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GamerGate: a discussion without internet-murdering each other about it

JordanN

Banned
The free market doesn't work with ghetto studios.
Is Japan a ghetto? They're non-white and they've been making games for their own culture and worldwide since the 1970s. And they've also enjoyed success on par with the entire Western game industry.

The free market also includes people trying to influence current producers to make products for them.
Then boycott or don't support their games? Again, I feel the better solution if you demand representation in games, is to to enter the games industry yourself and make them.
If there's a market for women only games or ones that are very popular, why not capitalize on it instead of letting the big AAA companies horde it to themselves?
 
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KevinKeene

Banned
Also, good rule of thumb:

Apolitical is political.

I'm writing a novel. One of the main characters is a light-black girl. I didn't include her for any political message. I just sat there, thought about how I imagine the character I'm creating, and decided to make her like that because I liked it.

Why is it so hard to understand that not everything is political? And that there is a difference between a philosophical 'if I forcefully start interpreting something, it will be political in some way' and forcing a political agenda in the vein of 'look, I'm a transgender character! Diversity!'?

I find this to be really easy to understand. Yet some of you refuse to see this difference and respond with a 'you're dumb if you think not everything is political'.

Come on ...
 
You misunderstand. The point is that the desire to avoid politics in your work is itself a political idea, and wanting games to be apolitical is also political.

That said, I'm not sure who you are referring to. Who's calling people dumb for not thinking all things are political? Who is forcing a political agenda? You really ought to be responding to what people are saying, and not what people say that you consider to be associated with those people.
 
I was agreeing with you, but whatever. What i mean is: if you're actually fighting the alt-right (which is more than the left is doing btw) you're not alt-right. That's seems pretty straightforward but apparently it's not.
This reminds me also of stuff like "Milo is a nazi white supremacist!". Then you go to an actual alt-right community and the first thing you read is "kill Milo that degenerate f***** kike!"
Things don't add up.

Doesn't fly, because there are people in the alt-right who members of the alt-right would disparage. There are trans women who belong to the alt-right.
 

InterMusketeer

Gold Member
Please enlighten me. Why is it okay to criticise everything in games except some of their political themes?
Most games don't even have political themes. Mario having a Mexico inspired world is not political, no matter how much some people want it to be. Princess Peach getting kidnapped is not political either. Every minor detail getting politicized by intersectional feminists is exactly the problem. I don't want everything to be politicized. That's exactly why we're in this polarized society, and even explains the current state of NeoGAF.

I'll just refer to strange headache's post since he explained it much better than I ever could.
 

TheWatcher

Banned
Yeah Ninja Gaiden 2 was 'political' as well. Some of us are preached too and indoctrinated with social justice garbage in our careers, when we come home we just want to disengage from that subversive crap.
 

PtM

Banned
Is Japan a ghetto? They're non-white and they've been making games for their own culture and worldwide since the 1970s. And they've also enjoyed success on par with the entire Western game industry.
For some reason I was under the impression you were talking about minorities.
 

JordanN

Banned
For some reason I was under the impression you were talking about minorities.
You accuse all minorities (and women) of living in the ghetto?
Japanese are still a minority in America, but Japan makes games that cater to their culture/representation. You don't have to wait for Western studios to do it. The easier solution is to form your own. Anywhere in the world is fine as long as the product still gets made and sold.
 
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MogCakes

Member
There were many smaller movements capitalizing on GG and co-opting it, and coinciding or overlapping with movements forming on twitter and other social media, along with their constituents. The people whom GG originated with and those who argued it initially probably know what it was about. It is way more complex and with many more sides and points of view than what has been covered by any one editorial.
 

PtM

Banned
You accuse all minorities (and women) of living in the ghetto?
Japanese are still a minority in America, but Japan makes games that cater to their culture/representation. You don't have to wait for Western studios to do it. The easier solution is to form your own. Anywhere in the world is fine as long as the product still gets made and sold.
It's a figure of speech.
No, I don't think all minorities live in ghettos, just like I don't think that there's a women's country.
 
Apolitical is political.

That's like saying atheism is a religion.

War, in reality, is something that is highly political. Even if your intention to make a war game was to "avoid politics," the act of depolitizing war is in and of itself a political message.

I refer to my previous post. If that does not suffice, let me elaborate further. But in order to do so, we'd first need to refine our political vocabulary, since the term 'politics' seems to be thrown around much too loosely. In political science, the word 'politics' means in fact three different things:

1. Polity: The institutional structures and values that characterize a political system

Games are not part of the institutional framework of a political system. Nevertheless you're free to deliberate on the perceived values that a certain game may hold. For example, if you discuss sexist/violent/militaristic/etc... aspects of a certain game, you're actually addressing its polity. But that's not necessarily something that's inherent in a game product, rather something that's interpreted by the individual user. Hence why that's something very subjective as it depends on individual views and values. So when people say they are tired of politics in video games, they are actually referring to the polity dimension of 'politics'.

