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[BANGS]

No offense dude, but that's terrible advice that's completely divorced from the reality of the situation at hand. It doesn't matter if it's in public. Women have been stabbed, strangled, and shot on buses and subways. Just for saying no.

Ok... and again I ask what is the alternative? I don't see how saying "no" and walking away is unrealistic. It's easily the best option, especially in public. Leading the predator on and praying he just has a change of heart and leaves you alone is actually really stupid and divorced from reality by comparison...

 

[Dunki]

In terms of scientific studies? No, because I'm not sure how you would even measure something like that; there's no way to quantify a control group. But not a year goes by that I don't see at least 2-3 stories like that in the news. And I've already said that in most cases, saying "no" probably won't put a woman in danger. But I've also said that one psycho is all it takes, and we have no way of knowing who's going to blow up and who's not.

If you need some sort of reference, I'd like to direct you to Ouskaa's story about his sister. She didn't even give a hard "no." She was polite and said "no thank you" and still walked away crying and terrified over the man's reaction.

The point isn't that most men are dangerous; that is not the assertion is being made. The point that's being made is that women should be able to say no and can't just because there are enough men out there that deal in threats, physical intimidation, and in the worst case scenario, physical and sexual violence.

But this is the point You can not be scared because this happens like 1-2 times a year in the whole America. You are living some kind of I am sorry manipulated fear that you have to be scared of men. (Modern feminists do this all the time) I

Here in Germany right now thanks to immigration we hear each week a horror story about some muslim raping a women. Beaten up people, attacking people with weapons etc. Should we now be scared of Muslims in general?.

My point is that just because something can happen in very rare cases never means it will and you never should live like you could die every time you speak to a man. If I get told how dangerous men are day after day I also would believe this and be scared but I do not think this is the way to live your life.

I will also be honest here. It would me way more upset that being lied to whoever that is. Of course I would not threaten this person but I would also not talking to this person again until he/she maybe comes to me and said. Sorry this was the reason I lied. I also think a direct no would make it more clear and boys /men are often confused because they get no clear answers. I think it is better to do this for the sake of both.

 

[Autoignition]

Ok... and again I ask what is the alternative? I don't see how saying "no" and walking away is unrealistic. It's easily the best option, especially in public. Leading the predator on and praying he just has a change of heart and leaves you alone is actually really stupid and divorced from reality by comparison...

I would advise you to read previous posts in the thread before asking questions that have already been answered.

But this is the point You can not be scared because this happens like 1-2 times a year in the whole America. You are living some kind of I am sorry manipulated fear that you have to be scared of men. (Modern feminists do this all the time) I

Here in Germany right now hanks to immigration we hear each week a horror story about some muslim raping a women. Beaten up people, attacking people with weapons etc. Should we now be scared of Muslims in general?.

My point is that just because something can happen in very rare cases never means it will and you never should live like you could die every time you speak to a man. If I get told how dangerous men are day after day I also would believe this and be scared but I do not think this is the way to live your life.

Dunki, you literally replied to my first post in the thread in which I said this:

Most of us very much do live in fear of sexual assault, because even if we haven't been raped ourselves, we've had to listen to friends tell us that they've been. And that's fucking terrifying. I'm not trying to take anything away from male survivors, I know they're out there too, but the sheer prevalence of sexual assault against women is the reason why most women walk to their cars with their keys between their fingers, or carry around pepper spray/mace, or make sure that at least one of their best friends know where they are at all times.

And then we had a follow-up conversation, where you liked a post in which I said this:

I think it comes down to a matter of what a person can control vs what they can't. We can control the way that we interact with strangers -- we can be cautious and keep our distance and keep our eye out for strange or threatening behaviors, because that established level of trust isn't there yet. But when it comes to the people that we know and are already close with, protecting yourself is a lot harder because the very concept of it feels like a non-issue.

What is this sudden indignation and feigned ignorance on this matter? I've already explained this to you, and you accepted it the first time around. This is not the media brainwashing us. This is women talking to other women, sharing their own experiences, living out experiences on their own, and developing ways to protect themselves. Don't turn this into some rah rahing about media brainwashing; you're twisting and perverting the issue at hand.

 

[Dunki]

I would advise you to read previous posts in the thread before asking questions that have already been answered.



Dunki, you literally replied to my first post in the thread in which I said this:



And then we had a follow-up conversation, where you liked a post in which I said this:



What is this sudden indignation and feigned ignorance on this matter? I've already explained this to you, and you accepted it the first time around. This is not the media brainwashing us. This is women talking to other women, sharing their own experiences, living out experiences on their own, and developing ways to protect themselves. Don't turn this into some rah rahing about media brainwashing; you're twisting and perverting the issue at hand.

