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[Kadayi]

"something...... something.... it's not my fault..... it's (googles what's hot in the press)....yea it's them!"

I'm actually expecting 'entitled fans' to be the next narrative drive.

 

[Lupingosei]

It keeps underperforming, they expected 14,7 million from Friday to Monday at boxofficemojo, but only made 11 and drops faster and faster.

And after it is out of cinemas in China now there is no way it will reach 1.4 billion like Age of Ultron. It already struggles with the 1.3 billion.

So at the end, it will probably make about 700 million less the TFA.

Also the toy sales are a problem

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/h...-shipments-down-sharply-force-awakens-1069479
https://www.forbes.com/sites/luketh...-toys-selling-as-well-this-year/#2c47bfad54e5

 

[lifa-cobex]

I'm actually expecting 'entitled fans' to be the next narrative drive.

Yea. "SW fans are expecting far too much from us. We cannot possibly hope to meet each and everyone's standards".
I don't like the film, BUT i would have far more respect and interest in the franchise they either...
A: said nothing, or B: addressed fans to direct criticisms.
This hand waving philosophy of "not are fault" gives me signs of a cash grab franchise with no real intention or passion of making a solid story from three films.

It's getting to the Ghostbusters thing all over again. Yes there ppl who did nasty things towards certain actors and that's inexcusable. But it didn't excuse the fact that the film just didn't stand up to its predecessors.

 

[Lupingosei]

I'm actually expecting 'entitled fans' to be the next narrative drive.

That worked really well with Mass Effect 3 which was pretty much the beginning of the whole Gamergate movement. Fighting against the fans will never ever turn out in a good way, even if some of the gaming or movie press is supporting it. Fans are usually quite accepting, look at the comic industry. For years nobody cared about minority or female writers or minority or female superheroes. People already liked characters like Luke Cage or Jessica Jones. Or look at MCU Falcon, nobody has a problem with him. Women wrote for Marvel for years already. But if you want to lecture the fans or fight against them, well look at the sales figures and the backlash.

Fans have the right to be entitled because they supported the product and invested time into it. This does not mean you have to create only stuff like TFA which was playing it safe to not anger the fans, but you don't have to shit on them either. You know to find a middle ground, not everything has to be black or white.

 

[rokkerkory]

TLJ is a great idea executed just averagely

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't understand how you can see Luke as anything but a failure after TLJ. Luke's resume post-Original Trilogy:
- Luke starts a school for Jedi and takes Kylo, his nephew, under his wing.
- Luke senses darkness in Kylo and contemplates murdering him in his sleep.
- Kylo wakes up at that moment and knocks Luke out. While Luke is out cold, Kylo proceeds to either A) recruit willing pupils or B) murder pupils who will not be turned.
- After this event, Luke buries his head in the sand. Kylo murdered his pupils and joined the First Order, where he will surely continue to commit atrocities against the galaxy. Instead of taking responsibility for the situation, Luke runs away to a remote planet.

That series of events paints Luke as:
- A coward who is unwilling to face and rectify the problems he is directly responsible for.
- A quitter who gives up at the first sign of trouble.

In TLJ, Rey goes to Luke looking for help. Luke refuses to help her. I can only assume Rey told him the following:
- The First Order, led by Snoke and Kylo (confirmed Force user), is threatening the galaxy. They have destroyed ~5 planets, killing billions(?), Kylo has murdered Han Solo, and the First Order is extremely interested in either A) converting Rey or B) killing her.

Luke's refusal to help at this point is astounding. Kylo Ren is HIS mess, his failure. Kylo and company are threatening the lives of not only the general population, but also the people Luke is supposed to love.

Luke's whole rationalization of "The Jedi must end" is beyond stupid. Just because Luke hides under a rock doesn't mean the other Force users are going to disappear (he can't just put the genie back in the bottle!). By refusing to train Rey, he is giving Snoke and Kylo a free pass to ruling. Luke is making sure that knowledge is only available to those who wish to do harm. Luke is basically okay with there only being Sith lords running things.

