I hate my generationI saw this on /tv/ of all places....astrology...FUCKING ASTROLOGY....not astronomy but fucking star signs.....
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Forbes (contributor): 'Last Jedi' Grosses Are Collapsing...
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TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Not sure what I'm looking at, what is this? Character Profile or something?I saw this on /tv/ of all places....astrology...FUCKING ASTROLOGY....not astronomy but fucking star signs.....
gioGAF
Member
I don't mind the strong female lead situation that is going on. What I do mind is that all the male leads in TLJ have been turned into one of the following: evil, in need of a lesson, incompetent, clowns or inconsequential.
That is where TLJ fails. They chose to shit on Luke Skywalker so that the "strong" females got to turn things around. I talked about TLJ with my nephews and all of them were unhappy with the result ("all the guys were lame").
That is where TLJ fails. They chose to shit on Luke Skywalker so that the "strong" females got to turn things around. I talked about TLJ with my nephews and all of them were unhappy with the result ("all the guys were lame").
Grinchy
Banned
"But don't you SEE, that's exactly what us women have had to put up with for so many years!! The scales are finally tipping in the right direction and now you MRA misogynist alt-right gamergator nazis are speaking up??"
I see she's a fan of Akuma.I saw this on /tv/ of all places....astrology...FUCKING ASTROLOGY....not astronomy but fucking star signs.....
Meh.
As long as the guys are cool looking, like Kylo or any of the officers... stormtroopers, I'm okay with any of that.
It's not like this movie was meaningful or deep.
I'd feel better about these female characters if they weren't seemingly self inserts or mary sues like Rey. It's embarrassing to see them protrayed this way.
Also, the red guard guys were lame.
Soltype
Member
What is this exactly?, is it an excerpt from a book?I saw this on /tv/ of all places....astrology...FUCKING ASTROLOGY....not astronomy but fucking star signs.....
Prequels were disastrously bad, but this new series is redeemable. They have 4 really solid characters from The Force Awakens. TLJ utterly fucked up Luke Skywalker but didn't completely screw up the new 4, so it's possible they can recover. They came really close to completely screwing them up... really close. Only Kylo is interesting now. Rey does whatever she wants, Poe is written as toxic masculinity subplot for Commander Purple Hair and Finn who was my favorite in TFA was just useless in this latest movie.
If they still want to play feminist story arc then it will continue to suck.
If they still want to play feminist story arc then it will continue to suck.
Now we're getting into misogynistic rantings!
But yeah, I have a feeling that Disney roughly knows what it's doing, and it's what I figured it'll do when they first bought it. Consider this: KFC had incredibly good food when it originally opened. Col. Sanders deeply regretting selling the business. It's a common pattern with resturants; they start with great food to lure you in and lower the quality once they become popular establishments. It works though: Bland Fast food is popular because it's cheap, fast, and agreeable. You just need a large installed base to get it going.
I suspect that Disney has the franchise equivalent in mind for Star Wars. The idea isn't to make timeless classics like the original trilogy; it's to make yearly summer blockbusters that everyone knows and will go see, even if they're ambivalent or only lukewarm to it after each viewing. Even if the original audience is lost, if they can capture a decent percentage of casual movie goers they still make a fortune.
But yeah, I have a feeling that Disney roughly knows what it's doing, and it's what I figured it'll do when they first bought it. Consider this: KFC had incredibly good food when it originally opened. Col. Sanders deeply regretting selling the business. It's a common pattern with resturants; they start with great food to lure you in and lower the quality once they become popular establishments. It works though: Bland Fast food is popular because it's cheap, fast, and agreeable. You just need a large installed base to get it going.
I suspect that Disney has the franchise equivalent in mind for Star Wars. The idea isn't to make timeless classics like the original trilogy; it's to make yearly summer blockbusters that everyone knows and will go see, even if they're ambivalent or only lukewarm to it after each viewing. Even if the original audience is lost, if they can capture a decent percentage of casual movie goers they still make a fortune.
Soltype
Member
Wow, she was already bad in the movie, but the book fleshing her out makes it worse.
pramod
Banned
Wow, that must be embarrassing for Disney.
I know the "experts" will just use the "China doesn't like Star Wars" excuse, but could it just be they don't like bad movies?
Why would the Chinese dislike Star Wars but still like MCU movies? They didn't grow up with Iron Man or Black Widow, but yet they don't seem to have any problem enjoying those movies.
Lupingosei
Banned
So there is a clear trend in the numbers. TLJ will probably make 700-750 million less than TFA. Will not reach Age of Ultron or Avengers numbers. International it made less money than Despicable Me 3.
