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[eXistor]

I played Banjo a couple years ago and think it's a 7/10 or so.

The controls are awkward and stiff compared to modern platformers.
The level design is mostly boring. Lots of big open areas with little actual platforming challenge and a lot of running back and forth.
The game is very repetitive, it doesn't introduce new ideas and keep the game fresh (like say, like Mario Galaxy), and instead has you doing mostly the same stuff from start to finish (of course there's a few little powerups here and there).

Hearing that Yooka is basically just Banjo again rather than an evolution of the formula is pretty disappointing.

Why are you comparing a 1998 game to modern games? Rate in on what it was at time of release, not compared to games that have taken BK as a base and improved on it. That's like saying "compared to modern movies this movie from 1930 is shit because the acting is wooden, the set-design looks cheap, no steadycam and it's in black and white". You literally cannot compare the two, it's completely unfair. Of course modern games are gonna have better controls; they have the benefit of modern technology that literally didn't exist back in the day.

Banjo-Kazooie is and will always be a solid "9" game to me. It was close to as good as it could be at time of release, there were very few games better than BK, this fact will never change. The game itself never changed, your perception of what you want it to be did.

 

[Synth]

Why are you comparing a 1998 game to modern games? Rate in on what it was at time of release, not compared to games that have taken BK as a base and improved on it.

Well no... this would make sense if he was also playing it at the time of release. If I were to rate Space Invaders today, you think I'm giving it a 10/10?

Nothing is entitled to a permanent score defined by the lack of other games existing at the time.

 

[Garlador]

Well no... this would make sense if he was also playing it at the time of release. If I were to rate Space Invaders today, you think I'm giving it a 10/10?

Nothing is entitled to a permanent score defined by the lack of other games existing at the time.

I don't know. For what Space Invaders is, it's a masterclass in game design, ageless and pretty much perfect in its simplicity and elegance. It's like Tetris or chess. I'd certainly rate it a 10/10 game for that, without all the bells and whistles of modern gaming.

Now, if they asked me to spend $60 on it though? No, that's a value disposition that current games have surpassed, but folks will be playing Space Invaders on their computers, phones, and tablets decades after people stop playing Gears of War 4, GTA4, and Call of Duty: MW3.

 

[Skyzard]

10 pages and the games not even out yet

Preload should be up today on PC, not sure about consoles but think it's similar.

 

[Synth]

I don't know. For what Space Invaders is, it's a masterclass in game design, ageless and pretty much perfect in its simplicity and elegance. It's like Tetris or chess. I'd certainly rate it a 10/10 game for that, without all the bells and whistles of modern gaming.

Now, if they asked me to spend $60 on it though? No, that's a value disposition that current games have surpassed, but folks will be playing Space Invaders on their computers, phones, and tablets decades after people stop playing Gears of War 4, GTA4, and Call of Duty: MW3.

Well, that's up to the individual I guess. I certainly don't consider Space Invaders to be ageless in the way that I consider something like Tetris to be. So whilst I possibly would still score Tetris a 10/10, I wouldn't do so for Space Invaders. And I wouldn't even act as though everyone else should be scoring Tetris a 10/10, if they feel say Puzzle Fighter or Puyo Puyo to be notably superior.

As far as comparisons with something like Gears of War, GTA and CoD go... If anything that really strengthens my point more than yours, because each of those were a stone-cold 10/10 for a lot of people, but over time the average person will likely not consider any of them to be worth the time of day compared to current offerings. So a classic can cement its place in history for what it did at the time, but must continue to hold up as a game at any given point in time for it to warrant a high score from the player. Otherwise in say 20 years, when nobody will apparently want to touch Gears of War versus Space Invaders, Gears would apparently still be "owed" a 10/10 simply because it was at time of release.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

.



This misses the OP's point; YL isn't the issue specifically. The OP was asking in general what it means when a reviewer brings up stuff like "games have evolved past X genre/mechanic/feature/etc..."

Let's see.

I've read numerous reviews for my current most wanted title Yooka-Laylee, in particular most really negative ones. What struck me as extremely odd was the seemingly consensual (among negative reviews) standpoint that Yooka-Laylee lacks in terms of evolving past what was established in 1998 (sometimes it's called 1997 but that does not make much sense). E.g we have:



Just to cite a few.