This makes Luke irresponsible (not taking responsibility for Kylo/Snoke AND not following the age-old Spider Man saying: With great power, comes great responsibility).

This also makes Luke arrogant. "The Jedi must end". Who is he to make such a call? Who is he to decide who is privy to such important knowledge? He talks about the failures of the Jedi order and their hubris, well, it appears he is a personification of both those things.

Rey finally gets tired of Luke's moping and titty milking routine and decides to go do something about the situation. Rey is courageous, she fights for the people she loves, she puts herself at risk. Chewie does the same thing. They travel to Crait to help their friends.

Luke deciding to show up in hologram form is hardly a redemption. Rey got him off his ass, but the fact is he spent way too much time with his head in the sand while the rebellion was being decimated. Buying the last ~20 rebels a few minutes is hardly noteworthy. Maybe Luke should have considered showing up sooner when there were a few more them.

I'm glad there are people that see Luke in TLJ in a different light, but to me they are the ones that are weird. The portrayal of Luke in TLJ is the single most damning element of the film. I can accept everything else, but the way Luke is treated is a disgrace. The way Rian Johnson decided to portray a childhood hero of many is a disgrace. He should create his own characters instead of destroying existing ones so they can fit his stupid narrative. Rian Johnson is trash-tier as far as I'm concerned.

See to me that doesn't make Luke "weak" per say. Just makes him a flawed person and that's okay. Gives him definition and depth. And it makes what happened at the end that much more cool and awesome imho. There was never any reason that Luke had to be Jesus that never did any wrong. Having a weak "moment" and learning from it is also cool.

 

[luxsol]

See to me that doesn't make Luke "weak" per say. Just makes him a flawed person and that's okay. Gives him definition and depth.

But there's no build up to the character becoming that way.
There's nothing inbetween RotJ and TLJ for the narrative to naturally bring down the character to that point. With TLJ, he just is. There's also nothing that made Kylo go to the Dark Side. Just some talk about Gold Guy making him that way. It's more "He Just Is". There's no HOW with Kylo, which makes Luke's wanting to murder him even more out of character, because there's no showing, just is. They briefly mentiond gold guy and Kylo's relationship in TFA, with Leia talking about it like he just fell into the bad crowd and that made him bad, but apparently he was only with Luke the entire time and he was already bad. wUT?!

You can't do that with an established character like Luke and Kylo's still mostly a mystery (but not really!) two movies in. It's just bad storytelling.

 

[Kadayi]

Fans have the right to be entitled because they supported the product and invested time into it. This does not mean you have to create only stuff like TFA which was playing it safe to not anger the fans, but you don't have to shit on them either. You know to find a middle ground, not everything has to be black or white.

Agreed. Personally, I thought TFA was a mistake. It traded off nostalgic familiarity and hand me down iconography from the past movies versus truly being something capable of standing on its own two feet as a new chapter/story set in a post-empire universe. Johnson's subversion feels like some failed attempt to dramatically change course mid-way, which seems a rather foolish thing to attempt to undertake at this juncture, given it undermines much of what has come before and has clearly not gone down as well with fans as Disney might have hoped.
It's hard to see how matters can be turned around, or how they're going to win those lost fans back at this juncture, and one thing is for sure, there is definitely no China market for the 3rd film.

That worked really well with Mass Effect 3 which was pretty much the beginning of the whole Gamergate movement.

Glad I'm not alone in believing that marked the start of things. The notable split between fans versus critics and the outright dismissal of their concerns was pretty startling from a media studies perspective. I don't think I'd ever heard of an industry turning on its audience. It's kind of hard to envisage how anyone involved thought it was a good idea really. Still a topic for another time.

 

[Narroo]

See to me that doesn't make Luke "weak" per say. Just makes him a flawed person and that's okay. Gives him definition and depth. And it makes what happened at the end that much more cool and awesome imho. There was never any reason that Luke had to be Jesus that never did any wrong. Having a weak "moment" and learning from it is also cool.

