industry.

VOTING WITH YOUR WALLET ONLY WORKS IF YOU WANT MORE OF THE SAME*

If you want less of something, what will happen is that the guys in suits will say "damn this game sold like crap. We need 3 Quiets next game"

*unless you are capcom than "i want more resident evil" will be interpreted as "I want a light gun shooter"

Why are you trying to start fights? How are we going to take you seriously when you are taking potshots at a user's fourm account age and an unrelated game?
If you must troll, can't it be done elsewhere?

 

[AtomskEater]

Dont like it ? Vote with your wallet . Let the creators create freely. It's either going to sell well because majority don't care how you feel , or it's going to sell poorly and he will have to fix it . Simple as that really. Crying about it and pushing your own agenda into people's work isn't really the way to do things . Lord bless you if you ever tell me how to do my job .

I feel like I need a bingo card.
"Vote with your wallet!" like that magically fixes things.
"Let creators do what they want!" like posts on a message board are a literal loaded gun held to Kojima's head, a finger on the trigger just waiting for him to tell the character designer to draw some titties.
"Stop crying!" as a counterpoint to what is, for the most part, a rational, civil discussion.

 

[eyeball_kid]

Honestly, Quiet's narrative, if you play to her last mission, was one of the more impactful stories I've experienced in games. You can feel what you want about her design (and there were some problematic things I'll agree, even though I didn't generally have a problem with her), but you can't say her character was only there for titillation.

I found the other parts of the interview more interesting, such as Kojima's suggestion that Deep Stranding might have "games within games".

 

[Metal B]

I feel like I need a bingo card.
"Vote with your wallet!" like that magically fixes things.
"Let creators do what they want!" like posts on a message board are a literal loaded gun held to Kojima's head, a finger on the trigger just waiting for him to tell the character designer to draw some titties.
"Stop crying!" as a counterpoint to what is, for the most part, a rational, civil discussion.

"But my X friend likes it." X can be mix of following words [ girl / boy / male / female / black / gay / etc. ]

Honestly, Quiet's narrative, if you play to her last mission, was one of the more impactful stories I've experienced in games. You can feel what you want about her design (and there were some problematic things I'll agree, even though I didn't generally have a problem with her), but you can't say her character was only there for titillation.

This is why everybody is criticizing it. Kojima could have a good female character, but her design and behavior turns some people off, and there is no reason, why it has to be this way.

 

[Veelk]

MGSV also has swimsuits for Mother Base staff, so if you want speedos with no backstory to a recruit, there's your game.

If we're going for the kind of sexualization that women are subjected to, we'd actually have to see some definition to the sexual organ, be able to make out the rough shape of it. It's okay if Kaz just happens to have a micropenis so it doesn't show up, there should be other guys who's packages are just barely contained by the thin piece of cloth.

Like so: NSFW: Edit: actually, I'd rather not risk a ban. Just google male speedo's, will you?

 

[flkraven]

The biggest criticism of MGSV was that it wasn't finished, the majority of players could not care less how Kojima dresses his characters. I would play Death Stranding the whole way through even if Norman Reedus wears boxer shorts the entire time.

On the official Wikipedia page there is literally a section titled "The Portrayal of Quiet"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid_V:_The_Phantom_Pain#Portrayal_of_Quiet

Get your head out of the sand dude. This was a big deal.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I don't really see any examples of it demonstrably increasing sales outside seriously niche franchises.

I dunno, maybe Overwatch? And they went out of their way to not do it lol.

 

[Toxi]

Now it's looked back on fondly. But at the time it was shredded. Whether it be due to the plot or because you couldn't play as Snake throughout the whole game. It's one of those games where its image has absolutely improved over time. And that once "crazy" speech by the AI doesn't seem so crazy anymore.

In 2002, the internet was already a big thing, and was already displaying the same trends we see today. The white supremacist website Stormfront launched in 1996 and is a blueprint for the right-wing echo chambers we see today.

 

[Euphor!a]

I feel like I need a bingo card.
"Vote with your wallet!" like that magically fixes things.
"Let creators do what they want!" like posts on a message board are a literal loaded gun held to Kojima's head, a finger on the trigger just waiting for him to tell the character designer to draw some titties.
"Stop crying!" as a counterpoint to what is, for the most part, a rational, civil discussion.