I just do not think that being scared of men is the right way. Protecting yourself.Hell yeah. I am a guy and I do not go out alone in the night in my city. And you also said that you had many experiences/friends did. So this is totally fine.


But I do not believe that this is the case here. Here you heard 2-3 stories a year in a whole country and reacting based on these reactions. I will never be a fan of lies or pretending. That is not how I was raised and probably this is my biggest personal flaw. That I am too honest since honesty can also hurt a lot of people. Sure assholes will be upset by an reaction but like 0.01% will hurt you for this IMO. That is why I want statistics.

 

[BANGS]

I would advise you to read previous posts in the thread before asking questions that have already been answered.

Nice dodge...

 

[Autoignition]

I just do not think that being scared of men is the right way. Protecting yourself.Hell yeah. I am a guy and I do not go out alone in the night in my city. And you also said that you had many experiences/friends did. So this is totally fine.

I would argue that most women are not afraid of men; we've just learned to be cautious around them in very specific situations. If a man comes up to me and asks me for directions so that he can get to where he's going, I respond to him much, much differently, with much more open warmth than I would to a man who asks me where I'm going.

But I do not believe that this is the case here. Here you heard 2-3 stories a year in a whole country and reacting based on these reactions. I will never be a fan of lies or pretending. That is not how I was raised and probably this is my biggest personal flaw. That I am too honest since honesty can also hurt a lot of people.

You asked me for official sources! You're the one who did that! And then you twisted it around and called it brainwashing. Women's reactions towards men actually have very little to do with "official sources" or news stories -- we rely on the words of other women, we rely on our own wisdom and experiences. All news stories do is reinforce that this is a nation-wide problem and not something that can be chalked up to a woman living in a bad area.

Nice dodge...

Don't get salty at me because you're the one who failed to read the thread before responding.

 

[Dunki]

I would argue that most women are not afraid of men; we've just learned to be cautious around them in very specific situations. If a man comes up to me and asks me for directions so that he can get to where he's going, I respond to him much, much differently, with much more open warmth than I would to a man who asks me where I'm going.



You asked me for official sources! You're the one who did that! And then you twisted it around and called it brainwashing. Women's reactions towards men actually have very little to do with "official sources" or news stories -- we rely on the words of other women, we rely on our own wisdom and experiences. All news stories do is reinforce that this is a nation-wide problem and not something that can be chalked up to a woman living in a bad area.



Don't get salty at me because you're the one who failed to read the thread before responding.

I call it brainwashing because I see it all the time On social media. Best example how #metoo was hijacked by these people. How they did treat this Anzis guy. Etc . And 2 or 3 stories in whole America only tell that it can happen not that this is a problem. Which is a big difference.

Also I have to look at this with a male perspective and I notice see how confused young men are these days. How they can not find their place in today’s society because no matter what they do they are doing it wrong.

You also said we need to communicate more with eachother which I totally agree with.

 

[BANGS]

Don't get salty at me because you're the one who failed to read the thread before responding.

I did read the thread as I've been participating for awhile. The question I asked was never answered...

 

[Dunki]

Also Autoignition One last thing:

How would you feel and react if you are being lied to by let us say giving out a wrong number? Would you believe it the next time? Or when it did happen a third time? Or would it make you more upset being lied to? Would you check the number before ending the talk with you etc? How would you think if the person you think to like or you want to know tries to be friendly to you and then suddendly: "I have to pee" and never come back? You expect boys/men to just shallow it. You expect them to think that it is totally ok for a women to lie because there is a 0.01% chance i could have killed her.

These conflicts in communication have always two sides and two sides acting/reacting the wrong way. I am jsut saying that being direct with a men is actually the best way. So what if he calls you a bith for a reaction? Why would you even care about the person you will never see again?

Cases like stalking often are created by sending the wrong signals by being too polite etc. These people think there is hope and even if this hope is 0.01%. Honestly I would crush their hope. And not in a vile manner like laughing etc. but in a direct NO. When he is byhimself. In groups that is a whole different matter because boys/men can be way more agressive in groups. We are primates afterall.

And no I am not mansplaining but rather I am talking to you to tell you my honest opinion about it telling you how I would react by also knowing how guys "function"

 

[Autoignition]

Also I have to look at this with a male perspective and I notice see how confused young men are these days. How they can not find their place in today’s society because no matter what they do they are doing it wrong.