But there's no build up to the character becoming that way.
There's nothing inbetween RotJ and TLJ for the narrative to naturally bring down the character to that point. With TLJ, he just is. There's also nothing that made Kylo go to the Dark Side. Just some talk about Gold Guy making him that way. It's more "He Just Is". There's no HOW with Kylo, which makes Luke's wanting to murder him even more out of character, because there's no showing, just is. They briefly mentiond gold guy and Kylo, with Leia talking about it like he just fell into the bad crowd and that made him bad, but apparently he was only with Luke the entire time and he was already bad. wUT?!

You can't do that with an established character like Luke and Kylo's still mostly a mystery (but not really!) two movies in. It's just bad storytelling.

Simply giving a character a personality change or flaws doesn't make a character deep at all. What gives a character depth is depicting them as a fully human character, with habits, likes, dislikes, idiosyncrasy, ideology, and so on. A character with depth is a human character. Simply flipping a switch and saying 'Luke Screwed Up, now he's a hermit,' doesn't give him depth. It makes him a 2-sided pancake.

 

[mckmas8808]

Simply giving a character a personality change or flaws doesn't make a character deep at all. What gives a character depth is depicting them as a fully human character, with habits, likes, dislikes, idiosyncrasy, ideology, and so on. A character with depth is a human character. Simply flipping a switch and saying 'Luke Screwed Up, now he's a hermit,' doesn't give him depth. It makes him a 2-sided pancake.

They explained away in TLJ why he changed. They spent alot of time explaining that away. It's okay for you to not like it, but trust me many people are okay with the change. Luke didnt have to be Jesus like for all his life.

 

[TGO]

My sister just sent me this.

It's funny and sad at the same time, it's a shame She'll be remembered this way
I can't even blame people for taking the piss because I thought the same thing.
Honestly it very upsetting the more you think about it.

 

[MoFuzz]

My sister just sent me this.

It's funny and sad at the same time, it's a shame She'll be remembered this way
I can't even blame people for taking the piss because I thought the same thing.
Honestly it very upsetting the more you think about it.

The lightsaber umbrella and then the R2 briefcase.

I howled. Bravo to whoever did this.

 

[pramod]

Looks like it's going to end at around 1.31 billion, which is about 300 million below most analyst's original projections......

https://screenrant.com/last-jedi-global-box-office-below-expectation/

 

[Kadayi]

Looks like it's going to end at around 1.31 billion, which is about 300 million below most analyst's original projections......

https://screenrant.com/last-jedi-global-box-office-below-expectation/

Gotta love the narrative spin towards the end of that article: -

If anything, Star Wars: The Last Jedi has high re-watchability, especially when its chock-full of subtle references to previous episodes and Easter Eggs that every fan likes to obsess on. But it’s two and a half hour runtime might have hampered people’s willingness to go about it more than once. Couple that with it being perceived to be a darker film compared to The Force Awakens, Lucasfilm was already looking at a smaller demographics that would be interested in watching the movie. Meanwhile, looking on the flipside, it’s somewhat unfair to compare it to the JJ Abrams-directed episode considering that there was a different kind of anticipation for the project due to decades’ worth of clamor for a good Star Wars flick from its loyal community. We’ll see how it ranks in the long run in the franchise with Solo: A Star Wars Story due in less than five months and of course the still-untitled Episode IX coming out next year

Translated: -

Only true fans will be able to judge this for the masterwork it is. Are you a true fan? Show your loyalty by going to see it again, so you can marvel at its majesty.
Being the darker film of the trilogy Disney were anticipating that it wouldn't appeal to everyone. Everything is fine, nothing to see here.
People were blue-balled for decades waiting for TFA (even though in reality TFA wasn't even a thing until after GL sold Lucasfilm in 2012), it's unfair to expect them to be as hyped for a sequel.
Solo is going to be a stinker that makes TLJ look good, so in that respect, it's not as bad as people think.

 

[Grinchy]

I don't know enough about the business to know how big the problem realistically is, but I hope it results in a major shake-up. This trilogy has been severely mishandled.