It's not magic, it's just how business works? No one is going to sell a product that no one wants.

 

[shaowebb]

Soooooo he'll make up elaborate backstories to justify overly sexualized character designs instead of not pushing character designs that are ridiculous?
Its still pandering no matter how big of a reason you make up for it dude. Treat female characters as people instead of objects. Lord knows a character who is mostly naked, that never speaks, named "Quiet" who is seen and not heard is NOT something you can ever make up a big enough excuse for. Especially when her backstory is bullshit considering a dude also has her "breath through the skin" thing goin on and yet he gets to wear a full set of clothes.

 

[ZSeba]

All of the above, and shipping is incredibly similar to waifu/husbando stuff, if not outright identical.

The notion that pandering to a lucrative market has the net effect of hurting sales is absurd.

Yeah, but my point is that otaku pandering is not necesarily a recipe for success either

 

[orochi91]

Fanservice can be tolerable if it's done creatively or with some timely humour.

Kojima should get pointers from Studio SHAFT; their work on the Monogatari franchise has been incredible, lol

 

[Sapiens]

I bet this guy has the game pre-ordered already:

Right guys?

 

[///PATRIOT]

They are allowed to exist. They clearly do. We aren't arguing whether or not it should be legal. We are basically discussing that it overall isn't a good design choice, is bad for the industry, is bad for women, and that Kojima has had a problem in this regard for a while now.

I understand if you don't like the character and her purpose but you don't get to say if his creativity decision is bad for industry or women, that's why we have ESRB Ratings.

 

[StarskySilverz]

On the official Wikipedia page there is literally a section titled "The Portrayal of Quiet"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid_V:_The_Phantom_Pain#Portrayal_of_Quiet

Get your head out of the sand dude. This was a big deal.

Well its on wikipedia, guess I'm wrong. I don't care either way. I'll continue to enjoy Kojimas games and find which characters I like by their stories and how they play rather than the clothes they wear. (Btw I liked Quiet's portrayal way better than Kaz's) And if that means that I'm a bad person for doing so then I'll just have to live with that.

 

[Euphor!a]

I dunno, maybe Overwatch? And they went out of their way to not do it lol.

Did they really? I feel like Mercy's Witch skin was the most sought after cosmetic in the game on GAF.

 

[EmSeta]

Not this time, Kojima... just outright admit if you're gonna sexualise the characters... don't hide behind a shield of white armour.

Uugh, so embarrassing...

 

[SolidSnakex]

Or because Awakening was actually marketed. Like seriously, I don't recall any push behind any previous FE game whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong, there's a new generation of fans who love the waifu stuff, but you don't see Record of Agarest War outselling Fire Emblem.

The series was always marketed in Japan, but its sales were declining since The Binding Blade. Entries dipped from TBB's high of 300k+ to as low as 100k. So, the series sales in general were just bad (at least as far as Nintendo was concerned). It's why Awakening was developed to be the final entry of the series. Then it came out and sold in its first week what recent entries (at the time) of the series had sold in their lifetime.

MGS2 is still problematic. There are too many codex sequences, which really hurt the story and pacing. The overall idea is interesting, but the game doesn't really sell it. Also the level-design is really bland, since Big Shell is a really boring environment and very limited in possibilities.

It certainly has its flaws and i'm in the boat that feels MGS3 really did everything better than MGS2, aside from framerate. But the difference between how it was received when it launched compared to where we are now is like night and day. It certainly always had a good amount of defenders, but the hate was extremely strong at one point. We now have articles being written about how the story was ahead of its time.

 

[Silphonica]

I really dont care.

I wish the battle against sexuality would end soon. You dont have to explain your actions, its your game, do what you want with it.

 

[Toxi]

It's not magic, it's just how business works? No one is going to sell a product that no one wants.

What if you like the game and want more like it?

"Vote with your wallet" is not a valid way to dismiss any complaint about a game.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

Yeah, but my point is that otaku pandering is not necesarily a recipe for success either

For sure, but CrossingEden made the claim that otaku pandering decreases sales.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Good god what drivel. "I need a story about a genetically altered super-soldier, but one that doesn't impose unrealistic body images on women." Just hang out in Outer Heaven, it's a freaking Benetton ad.