Well that's all well and good, but this thread is about the female perspective and female experiences. You do not have the right to tell us that our experiences are wrong, brainwashed, misinformed, or invalid. Like I said, women talk to each other. Every woman has at least one friend who has been sexually assaulted or even raped. Just because it's not in the news doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You cannot point to the low number of reported news stories and use that to completely invalidate all of the other experiences that women have.

How would you feel and react if you are being lied to by let us say giving out a wrong number? Would you believe it the next time? Or when it did happen a third time? Or would it make you more upset being lied to? Would you check the number before ending the talk with you etc? How would you think if the person you think to like or you want to know tries to be friendly to you and then suddendly: "I have to pee" and never come back? You expect boys/men to just shallow it. You expect them to think that it is totally ok for a women to lie because there is a 0.01% chance i could have killed her.

If it happened to me, I would have a momentary bout of disappointment, think, "Well that sucks" and then move on with my life. And honestly, I'm more concerned with protecting the safety and welfare of a person than I am of very mildly hurting someone's feelings. Your .01% number, by the way, is based on those news stories. They are not reflective of the actual real experiences of women that never get reported or circulated in the public eye.

I did read the thread as I've been participating for awhile. The question I asked was never answered...

Men often like to ask, "if you're not interested in a guy who's chatting you up, why don't you just say you're not interested/tell him no/walk away?" This is exactly why. Women don't know when even a polite "no" will put us into a murder/rape scenario. Most of the time, it probably won't, but one psycho is all it takes, and we get chatted up so often that it's not worth playing Russian roulette like that.

I hope that helps.

 

[Dunki]

Well that's all well and good, but this thread is about the female perspective and female experiences. You do not have the right to tell us that our experiences are wrong, brainwashed, misinformed, or invalid. Like I said, women talk to each other. Every woman has at least one friend who has been sexually assaulted or even raped. Just because it's not in the news doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You cannot point to the low number of reported news stories and use that to completely invalidate all of the other experiences that women have.



If it happened to me, I would have a momentary bout of disappointment, think, "Well that sucks" and then move on with my life. And honestly, I'm more concerned with protecting the safety and welfare of a person than I am of very mildly hurting someone's feelings. Your .01% number, by the way, is based on those news stories. They are not reflective of the actual real experiences of women that never get reported or circulated in the public eye.





I hope that helps.

We have rape statistics. We do know that most of them happen with close friends and relatives. I think in these kind of discussions we need to look at numbers because what you actually feel and what are actual facts are different. And I am not talking about news stories. News stories always try to sensationalize things that happen I am talking about scientific research. And yes they do happen but you can not live your life based on fear because it maybe can or could not happen if you reject this guy now.

Yeah if it happens 3-4 times you would still think it just sucks to be lied to? And the 0.01 was to show how small the chance actually is. Upset sure and they are assholes for this but physically attacking you? I am sorry but I do not think this is a nationwide problem in our countries. But if you believe this i can not stop you. I just think it is not a good thing to lie and I will always stand by it.

 

[Autoignition]

We have rape statistics. We do know that most of them happen with close friends and relatives. I think in these kind of discussions we need to look at numbers because what you actually feel and what are actual facts are different. And I am not talking about news stories. News stories always try to sensationalize things that happen I am talking about scientific research. And yes they do happen but you can not live your life based on fear because it maybe can or could not happen if you reject this guy now.

Rape and sexual assault are not the same thing. Women get groped and grabbed all the time, even if they aren't actually penetrated. Rape is also not the same thing as physical intimidation, which is also terrifying and should not be accepted -- and it's what some men do engage in when they're told no. No woman should have to run out of a bus crying like Ouskaa's sister. In the grand scheme of things, was she fine? Did nothing actually really happen to her? Sure, but she shouldn't have gone through that; it's not right, and it's why women take steps to protect themselves when interacting with men in public.

This is a real thing that happens very often and is very common. The title of this thread is "What problems do you have as women that you wish men understood more?" I'm trying to make you understand, as a woman speaking to a man, what we have to navigate in our every day lives. Please listen to us when we speak.

Yeah if it happens 3-4 times you would still think it just sucks to be lied to? And the 0.01 was to show how small the chance actually is. Upset sure and they are assholes for this but physically attacking you? I am sorry but I do not think this is a nationwide problem in our countries. But if you believe this i can not stop you. I just think it is not a good thing to lie and I will always stand by it.

If this isn't a problem in Germany, then whatever. But you don't get to use your male German experiences to invalidate my experiences as an American woman.

But for what it's worth, I was being regularly stalked by three different men when I lived in Korea, and Korea is one of the safest countries in the world, so I do get the feeling that this is something that plagues most countries. If Korea has to deal with this, then I'm sure Germany does as well, and you're just not talking to enough women to know it.