As much as I hated the prequels, at least Georgey had an overall plan in mind and gave a fuck about what he was making.

 

[Kadayi]

The lack of a roadmap is pretty astounding. I could understand it if say it was the first film of a hither too never before seen IP that might crash and burn after the first film, but there was no good reason to not thrash out some direction for this one, given the already baked-in box office value of the IP.
Two films deep, Lucasfilm has pretty much squandered large swathes of fan goodwill given how poorly they've mismanaged things, and it's hard to see how they're going to rebuild that in any meaningful fashion, least of all when they're on a production schedule to deliver the final part by Christmas 2020.
All the narrative spin in the world from various media outlets about how 'daring' TLJ is, doesn't mean shit if actual audiences don't engage with the subject matter and based on the BO returns in comparison to TFA it doesn't seem like many fans saw it as a repeat view experience.

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't know enough about the business to know how big the problem realistically is, but I hope it results in a major shake-up. This trilogy has been severely mishandled.

As much as I hated the prequels, at least Georgey had an overall plan in mind and gave a fuck about what he was making.

Except George's movies were bad. Only Episode 3 was decent. I'd take a lack of a roadmap with good movies, over a great roadmap and average to bad movies.

The lack of a roadmap is pretty astounding. I could understand it if say it was the first film of a hither too never before seen IP that might crash and burn after the first film, but there was no good reason to not thrash out some direction for this one, given the already baked-in box office value of the IP.
Two films deep, Lucasfilm has pretty much squandered large swathes of fan goodwill given how poorly they've mismanaged things, and it's hard to see how they're going to rebuild that in any meaningful fashion, least of all when they're on a production schedule to deliver the final part by Christmas 2020.
All the narrative spin in the world from various media outlets about how 'daring' TLJ is, doesn't mean shit if actual audiences don't engage with the subject matter and based on the BO returns in comparison to TFA it doesn't seem like many fans saw it as a repeat view experience.

It's not as bad as you and some others claim though.

 

[Rocket Number 22]

Except George's movies were bad. Only Episode 3 was decent. I'd take a lack of a roadmap with good movies, over a great roadmap and average to bad movies.



It's not as bad as you and some others claim though.

Wrong.

Except George's movies were bad. Only Episode 3 was decent. I'd take a lack of a roadmap with good movies, over a great roadmap and average to bad movies.



It's not as bad as you and some others claim though.

Double wrong

 

[mckmas8808]

Wrong.



Double wrong

I thought those were opinions. And if you ask the average reviewer they'd side more with me, than you on this one. ;-)

 

[Kadayi]

TLJ figures already doing the rounds in the $1 stores.

 

[Makariel]

I'd (not) buy that for a dollar!

Why would anyone get the Rose action figure?

 

[Grinchy]

I'd (not) buy that for a dollar!

Why would anyone get the Rose action figure?

I guess it would be a fun one to melt with a magnifying glass out in the sun.

 

[caffeware]

Can't believe they thought they had a hit in their hands.

Been watching Game of Thrones for the first time...

That's what you call character development.

 

[Rocket Number 22]

I thought those were opinions. And if you ask the average reviewer they'd side more with me, than you on this one. ;-)

uh huh...

TLJ figures already doing the rounds in the $1 stores.

omg ouch lol

 

[TBiddy]

I'd (not) buy that for a dollar!

Why would anyone get the Rose action figure?

And why would anyone even create an action figure of her? I mean, we're talking about a person who contributes nothing, except falling in love with someone she's known for a few hours.

 

[Nicktendo86]

And why would anyone even create an action figure of her? I mean, we're talking about a person who contributes nothing, except falling in love with someone she's known for a few hours.

Hey hey hey, she also managed to stop Finn from doing the only worthwhile thing he could do in this film as well as preventing him from having a satisfying character arc!

 

[Makariel]

And why would anyone even create an action figure of her? I mean, we're talking about a person who contributes nothing, except falling in love with someone she's known for a few hours.

