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Yooka-Laylee: Games have evolved past this - in what way actually?
- Thread starter Yoshi
- Start date
That's an interesting comparison. 2 design philosophies,really.
They definitely nailed the look of the some of the characters in Yooka-Laylee. I really like Trowzer, Rextro, Kartos and Dr. Puzz's designs.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Sorry, but that's disingenuous, you are comparing a major-publisher funded AAA remake in a dedicated engine, exclusive to one platform to an effort of a <20 persons team on a minor budget using a general purpose engine for multiple platforms here. And the difference is not that the art design is worse in Yooka but that the production values are sky high in Ratchet.
Presentation-wise, yes, it is similar, but gameplay-wise, it's night and day. Which is a good thing from my perspective, because I think DKC is rather weak and DKC TF is one of the best games ever made, but boy, are those very different games. The fluidity, the speed, the design approach to the levels, it's absolutely not the same and not feeling the same either.
I'd argue the story and presentation of Jak & Daxter is actually weaker. Disregarding the disasters that were 2 & 3 for various reasons (including presentation, that's some Shadow the Edgehog shit right there), I do not agree that the more serious American-comic themed story of Jak 1 is superior to the whimsical British-humour style story of Banjo. Both stories are super simple, just that Jak takes itself serious, where Banjo (and Yooka, from what I have seen so far) is living off some crude and unique humour. Why would one appriach be superior to the other? You may prefer one of those approaches over the other, but neither is inherently superior. Also, let's take a look at the motivation for the collectibles.
Jak's jiggys: Powering devices to reach new worlds
Banjo's jiggys: allow to solve jigsaw puzzles which open the gates to new worlds
Yooka's jiggys: pages to a magical book that allows to visit and change worlds
Jak's notes: They are valuable artifacts from a past civilisation, you can buy more power cells from them
Banjo's notes: They are magical and can open gates in Grunty's lair
Yooka's notes: After all books are gone, feathers, allowing to write new books, are particularly valuable, so they can be used as currency
Jak's Jinjos: No explanation, some random flies that give jiggys
Banjo's Jinjos: Captured by the evil witch, if you help a full group, they are thankful and give you a jiggy as a reward
Yooka's Jinjos: No explanation, just some monsters that, if you find all five in a world give you a Jiggy.
I really don't see the difference in explanation of the collectibles, if anything, Banjo gets the edge for explaining all three types of collectibles rather than just two.
Agreed I fixed it to be more representative. Used key art only to represent the original art design concepts better.
I totally agree with this, but I would also argue these are the furthest from the traditional Banjo designs.
EDIT: Maybe not Dr. Puzz, not a fan of the penis head thing going on.
Fixed my posty to be more representative from a charcter design perspective.
I'm not saying they are exactly the same, but if someone had not played the SNES DK in years I bet they would say it plays like a DK game, albiet much better playing.
Ratchet may be a better example as it is a bit lighter. My point was not that Jak's story was darker, just that there was some substance. Even "super wacky modern kids show" like Gumball have something to say behind all the craziness. I just don't think you can create a story that is "crude and unique humor" without something behind it. Hell, Conker was crude as hell, but there was a definite through line with the plot and characters and tasks given.
Not going to argue too much on this one as I generally agree with your point. Although I think there is more context in the Jak collectibles than the Banjo, baring the jiggies. But I think that is a matter of personal preference.
The reviews seem pretty consistent, though, despite the split in terms of liking / disliking it: Nearly everyone agrees it's an accurate recreation of 90's era 3D mascot-driven platformers, capturing the things people liked about them but not adding much new. If you liked those games, you'll probably like it; if you didn't, you won't.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I'd suggest leaving Conker out of the discussion because it is really quite different, being a very strongly story dirven game, whereas all collectathons I know are primarily or even exclusively gameplay-driven. Wrt story, Conker obviously has all the other games we might discuss beat handily. But the matter of fact is: What is story substance? Banjo has a base story that stands on its own, an evil witch has kidnapped a cute bear and her brother and his friend try their best to beat the witch's ass in her own lair, which is all magic and gated by magical puzzle locks and magical note doors. The Yooka-Laylee story substance is a bit more than that, talking about an evil corporate boss who tries to build a monopoly and even gain world dominance by capturing all books, among them a magical world building one which happens to have been in possession of Yooka and Laylee up to that point (unknowing of its powers). I think the stories do not have much less substance than Jak's story does and I don't really see what you feel is missing here when compared to Jak.
Actually, the only thing other than tone different in that regard is, that Banjo an Yooka choose a decidedly gamey way of presenting the story with funny noises, texts and funny animations (which wouldn't flow with more film-like presentations), whereas Jak uses voice acting and more "down to earth" animations. But looking at Rextro's adroably cute animations, it would be a shame if they had to go in favor of a more film-like presentation.