2. Policy: The output, content or decisions resulting from a political system

As far as I'm aware, politicians and political institutions produce laws and not games. But policies can affect games and developers through political regulations, like tax laws, market restrictions, parental ratings and censorship laws. Since policy outputs regulate the framework in which games are produced and presented, it's most important to discuss them, since they affect the gaming industry as a whole. Unfortunately, since policies are a rather formal an dry affair, and require a good understanding of political outputs and general regulations, they are more often than not ignored.

3. Politics: The processes and party cleavages through which decisions are formed

Ironically, games, as a form of entertainment, are least affected by this dimension, since they are hardly relevant for the political decision-making process. The gaming industry as a whole can be subject to a certain policy output thats going through the institutional process, but that's not what's being discussed here. There is a recent trend to attribute certain games to political affiliations (like what's happening to Kingdom Come) but that's something that should be considered highly critical. First of all, you'd need to prove that a certain product directly reflects the political affiliation of the producer and secondly you'd need to show a causal link between the media content that people consume and their political affiliation. Moreover, most games are produced by hundreds of people all sharing different political affiliations, which makes the whole aspect even sillier.

Conclusion:

Coming from a political science perspective, it's simply wrong to imply that "all games are political". One would first need to define in what specific way they are political, since games are vastly different from each other. Finally, while war by itself certainly is a political topic, one cannot induce the same for a war-game. First of all, war and war-games are not the same thing. But more importantly, in order to be considered political, a game would need to make a specific polity or policy statement. Now it would be silly to assume that all games with a war theme would do such a thing, or do you truly think that games like Hyrule Warriors, Contra, XCOM, Metal Slug, etc... would do such a thing.

Of course you are free to interpret a polity aspect into each and every game, but that's something that depends entirely on you and is not something that can be objectively quantified. In other words, don't expect other people to agree with you, if you're hellbent on analyzing the political content of a specific game.
 
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That's like saying atheism is a religion.



I refer to my previous post. If that does not suffice, let me elaborate further. But in order to do so, we'd first need to refine our political vocabulary, since the term 'politics' seems to be thrown around much too loosely. In political science, the word 'politics' means in fact three different things:

1. Polity: The institutional structures and values that characterize a political system

Games are not part of the institutional framework of a political system. Nevertheless you're free to deliberate on the perceived values that a certain game may hold. For example, if you discuss sexist/violent/militaristic/etc... aspects of a certain game, you're actually addressing its polity. But that's not necessarily something that's inherent in a game product, rather something that's interpreted by the individual user. Hence why that's something very subjective as it depends on individual views and values. So when people say they are tired of politics in video games, they are actually referring to the polity dimension of 'politics'.

2. Policy: The output, content or decisions resulting from a political system

As far as I'm aware, politicians and political institutions produce laws and not games. But policies can affect games and developers through political regulations, like tax laws, market restrictions, parental ratings and censorship laws. Since policy outputs regulate the framework in which games are produced and presented, it's most important to discuss them, since they affect the gaming industry as a whole. Unfortunately, since policies are a rather formal an dry affair, and require a good understanding of political outputs and general regulations, they are more often than not ignored.

3. Politics: The processes and party cleavages through which decisions are formed

Ironically, games, as a form of entertainment, are least affected by this dimension, since they are hardly relevant for the political decision-making process. The gaming industry as a whole can be subject to a certain policy output thats going through the institutional process, but that's not what's being discussed here. There is a recent trend to attribute certain games to political affiliations (like what's happening to Kingdom Come) but that's something that should be considered highly critical. First of all, you'd need to prove that a certain product directly reflects the political affiliation of the producer and secondly you'd need to show a causal link between the media content that people consume and their political affiliation. Moreover, most games are produced by hundreds of people all sharing different political affiliations, which makes the whole aspect even sillier.

Conclusion:

Coming from a political science perspective, it's simply wrong to imply that "all games are political". One would first need to define in what specific way they are political, since games are vastly different from each other. Finally, while war by itself certainly is a political topic, one cannot induce the same for a war-game. First of all, war and war-games are not the same thing. But more importantly, in order to be considered political, a game would need to make a specific polity or policy statement. Now it would be silly to assume that all games with a war theme would do such a thing, or do you truly think that games like Hyrule Warriors, Contra, XCOM, Metal Slug, etc... would do such a thing.

Of course you are free to interpret a polity aspect into each and every game, but that's something that depends entirely on you and is not something that can be objectively quantified. In other words, don't expect other people to agree with you, if you're hellbent on analyzing the political content of a specific game.

I agree with mostly what you're saying. However, i think the point you miss is that "political content" has become a catch all term for certain people to brand games from which you can perceive a political message that they don't agree with.

Therefore this argument from my perspective is about pointing that the phrase "political content" in the way it is currently used by gamergate proponents(which is wrongly as you pointed out ) applies to pretty much every game ever made.
 
I agree with mostly what you're saying. However, i think the point you miss is that "political content" has become a catch all term for certain people to brand games from which you can perceive a political message that they don't agree with.