You forgot her pivotal role in hunting for deserters to the cause and shocking them with a torture instrument until they pass out. Nothing more likeable than someone who hunts down deserters with electroshocks. And her tireless efforts to free a few animals (that will be caught again a few hours later) and causing property damage in Space Monaco, 'cause arms trade is "the only way" to make a fortune in Star Wars, apparently.

 

[Lupingosei]

And why would anyone even create an action figure of her? I mean, we're talking about a person who contributes nothing, except falling in love with someone she's known for a few hours.

Because she is pretty much everything people like Anita Sarkeesian and other media feminists always wanted. Minority, female, realistic looks, bechdel test approved, not pandering to the male gaze and so on. So also the perfect role model and toy for empowered young girls. Only that they really don't care about Star Wars figures. She is pretty much like the female protagonist in Mass Effect Andromeda.

 

[J-Rod]

It cracked me up that the space horses needed saving, but the slave children that tended to them can eat shit.

 

[rokkerkory]

Rose was a good character promise wise, executed badly and also the casting was mehhh

 

[gioGAF]

It cracked me up that the space horses needed saving, but the slave children that tended to them can eat shit.

Lol, I thought the same thing when I watched that part. Save the ponies! What about the slaves? Fuck'em!

 

[mckmas8808]

uh huh...

omg ouch lol

You know there was an internet campaign to lower that audience score on RT right?

 

[Rocket Number 22]

You know there was an internet campaign to lower that audience score on RT right?

You know China kicked the movie out of its theaters after ONE week due to poor ticket sales right?

There is a lot more to this than bored fanbois acting out their aggression

 

[A Link to the Past]

The problem for me with TLJ wasn't the strong female lead(s), it was the portrayal of the male characters that I found troubling.

In TFA, while we do have a female lead, there are also competent and interesting male characters. Rey is awesome, but so are Han and Poe. So is Finn. Kylo, Hux and Snoke also seem like worthy adversaries, something that is demonstrated in the film itself.

Fast forward to TLJ, Rey is still awesome. Han is gone and basically replaced by Luke. Luke is weak and flawed (the "broken man"). While Han generally felt like "Han" in TFA, Luke is completely different in TLJ (total "character assassination). Everything that made him Luke is gone because he had some "rough years".

Finn ends up being Rose's pupil, Poe ends up being Holdo/Leia's pupil. On their own, Finn and Poe aren't able to do much (except "fail"), they only serve to elevate the female characters. Hux is turned into a clown and Snoke is easily dispatched. Kylo is the only male character that isn't a total joke (only partially).

You're kind of cherry picking here, given that Luke overcomes his weaknesses and manages to inspire disaffected people all across the galaxy in a way that perhaps has never been done before. I don't think that the Jedi were ever as aspirational figures as much as they are now.

You know China kicked the movie out of its theaters after ONE week due to poor ticket sales right?

There is a lot more to this than bored fanbois acting out their aggression

China didn't care about TFA either though. A sequel to a film they didn't watch isn't going to do very well.

 

[Sapiens]

Rose was a good character promise wise, executed badly and also the casting was mehhh

Rose is the type of character that people want to escape from In real life.

 

[mckmas8808]

You're kind of cherry picking here, given that Luke overcomes his weaknesses and manages to inspire disaffected people all across the galaxy in a way that perhaps has never been done before. I don't think that the Jedi were ever as aspirational figures as much as they are now.

EXACTLY! Luke is now a historic figure that everyone in the Galaxy will remember more than ever. Yes what he did in Episode 4 and 6 were super awesome, but he became a hall of famer with his actions in Episode 8.

 

[TBiddy]

EXACTLY! Luke is now a historic figure that everyone in the Galaxy will remember more than ever. Yes what he did in Episode 4 and 6 were super awesome, but he became a hall of famer with his actions in Episode 8.

What are you referring to specifically? Stalling for a few minutes?

 

[Z3M0G]

I know I posted these already, hopefully not in this thread at least, but for those saying "no roadmap", I strongly suggest watching these.