NeonZ
Member
I think the actual issue here is that these new Star Wars movies seem to be made with the idea that the audience cares about Star Wars in the first place. They aren't going after a new audience or making something that can stand by itself in spite of pushing "diversity". Even TLJ basically relies on people being surprised and caring about its "twists" on the franchise, even if only as a big pop culture event rather than invested fans. The fact that people didn't like its twists is what hurt worldwide, but their overall focus is altogether problematic for markets where Star Wars wasn't big from the start.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
It would but it wasn't
There was a run down of her but for example
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...-executive-team-more-50-percent-female-953156
Which isn't a problem until there's an agenda behind it.
And if you hear her responses in interviews she definitely has a "prospective"
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MDSLKTR
Member
Rose effect
SwitchedOff
Banned
Making the women the strongest members of Star Wars is like putting a sweater on a dog. That dog thinks he's people now! So cute.
longdi
Banned
I just realised the 3 new SW films do put women as winners in the end while the men seems to be gravelling about.
I am all for millennial equal-ism, but this feels like reversed sexism?
I originally felt that Kennedy dont understand the big boys' toys & fantasy with how the new SWU seems to linger without a strong lore... but the new perspective make more sense.
I am all for millennial equal-ism, but this feels like reversed sexism?
I originally felt that Kennedy dont understand the big boys' toys & fantasy with how the new SWU seems to linger without a strong lore... but the new perspective make more sense.
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FMbarbarian
Member
Exactly. I like the idea of Rey as a hero. A lone abandoned girl forced to make her way through the world gets swept up in a big galactic adventure. It’s a great starting point. However we don’t get to see her struggle, we aren’t given a chance to relate to her and they make all the other characters, male and female, look inept compared to her. It feels more like we are going through motions than watching an adventure unfold.
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Rocket Number 22
Member
Not jumping down your throat but us asians are not all the same
The woman playing Rose is Vietnamese, also the interracial relationship wouldnt have gone over well in China either i imagine, they are like a vocal Japan when it comes to Africans dating asians/whites.
That bigotry coupled with the lack of a solid fan base in China and the film generally being a stinker sunk it.
Not jumping down your throat but us asians are not all the same
The woman playing Rose is Vietnamese, also the interracial relationship wouldnt have gone over well in China either i imagine, they are like a vocal Japan when it comes to Africans dating asians/whites.
That bigotry coupled with the lack of a solid fan base in China and the film generally being a stinker sunk it.
Sorry, read that somewhere.
gioGAF
Member
The problem for me with TLJ wasn't the strong female lead(s), it was the portrayal of the male characters that I found troubling.
In TFA, while we do have a female lead, there are also competent and interesting male characters. Rey is awesome, but so are Han and Poe. So is Finn. Kylo, Hux and Snoke also seem like worthy adversaries, something that is demonstrated in the film itself.
Fast forward to TLJ, Rey is still awesome. Han is gone and basically replaced by Luke. Luke is weak and flawed (the "broken man"). While Han generally felt like "Han" in TFA, Luke is completely different in TLJ (total "character assassination). Everything that made him Luke is gone because he had some "rough years".
Finn ends up being Rose's pupil, Poe ends up being Holdo/Leia's pupil. On their own, Finn and Poe aren't able to do much (except "fail"), they only serve to elevate the female characters. Hux is turned into a clown and Snoke is easily dispatched. Kylo is the only male character that isn't a total joke (only partially).
In TFA, while we do have a female lead, there are also competent and interesting male characters. Rey is awesome, but so are Han and Poe. So is Finn. Kylo, Hux and Snoke also seem like worthy adversaries, something that is demonstrated in the film itself.
Fast forward to TLJ, Rey is still awesome. Han is gone and basically replaced by Luke. Luke is weak and flawed (the "broken man"). While Han generally felt like "Han" in TFA, Luke is completely different in TLJ (total "character assassination). Everything that made him Luke is gone because he had some "rough years".
Finn ends up being Rose's pupil, Poe ends up being Holdo/Leia's pupil. On their own, Finn and Poe aren't able to do much (except "fail"), they only serve to elevate the female characters. Hux is turned into a clown and Snoke is easily dispatched. Kylo is the only male character that isn't a total joke (only partially).
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Agreed, a lot of people like TFA and Rogue One and going into TLJ was like taking a blind right hook.
Even Yoda is depicted as the weird and quirky version of himself he put on when he first met Luke in the original trilogy. He talks about all his failures. Tells Luke that Rey doesn't need any training. This is the guy who was literally on Lukes back training his ass in a swamp for months.
Meanwhile girl yoda... whatever her name is that tells them to go find the codebreaker.... is jumping around kicking ass.