Therefore this argument from my perspective is about pointing that the phrase "political content" in the way it is currently used by gamergate proponents(which is wrongly as you pointed out ) applies to pretty much every game ever made.

I'm sorry to disagree, but that is not what you said before and especially not in your refutation to the first point in your OP. If you'd truly agree, you would have to concede that "Games are about fun, not political agenda" is indeed a very valid concern. Especially since the authoritarian left vehemently denies that argument. For them, everything is in fact political. There is a big difference between not wanting any political agenda in games and demanding that every game needs to have the right (as in correct) political agenda.
 
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It's not, because I am referring to
Is Japan a ghetto? They're non-white and they've been making games for their own culture and worldwide since the 1970s. And they've also enjoyed success on par with the entire Western game industry.


Then boycott or don't support their games? Again, I feel the better solution if you demand representation in games, is to to enter the games industry yourself and make them.
If there's a market for women only games or ones that are very popular, why not capitalize on it instead of letting the big AAA companies horde it to themselves?

Missed this post. This is not a zero-sum game. We can have indie games like Gone Home filling a niche while also encouraging AAA games to do better for these customers.
 
I'm sorry to disagree, but that is not what you said before and especially not in your refutation to the first point in your OP. If you'd truly agree, you would have to concede that "Games are about fun, not political agenda" is indeed a very valid concern. Especially since the authoritarian left vehemently denies that argument. For them, everything is in fact political. There is a big difference between not wanting any political agenda in games and demanding that every game needs to have the right (as in correct) political agenda.

"Games are about fun, not political agenda" is not a valid concern, especially when as you noted the presence of political agendas and what those agendas are is mostly something which is entirely a matter of perception in almost all cases.

And with demanding that every game needs to have the right (as in correct) "political agenda" . I don't think critique of an artworks themes are akin to insisting art needs the "right" political agenda.
 
If a developer wants to react to feedback, that's up to them.

they wouldn't be able to fabricate a victim complex if they believed this. their world view only makes sense when developers are incapable of independent thought and artistic expression and when all the content in games is controlled by some mythical thought police
 

PtM

Banned
they wouldn't be able to fabricate a victim complex if they believed this. their world view only makes sense when developers are incapable of independent thought and artistic expression and when all the content in games is controlled by some mythical thought police
Spare me the nonsensical horror stories.
 
"Games are about fun, not political agenda" is not a valid concern,

Maybe not for you, but for other people it is and, considering the current climate, understandably so. I quote Reggie Fils-Aimé: "if it's not fun, why bother?".

especially when as you noted the presence of political agendas and what those agendas are is mostly something which is entirely a matter of perception in almost all cases.

Hence why so many political ideologues seek to stir shit up in order to build up public pressure over social media. Besides, I was refuting your claim that games are inherently political not arguing that games with political agendas don't exist.

And with demanding that every game needs to have the right (as in correct) "political agenda" . I don't think critique of an artworks themes are akin to insisting art needs the "right" political agenda.

Again, I refer to my first post where I elaborate in greater detail the finer nuances of that particular aspect.
 
Maybe not for you, but for other people it is and, considering the current climate, understandably so. I quote Reggie Fils-Aimé: "if it's not fun, why bother?".



Hence why so many political ideologues seek to stir shit up in order to build up public pressure over social media. Besides, I was refuting your claim that games are inherently political not arguing that games with political agendas don't exist.



Again, I refer to my first postwhere I elaborate in greater detail the finer nuances of that particular aspect.

Yes, the issue here for me isn't that people want different things, it's that people are trying to dictate what content should be inside games by claiming that the presence of certain themes is political agenda, which is weird considering (like it appears we've agreed) the presence of political agendas and what those agendas are is mostly something which is entirely a matter of perception in almost all cases. People say they're complaining about political agenda, when they're really complaining about themes.

No offence, but your first post was very very very long, and even though I've read it once, I'm finding it hard to find the portion of it that applies to what I was saying. I can only find the place where you call out Anita as being somewhat applicable, but only through squinted eyes. Please do feel free to copy and paste if you feel like you've answered something before.
 
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SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
I had to look this one up. It's certainly not unique to the gaming industry or some "new" occurrence. If you post insensitive/inappropriate/controversial stuff on Twitter, especially in relation to your job, then of course you run the risk of being fired.

It was an example of twitter hate mob minorities having power.


1) I'd think you would be able to come up with more than 3 examples if you're trying to make the argument that companies changing the formula of a franchise usually results in failure

2) Halo 4 and 5 were commercial successes and have a 87.61% and 84.21% on GameRankings. They slipped a bit from previous installments, but the score has been slightly lower for each successive game. That's not uncommon for big franchises. It's not like they're dropping down to the 60%-70% or lower range. CoD: Advanced Warfare was the top-selling game of 2014 and has scores of 83.50% and 82.88% on GameRankings for PS4 and Xbox One, respectively.

3) To get back closer to the original topic: how exactly can the changes that made those games "bad" in your eyes be traced back to SJWs and pressure campaigns on Twitter? I think a far more likely explanation is that the devs are running out of ideas and things are just getting stale.

