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Atlus we need to talk about the Persona 5 localization...

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S

SomTervo

Member
bomblord1 said:
I'm well aware of what an idiom is. However, answering expectations makes perfect sense. As I said it works even going by a dictionary definition.

You seem to want to exclude any definition that is not the first or second in the dictionary (I had a writing professor like that he always called it "Conversational English" and would dock points for anyone who used it) however that particular example works fine as the protagonist is literally having a conversation with someone else not writing a formal essay.

You can answer expectations http://www.dictionary.com/browse/answer definition 20
Click to expand...

You keep citing "definition 20" on an unofficial dictionary website. That's not doing you any favours.

The dictionary doesn't have any sources or citations for that definition. It's highly likely this formation was used over 100 years ago, in which case it is completely irrelevant to a piece of English written in 2017. Indeed, someone on the last page asserted we should hard Google search for "answer your expectations" and - lo and behold - we could only find sources from non-native English websites (mainly French and other non-English European sites) or historical examples. It's an archaic form.

It's not a question of whether it makes sense or is "definitively" right. What matters is how human beings speak and what this game's dialogue is trying to capture (teenagers in conversation, typically). You're saying "'answer' being used like this literally existed at some point in history; therefore it's correct, no matter what". That's like if I was working on a game about modern American teenagers and started making them use "behither", "thusly", etc. It doesn't matter if the use of the phrase/word literally existed - writing dialogue is about place, tone and context. If it's not used today, and it doesn't fit the context, it's wrong for this work.

I hate to play the education card, but I studied linguistics (including historical linguistics) at university for four years as well as writing and English – your argument goes entirely against linguistic and narrative convention (as well as logic).

The Lamp said:
Is it wrong because it didn't say "you have entered" at the beginning?
Click to expand...

Yep. Either add "have" or change "haven't" to "didn't".
 
R

Ratrat

Member
Skyball Paint said:
It looks like they didn't have the time to give the script another pass or something
Couple fixes I came up with for fun


"I can't believe Mr. Kamoshida hasn't given up on that punk."


"Don't worry, I'll do my best." Heck, just cut off everything after "I'll continue to do my best" and it's way better.
Does the "Well written localization that's completely unfaithful to the Japanese original" actually exist, really? Outside of gag dubs like Ghost Stories, I can't think of anything
Click to expand...
Hardly a fix.
 
S

Saphirax

Member
bomblord1 said:
I'm well aware of what an idiom is. However, answering expectations makes perfect sense. As I said it works even going by a dictionary definition.

You seem to want to exclude any definition that is not the first or second in the dictionary (I had a writing professor like that he always called it "Conversational English" and would dock points for anyone who used it) however that particular example works fine as the protagonist is literally having a conversation with someone else not writing a formal essay.

You can answer expectations http://www.dictionary.com/browse/answer definition 20
Click to expand...

There is no dictionary definition for 'answering expectations'. Even the page you linked doesn't have it:

Definition 20:

to conform or correspond to; be similar or equivalent to:
This dog answers your description.

Description =/= expectation.
 
J

Joeku

Member
Wink said:
I can understand arguments for both sides. Personally I don't mind a clunky translation as long as it has flair and distinction between characters, an aspect that seems to have gone over well as far as I've played.

What I do not get is the occassional honorifics hate in this thread. It fits the modern day Japan setting, the game is basically about japanese culture. It's not like we're in Venice calling someone DaVinci-san.
Click to expand...

Can...can this be a thing? Someone translate the Ezio AC games to modern Japanese and then back to English.
 
D

Deleted member 518609

Unconfirmed Member
TheSeks said:
Yeah the localization is rough the opening hour I barely understood ("ruin?" Wut?) hell, the opening seconds where they are talking about "Jokers" and "these are folks that prevent ruin" had me double-take because I couldn't parse it until now: They're talking about the Persona 3/4 main characters ("wild cards"/jokers).
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, you're not really intended to be able to follow the opening 15 minutes of the game very well since it's a flashforward-type deal with no context. I think you're confusing "Tricksters" with "Jokers" though, since while the game uses both terms, the scene you're referring to that mentions "folks who prevent ruin" is talking about the former - and they are not referring to Wild Cards when saying this, they're referring specifically to Tricksters (give it a google).
 