Yeah, the "games have evolved past X" line in reviews is a good way for me to disregard your opinion. Unless you can immediately after go into actual detail to explain that point, it's just a vague platitude like the "shooting was meaty".
I think there are ways 3d platformers could be evolved (like any genre), and that the 3d Mario games have done that with stuff like Sunshine, and then the Galaxy games. Even with those games though, it's largely control and camera improvements, on top of just layering in a bunch of neat physics based mechanics + environments. Like most genres, I think the evolution has been slow and mostly based around conveniences, or trimming the fat out of things people never liked/don't have the patience for now.
The idea that games have evolved past the Banjo Kazooie's of the 90s, would have to mean we have a roster of newer games doing what they do better. All we've got is Mario, and Ratchet & Clank has frankly stayed pretty iterative. What other games are integrating incredible 3d platforming? All I've seen are some action games that have integrated in some simplistic platforming like Uncharted or Dying Light.
Like action/RPGs now, they don't do everything that made CRPGs compelling to play, and so I don't think we've evolved past those either. Almost seems like better production values and action are the thing people expect now as evolution, and that's silly.
I think there are ways 3d platformers could be evolved (like any genre), and that the 3d Mario games have done that with stuff like Sunshine, and then the Galaxy games. Even with those games though, it's largely control and camera improvements, on top of just layering in a bunch of neat physics based mechanics + environments. Like most genres, I think the evolution has been slow and mostly based around conveniences, or trimming the fat out of things people never liked/don't have the patience for now.
The idea that games have evolved past the Banjo Kazooie's of the 90s, would have to mean we have a roster of newer games doing what they do better. All we've got is Mario, and Ratchet & Clank has frankly stayed pretty iterative. What other games are integrating incredible 3d platforming? All I've seen are some action games that have integrated in some simplistic platforming like Uncharted or Dying Light.
Like action/RPGs now, they don't do everything that made CRPGs compelling to play, and so I don't think we've evolved past those either. Almost seems like better production values and action are the thing people expect now as evolution, and that's silly.
If the "evolution" people talk about involves the dominant genre being shooters of various sorts, then I think it should be re-evaluated.
I think there's plenty of room for the so-called "obsolete" game styles to have a large audience today; they just need to do a better job honing themselves and leaving behind the parts that annoy people. I think that's true of platformers and of turn-based RPGs as well.
I think there's plenty of room for the so-called "obsolete" game styles to have a large audience today; they just need to do a better job honing themselves and leaving behind the parts that annoy people. I think that's true of platformers and of turn-based RPGs as well.
Not every reviewer is going to address the game from a perspective of a nostalgic fan that may love the genre and backed the kickstarter. It's pretty understandable that those people are unimpressed with the game in general, possibly rate it poorly, and that's okay. It's the game it's fanbase wants, they shouldn't be preoccupied with how well someone else scores it if they have fun.
I don't expect rail shooters to score well, but that's okay, I still love them. I don't need other people to appreciate that.
I don't expect rail shooters to score well, but that's okay, I still love them. I don't need other people to appreciate that.
Easy Allies' review of Yooka-Laylee: 3 out of 5 stars which is below average on their scale. Total Biscuit even makes an appearance in their comments section.
- They say it harkens back to old platforming games that were made the style of Banjo-Kazooie or Donkey Kong 64 but it ends up being dull and uninspired
due to the level design being a laundry list of things to do with inconsistent quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiuYNE5dKhQ
They also say other developers and older games have done what Yooka Laylee tries to do but better already.
- They say it harkens back to old platforming games that were made the style of Banjo-Kazooie or Donkey Kong 64 but it ends up being dull and uninspired
due to the level design being a laundry list of things to do with inconsistent quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiuYNE5dKhQ
They also say other developers and older games have done what Yooka Laylee tries to do but better already.
BK was a grind for me. I never made it through Banjo Tooie back in the day for a lot of the reasons people are dumping on this game now. DK64 had similar design problems for me too. But that's the genre: the Mario 64 clone. I hated all the backtracking levels in Halo 3 too but people worship it. There's a flavor for everybody out there. Backers asked for a new Banjo Kazooie and it looks as if they delivered exactly that.
I think the difference here is rail shooters are still made today, while this subgenre is a rarity these days. I don't care about review scores, but I do understand that review aggregation sites and other aggregators do have an influence on the success of a game. I'm cool with reviewers rating the game whatever it deserves, but it would be great if the blanket statements about collect-a-thons being evolved past what YL offers were addressed. I'm going to enjoy this game either way, but also hopeful for a future where the lessons learned can be applied to actually "evolve" the genre.