1) I've largely grown out of gaming and thus don't follow much and haven't for a long time, they are the ones that came to mind first.

2) Commercial success on the backs of previous games. Reviews, as this thread will tell you, are about as useful as horoscopes. Player retention fell drastically with each of those games.

3) They're examples of changing existing games ending in bad results.
 
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Spare me the nonsensical horror stories.

all i'm saying that developers put something in a game because they decided to do it. part of that might involve listening to feedback. at the end of the day, they can take responsibility for what content they produce.

it seems people are upset and decided to find someone to blame, so they invented some myth that random people on twitter are deciding what does and doesn't go into games
 

Nightstick10

Neo Member
I agree with mostly what you're saying. However, i think the point you miss is that "political content" has become a catch all term for certain people to brand games from which you can perceive a political message that they don't agree with.

Therefore this argument from my perspective is about pointing that the phrase "political content" in the way it is currently used by gamergate proponents(which is wrongly as you pointed out ) applies to pretty much every game ever made.

I'm sorry, but this is a very specious, disingenuous moving of the goalpost. You should concede that point to him, because not all games are political, unless you actually do agree that atheism is a religion.

I also disagree that a war game in itself is inherently political. Is a game set in the Renaissance period inherently political? How about a game set in the Stone Age?

World War II can serve simply as a backdrop in a bygone historical era. There is nothing intrinsically political about war.
 

PtM

Banned
all i'm saying that developers put something in a game because they decided to do it. part of that might involve listening to feedback. at the end of the day, they can take responsibility for what content they produce.

it seems people are upset and decided to find someone to blame, so they invented some myth that random people on twitter are deciding what does and doesn't go into games
Real talk, I'm not sure anymore if you're talking about GG or GG critics.
We agree on what goes into development, that's good enough for me.
 
D

Deleted member 12837

Unconfirmed Member
It was an example of twitter hate mob minorities having power.

Oh the mob made him post dumb shit against his company's values on Twitter that got him fired? Weird, I haven't seen that angle discussed anywhere yet.

2) Commercial success on the backs of previous games. Reviews, as this thread will tell you, are about as useful as horoscopes. Player retention fell drastically with each of those games.

Do the Halo developers make money off of player subscriptions? No? Then what does player retention have to do with this? Also, it's not even true lol.

Even if players are being duped somehow and they're only selling well off the backs of previous games (you figure they would've figured it out by now though, no?), it still disproves your argument that changing things leads to poor results. Maintaining consistently profits and reviews are not poor results by any measure. Quite the opposite.

3) They're examples of changing existing games ending in bad results.

Well, you haven't even been able to establish that these "bad results" exist for your examples, for starters. And you also didn't even answer the question posed by what you quoted: What "changes in existing games" that "ended in bad results" in those examples came as the result of twitter campaigns and SJWs?
 
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Darryl

Banned
1. Games are about fun, not political agenda

For example, the above makes no sense because all pieces of art that depict people are inherently political, and have a political agenda. Games like call of duty, Battlefield, Horizon, Uncharted, Halo, Grand Theft Auto all have huge political text and subtext. However, when I see people within the GamerGate sphere attacking games for having "political agendas" these games are not brought up. These attacks tend to be solely made on games that have a non-white or non-straight or non-male protagonist/protagonists. Games that depict what those other people's lives are like. This is why the movement appears to be motivated by themes deeper than a simple "political agenda in games is bad" viewpoint.

It's completely possible for games to not touch on any political theme whatsoever. Games are so varied as a form of media. You can form them around impulses, colors, patterns, sounds. You can theme plots around religious motives, tropes, social tendencies, historical patterns. I can't think of a single game that I've been a huge fan of that had some inherent designed political message. This is broadening the definition of a politicized game as far as you can go so you can dismiss real concerns.
 

raraara

Neophyte
There's room in video games for a political leaning. Room for political intrigue, even a political bias if the game is good enough.

It's a form art, remember?

But, if a developer does add a political lean on a game, it isn't the consumers fault for like liking it. I don't agree with boycotts and stuff like that, it's stupid; especially if its backed by some mundane Twitter hashtag. But if Joe Blow doesn't like the games message, it isn't because he's a racist/sexist or anything. He just doesn't like it and I find a lot of SJW's (lack of a better term) simply don't agree with that.

The problem is the reactionaries on Twitter and whatnot; jumping on the hate bandwagon and muddying up the issue. That's a problem both sides need to sort out.
 

SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
Oh the mob made him post dumb shit against his company's values on Twitter that got him fired? Weird, I haven't seen that angle discussed anywhere yet.

He had posted dumb things in the past, it was only when the hate mob arrived that it became so against company values that it required immediate firing.

Do the Halo developers make money off of player subscriptions? No? Then what does player retention have to do with this? Also, it's not even true lol.

Wait, you actually believed that? Ok, well it's obvious you don't follow Halo. But little truth bomb for you, Halo 5 at best has 40k players online at any time. Halo Reach regularly held over 100,000 and Halo 3 over 150,000. But no, no downward trends detected. And totally better retention than previous games.