Everyone may not like it, but I feel it shows they walked in with an overall "plan" and are sticking with it...

 

[hiphopcr]

Looks like it's going to end at around 1.31 billion, which is about 300 million below most analyst's original projections......

https://screenrant.com/last-jedi-global-box-office-below-expectation/

Is the problem TLJ or the projections ?

 

[gioGAF]

You're kind of cherry picking here, given that Luke overcomes his weaknesses and manages to inspire disaffected people all across the galaxy in a way that perhaps has never been done before. I don't think that the Jedi were ever as aspirational figures as much as they are now.



China didn't care about TFA either though. A sequel to a film they didn't watch isn't going to do very well.

My thoughts on Luke and his inspirational performance are well documented here (see post #334 of this discussion). In short, I disagree. Luke is not inspirational, he is a massive failure and nothing in TLJ takes him out of that hole. I did not feel anything he did in TLJ was inspirational, quite the opposite really (just see post #334 if interested).

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic." =/= Luke

 

[Kadayi]

What are you referring to specifically? Stalling for a few minutes?

Exactly, who's going to truly remember that? Let alone document it, barely anyone survived.

 

[A Link to the Past]

What are you referring to specifically? Stalling for a few minutes?

We literally see at the end that kids were reenacting what happened with Luke. He inspired kids by taking on the First Order on his lonesome. Regardless of the truth of the matter, that's how people know the incident, that's what survived of the incident.

 

[mckmas8808]

What are you referring to specifically? Stalling for a few minutes?

He stood up to them and was unstoppable! Literally 1000s of shots and he was still there without a scratch. I don't think they knew he was a projection.

 

[Moneal]

He stood up to them and was unstoppable! Literally 1000s of shots and he was still there without a scratch. I don't think they knew he was a projection.

The only people that knew it was a projection were the FO, and any attempt of them to say it was would probably be considered false propaganda.

 

[TBiddy]

He stood up to them and was unstoppable! Literally 1000s of shots and he was still there without a scratch. I don't think they knew he was a projection.

I'm sure Leia knew, and I suspect Rey knew as well.

I think Luke blowing up the deathstar was more memorable than him stalling the FO for a few minutes. But each to his own, of course.

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm sure Leia knew, and I suspect Rey knew as well.

I think Luke blowing up the deathstar was more memorable than him stalling the FO for a few minutes. But each to his own, of course.

Both are huge. I see the blowing up of the death star to be like when Michael Jordan made the game winning shot in the NCAA championship. Sorta unknown guys that's really good that wins a big game and then a star is born. But what Luke did in Episode 8 is like when Jordan hit the game winning shot in Utah to win his 6 straight championship with his hand hanging in the air. You knew he was great and you saw greatness happen at the end of his career. It's Jordan or Luke going out with a BANG!

It's the poster that's on all kids wall. No kid really has the NCAA Jordan shot on their wall.

 

[TBiddy]

I know nothing about basketball, but I was really unimpressed with what he did. Not that force-projecting himself like that wasn't impressive, but surely it would've been better to have him around to train Rey and the next generation of jedis.

 

[theCalamity]

They explained away in TLJ why he changed. They spent alot of time explaining that away. It's okay for you to not like it, but trust me many people are okay with the change. Luke didnt have to be Jesus like for all his life.

People would’ve been fine with his dramatic shift if more time was spent with Luke as he changed.

I don’t consider Force projection to be that amazing. It felt like it came out of no where. It may have been mentioned by Kylo but it’s just a quick throwaway line

 

[pramod]

How did Luke even know they were on Crait? Does he have god like omniscience?
If he does, why doesn't he use that power to help defeat the First Order? He would know where everyone and everything is at all times. How do you defeat that?

 

[mckmas8808]

People would’ve been fine with his dramatic shift if more time was spent with Luke as he changed.

I do agree with this too. I would have LOVED to see the transformation too. Cut out the dumb casino scene for god's sake.