This sounds like a complaint about a difficult spike. Also, the final boss in a Rare game is purposely made to be a 'final exam boss' to test everything your learned. A lot of gamers love that since it shows how much you've grown.
Most plateformers have laughably easy final bosses, looking at you Galaxy 2.
I agree with this. Shovel Knight is closer to a SNES game than a NES game. If anything, Shovel Knight Is the romantic version of what gamers remember the 8 bit to be like.
Donkey Kong by Retro are fully modern 2D games. Even the graphics reflexs this. The only thing really old school about them is the difficulty level.
Mega Mega 9 and 10 are full retro games. They removed features from the older games, including the slide and charged shot since the engine is based on Mege Man 2. The only modern elements are the graphics to create some of the enemies.
SlasherJPC
Banned
Except the final boss here feels like tedium. Not some test of all abilities. Actually you barely do anything with all your abilities here.
Then the crismism lays on how it was implemented, not the design itself.
And I asked again, do they name the games that have done the 3D plateformer, collection type game better than YL?
Incandenza
Banned
Danielle Riendeau of Waypoint has a good breakdown of how the game compares to N64-era platformers:
https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/yooka-laylee-is-breaking-my-damned-heart
https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/yooka-laylee-is-breaking-my-damned-heart
exmachina64
Banned
I'm feeling similarly at the moment.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
But it seems to me like reviews of Souls games don't usually cut them this slack of "the controls suck ass but it was on purpose so it's fine," at least in the ones I've read. Those games have higher Metacritic scores than YL does, but it seems that's because this game has camera and performance issues, among others. It's not like reviews are saying "genre is old, 5/10" here.
As for your experience with Dark Souls, that just seems like you ended up liking the genre that you thought you didn't like. That can happen! But it has no bearing on whether the genre itself is outdated.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
"Nostalgia" is not the same as "knew".
Benzychenz
Member
I played Banjo a couple years ago and think it's a 7/10 or so.
The controls are awkward and stiff compared to modern platformers.
The level design is mostly boring. Lots of big open areas with little actual platforming challenge and a lot of running back and forth.
The game is very repetitive, it doesn't introduce new ideas and keep the game fresh (like say, like Mario Galaxy), and instead has you doing mostly the same stuff from start to finish (of course there's a few little powerups here and there).
Hearing that Yooka is basically just Banjo again rather than an evolution of the formula is pretty disappointing.
The controls are awkward and stiff compared to modern platformers.
The level design is mostly boring. Lots of big open areas with little actual platforming challenge and a lot of running back and forth.
The game is very repetitive, it doesn't introduce new ideas and keep the game fresh (like say, like Mario Galaxy), and instead has you doing mostly the same stuff from start to finish (of course there's a few little powerups here and there).
Hearing that Yooka is basically just Banjo again rather than an evolution of the formula is pretty disappointing.
Backers wanted a Banjo spiritual successor, from some of the reviews I have seen they succeeded that..but the quality is lacking Camera issues, frame rate issues, bad quiz questions at random times uninspired hub world, worlds with lacking in clear direction, ect, having played Banjo recently it holds up. Yooka Laylee seems to be a *bad attempt* at trying to make the same quality of game, nothing wrong with banjo from a design perspective I still loved it, but seems to me its a bad first attempt from them.
ShemhazaiX
Member
It's hard to argue that the game doesn't feel outdated when Banjo Kazooie was already outdated compared to the true evolution of platformers, Crash Bandicoot.
grap3fruitman
Banned
Yooka-Laylee is a rehash but Call of Duty is a haven of originality? Okay.
Look at CoD2. Then look at CoD4:MW. Then look at CoD:IW.
CoD may have a lot of releases as it iterates, but it's iterated a shitton more in even the last 5 years compared to what Yooka-Laylee has done. Hell, I'd argue CoD has changed more since the launch of the 360 than Mario has since the launch of the N64.
DieNgamers
Member
It's hard to argue that the game doesn't feel outdated when Banjo Kazooie was already outdated compared to the true evolution of platformers, Bug!.
These are given an explanation though? its an unskippable part of the tutorial level. Theyre scouts sent out by Kiera to track lurker activity but wound up captured. Rescuing them nets you a power cell. Theyre more or less the same conceit as the Jinjos. you dont need to pull this pub argument horseshit to make your point.
What the hell?
Have you actually played any Call of Duty game? and if you say yes, then you are lying.
Call of Duty have changed every year let alone anything else.