 

[Osukaa]

Ok... and again I ask what is the alternative? I don't see how saying "no" and walking away is unrealistic. It's easily the best option, especially in public. Leading the predator on and praying he just has a change of heart and leaves you alone is actually really stupid and divorced from reality by comparison...

Dude its not that easy, I know what your trying to say but its just not. Some people are just crazy and saying no just gets them worked up. Alot of women don't want to take that risk of pissing off a guy who is bigger than they are, or they feel uncomfortable around. Even in public a person can say some pretty nasty things. My sister has used the restroom excuse or has a friend text her when she wants to get away from the guy. I'm not saying it happens all the time but the fact that women have to have that kind of plan in place is sad. I can't answer for all women as I just know what my sister tells me and my female friends who go through alot of the same situations. Plus if it has happened to them only once it traumatizes them and they are always going to be on edge if a guy wont leave them alone. Its not as easy as just having an off switch and trust that every guy is going to take it like a gentlemen.
There is no easy solution sadly other than just avoid talking to men but then why should you have to worry that if you give a smile or small talk or anything that the guys going to take it as flirting. Again we are not saying all guys are like that but I mean if a dog bites you when you pet it are you going to pet it again or are you going to try to just avoid petting it?

 

[Osukaa]

Rape and sexual assault are not the same thing. Women get groped and grabbed all the time, even if they aren't actually penetrated. Rape is also not the same thing as physical intimidation, which is also terrifying and should not be accepted -- and it's what some men do engage in when they're told no. No woman should have to run out of a bus crying like Ouskaa's sister. In the grand scheme of things, was she fine? Did nothing actually really happen to her? Sure, but she shouldn't have gone through that; it's not right, and it's why women take steps to protect themselves when interacting with men in public.

This is a real thing that happens very often and is very common. The title of this thread is "What problems do you have as women that you wish men understood more?" I'm trying to make you understand, as a woman speaking to a man, what we have to navigate in our every day lives. Please listen to us when we speak.



If this isn't a problem in Germany, then whatever. But you don't get to use your male German experiences to invalidate my experiences as an American woman.

But for what it's worth, I was being regularly stalked by three different men when I lived in Korea, and Korea is one of the safest countries in the world, so I do get the feeling that this is something that plagues most countries. If Korea has to deal with this, then I'm sure Germany does as well, and you're just not talking to enough women to know it.

Truth 100%
I know this has to happen in every country in the world. If people take the time and just ask women I know they will have a story to tell. With my sister yeah she was fine but she was seriously scared for her life and she has told me that she will never in her life ride on a bus just because shes afraid she will be alone at a stop again or if she runs into the guy again. I have alot of family that are female and many female friends so I know that this happens more than we think but they just cant announce it to the world every time they report an incident or have to avoid a guy who just don't get it.

 

[BANGS]

Dude its not that easy, I know what your trying to say but its just not. Some people are just crazy and saying no just gets them worked up. Alot of women don't want to take that risk of pissing off a guy who is bigger than they are, or they feel uncomfortable around. Even in public a person can say some pretty nasty things. My sister has used the restroom excuse or has a friend text her when she wants to get away from the guy. I'm not saying it happens all the time but the fact that women have to have that kind of plan in place is sad. I can't answer for all women as I just know what my sister tells me and my female friends who go through alot of the same situations. Plus if it has happened to them only once it traumatizes them and they are always going to be on edge if a guy wont leave them alone. Its not as easy as just having an off switch and trust that every guy is going to take it like a gentlemen.
There is no easy solution sadly other than just avoid talking to men but then why should you have to worry that if you give a smile or small talk or anything that the guys going to take it as flirting. Again we are not saying all guys are like that but I mean if a dog bites you when you pet it are you going to pet it again or are you going to try to just avoid petting it?

Of course it's not easy. Dealing with a predator is never easy. I never implied it would be...

I'm just saying what the best thing to do is. Usually the best thing to do is the hardest thing to do...

I hope that helps.

Not at all, that didn't even come close to answering "what is the better alternative?"

 

[Autoignition]

Not at all, that didn't even come close to answering "what is the better alternative?"

That's literally what I answered you the first time you asked. Slipping away without confrontation. That's the answer.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

lol this thread

GAF: Hey ladies, please tell us about the life issues you experience
Women of GAF: *carefully explaining things that have actually occurred to them or friends/family*
GAF: you're overreacting / I doubt that happened / you're doing it wrong -- here's what would really work

*sigh*

Thank you Autoignition for sharing your experiences, and for your patience while responding.