Halos population under 343 was so bad to the point that they removed all public population counters and stat tracking.

Even if players are being duped somehow and they're only selling well off the backs of previous games (you figure they would've figured it out by now though, no?), it still disproves your argument that changing things leads to poor results. Maintaining consistently profits and reviews are not poor results by any measure. Quite the opposite.

There is a downward trend of sales.

Well, you haven't even been able to establish that these "bad results" exist for your examples, for starters. And you also didn't even answer the question posed by what you quoted: What "changes in existing games" that "ended in bad results" in those examples came as the result of twitter campaigns and SJWs?

I've made it clear that I'm am not connecting the 2 in my example. I'm showing that change =/= good.

At the end of the day, "GamerGate" won, it told the PC SJW's to fuck off and it succeeded. Unfortunately they aren't quite ready to give up.
 
D

Deleted member 12837

Unconfirmed Member
He had posted dumb things in the past, it was only when the hate mob arrived that it became so against company values that it required immediate firing.

Well yeah, the company needs to be aware of the content before they can discuss it with him and fire him over it. They aren't psychic. They don't monitor all of their employee's social media accounts. This really isn't hard to understand, lol.

I've made it clear that I'm am not connecting the 2 in my example. I'm showing that change =/= good.

I'm not really sure how this line of argument is relevant at all to the topic at hand, then, if you aren't exploring the connection between the campaigns of these "SJWs" and the changes made to your examples by developers. That reduces it to you just complaining that you prefer rehashes over any sort of experimentation (via "new mechanics and storytelling techniques") within the franchises that you like. That's fine, and you're entitled to your opinion, but it's not really on topic anymore.

And btw, if game devs all aligned with your views on this, we wouldn't have gotten gaming experiences like Metroid Prime, or Castlevania: SotN, or FFXI, or this new generation of Fallout games, or Metal Gear Solid 2, or Zelda: Wind Waker.

I'm glad there are devs who aren't averse to taking risks and changing things up. There's so much unexplored potential within the gaming medium and I look forward to the games (both successes and failures) coming from developers who are willing to embrace that. I'm also glad that I'll still have plenty of "safe" games and sequels to play too.
 
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InterMusketeer

Gold Member
Why does that now indicate that someone has an agenda(which of course is really bad)?
Don't take it from me. You can listen to her yourself to find out whether she has an agenda, and if so, what that agenda is.


In case you can't watch, this is a video of a panel at VidCon 2016, a conference for youtube content creators. The host asks the women at the panel what they would consider success for their cause. Ms. Sarkeesian answers: "For me, the big picture has always been cultural change, and pop culture was just a vehicle and a medium through which cultural change can happen or be influenced by. So it's not actually about video games... [inaudible]"

In that video she straight up says her criticism was never truly about improving video games. Her cause, as she says it, is cultural change. Her goal is to to spread her ideology into gaming. And that's not all. She apparently views video games (and other media) as vehicles to spread her ideas. We're getting awfully close to that propaganda thing strange headache mentioned before. I think it's fair people pushed back against this, even if the way GG and others went about that was wrong.

And none of the things she says closes down your ability to argue back, she isn't running a cult.
She never engages with critics. She either ignores them or calls them harassers. I don't think I've ever seen her debate her positions with people who disagree with her points.

I'm trying to figure this out. I went to her youtube channel and she gets like 5k max views on most of her videos and they're all TV show reviews. She hasn't posted a video about games in 8-9 months. This is the person who has this huge agenda she's trying to push? You talk about her like she's a leader of gaming feminism.
She was definitely one of the biggest feminist critics around the period gamergate was active. Like I said, she was covered by mainstream media in newspapers, tv shows etc. She's ended her video series on video games (which was part of a kickstarter campaign) some time ago, so there's not much for people to discuss. I guess her other criticism isn't as popular.
 
I'm sorry, but this is a very specious, disingenuous moving of the goalpost. You should concede that point to him, because not all games are political, unless you actually do agree that atheism is a religion.

I also disagree that a war game in itself is inherently political. Is a game set in the Renaissance period inherently political? How about a game set in the Stone Age?

World War II can serve simply as a backdrop in a bygone historical era. There is nothing intrinsically political about war.

No it is not.

How are the goalposts moved?

People say "these specific games have a political agenda which is bad.", which seemed off because what people were describing as "political agenda" existed in every game. Someone came along and specifically defined political agenda, which I can accept, however if that's the case the original "these specific games have a political agenda which is bad." is an invalid point to me because that strict definition does not hold up against pretty nhch of the games quoted here as having a political agenda. If someone specifically defines a word we've all been using in an argument, then shouldn't we all reconsider our use of the word?
 
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KevinKeene

Banned
No it is not.

How are the goalposts moved?