It's weird how that argument works out

The reason why it's acceptable that Quiet runs around in a ridiculous getup is that it's fantasy, there's all sorts of weird things that happen in MGS, why can't there be a woman in a war zone in only a bikini?

But then when someone says "why can't a woman overweight," the response is "that's not realistic!"

 

[flkraven]

I understand if you don't like the character and her purpose but you don't get to say if his creativity decision is bad for industry or women, that's why we have ESRB Ratings.

I don't think you understand the purpose of ESRB ratings.

Well its on wikipedia, guess I'm wrong. I don't care either way. I'll continue to enjoy Kojimas games and find which characters I like by their stories and how they play rather than the clothes they wear. (Btw I liked Quiet's portrayal way better than Kaz's) And if that means that I'm a bad person for doing so then I'll just have to live with that.

Cool. Next time don't swoop into a thread and try to delegitimize an argument by saying people should just not play it. Instead, just admit you don't give a fuck what other people think and move on.

 

[PeterLegend]

Donald Trump will be supporting this game.

Spoiler

So will I GIGGIDY

 

[justjim89]

Jeff Gerstmann said it best:

"Every time I walk down there she is just laying on the bed with her bra off, and its just like, fuck this game! Every time you are in the helicopter, all of a sudden its like - now Quiet is going to shove her ass in your face for a while because 'she has to stretch before the mission, not because we’re sickos!’ Fucking fuck off."

Kojima is a worthless hack when it comes to female characters, and in my mind it outweighs the fact that he made a clever meta-narrative in 2001.

 

[ZSeba]

Well its on wikipedia, guess I'm wrong. I don't care either way. I'll continue to enjoy Kojimas games and find which characters I like by their stories and how they play rather than the clothes they wear. (Btw I liked Quiet's portrayal way better than Kaz's) And if that means that I'm a bad person for doing so then I'll just have to live with that.

Yeah, because that's the only thing wrong with Quiet, nothing else.

 

[Adam_Vania]

i loved MGSV. i thought Quiet had an awesome story. i dont mind the costume cos im a fan of fantasy culture and saw Conan the Barbarian when i was a kid.

feel like most of the "she was a horrible character talk" can be chalked up to costume design, dress her from head to toe and leave everything exactly the same and people would have raved about this strong female character who completely inverts the standard Escort Mission power dynamics, she is basically escorting Snake through most of this game.

unfortunately its easier to ignore the story and character arc and simple repost an animated gif of optional fan service that is only unlockable after hours and hours of play.

 

[///PATRIOT]

I really dont care.

I wish the battle against sexuality would end soon. You dont have to explain your actions, its your game, do what you want with it.

.

 

[Ninjimbo]

One google later, and I already see that her body in underwear is given to the player for S-ranking the game.

So she's sexually objectified even more literally than most others. Her scantily clad body is literally given as a reward.

Well, I never S-ranked anything in Peace Walker so I missed it. I guess my example is thrown out. She's still a really great character.

The coolest Nicaraguan in all of videoagames.

 

[ZSeba]

I really dont care.

I wish the battle against sexuality would end soon. You dont have to explain your actions, its your game, do what you want with it.

Nobody is against sexuality

 

[Euphor!a]

What if you like the game and want more like it?

"Vote with your wallet" is not a valid way to dismiss any complaint about a game.

Then you should buy it? But at some point you are saying that X is not enough of an issue for me to not buy it, so why should the developer care? Seriously, if they like what they are making and you are buying what they are making, I just don't see the incentive.

 

[KO Traveling Hobo]

I feel like I need a bingo card.
"Vote with your wallet!" like that magically fixes things.
"Let creators do what they want!" like posts on a message board are a literal loaded gun held to Kojima's head, a finger on the trigger just waiting for him to tell the character designer to draw some titties.
"Stop crying!" as a counterpoint to what is, for the most part, a rational, civil discussion.

What is the end goal of this criticism other than to have Kojima and other developers stop including this kind of pandering in their games?

 

[Hesh]

Sony is publishing Death Stranding, right? I would have to think they would step in if Kojima tries to put in titties for the sake of titties again.

 

[Mr. RHC]

Isn't Quiet the character you don't even have to see when you don't recruit her.

 

[Mahonay]

Kojima pls