H

Hentailover

Member
Yeah, I honestly didn't think twice of it at a time, but there was one moment where, to decide what to pick as an answer I had not to just read what's written but think what kind of japanese sentence this was translated from.

Yeah, I am referring to the "please, take care of me". It's sounds incredibly odd just blurted like that in English so I had to pause for a moment and realize "ah they mean that yoroshiku thing" and picked that, cuz original japanese sentence I inferred from it made sense to me, not the translation...


UPD nevermind, saw explanation few pages back...
 
B

Bronetta

Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
The game has thousands of lines of dialogue and text, Im sure some of it will be less than stellar
 
B

bomblord1

Banned
Saphirax said:
There is no dictionary definition for 'answering expectations'. Even the page you linked doesn't have it:

Definition 20:

to conform or correspond to; be similar or equivalent to:
This dog answers your description.

Description =/= expectation.
Click to expand...

conform or correspond to.

I will conform to your expectations.
I will correspond to your expectations
I will answer your expectations.

All three mean the same thing .
 
Z

zelas

Member
duckroll said:
What's the context for this?

C8iFIMSXgAAht3F.jpg
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You can watch this interaction at 36:00 of Giantbomb's quick look. They found it particularly laughable as well.

Yes, it is a common phrase found in japanese media but there's usually more established context. It's usually not the very first thing you say to someone you've only seen in person for 20 seconds. The only justification I can see is if it was put there intentionally as a jarring choice for players to just have fun or roleplay with.
 
Z

Zafir

Member
I've got about 20 odd hours in Persona 5. While I have noticed the questionable grammar and word usage, it doesn't overly bother me that much.

I play too many smaller budget RPGs to be bothered by grammatical issues all of the time... As long as it's still understandable in what they're trying to convey, I can get over it.
zelas said:
You can watch this interaction at 36:00 of Giantbomb's quick look. They found it particularly laughable as well.

Yes, it is a common phrase found in japanese media but there's usually more established context. It's usually not the very first thing you say to someone you've only seen in person for 20 seconds. The only justification I can see is if it was put there intentionally as a jarring choice for players to just have fun or roleplay with.
Click to expand...
I selected that for a laugh, and the best part is he still says I'm going to be taking care of you. It's just such an odd dialogue sequence, lol.
 
Z

Zolbrod

Member
duckroll said:
What's the context for this?

C8iFIMSXgAAht3F.jpg
Click to expand...

It's been pointed out already, but the original Japanese is 世話になりたい.
The reason people are making a big fuss over this is because people who know Japanese incorrectly assume it's a clumsy translation of よろしくお願いします.

The original Japanese is also a weird and very abrupt thing to say when meeting someone for the first time. I talked to other translators about this on Twitter and I think the line would already be a lot better if you just remove "please." Barging into someone's house and saying "Take care of me" at least maintains something of the original humor, which is kind of lost by adding "Please" IMO.
That's just working off the current translation though; off the top of my head, I could come up with some other lines, like:

- Mind if I move in?
- Can I live here?
- Where's my bedroom?

etc.
 
H

Human Trashcan

Banned
I've been playing for like an hour and this entire localization is honestly very bad so far. Most of the dialogue is clunky at best. It doesn't help that it's super expository in nature but they could've dressed it up some... it's just not good. This coming off of Nier and Yakuza 0 (which had a few localization issues but nothing too major) is super disappointing. I'm pretty shocked at how clunky this is, it really reads like a bunch of sophomore Japanese students did this in their spare time.
 
P

potatohead

Member
And people bitch about the original ff vii translation which was overall very good actual English delivery outside a few typos.
 