People say "these specific games have a political agenda which is bad.", which seemed off because what people were describing as "political agenda" existed in every game. Someone came along and specifically defined political agenda, which I can accept, however if that's the case the original "these specific games have a political agenda which is bad." is an invalid point to me because that strict definition does not hold up against pretty nhch of the games quoted here as having a political agenda. If someone specifically defines a word we've all been using in an argument, then shouldn't we all reconsider our use of the word?

The very first statement was 'games should be about fun, not about political agenda'. From the start, this has meant that GG (or most people really) don't want to notice that something in a game is done to further any real life-agenda.

You then kept pushing it to philosophical levels, 'everthing is political, see the people gathering against an evil in BotW, that's political!'. Which was absurd.

Political agenda does not exist in every game, actually it doesn't exist in most games. Fortunately.

But I'm not sure how many more times I need to repeat my explanation about the difference between 'something political can be interpreted if chosen to', 'political agenda in your face' and 'political theme used fore story/lore, without any message towards the real world'.

These are all different. GG doesn't complain about the first and last one. It's the 2nd one that has quickly become annoying.
 
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Don't take it from me. You can listen to her yourself to find out whether she has an agenda, and if so, what that agenda is.


In case you can't watch, this is a video of a panel at VidCon 2016, a conference for youtube content creators. The host asks the women at the panel what they would consider success for their cause. Ms. Sarkeesian answers: "For me, the big picture has always been cultural change, and pop culture was just a vehicle and a medium through which cultural change can happen or be influenced by. So it's not actually about video games... [inaudible]"

In that video she straight up says her criticism was never truly about improving video games. Her cause, as she says it, is cultural change. Her goal is to to spread her ideology into gaming. And that's not all. She apparently views video games (and other media) as vehicles to spread her ideas. We're getting awfully close to that propaganda thing strange headache mentioned before. I think it's fair people pushed back against this, even if the way GG and others went about that was wrong.


She never engages with critics. She either ignores them or calls them harassers. I don't think I've ever seen her debate her positions with people who disagree with her points.


She was definitely one of the biggest feminist critics around the period gamergate was active. Like I said, she was covered by mainstream media in newspapers, tv shows etc. She's ended her video series on video games (which was part of a kickstarter campaign) some time ago, so there's not much for people to discuss. I guess her other criticism isn't as popular.


The nature of critique is to filter an experience through your own perception and then to provide a sort of commentary on that thing. It is to set out your ideas and attempt to convince people of those ideas via your arguments. Given that your perception is tied up with your ideology, is it even possible to provide critical thoughts about games and video games culture without bringing your ideology into it and using video games commentary as a vehicle for that ideology? A response might be to indicate that this is all she sees gaming for and that's unseemly. However, this seems like a moral response, not anything related to her criticism.

Another response might be, that she is trying to change things towards her viewpoints, which is bad. In response, I'd say that almost all negative feedback is explicitly or implicitly pushing for change. If you write an article saying "black characters are being poorly written in video games" you're implicitly pushing for change.

The use of the term propaganda is misleading and loaded, it implies that her work only exists to purposely mislead you, this is different from someone simply stating what their honestly held ideas are. As well as this she's one person, the ubiquity of a government or media outlet doesn't really apply here.

For me, her work is like any of the guest lectures I've seen at universities. Someone has a hypothesis, based in their ideology, they provide evidence. You decide what you do with that. I don't agree with everything she says, and think there are way more interesting and prominent people making thoughtful cultural criticism within gaming right now, however, I don't think her work shouldn't exist or that it's ruining gaming. People appear to be scared of some groupthink occurring, which is strange given that pretty much every medium of art has a way more developed strain of gender-based critique, and I wouldn't call movies or TV shows rooted in feminist groupthink. The most frightening thing here for me, is that it people are actually advocating for someone to not be allowed to comment on gaming, because they don't like what that person says.

The very first statement was 'games should be about fun, not about political agenda'. From the start, this has meant that GG (or most people really) don't want to notice that something in a game is done to further any real life-agenda.

You then kept pushing it to philosophical levels, 'everthing is political, see the people gathering against an evil in BotW, that's political!'. Which was absurd.

Political agenda does not exist in every game, actually it doesn't exist in most games. Fortunately.

But I'm not sure how many more times I need to repeat my explanation about the difference between 'something political can be interpreted if chosen to', 'political agenda in your face' and 'political theme used fore story/lore, without any message towards the real world'.

These are all different. GG doesn't complain about the first and last one. It's the 2nd one that has quickly become annoying.

Based on the definition of "Political agenda" which has just been posted in this thread, please do point out the games which have a political agenda. The explanation that you've been previously using is completely arbitrary to me. Games which you've said contain a "political agenda" are just games that just include transgender characters, characters who you don't even have to talk to within the game.
 

KevinKeene

Banned
Based on the definition of "Political agenda" which has just been posted in this thread, please do point out the games which have a political agenda. The explanation that you've been previously using is completely arbitrary to me. Games which you've said contain a "political agenda" are just games that just include transgender characters, characters who you don't even have to talk to within the game.

Games can have political agenda both in-game (see Bioware-games) or surrounding their development (see Tokyo Mirage Sessions).