 

[Autoignition]

lol this thread

GAF: Hey ladies, please tell us about the life issues you experience
Women of GAF: *carefully explaining things that have actually occurred to them or friends/family*
GAF: you're overreacting / I doubt that happened / you're doing it wrong -- here's what would really work

*sigh*

Thank you Autoignition for sharing your experiences, and for your patience while responding.

I wish I could say I was surprised, but this is how most conversations on this topic normally go, sadly enough.

Women: Men don't listen to us when we talk.
Men: We're listening now, I promise! Talk to us.
Women: Well, as women, we've learned to politely lie to strange men because we've been stalked, harassed, threatened, and assaulted. So we avoid confrontation now and ghost on men when we feel unsafe instead of risking our personal safety.
Men: But how do you think that makes us feel? You're being completely unreasonable! Do you have any official sources to prove that this is even happening?
Women: Well, I really don't agree that that's an unreasonable response, but I guess I have a couple of news articles? Not many, though, because a lot of this stuff doesn't really get reported because it's so commonplace and --
Men: I knew it! You've been brainwashed by the media narrative to fear men.
Women: No, no, women talk to each other and share our experiences and have plenty of our own that we draw from and --
Men: You've conditioned yourself to live your life in fear for no rational reason at all and you're hurting men as a result. I hope you're happy with yourselves.
Women: ... So, anyway, men don't listen to us when we talk.

Yep. Every time. Like clockwork.

 

[GravityKitten]

Very lighthearted one but I'd say clothes shopping. Stereotypical reason but clothes shopping is fun and a stress reliever for a lot of girls, because we have way more fashion choices and styles and choices and all that over men. I think some guys get that but it can be hard to appreciate because most guys (def not all) seem to not enjoy it anywhere near as much.

The big thing I don't think men get is how hard shopping for women's clothing can be. Walking into a store is like walking into a random apartment during a zombie breakout looking for supplies. You have no idea what you're going to find, it could be amazing stuff, it could be a big bust. I've been clothes shopping with guys and it can break down into very simple ideas, like "I need a red shirt" or "I need a nice pair of jeans". And you can walk into almost anywhere, and find a red shirt, or a nice pair of jeans.

I wish all men had to dress in women's clothing for a month and go shopping for that clothing to really understand how it works on our side. There is no "red shirt" for the most part, because this top may be cut one way, or that one might have extra decoration on the sleeves, or whatever. Even a basic t-shirt isn't always basic. The nice part is that there's so much diversity and choice but that then means one singular item can be created in hundreds of different ways and colors. Clothes shopping as a girl is less about going out specifically looking for something but instead hoping you find something good, and doing so can take hours sometimes depending on how you luck out. And then when you find something cute, every brand's sizing can be different, and the way clothes fit can vary so widely that it can be soul crushing when something you were sure was going to look good ends up looking terrible on you.

Plus if you've got a girlfriend/wife/whatever that likes to look good, remember that she's doing it in part for your sake!

 

[Osukaa]

Very lighthearted one but I'd say clothes shopping. Stereotypical reason but clothes shopping is fun and a stress reliever for a lot of girls, because we have way more fashion choices and styles and choices and all that over men. I think some guys get that but it can be hard to appreciate because most guys (def not all) seem to not enjoy it anywhere near as much.

The big thing I don't think men get is how hard shopping for women's clothing can be. Walking into a store is like walking into a random apartment during a zombie breakout looking for supplies. You have no idea what you're going to find, it could be amazing stuff, it could be a big bust. I've been clothes shopping with guys and it can break down into very simple ideas, like "I need a red shirt" or "I need a nice pair of jeans". And you can walk into almost anywhere, and find a red shirt, or a nice pair of jeans.

I wish all men had to dress in women's clothing for a month and go shopping for that clothing to really understand how it works on our side. There is no "red shirt" for the most part, because this top may be cut one way, or that one might have extra decoration on the sleeves, or whatever. Even a basic t-shirt isn't always basic. The nice part is that there's so much diversity and choice but that then means one singular item can be created in hundreds of different ways and colors. Clothes shopping as a girl is less about going out specifically looking for something but instead hoping you find something good, and doing so can take hours sometimes depending on how you luck out. And then when you find something cute, every brand's sizing can be different, and the way clothes fit can vary so widely that it can be soul crushing when something you were sure was going to look good ends up looking terrible on you.

Plus if you've got a girlfriend/wife/whatever that likes to look good, remember that she's doing it in part for your sake!