J

jacobeid

Banned
It is what it is at this point so I'm just going to resign myself to accepting it and enjoying the game regardless of some dodgy localization. Nier certainly spoiled me though.
 
T

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Korigama said:
Only Persona.
Click to expand...

But not Persona 1 (PSX) and Persona 2 (EP), their PSX era dropped them. IIRC Persona 2: Innocent Sin's "official" translation also didn't have them(?), but Persona 1's did.

I honestly don't mind the honorifics and have to scratch my head at the ones that get "TRIGGERED.gif" toward them. It's an extra "word" that can be safely ignored.

Bigger issues is the fucking awkward translation than the honorifics.

Zolbrod said:
It's been pointed out already, but the original Japanese is 世話になりたい.
The reason people are making a big fuss over this is because people who know Japanese incorrectly assume it's a clumsy translation of よろしくお願いします.

The original Japanese is also a weird and very abrupt thing to say when meeting someone for the first time. I talked to other translators about this on Twitter and I think the line would already be a lot better if you just remove "please." Barging into someone's house and saying "Take care of me" at least maintains something of the original humor, which is kind of lost by adding "Please" IMO.
That's just working off the current translation though; off the top of my head, I could come up with some other lines, like:

- Mind if I move in?
- Can I live here?
- Where's my bedroom?

etc.
Click to expand...

But see: Even then the line is awkward because (at least the character) wouldn't know it's Sakura (despite it being obvious it would be Sakura for the player due to him being the only employee in the shop). The second line is the one that makes sense for the character to say. The first never does. The translation should be something like "are you my guardian?" to match "is Sakura-san here?" because it's the same thing just in different "tone."

Kusagari said:
The please take care line would have worked if it wasn't given as a choice and was just a regularly voiced line said very sarcastically.

Giving it as a choice without making it clear if it's a gag or not just doesn't work.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
The please take care line would have worked if it wasn't given as a choice and was just a regularly voiced line said very sarcastically.

Giving it as a choice without making it clear if it's a gag or not just doesn't work.
 
V

Venfayth

Member
Zolbrod said:
It's been pointed out already, but the original Japanese is 世話になりたい.
The reason people are making a big fuss over this is because people who know Japanese incorrectly assume it's a clumsy translation of よろしくお願いします.

The original Japanese is also a weird and very abrupt thing to say when meeting someone for the first time. I talked to other translators about this on Twitter and I think the line would already be a lot better if you just remove "please." Barging into someone's house and saying "Take care of me" at least maintains something of the original humor, which is kind of lost by adding "Please" IMO.
That's just working off the current translation though; off the top of my head, I could come up with some other lines, like:

- Mind if I move in?
- Can I live here?
- Where's my bedroom?

etc.
Click to expand...

It's not like it being a bad joke makes it somehow better localization. Regardless of the reader's knowledge of English or Japanese, it makes no sense and sounds awkward and stilted.

Korigama said:
.
Click to expand...

This doesn't actually answer the question of why they chose to have the VAs pronounce it that way. It's a bizarre choice and points to a confused and clumsy localization.
 
H

Hoo-doo

Banned
Human Trashcan said:
No dude, the whole game so far has been this stilted-ass, weird dialogue. This is indicative of overall quality. It's kinda nuts.
Click to expand...

That's pretty definitive for playing just an hour in a 100+ hour game.

But yeah, I can see how newcomers to Persona need some adjusting to the type of dialogue in these games. It's pretty par for the course.
 
O

Occam

Member
After seeing some more examples: Yes, some of these translations are indeed bad, making it seem like the translator(s) responsible simply didn't know enough English. Since it's good for the most part, it's obvious that people with different levels of proficiency worked on it. Having the entire script proofread once more by writers with native language English proficiency could have avoided this.
 
T

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Hoo-doo said:
But yeah, I can see how newcomers to Persona need some adjusting to the type of dialogue in these games. It's pretty par for the course.
Click to expand...