Chronospherics
Member
I think games have improved with regards to a varied number of user experience enhancements. Things like controls, camera work, feedback, navigational tools (like maps).
I think in some areas, Yooka Laylee mistakes these limitations and user experience issues, as design choices, and emulates them, or doesn't care to fix them, for the sake of nostalgia.
It's also worth noting that to some extent the collection orientated platformers on the N64 were leading innovation. Pushing graphical boundaries and offered an incredible spectacle for players to enjoy. Banjo Kazooie is one of the best looking games on the N64 and it would be naive to deny that as a significant component in its appeal.
I think in some areas, Yooka Laylee mistakes these limitations and user experience issues, as design choices, and emulates them, or doesn't care to fix them, for the sake of nostalgia.
It's also worth noting that to some extent the collection orientated platformers on the N64 were leading innovation. Pushing graphical boundaries and offered an incredible spectacle for players to enjoy. Banjo Kazooie is one of the best looking games on the N64 and it would be naive to deny that as a significant component in its appeal.
Haha, wtf. This is outrageous.
Is it though? Note that I'm not suggesting they are better games (I dislike CoD)... but I probably wouldn't have noticed Call of Duty 2 and Call of Duty Infinite Warfare as even being the same IP had I not been exposed to them over the years.
dragonfart28
Banned
I'm fine with it being dated.
The only legitimate criticism for me is about mechanical quirks and the issues identified could be easily patched.
I can understand the bad reviews but they are mostly a reflection of what the game should be within the context of other games in the genre and that's not a concern for me.
The only legitimate criticism for me is about mechanical quirks and the issues identified could be easily patched.
I can understand the bad reviews but they are mostly a reflection of what the game should be within the context of other games in the genre and that's not a concern for me.
Chronospherics
Member
Although I think Mario has changed a lot, I think people underestimate how much Call of Duty has changed too.
In most cases, the components of each game that have remained static are rather positive traits, such as the games controls, responsiveness and feedback.
daTRUballin
Member
I think it's way too early to be excited for their next game lol
It's hard being a shaman in this day. Mumbo had to adapt.
This feels like the most succient overall summary. By presenting itself as a new entry in a mostly-dead genre it becomes some sort of exemplar for that genre rather than an individual game with it's own flaws. So if it's bad (since I haven't played it I can't say) lazy critisism turns it into "that old genre was bad" for impact rather than just "this game is bad". As you say, if 3D platformers weren't gold dust and there were multiple modern examples to judge from it would be rated on it's own merits rather than as a representative of a whole genre.
"Collectables are outdated" is probably the most hilarious statement people make when trying to say these type of games are outdated. The shit in modern open-world games and RPGs makes Donkey Kong 64 look conservative.
People have been rightfully amused by this statement, but on a serious note I think things like this suggest at a deep issue with the way game design is frequently thought of, with older and/or now unfamiliar design treated as inherently shallower even when it isn't.
Cod 2 to Cod 4 is the only major leap. Outside the increased aesthetic flash the newer games have a base design near indentical to Cod 4 beyond a few new mechanics (that are frequently gimmicks more than anything else). FPS from 2007 to ~2015 were one of the most stagnant genres in gaming history, and that's before getting into the way that the series everyone ripped off was already relatively shallow mechanically compared to others in the genre even the year it came out (on top of being inherently limited by the modern military premise).
Whilst I agree that FPS' as a whole have stagnated quite a lot since Modern Warfare's dominance (it feels like everyone's following one IP as opposed to a few prominent ones back in the days of stuff like Quake, Half-Life, Halo, GoldenEye etc), I don't think CoD itself is actually that similar today when compared directly with MW1.
I'd say there are at least two notable leaps in CoD. A clear pre and post Modern Warfare, and then a clear pre and post Titanfall (and both happened within the window I gave). "Increased aesthetic flash and a few new mechanics (that are frequently gimmicks more than anything else", is precisely how I'd describe the differences in 3D Mario also.. except to a lesser extent.
Also, I'd say calling the FPS genre one of the most stagnant in gaming history is a bit hyperbolic, especially in a thread regarding platformers. Just within the last year we've had Overwatch, Doom and Rainbow Six Siege. If you wanna talk stagnation, I'd be looking at stuff like the side-scrolling beat-em-up.
That's why I specifically cut off from a couple of years ago. Now, the genre is finally starting to move on and embrace more diverse design again.
Ah, didn't pay attention to that part. Even then though you'd run into stuff like Shadowrun, Borderlands, STALKER and Destiny within those years. There was a ridiculous amount of "me too" CoD wannabees, but the genre still wouldn't be amongst the most stagnant in gaming history imo. There was simply too many people making them for that to happen really.