Omg lol soooo true. The way you worded it is perfect haha. I've learned that if you go clothes shopping with a woman you should be prepared to spend a chunk of time lol even some guys take long as well of course not everyone is the exact same but it is funny. I always make sure there's something else I can do or go to another store that interests me if I go shopping with some female friends. I usually say just text me when you're done and we will meet up when you're finished. I'm more of a just buy it and try it on when you get home. Even on the rare occasion I try on clothes in a dressing room I try to hurry to make sure the person isn't waiting for me. I'm just like ok the zipper works and it fits good enough .

 

[BANGS]

Women of GAF: *carefully explaining things that have actually occurred to them or friends/family*
GAF: you're doing it wrong -- here's what would really work

We're not supposed to give advice when presented with a problem? Especially when those problems are caused by men and as men we may have some insight into the subject?
This isn't a problem with men not listening, it's with those not willing to accept change...

 

[Ragnaroz]

We're not supposed to give advice when presented with a problem? Especially when those problems are caused by men and as men we may have some insight into the subject?
This isn't a problem with men not listening, it's with those not willing to accept change...

Dude, stop it. The advice you are giving is just not realistic. I have talked about these things with my friends and my past girlfriends and every single one of them has experienced similar scenarios. And some who tried saying "no" only to end up in scary situations. I don't want any woman to ever fear me because there's nothing to fear, but if it makes them safer in the long run, it's fine.

 

[Vicetrailia]

We're not supposed to give advice when presented with a problem? Especially when those problems are caused by men and as men we may have some insight into the subject?
This isn't a problem with men not listening, it's with those not willing to accept change...

You're coming from the premise of leading on causing more harm, or that if men get used to "no's" from everyone woman it'll be fine, but you need to think about safety and survival.

Women try to negate the negative impact of rejection, because men are known to lash out at outright rejection. Women have died outright rejecting men, go read about Janese Talton-Jackson. Death is severe, but who wants to get randomly coerced or verbally assaulted as well?

How each individual responds and when isn't something that one can control. There's no magic bullet or guarantees, but there is experience. However the method, women are just looking after themselves.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

We're not supposed to give advice when presented with a problem? Especially when those problems are caused by men and as men we may have some insight into the subject?

Correct. In this case, the more appropriate response is to just listen, and offer support. Ask how we can help, not dictate about what we as men think would help.

If asked: "what would you do in this situation?" then of course you can be honest and offer advice. But the thread title is: "What problems do you have as women that you wish men understood more?". So our primary focus should be to seek to understand.

 

[Ragnaroz]

Correct. In this case, the more appropriate response is to just listen, and offer support. Ask how we can help, not dictate about what we as men think would help.

If asked: "what would you do in this situation?" then of course you can be honest and offer advice. But the thread title is: "What problems do you have as women that you wish men understood more?". So our primary focus should be to seek to understand.

I think that's a point where we men clash with women very often. When presented with a problem, the first instinct for men is to try and find a solution to said problem and that's why we fail to understand that sometime we just need to shut up and listen.

 

[BANGS]

You're coming from the premise of leading on causing more harm, but you need to think about safety and survival.

Yeah that's what I'm talking about. Leading predators on can only jeopardize your safety and survival further. A proper resistance and/or a quick escape are always the best options for dealing with a predator right from the start. Anything less is just giving them more of an opening...

Correct. In this case, the more appropriate response is to just listen, and offer support. Ask how we can help, not dictate about what we as men think would help.

In this case, we can't help. We are not the predators. The only way we can offer help and support is by offering advice on how to deal with men. It's very egotistical and just plain stupid to expect me to care about your problems when you won't listen to my advice on how to prevent/solve them. Why would one even want to discuss such problems if they had no intention of solving them? Just for attention?

You are certainly allowed to critique my advice or outright ignore it, but pretending I don't have the right to give it in such a topic is just awful. But I will be the bigger man and walk away as it seems I stirred the pot a bit here. Good luck with the rest of the topic...

 

[Blam]

Correct. In this case, the more appropriate response is to just listen, and offer support. Ask how we can help, not dictate about what we as men think would help.

Yes please this is solid advise for a lot of situations not just now. Autoignition yeah sorry you and your friend have to consistently go through that everywhere you go. I know how you feel. Having been sexually harassed many times in school. I've come to expect it from a large majority of men.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

The only way we can offer help and support is by offering advice on how to deal with men.

I’ll let the women in the thread decide if they agree with this or not. I can think of several ways to support the women in my life without offering unsolicited advice.

It's very egotistical and just plain stupid to expect me to care about your problems when you won't listen to my advice on how to prevent/solve them.

What’s egotistical is that you think they expect you, BANGS, to care. That they want/need you to. The thread is literally asking for women to share their stories. You’re acting like the OP is a woman begging for advice.