I am really puzzled by this and wonder what exactly it is that should have been adopted from other modern games - I doubt, considering the strength of the cited claims, it's just better camera control. This should be something obvious from considering the N64 era platformers, rather than just Yooka-Laylee I would suppose, but actually,

I've read numerous reviews for my current most wanted title Yooka-Laylee, in particular most really negative ones. What struck me as extremely odd was the seemingly consensual (among negative reviews) standpoint that Yooka-Laylee lacks in terms of evolving past what was established in 1998 (sometimes it's called 1997 but that does not make much sense). E.g we have:



Just to cite a few.

I am really puzzled by this and wonder what exactly it is that should have been adopted from other modern games - I doubt, considering the strength of the cited claims, it's just better camera control. This should be something obvious from considering the N64 era platformers, rather than just Yooka-Laylee I would suppose, but actually, taking Banjo-Kazooie into consideration, I see absolutely nothing outside of camera controls that has ever systematically been done better than in Banjo-Kazooie. In fact, had Banjo-Kazooie released just yesterday (assuming better graphics and analog camera control) I would have wholeheartedly rated the game a 10/10 and never would it have crossed my mind that something in the game is in any way archaic or significantly been outdone by anything else. I would be glad if someone could explain this to me.

Seems to me that the OP is talking about Yooka-Laylee specifically.

The thread may have diverged from its original intention, but it was always about YL.You could make a case for platformer if you like.

 

[Peter Ian Staker]

The collectathon platformer made sense when you were a kid and only had a game to play for the whole summer.

In 2017 a 3d platformer with a metric ton of filler to pad it's longevity isn't gonna fly. Most people will just switch of and play something else.

And from all the reviews I am reading it seems the fact the basic gameplay loop is dated is the least of YL problems.

 

[DieNgamers]

The collectathon platformer made sense when you were a kid and only had a game to play for the whole summer.

In 2017 a 3d platformer with a metric ton of filler to pad it's longevity isn't gonna fly. Most people will just switch of and play something else.

And from all the reviews I am reading it seems the fact the basic gameplay loop is dated is the least of YL problems.

Missing the point a bit. Y-L was made for exactly that niche, though – backed by people who missed this kind of game. There are many positive reviews as well, don't ignore them.

 

[WillyFive]

Hell, I'd argue CoD has changed more since the launch of the 360 than Mario has since the launch of the N64.

The Mario 64/Sunshine games are as different from the 3D Land/World games as Call of Duty is from Battlefield.

 

[Synth]

The Mario 64/Sunshine games are as different from the 3D Land/World games as Call of Duty is from Battlefield.

They'd have to play like Sonic Generations or something for that to be true.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Let's see.

I've read numerous reviews for my current most wanted title Yooka-Laylee, in particular most really negative ones. What struck me as extremely odd was the seemingly consensual (among negative reviews) standpoint that Yooka-Laylee lacks in terms of evolving past what was established in 1998 (sometimes it's called 1997 but that does not make much sense). E.g we have:



Just to cite a few.

I am really puzzled by this and wonder what exactly it is that should have been adopted from other modern games - I doubt, considering the strength of the cited claims, it's just better camera control. This should be something obvious from considering the N64 era platformers, rather than just Yooka-Laylee I would suppose, but actually,


Seems to me that the OP is talking about Yooka-Laylee specifically.

The thread may have diverged from its original intention, but it was always about YL.You could make a case for platformer if you like.

The OP even added that it was about collectathons in general. If you aren't gonna read the thread, don't post.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

...certain reviewers choose the easy route to articulate [YL's] problems by throwing every game of its kind under the bus without further justifications...

...YL is probably a little lacking in magic, and devoid of precise reasons why, commenters are focusing on the lack of modernity...

...[YL] wears "90s" on its sleeve so blatanty, the easiest conclusion people come to is that old games are now bad. Though in reality, many classics are still great and YL being mediocre actually changes nothing about that...

...I have a feeling that the reviewers don't have as much of a problem with the genre [as a whole] as they think they do. And the issue is more that YL has poor/boring level design...

...If anything, it was precisely [YL’s] failure to capture the tighter design and joyful creativity of its classic forebears that gives reviewers a negative impression of the game [and the genre] as a whole...

This is certainly the view of Danielle Riendeau of Waypoint, in the written impressions of YL she posted yesterday (her impression in full are here).

And for those just checking in with this thread, note that quite a few GAF members (in addition to the OP) have shared their view that Banjo-Kazooie itself still holds up as a great game, and is not outdated.