Er-These opening hours dialogue is pretty bad compared to Persona 1-4, dude.
 
K

kewlmyc

Member
Arkeband said:
So is this pushing people over to Japanese VA instead of English?
Click to expand...

If it is, then it doesn't make sense. The translation of the text will be there regardless of what language you choose.

I should be getting the game later today, but the translation being odd in some instances is a little disheartening.
 
T

TheEndOfItAll

Neo Member
Haven't played yet, but I'd think you would have to see this in context with the rest of the dialogue. If the rest of it reads like normal vernacular, then these lines would definitely be out of place. Otherwise, it reads more like formal English to me. Nothing wrong with that, but perhaps in the context of this particular game, it feels out of place.
 
R

Rozart

Member
TheSeks said:
Er-These opening hours dialogue is pretty bad compared to Persona 1-4, dude.
Click to expand...

Really? I'm in free-roaming mode right now but am still on the first dungeon. So far, the quality of P5's localisation is of about the same quality as what I've experienced in P2/P3/P4 The only thing I found jarring was the pronunciation of Ann's name. Aside from that, it feels like the same ol' Persona game to me.
 
H

Hentailover

Member
kewlmyc said:
If it is, then it doesn't make sense. The translation of the text will be there regardless of what language you choose.

I should be getting the game later today, but the translation being odd in some instances is a little disheartening.
Click to expand...

I think he means that it's even more awkward when voiced, which partially mitigated by original japanese track.
 
H

Hello? This is Hailun!

Member
duckroll said:
Still waiting for my copy to ship from Amazon. I'm sure the game is super awesome. Everyone who has played it says it is top tier stuff. Then bam. It's out today and... things have appeared on Twitter which shows what might well be Atlus USA's shoddiest localization effort in forever. After the great job they did on Yakuza recently? On their flagship title?

Some examples:


There are tons of lines like these being tweeted by people playing it now. There's a consistent trend - they're all understandable English which retains Japanese sentence structure and often literal adjective usage, but read extremely awkwardly in English. No one would speak like this and many of these lines are voiced. What gives? That's the difference between a raw translation and having a good editor or editing team on a localization. This is something Atlus has been really good at over the years.

What... happened?
Click to expand...

Blane yourself or God
 
P

phoenix296

Member
kewlmyc said:
If it is, then it doesn't make sense. The translation of the text will be there regardless of what language you choose.

I should be getting the game later today, but the translation being odd in some instances is a little disheartening.
Click to expand...

You don't have to hear native English voice actors speaking broken English.
 
W

Waji

Member
Joeku said:
(Spoilers I guess for like fifteen minutes into the game): https://youtu.be/Typ1WD3WWBs?t=10m40s

So, the two scenes here really seem perfectly fine to you? Like, specifically some of the the Older Detective's lines and some of hers to the MC?

Like, clearly a lot of it is totally fine. But when she digs into the MC, it really does read ...off.
Click to expand...
I only saw 2 words in 2 different sentences that seemed a little weird to me but really nothing else.
Since it was coming from the investigator it only felt like she was using these words because of her job habits or something.

Also it feels like the game would get better by swapping the voices with Japanese.
Reading something as opposed to hearing it can be very different and reduce the "strange" effect some people have a lot.

The problem is (I guess) that people want the games to become English/American, so the more it's adapted the more they like the localisation. And I think that right now, what these people feel, is what some others might feel when the text is modified too much to adapt to the region it's getting localised to.

Since I mostly play games in other languages than mine (since I rarely play games created by people who talk the same language), I'm used to get into the cultures and laguages and I actually don't like games/movies and so on, when they deviate too much.
 
R

Rarius

Member
Considering P3 and P4 have some really, really weird dialogue pieces, a few examples among countless others really doesn't bother me.

What bothers me is that we had to wait so long for this localization, they didn't change as much as they acted like they would
 
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