Why would one even want to discuss such problems if they had no intention of solving them? Just for attention?

To share. To inform. To let others know they might not be alone. Because the OP literally asked.

but pretending I don't have the right to give it in such a topic is just awful.

I never said you didn’t have the right to offer advice. You’re free to say what you’d like. Just don’t be surprised if it isn’t received well.

 

[RokkanStoned]

There's a problem with men not realizing why women do not want to fuck them. They have the inability to realize that the problem lies within them and not women. They will then blame women for their inability to get laid, instead of blaming themselves.

It would be like blaming an employer for not hiring you when you submit a resume full of typos.

Most women do not self delude and know exactly what makes them unattractive to men.

Sorry, but this is too generalized, unless meant as a generalized advice. If the inability to succeed is on the individual, then that principle would have to be practiced in regards to everything and everyone. I have no problem with that approached if it's followed (even if it's not completely true, it's a good attitude to have), but even then it becomes pretty obvious that unless you think a person is malleable to the extreme or that all women are shallow enough to desire the same traits, that the real problem is beyond that kind of control. A person seeking meaning is all about expectation, a person seeking the impossible ideal, would certainly be faced with a rejection of all - and is that the blame of overexpectation or the world? Should the world be responsible for not living up to what we seek? I realize I went a bit far in the reflection on the topic, but it's an interesting topic. Generally men are disfavored due to being relegated as the hunter, meaning that the pressure to act and succeed is on them. That's the societal barrier, but you also have biological factors as well that skews how men and women relate to each other.

In regards to "most women do not self delude", I'd reeeeeallly want to see the receipts for that. That seems to be using anecdotal experience or stereotypes to work. Most women I know self-delude all the time, should that mean that most women self-delude?

I do agree with you that a little more work, less pride and a pinch of disregard or braveness would do most people good in approaching their goals. But there are always barriers that you won't overcome, just like an athlete doing the high jumps will be limited in how high they can go. In terms of getting a relationship above your pay grade in a generalized manner, having money and status is a big thing, while also being clean, trying to be the most attractive version of yourself and dressing nice, being able to be positive and bring fun to people, take charge in a conversation and also know when to pull back and listen and compliment people. That doesn't guarantee anything, but it'll help most people, though there's a biological factors, in terms of physical attraction that'll always be hard to do that much about, except perhaps by cosmetic surgery.

 

[Autoignition]

Yeah that's what I'm talking about. Leading predators on can only jeopardize your safety and survival further. A proper resistance and/or a quick escape are always the best options for dealing with a predator right from the start. Anything less is just giving them more of an opening...

Dude, you're just not listening. Several women in here have told you exactly what has happened when we've given hard "no"s like you're telling us to do. It puts us into danger if the man is actually predatory. So, what exactly are you trying to tell us? That we didn't say no right? Try it again, do it better? Are our experiences so invalid to you that you really think that you know better without having done it yourself?

How about we just stick with what actually works so that we can actually protect ourselves? Men can deal with a few hurt feelings -- and while we're on the topic, I wish that men would stop acting like women never get rejected in shitty ways, too. Rejection doesn't discriminate on sex, age, gender, or orientation, and everyone's been turned down in heartbreaking ways. It's just a part of life.

And if you want to take anything at all away from this thread, how about this: if you get ghosted on by a woman in public, instead of getting angry and morose over being rejected, maybe ask yourself why she felt so threatened by you that she felt the need to slip away from you before you noticed?

 

[Blam]

Dude, you're just not listening. Several women in here have told you exactly what has happened when we've given hard "no"s like you're telling us to do. It puts is into danger if the man is actually predatory. So, what exactly are you trying to tell us? That we didn't say no right? Try it again, do it better? Are our experiences so invalid to you that you really think that you know better without having done it yourself?

How about we just stick with what actually works so that we can actually protect ourselves? Men can deal with a few hurt feelings -- and while we're on the topic, I wish that men would stop acting like women never get rejected in shitty ways, too. Rejection doesn't discriminate on sex, age, gender, or orientation, and everyone's been turned down in heartbreaking ways. It's just a part of life.

And if you want to take anything at all away from this thread, how about this: if you get ghosted on by a woman in public, instead of getting angry and morose over being rejected, maybe ask yourself why she felt so threatened by you that she felt the need to slip away from you before you noticed?

I mean yeah really. Some guys either won't get the message if it's direct and are probably in their head like "haha they are probably playing hard to get or something" and some just don't care. Others are just absolutely idiots and don't get it. I honestly carry pepper spray where ever I am since it happens that often.