But I’d be curious, if anyone knows: aside from Riendeau, have any other folks been willing to emphatically state their belief that Banjo-Kazooie is not outdated (and that, in turn, the genre itself is definitely not outdated) among those journalists/reviewers who are currently playing/reviewing YL?

 

[Peter Ian Staker]

Missing the point a bit. Y-L was made for exactly that niche, though – backed by people who missed this kind of game. There are many positive reviews as well, don't ignore them.

So? Should reviewers forget 20 years of 3d platformer evolution end pretend the N64 is still being produced?

I'd rather they compare it to modern games and tell me what they believe still works and what doesn't instead of washing their hands,tell me "backers/fans of banjo will love it" and call it a day.

Slightly OT but is Snake Pass a n64-style collectathon like Y-L but with a more original twist?
From the little gameplay i've seen it looks great.

 

[Camjo-Z]

Slightly OT but is Snake Pass a n64-style collectathon like Y-L but with a more original twist?
From the little gameplay i've seen it looks great.

It's more of a physics-based puzzle platformer than a collectathon, great game though.

 

[Isaac Otherworld]

So? Should reviewers forget 20 years of 3d platformer evolution end pretend the N64 is still being produced?

I'd rather they compare it to modern games and tell me what they believe still works and what doesn't instead of washing their hands,tell me "backers/fans of banjo will love it" and call it a day.

Slightly OT but is Snake Pass a n64-style collectathon like Y-L but with a more original twist?
From the little gameplay i've seen it looks great.

I mean 3D platformers didn't really evolve over the past years. Aside from the Mario games they mostly just kind of died out.

 

[Yoshi]

Let's see.

Seems to me that the OP is talking about Yooka-Laylee specifically.

The thread may have diverged from its original intention, but it was always about YL.You could make a case for platformer if you like.

No, I'm not, I'm referencing Yooka-Laylee reviews where a lot a reviewers complained about the general outdatedness of the collectathon formula and Yooka-Laylee being very much like Banjo-Kazooie in 1998, not taking progress into account, so my question is: Which kind of progress is it that is being talked about here?

@the person responding to the scout fly stuff: I did not intend to misrepresent this, I just did not remember this. Sorry about that, if this is the explanation given in the game, I agree, it is very much the same thing as in Banjo.

 

[nkarafo]

so my question is: Which kind of progress is it that is being talked about here?

There was no progress. This type of game just died in the 90's, like the DOOM/Quake labyrinthine/puzzle level design did and some others.

This is 100% a "it's not for everyone" thing. It's like when you try to review a sports game but you don't like sports games in general so even if you play the best one, you can't know. People who complain about this simply don't like this sub-genre of games but they probably don't realize that. They think it should be a linear, Mario Galaxy type of game and they bash it because it's not that thing.

I can't wait when the DOOM/Quake school of level design gets the same love from some developer and have reviewers bash it because they lost their navigation skills after playing too many COD and Battlefield games.

 

[KatamariOnTheRocks]

There was no progress. This type of game just died in the 90's, like the DOOM/Quake labyrinthine/puzzle level design did and some others.

This is 100% a "it's not for everyone" thing. It's like when you try to review a sports game but you don't like sports games in general so even if you play the best one, you can't know. People who complain about this simply don't like this sub-genre of games but they probably don't realize that. They think it should be a linear, Mario Galaxy type of game and they bash it because it's not that thing.

I can't wait when the DOOM/Quake school of level design gets the same love from some developer and have reviewers bash it because they lost their navigation skills after playing too many COD and Battlefield games.

100% spot on, It's a shame because so many schools of game design were arbitrarily left behind because of people wanting all games to conform to their preferences. I can't wait for a spiritual successor to Duke Nukem 3d and Build Engine games in general as that's a school of game design that will always interest me

 

[Purkake4]

I can't wait when the DOOM/Quake school of level design gets the same love from some developer and have reviewers bash it because they lost their navigation skills after playing too many COD and Battlefield games.

Well there will be STRAFE and Dusk.

 

[mcrommert]

I think the main point is that despite capitalism D'Souza failings it's pretty good at determining demand

Glad this game was made it there isn't a lot of desire for games like this... It's a judgment call to say if the reason is that the genre is regressive

But that's the reason

 

[Schopenhauerian]

I mentioned elsewhere that Danielle Riendeau of Waypoint has emphatically objected to the notion that Banjo-Kazooie (and games like it) are inherently outdated/regressive simply by virtue of their genre, and I think it's similarly worth noting the video essay she recently published (3/28/17), where she identifies Psychonauts (a collectathon platformer) as the game that remains, in her words, "my easy go-to answer when people ask me the impossible question of what my 'favorite game' is..."