Nothing I've explained is arbitrary. You have to see the difference between trans-characters existing in a game and trans-characters tell the player 'hey! I'm Laura and I'm trans!' Nobody complains about the former. The latter, however, is annoying, pushes an agenda, and on top of that is cringey because of the bad implementation.

Maybe you'll understand better if I give you a made-up example from the opposite direction (that never happens): if a neonazi made BotW, same game, I'd still greatly enjoy the game. If,however the game was filled with praise for totalitarian regimes, featured subtle/not-so-subtle anti-semitic paroles etc, I would hate that. Because I'd be constantly made aware of somebody's political agenda. And that's bad. Be it neonazis, be it diversity, be it the rise of living costs, etc..

I hope this made you understand. Otherwise I fear I don't have any more words left that could make it clearer.
 

nowhat

Member
Games can have political agenda both in-game (see Bioware-games)
Let us skip the shitfest that is ME:A and take as an example an actually good game (one of my personal GOATs), Dragon Age: Origins. In the game, there are two bisexual characters (one much more open about it than the other). Does this mean Origins has a political agenda?
 

KevinKeene

Banned
Let us skip the shitfest that is ME:A and take as an example an actually good game (one of my personal GOATs), Dragon Age: Origins. In the game, there are two bisexual characters (one much more open about it than the other). Does this mean Origins has a political agenda?

I played DAO, but cannot remember anything like that. So either my memory is shitty or there was indeed no 'in your face'-agenda :)
 
Games can have political agenda both in-game (see Bioware-games) or surrounding their development (see Tokyo Mirage Sessions).

Nothing I've explained is arbitrary. You have to see the difference between trans-characters existing in a game and trans-characters tell the player 'hey! I'm Laura and I'm trans!' Nobody complains about the former. The latter, however, is annoying, pushes an agenda, and on top of that is cringey because of the bad implementation.

Maybe you'll understand better if I give you a made-up example from the opposite direction (that never happens): if a neonazi made BotW, same game, I'd still greatly enjoy the game. If,however the game was filled with praise for totalitarian regimes, featured subtle/not-so-subtle anti-semitic paroles etc, I would hate that. Because I'd be constantly made aware of somebody's political agenda. And that's bad. Be it neonazis, be it diversity, be it the rise of living costs, etc..

I hope this made you understand. Otherwise I fear I don't have any more words left that could make it clearer.

It immediately becomes arbitrary because what we're talking about is your personal opinion of the way a completely optional encounter is presented within a video game. It's arbitrary because, with some of the games you mention, you can play the entire games and not see the content, and it's arbitrary because it relies on your personal interpretation of the character when you see them.

I understand your basic concept, which appears to be that you don't want games to try and sell you on ideas. However, the ideas we each currently hold and our own individual biases greatly contribute to what content we see as "trying to sell us on something". For example, if you hear loads of people talking about trans people and feminism in real life, and then see characters who identify like that in a game, you might see that as trying to see you on something. Whereas, if you saw exactly the same content, but without the real-life context, you might not feel the same way. Do you think that's a fair thing to say?
 
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nowhat

Member
I played DAO, but cannot remember anything like that. So either my memory is shitty or there was indeed no 'in your face'-agenda :)
If you don't kill Zevran when you first meet him (which is a reasonable option, he does try to assassinate you after all) and chat more with him at the camp, he'll start hitting on you no matter your gender. Whether that is "in your face"-agenda or not is debatable - I think not, he's just promiscuous by nature. Which is fine in my opinion.
 

grumpyGamer

Member
Good for her.
It's nobody's business what her real motives were.
She didn't deserve any of the shit she got, even if all the accusations were true.
If she can shit on other people, she needs to accept other people can do the same.
The backlash is almost always to much, that´s the shit internet society we have
 

Airola

Member
I think the claim that "games should be about fun and not about a political agenda" is kinda pushing a political agenda too.
That claim is specifically trying to lead games to be certain type of things and is trying to combat other political agendas with that statement.

Personally I don't like seeing certain types of politics thrown in my entertainment but who am I to say they shouldn't do that?
I see Sarkeesian quite the same as those religious people who review movies based on how much there is nudity, cussing, violence etc and then warn people about them.
While I might not agree with them it's still another viewpoint to art and entertainment. I like these other points of views exist. And even if they might be 'wrong' most of the time, it doesn't mean there isn't some valid points in their arguments.

What comes to gamers, I kinda think gamers should sometimes grow a thicker skin too.
A lot of the enthusiasm within the gamergate thing comes off as people being too stuck on forming their identity based on their hobby. And I don't see it much different from other types of identity politics.

I like playing video games, so I think I'm a gamer myself. But if it's supposed to be anything more than that, then I guess I'm not.
You can be an enthusiast of something but if you let that form the core of your identity, I think you might have a problem.
 
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Games can have political agenda both in-game (see Bioware-games) or surrounding their development (see Tokyo Mirage Sessions).