Meanwhile girl yoda... whatever her name is that tells them to go find the codebreaker.... is jumping around kicking ass.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Yall are weird man. No way I saw Yoda or Luke as weak. Yes Luke has been broken by his feeling that he let the galaxy down, but he found redemption in the end. He came through strong as ever! And Yoda was the same Yoda in the OG trilogy. Extremely old, yet very wise. Is being wise now not a strong trait?
Kadayi
Banned
There are core problems with both the frenetic pacing of the films (both films take place within a very compressed timeline) coupled with this attempt to usurp the hero's journey. ANH although Luke is the hero at the end, Obi-wan is the voice of wisdom that sets him on his path and sacrifices himself to save the others. There isn't that mentor figure in TFA for Rey, and the pace of the film never affords her the opportunity to evolve. TLJ doubled down on this mistake by continuing the storyline right off the bat, as if it were a TV series rather than a film franchise. This again robs them of the opportunity to evolve things, because they are beholden to a what is essentially a chase movie.
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Yoda was retarded Yoda from ESB mixed with revealed Yoda.
Not the same Yoda as revealed Yoda from ESB, RotJ and the prequels. Even when he joked with the younglings in AotC it was different from ESB retarded Yoda.
Rian's understanding of the character is shit.
gioGAF
Member
I don't understand how you can see Luke as anything but a failure after TLJ. Luke's resume post-Original Trilogy:
- Luke starts a school for Jedi and takes Kylo, his nephew, under his wing.
- Luke senses darkness in Kylo and contemplates murdering him in his sleep.
- Kylo wakes up at that moment and knocks Luke out. While Luke is out cold, Kylo proceeds to either A) recruit willing pupils or B) murder pupils who will not be turned.
- After this event, Luke buries his head in the sand. Kylo murdered his pupils and joined the First Order, where he will surely continue to commit atrocities against the galaxy. Instead of taking responsibility for the situation, Luke runs away to a remote planet.
That series of events paints Luke as:
- A coward who is unwilling to face and rectify the problems he is directly responsible for.
- A quitter who gives up at the first sign of trouble.
In TLJ, Rey goes to Luke looking for help. Luke refuses to help her. I can only assume Rey told him the following:
- The First Order, led by Snoke and Kylo (confirmed Force user), is threatening the galaxy. They have destroyed ~5 planets, killing billions(?), Kylo has murdered Han Solo, and the First Order is extremely interested in either A) converting Rey or B) killing her.
Luke's refusal to help at this point is astounding. Kylo Ren is HIS mess, his failure. Kylo and company are threatening the lives of not only the general population, but also the people Luke is supposed to love.
Luke's whole rationalization of "The Jedi must end" is beyond stupid. Just because Luke hides under a rock doesn't mean the other Force users are going to disappear (he can't just put the genie back in the bottle!). By refusing to train Rey, he is giving Snoke and Kylo a free pass to ruling. Luke is making sure that knowledge is only available to those who wish to do harm. Luke is basically okay with there only being Sith lords running things.
This makes Luke irresponsible (not taking responsibility for Kylo/Snoke AND not following the age-old Spider Man saying: With great power, comes great responsibility).
This also makes Luke arrogant. "The Jedi must end". Who is he to make such a call? Who is he to decide who is privy to such important knowledge? He talks about the failures of the Jedi order and their hubris, well, it appears he is a personification of both those things.
Rey finally gets tired of Luke's moping and titty milking routine and decides to go do something about the situation. Rey is courageous, she fights for the people she loves, she puts herself at risk. Chewie does the same thing. They travel to Crait to help their friends.
Luke deciding to show up in hologram form is hardly a redemption. Rey got him off his ass, but the fact is he spent way too much time with his head in the sand while the rebellion was being decimated. Buying the last ~20 rebels a few minutes is hardly noteworthy. Maybe Luke should have considered showing up sooner when there were a few more them.
I'm glad there are people that see Luke in TLJ in a different light, but to me they are the ones that are weird. The portrayal of Luke in TLJ is the single most damning element of the film. I can accept everything else, but the way Luke is treated is a disgrace. The way Rian Johnson decided to portray a childhood hero of many is a disgrace. He should create his own characters instead of destroying existing ones so they can fit his stupid narrative. Rian Johnson is trash-tier as far as I'm concerned.
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Kadayi
Banned
That was an impassioned write up. It does seem to me that with the new Trilogy Disneys mandate for some twisted reason centres around destroying the very core of the old characters as if somehow that's a requirement for a successful handover in their eyes. I think it's a huge mistake. I hated the way they treated Han in TFA. The coolest cocksure guy in the galaxy turned into a down on his luck absentee father space grifter, who then goes out like a bitch to his psychotic son..... W T F?.I don't know who on earth ever thought that was somehow a fitting wrap up for one of Cinemas most iconic heroes.
longdi
Banned
I agree with you and gioGaf.
I put it down to Kennedy not understanding such fantasy lore.