And interestingly enough, just a few days ago (4/7/17), Mark Brown of Game Maker's Toolkit also published a video essay on Psychonauts, where he explains the ways in which this particular collectathon platformer is able to defy description as outdated/regressive, despite its genre:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I4vD2S01d0
[1:14] ...Instead, [Psychonauts is] a 3D collectathon platformer, like Banjo-Kazooie... [4:43] each level in Psychonauts features collectibles, like, loads of collectibles... [7:04] it uses level design in such a way that what the level looks like, and what you end up doing in that level, says so much about the character in question. And it's also more interesting, I think, than just getting these stories through a cutscene or a dialogue tree... you're doing archeology and psychotherapy and English lit, all while punching a giant fish in the face... the point is, level design can tell a story... loads of great games are packed with this sort of narrative, with environmental storytelling, and mechanics that double up as metaphors... the way it weaves level design and characterization together, so you can better understand the game's troubled cast of characters simply by playing the game, is perhaps the main reason why it deserves its cult classic status...

...Revolving around collectibles doesn't make a game bad or boring or obsolete. It's when the game itself is boring or bad or poorly designed that the focus on collectibles makes the overall game tedious and frustrating.

 

[Shiggy]

Now that the game is out, maybe a few more users who played it can chime in.

 

[border]

100% spot on, It's a shame because so many schools of game design were arbitrarily left behind because of people wanting all games to conform to their preferences.

I don't why people seem to think that the death of this style is just happenstance or some arbitrary occurence, rather than being the result of oversaturation. With Conker N64, even Rare seemed to cheekily acknowledge that their usual platformer conventions were beginning to wear really thin.

 

[DieNgamers]

I don't why people seem to think that the death of this style is just happenstance or some arbitrary occurence, rather than being the result of oversaturation. With Conker N64, even Rare seemed to cheekily acknowledge that their usual platformer conventions were beginning to wear really thin.

Conker, Banjo and DK64 were mostly developed at the same time, though.

We are actually kinda having that conversation over in the OT. My takeaway after almost completing the game: it certainly is rough around some edges (NOT in a gamebreaking way, just unusual for game these days). I quoted this:

OK, there's a matter of opinion and then there's just being bad at the game. There's nothing cheap or broken about the slide, you just have to get good at it.

It's not even a required pagie. In fact, the final boss only requires 100 Pagies, so if you add up the 10 Rextro challenges + 6 Kartos + the slide, that's still a whole 28 Pagies more that you don't actually have to get. I recommend anyone who's not having fun with a hard challenge just skip it because there will inevitably still be enough to beat the game.

And my answer is this:

100% agreed. I didn't fully complete most games of the N64 era because of optional hardcore stuff like this. Unbalanced? Yes. Bad design? Eeeeh, it's still fair. It's for people who like to punish themselves and power through the challenge. There's no need to get mad at the game.

I understand the "git gud" sentiment just as I understand people being offended by it. I'm on both sides, depending on the situation, haha. BUT I don't know why the only thing that counts as good design is a game leading you through any challenge unharmed. Sometimes you need to be knocked down so hard you are unable to stand up. I know, this is a "dated" concept in today's gaming...

I could almost see the sadistic grin on Playtonic's faces in that dark ice cave. So I concentrated and did it on my second try. Take that, developers! It's all good fun. <3

I can see why Yooka-Laylee may not be for some people. I'd have to say that Conker, Banjo tooie or DK64 would probably fail in their eyes, too. Most fans of these original games like the game from what I've read over the internet.

 

[hydruxo]

Now that the game is out, maybe a few more users who played it can chime in.

There are lots of impressions in the OT.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

I mentioned elsewhere that Danielle Riendeau of Waypoint has emphatically objected to the notion that Banjo-Kazooie (and games like it) are inherently outdated/regressive simply by virtue of their genre, and I think it’s similarly worth noting the video essay she recently published (3/28/17), where she identifies Psychonauts (a collectathon platformer) as the game that remains, in her words, "my easy go-to answer when people ask me the impossible question of what my 'favorite game' is..."