Nothing I've explained is arbitrary. You have to see the difference between trans-characters existing in a game and trans-characters tell the player 'hey! I'm Laura and I'm trans!' Nobody complains about the former. The latter, however, is annoying, pushes an agenda, and on top of that is cringey because of the bad implementation.

Maybe you'll understand better if I give you a made-up example from the opposite direction (that never happens): if a neonazi made BotW, same game, I'd still greatly enjoy the game. If,however the game was filled with praise for totalitarian regimes, featured subtle/not-so-subtle anti-semitic paroles etc, I would hate that. Because I'd be constantly made aware of somebody's political agenda. And that's bad. Be it neonazis, be it diversity, be it the rise of living costs, etc..

I hope this made you understand. Otherwise I fear I don't have any more words left that could make it clearer.

I have yet to see a trans character that did not get certain people annoyed. I'm more inclined to believe that this is a matter of people taking issue with the type of person more than the quality of the character than a matter of trans characters being so very rarely done well. The Baldur's Gate character for instance. She is, realistically, not even a blip on the radar in the game, and her writing is not at all an issue. Unlike in Andromeda, she does not just give you her life story unprompted. Yet, more than a few people were upset by the mere presence of the character, where they become completely incensed with what they allege is social justice infecting games or something else silly.
 

Dunki

Member
She did video game criticism, not personal attacks.
Example: She called Ueda a sexist I would call this an personal attack. And she called many other as well. Again She was the one arguing infrot of the UN Women comitee that disagreeing with her on the Internet is Harassment.
 
Example: She called Ueda a sexist I would call this an personal attack. And she called many other as well. Again She was the one arguing infrot of the UN Women comitee that disagreeing with her on the Internet is Harassment.

1. Ueda is sexist, that's not a controversial statement. He has said a number of things that are super dodgy about women, and used sexist arguments to justify why, for instance, a woman could not be the lead of The Last Guardian (namely, that women lack upper-arm strength compared to men).

2. She did not argue that disagreeing with her was harassment.
 

Dunki

Member
1. You should read a Biology book because that is true. And if he wants to use more factual parts to make his world more believable than it is is right to do so. This is his reasoning and his reasoning was not wrong at all. So no please show me how Ueda is sexist. Facts proven by science are not sexist.

2. Yes she said exactly this. Sadly the whole meeting was deleted because it was so embarrassing for the UN. Just because a mass of people disagreed with her bullshit it is not harassment at all. Even if you tweet it to her.
 
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1. You should read a Biology book because that is true. And if he wants to use more factual parts to make his world more believable than it is is right to do so. This is his reasoning and his reasoning was not wrong at all. So no please show me how Ueda is sexist. Facts proven by science are not sexist.

2. Yes she said exactly this. Sadly the whole meeting was deleted because it was so embarrassing for the UN. Just because a mass of people disagreed with her bullshit it is not harassment at all. Even if you tweet it to her.

It is biological science, however that does not really apply to the games he makes because they're weird fantasy worlds where biological science doesn't dictate anything. Biological science indicates that almost every colosos battle is basically impossible. It's weird to bring in biological science for just this one thing.
 
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1. That argument does not hold water because what he did wasn't biologically sound either. A small boy cannot reasonably do a number of the things that the boy did in that game. Further, biology books will also tell you about ranges. There are, in fact, girls who can pull themselves up on their own. And since it's a fantasy video game, it is a little bit silly to say that it doesn't make sense for her to do that. If Ueda wants to be factual, then he can't just pick and choose. He has to be consistent, otherwise it's him using faulty logic to explain why he didn't use a girl (that isn't even consistently true, since people like, vary physically). If you believe that we should go on the average, then you too cannot argue that this is just some exceptional kid. Do you feel that the average small boy can do what was done in The Last Guardian?

2. THe whole meeting was deleted? I am going to cry foul on that, the notion that the video existed and only one copy of it existed as well. If you are going to claim that she said "exactly that," I would really love to see it. Because I have all too many times seen the follow-up to Anita Sarkeesian being accused of saying something or another being that the evidence doesn't wind up corroborating this.
 
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Dunki

Member
It is biological science, however that does not really apply to the games he makes because they're weird fantasy worlds where biological science doesn't dictate anything. Biological science indicates that almost every colosos battle is basically impossible. It's weird to bring in biological science for just this one thing.
If this is reasoning which is not wrong you can not say he is sexist just because you do not like it. You have no idea how the draws inspirations, how he works on his stories etc. So to say that he is sexist because you do not understand his though progress is an personal attack and most likely not even true.

AS for the fantasy example: How about the argumentation that women can not wear high heels in battle? Even in a fantasy world. Sounds similar right?
 
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It's about suspension of disbelief, as well as the framing. Not heels, but look at Quiet. Quiet's design isn't in a game full of designs that are as absurd as her outfit (for men and women specifically), so it clashes. Quiet's design isn't the issue, it's how it's done. Bayonetta wearing heels is okay because it makes sense for her character and for the world. You feel me? And finally, The Last Guardian featuring a young girl jumping around isn't an issue, at least no more than a young boy jumping around is.
 
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