You can start a new generation but there was no need to destroy the legends. Her directive is to let the past die, and probably save Disney a few pennies from paying those old dudes.
Kadayi
Banned
But the whole approach just seemed kind of unnecessary. Instead of rebooting The Empire 2.0 they could have had the fledgeling new republic face a new Sith threat without the hangovers and have the old characters gracefully pass over the baton of responsibility to a new generation, versus taking Luke and Han out back and putting them down like dogs (I imagine Leia was getting hers in Part 9). I mean jeez, we didn't even get any Luke and Han together. How the fuck did anyone think that was a positive move? Withholding? Yeah after 30 years, that's exactly what people need.
The worst aspect of this is, short of a complete franchise reboot rectifying this misfire, it's now all canon. Nothing they do with episode 9 is going to remotely fix this BS, and even if Disney acknowledge they fucked up and new management is put in place, we aren't likely to see them put the effort in to carry out a full reboot anytime soon. Instead, they're going try and plough on making a new trilogy based off of where this one leaves off (though whether Johnson is driving given he's divided the fanbase is another matter entirely) and there's every chance that will flounder spectacularly.
Can you or anyone else reading this justify Luke came across as strong in any way?
He tosses aside his lightsaber... the one his father made, that Obi Wan gave to him and that was the focal point of TFA... it calls to Rey and has an entire arc of its own. He then complains bitterly that he doesnt want to help. Eventually he decides to force project to stall Kylo for a bit, after which he dies.
Where exactly is his strength?
Well said. Luke Skywalker is the fatal flaw in this movie. Everything else can be justified or overlooked. Even the space Leia scene... it was ridiculous visually, but beyond that I'm fine with her using the force in a new way. Same for the Casino. Mostly pointless, but I can overlook it.
I would only add that the COULD have had a story where Luke want's to end the Jedi... or at least end this cycle of light and dark. But Luke Skywalker needs to fight for that vision, not just throw up his hands and ignore everything going on around him.
They change his character completely with no work put in to
lifa-cobex
Member
Especially when you get a line from Han in TFA "It's all true. All the legends were real". I really thought this film was going to go somewhere special.
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Rocket Number 22
Member
This is getting embarrassing....
First it was the Russians! Then the alt-right and now its just plain old misogyny
How fucking out of touch is Rian, Kathleen and Disney at this point?
First it was the Russians! Then the alt-right and now its just plain old misogyny
How fucking out of touch is Rian, Kathleen and Disney at this point?
Paracelsus
Member
That "cut" was a lame joke, Johnson devastated the saga for real. I don't know what is he laughing about. You don't lose that much audience because of some meme on the internet. That's like claiming "Pepe" voted Trump in the congress.
Yeah a hero needs to have these struggles to grow as a person and as a Hero. Rey has nothing like that so far. That is what makes her so boing IMO.
Something I noticed in TFA is that she doesn't appear to have a life where she lives. In episode 4, quite a bit of time is spent establishing Luke and his life on Tatooine. He has a family, friends, a job; looks and feels like a desert farm boy and give the impression of being an actual person.
Rey on the otherhand is just simply 'there.' We never see her having any sort of proper social interactions with the people there, or any sort of home. We get one scene of her stripping a ship, a fight, and a negotation scene, and that's mainly it. What we do see of her interacting with people, she comes off as an amateur, not knowing how things really work. Visually, she sticks out like a sore thumb with her wonderfully makeup; despite being in the desert for years she looks quite beautiful and well kept, unlike everyone else there. It makes no sense. It would be more believable if she was dropped off on the desert planet a week beforehand, not several days ago.
The result is that Rey starts off as an unconvincing character. She's basically a hero character placed in a random location waiting for the plot to start. And you know what? This is how she's treated for the entire movie. Her attempts at being a fully fleshed out character are mostly token, like the light saber scene. Otherwise, she's just this random, out-of-place, nonsensical character that has qualities as the writers demand. That's why she's boring.
AcademicSaucer
Member
I saw this on /tv/ of all places....astrology...FUCKING ASTROLOGY....not astronomy but fucking star signs.....
Maybe is the Star Wars universe astrology is using the midichlorians
ayyy
lifa-cobex
Member
"something...... something.... it's not my fault..... it's (googles what's hot in the press)....yea it's them!"
Grinchy
Banned
This movie is obviously struggling to even hit $1.3B WW. That's a lot of money, but what are some reasonable expectations that Disney had before the movie released?
Did they expect it to do far less than TFA's nearly $2.1B gross? How much less could they have been expecting. I just can't imagine that they thought it would fall this far down.
Did they expect it to do far less than TFA's nearly $2.1B gross? How much less could they have been expecting. I just can't imagine that they thought it would fall this far down.