And interestingly enough, just a few days ago (4/7/17), Mark Brown of Game Maker’s Toolkit also published a video essay on Psychonauts, where he explains the ways in which this particular collectathon platformer is able to defy description as outdated/regressive, despite its genre:

Reindeau's initial impressions of YL were published on 4/8/17, and she published a follow-up on 4/12/17, in defense of the genre:

https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/art...rmers-just-because-yooka-laylee-didnt-deliver

...The best of those games were transcendent, and still hold up today... designed so tightly around its main character's abilities that I continually wish someone would just make a competent-enough clone of it just to get more levels... Based on those strengths, these games really do hold up today, almost 20 years later. And they contain so many lessons for modern day devs who do actually want to make a great 3D platformer in 2017...

Yes, it's fiendishly hard to do 3D platformers well. That's probably why so few teams attempt them! But when done right, the genre shines, showcasing the joy of larger-than-life movement, with beautiful worlds to explore. Platformers have always been my favorite genre (2D or 3D, I go back and forth and love them all), for that reason: I want to move in ways that feel great—running, jumping, swinging on vines, bopping heads, flying through obstacle courses...

...there have been several non-Mario Nintendo games that have hit these goals in the last few years without being strict platformers: Splatoon's single player mode, Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (a criminally under-appreciated puzzle-platformed with no jumping!), and potentially most impressively, Breath of the Wild. No, it's not a platformer, in the strictest sense. But movement—running, climbing, paragliding—is such a massive part of the experience, and it feels so good, that it's hitting a lot of those buttons for me...

So, no, the 3D platformer isn't dead, it certainly doesn't deserve to be... Super Mario Odyssey is coming along, Psychonauts 2 will grace us with its presence...

Interesting to consider the way that Nintendo has described their design decisions over the years, including their recently declared intention to return to some of the design principles of Mario 64 & Mario Sunshine. This would seem to suggest that at least the folks at Nintendo have not yet been persuaded that the 'Mario 64 genre' is inherently outdated or regressive.

 

[whalleywhat]

People and media change, anachronisms for their own sake are... against our pursuit of what is to come, rather than what we have left behind.

lolwut. Is Yooka Laylee against our five-year mission to boldly go where no man has gone before?

 

[Yoshi]

I don't why people seem to think that the death of this style is just happenstance or some arbitrary occurence, rather than being the result of oversaturation. With Conker N64, even Rare seemed to cheekily acknowledge that their usual platformer conventions were beginning to wear really thin.

Well, if oversaturation is the reason for the death of this subgenre, then there should have been quite a few failed attempts. However, the last games in this subgene, Super Mario Sunshine, Jak & Daxter 1 and Banjo-Tooie all were successful. The only one from the last batch that failed was Vexx. Which imo was definitely a good game, but it was very punishing (the hardest segments of Yooka are nothing compared to the average of Vexx's later parts) and a bit imprecise in places. Also, oversaturation is a funny thing to say here, let's recap the great total of games in this genre:
Super Mario 64
Super Mario Sunshine
Banjo-Kazooie
Banjo-Tooie
(Banjo: Grunty's Revenge)
DK64
Jak & Daxter
Vexx
Croc
Croc 2
Spyro
Spyro 2
Spyro 3
Spyro 4
Spyro 5
now: Yooka-Laylee

This is about everything there was in this genre from reasonably large companies (and I'd argue Croc 2 and the Spyro games are supreme shit as well), at least off the top of my head. Makes 16 games (6 of which total trash, one of which a GBA game that emulates the concept, but is still a bit different). That's not exactly a ton. I'd guess we get this many online-oriented shooters in a year or two.

 

[Platy]

Also, oversaturation is a funny thing to say here, let's recap the great total of games in this genre:

Those are the GREAT 3d platformers.... don't forget the not so great ones.

From the top of my head : Rayman 3d, Glover, Tonic Trouble, Gex 3D, Chameleon Twist, Donald Duck Going Quackers, Earthworm Jim 3D, Rocket Robot on Wheels, Bomberman Hero, Blinx, Bug!, Bubsy 3D, Toe Jam & Earl 3, Tak, Voodo Vince, Vexx, Epic Mickey, Pacman World, Ninjabread Man, Tak ...

 

[Yoshi]

Those are the GREAT 3d platformers.... don't forget the not so great ones.

From the top of my head : Rayman 3d, Glover, Tonic Trouble, Gex 3D, Chameleon Twist, Donald Duck Going Quackers, Earthworm Jim 3D, Rocket Robot on Wheels, Bomberman Hero, Blinx, Bug!, Bubsy 3D, Toe Jam & Earl 3, Tak, Voodo Vince, Vexx, Epic Mickey, Pacman World, Ninjabread Man, Tak ...

No, those are the collectathons. Rayman 3D (which is Rayman 2 and much better than e.g. the Spyro games), Clover, Tonic Trouble and so on are not collectathons. Donald Duck for instance is a Crash Bandicoot clone (a good one btw), Rayman 3D is a linear platformer very much like Mario Galaxy, Bomberman Hero is 2D, Vexx was in my list (and much better than Spyro btw) and Tak is twice in yours.

 

[Lynd7]

Looking at the overall store structure of 3D collectathons, there hasn't been an evolution of tha genre since Banjo Tooie. So there really isn't much they could have learned on that front.

They could have looked to throw out elements or change progression drastically or something, but then that wasn't the scope of the game and people who backed it as a Banjo clone would probably be a little miffed.

Aside from needing some extra polish, the game is alright. I'd hope for their next attempt they see the faults of this game and then aim to advance the genre.

Mario will beat them to the punch on that most likely, but then Mario 64's focus wasn't exactly the same as Banjo anyway. So they could learn something from Odyssey and then add on their own extra twists for a sequel.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Now that the game is out, maybe a few more users who played it can chime in.

I'm trying to enjoy it but the camera is very bad. It's constantly all over the place. There's just so much inconsistency with this game. Some of the dialogue is skippable while other dialogue in the same conversation by the same character isn't. The level design is also all over the place. There's an enjoyable game in there somewhere cause the game has some things going for it but it just doesn't all come together. For now I've stopped playing early on cause I'm not really enjoying it

 

[Fisty]

I agreed with Dunkey's take on it. Just play Ratchet & Clank, it's a better throwback in just about every way

 

[Maximo]

Now that the game is out, maybe a few more users who played it can chime in.

Its average at best its not *bad* but it sure as hell ain't good my nostalgia is probably holding it up and keeping me going. But numerous times I have put the controller down for a break, rather then having a endless drive to play a spiritual successor to one of my favourite games of all time.

 

[jmartoine]

No, those are the collectathons. Rayman 3D (which is Rayman 2 and much better than e.g. the Spyro games), Clover, Tonic Trouble and so on are not collectathons. Donald Duck for instance is a Crash Bandicoot clone (a good one btw), Rayman 3D is a linear platformer very much like Mario Galaxy, Bomberman Hero is 2D, Vexx was in my list (and much better than Spyro btw) and Tak is twice in yours.

You forgot the Sly Cooper games which were collectathon platformers.

 

[daTRUballin]

I'm trying to enjoy it but the camera is very bad. It's constantly all over the place. There's just so much inconsistency with this game. Some of the dialogue is skippable while other dialogue in the same conversation by the same character isn't. The level design is also all over the place. There's an enjoyable game in there somewhere cause the game has some things going for it but it just doesn't all come together. For now I've stopped playing early on cause I'm not really enjoying it

It's funny how people always complain about the camera in Yooka Laylee and just Rare's platformers in general. My friend and I are currently playing through Mario 64 and the camera is WAY worse. Seriously. Go back to Mario 64 and try to play it. It makes YL's camera look like genius design in comparison. I'm sure the camera in the Banjo games isn't as bad as Mario 64's either unless I'm remembering wrong.

 

[jmartoine]

Very valid but a game in 2017 should not have a camera that is as bad as one that came out almost 20 years ago.

 

[Lynd7]

It's funny how people always complain about the camera in Yooka Laylee and just Rare's platformers in general. My friend and I are currently playing through Mario 64 and the camera is WAY worse. Seriously. Go back to Mario 64 and try to play it. It makes YL's camera look like genius design in comparison. I'm sure the camera in the Banjo games isn't as bad as Mario 64's either unless I'm remembering wrong.

Its true, Mario 64 is fine a lot of the time, but can be super annoying sometimes. Camera was definitely a bit better in BK.

Yooka has some annoyances and a little bit of jank, but overall its quite playable and only gets irritating sometimes to me.

 

[daTRUballin]

Very valid but a game in 2017 should not have a camera that is as bad as one that came out almost 20 years ago.

Yeah, I can definitely agree with that, but I'm just saying that Yooka's camera probably isn't as bad as some people make it out to be. Especially in comparison with something like Mario 64. Although I understand that not everybody happens to play Mario 64 at the same time to see how good Yooka's camera is compared to it.

Is YL's camera really the same as Banjo's? From what I've seen, it looks more improved to me, but maybe I'm just wrong......

 

[PeakPointMatrix]

No, those are the collectathons. Rayman 3D (which is Rayman 2 and much better than e.g. the Spyro games), Clover, Tonic Trouble and so on are not collectathons. Donald Duck for instance is a Crash Bandicoot clone (a good one btw), Rayman 3D is a linear platformer very much like Mario Galaxy, Bomberman Hero is 2D, Vexx was in my list (and much better than Spyro btw) and Tak is twice in yours.

Why exactly are the Spyro games "shit" to you? You seem keen on trashing them constantly in these threads. I replayed 1 and 2 recently and had a blast, and was actually taken aback by how well they've aged, especially for a PS1 era platformer. They're streamlined, varied, beautiful games. It'd be nice to hear more detail on why Spyro is so obviously trash, when there is much more to argue the opposite.

 

[Undrey]

You forgot the Sly Cooper games which were collectathon platformers.

IMO the three PS2 trilogies were more modern, they introduce different things like story, action, shooting, stealth and different elements.

I still love Yooka-Laylee despite it not having some of these. It's a great game with a lot of soul.

 

[Always-honest]

i think the point of making this game was going back in time.
Making an oldschool N64 type of game with newer graphics.

 

[jmartoine]

Is YL's camera really the same as Banjo's? From what I've seen, it looks more improved to me, but maybe I'm just wrong......

I feel like YL's camera was better overall but felt more inconsistent than in BK if that makes sense?

 

[daTRUballin]

I feel like YL's camera was better overall but felt more inconsistent than in BK if that makes sense?

Yeah, I think I see what you mean.

 

[Shadowman16]

I'm short two damn tokens in world 4 to have it 100%ed... does anyone know of any well hidden ones that I may have missed? As I've done a fairly in depth search of the level and I've not found them

 

[bede-x]

I'm short two damn tokens in world 4 to have it 100%ed... does anyone know of any well hidden ones that I may have missed? As I've done a fairly in depth search of the level and I've not found them

Spoiler

Did you get the one that's hidden underneath one of the ramps? And there's another at the golf course's flagpole

 

[Shadowman16]

Spoiler

Did you get the one that's hidden underneath one of the ramps? And there's another at the golf course's flagpole

Nope, those were exactly the ones I was short! Thanks Only short 5 in the hub world and the last level to do now.

 

[DieNgamers]

Reindeau's initial impressions of YL were published on 4/8/17, and she published a follow-up on 4/12/17, in defense of the genre:

What bugs me about this is that she never gave the game a probper chance and only played the first one or two levels a bit. She even called Gex a better game...I don't know in what world this is possible.

 

[Yoshi]

Why exactly are the Spyro games "shit" to you? You seem keen on trashing them constantly in these threads. I replayed 1 and 2 recently and had a blast, and was actually taken aback by how well they've aged, especially for a PS1 era platformer. They're streamlined, varied, beautiful games. It'd be nice to hear more detail on why Spyro is so obviously trash, when there is much more to argue the opposite.

I will just briefly describe my major issues with it, if you want some more details on one point, just ask . And of course, I think it is completely fine to disagree, the only reason I am so often repeating it is because of repeated suggestions that Insomniac may take over Banjo. Which I would only accept if they thoroughly study what made Banjo so incredible.

1. The controls are clunky. This may be originating from Spyro not being bipedal, but the main character controls are far from ideal.
2. The collectathon structure is all messed up. Spyro is filled with collectibles, but the collectibles are just thrown into the level, the have no guiding function and appear in ridiculous masses, which only works, because they are more or less unimportant.
3. The level design is very much a collection of linear paths or open areas that are not very functional in their design, both of which defeat the purpose of collectathon level design; the level design overall is absolutely not tight.
4. The platforming sequences, as a consequence of the clunky controls, vary from way too easy (most of the time) to fiddly.

 

[Skyzard]

Having finally played Yooka-Laylee:

They never evolved past this, they stopped trying long ago.

And Yooka-Laylee does it best.

It has it all:

Great platforming
Great puzzles
Great music
Great levels
Great colours, models and animation
And great low-key storytelling and jokes