Yes everyone gets rejected, there's really nothing more to be said on this. Both being ghosted on both sides of the equation sure less on the male side but still does happen there as well.

 

[TrainedRage]

lol this thread

GAF: Hey ladies, please tell us about the life issues you experience
Women of GAF: *carefully explaining things that have actually occurred to them or friends/family*
GAF: you're overreacting / I doubt that happened / you're doing it wrong -- here's what would really work

*sigh*

Thank you Autoignition for sharing your experiences, and for your patience while responding.

EDITED BY MR. GRUMPY

 

[Autoignition]

EDITED BY MR. GRUMPY

Why is it that you automatically assume that any man who gives consideration to a woman's feelings and validates her experiences is out to fuck her?

I appreciate Ender's contributions to this thread, and I wish men would talk to each other about this kind of stuff more often.

 

[Blam]

EDITED BY MR. GRUMPY

Uh I don't think they were hitting on auto? You're assuming too much man.

 

[TrainedRage]

Why is it that you automatically assume that any man who gives consideration to a woman's feelings and validates her experiences is out to fuck her?

I appreciate Ender's contributions to this thread, and I wish men would talk to each other about this kind of stuff more often.

Its pretty obvious what he is doing....

EDITED BY MR. GRUMPY

I assume this for the same reason you assume every guy giving you a 'cat call' wants to fuck you. We can both make assumptions! Now that's equality!

 

[Blam]

Its pretty obvious what he is doing....
I assume this for the same reason you assume every guy giving you a 'cat call' wants to fuck you. We can both make assumptions! Now that's equality!

This is a joke right?!? Are you being serious right now? What else is the point of a cat call it's sexual suggestive in it's nature.

I truly don't believe you actually think this way, your mindset is legitimately repulsive if this is what you think is okay.

 

[Autoignition]

Its pretty obvious what he is doing....

I assume this for the same reason you assume every guy giving you a 'cat call' wants to fuck you. We can both make assumptions! Now that's equality!

Your mindset is disgusting. Men can be nice to women and validate their experiences as real human experiences without it being romantically or sexually motivated. Men and women can be friends with no ulterior motives attached. And the fact that you think that they can't says more about you than it does about him.

A man cannot shout "HEY BABY NICE ASS" out the window of his car at me without it being sexually motivated and predatory. Your analogy is terrible and your conflation of these two events is horrific.

 

[TrainedRage]

Your mindset is disgusting. Men can be nice to women and validate their experiences as real human experiences without it being romantically or sexually motivated. Men and women can be friends with no ulterior motives attached. And the fact that you think that they can't says more about you than it does about him.

A man cannot shout "HEY BABY NICE ASS" out the window of his car at me without it being sexually motivated and predatory. Your analogy is terrible and your conflation of these two events is horrific.

What if that man who yells 'HEY BABY NICE ASS" at you thinks you are ugly and just wants to throw shade at you? Or what if he was making a joke because his friends dared him to 'say something to that girl'? Nah he clearly JUST wants to fuck you and be a predator. No other possible reason, right?

 

[Autoignition]

What if that man who yells 'HEY BABY NICE ASS" at you thinks you are ugly and just wants to throw shade at you? Or what if he was making a joke because his friends dared him to 'say something to that girl'? Nah he clearly JUST wants to fuck you and be a predator. No other possible reason, right?

Are you trying to make a point here? It's still sexually motivated and predatory. "Make fun of how much you don't want to fuck her" is still a sexually motivated action, even if it's not a sex-positive action. And regardless of the events that led to the catcalling, it's intentional harassment, which is automatically predatory by default.

 

[TrainedRage]

Are you trying to make a point here? It's still sexually motivated and predatory. "Make fun of how much you don't want to fuck her" is still a sexually motivated action, even if it's not a sex-positive action. And regardless of the events that led to the catcalling, it's intentional harassment, which is automatically predatory by default.

EDITED BY MR. GRUMPY

 

[Autoignition]

EDITED BY MR. GRUMPY

Break it down for me then, homie. How, exactly, is an action taken with sex still in mind ("not wanting to fuck" is still a thought intrinsically tied to the idea of sex -- you had to consider sex in the first place for you to even determine that you don't want to sleep with them) not sexually motivated?

How is intentional harassment not predatory? What is the point of harassing someone if you do not mean to intimidate or demean them?

Show your work.

 

[Blam]

What if that man who yells 'HEY BABY NICE ASS" at you thinks you are ugly and just wants to throw shade at you? Or what if he was making a joke because his friends dared him to 'say something to that girl'? Nah he clearly JUST wants to fuck you and be a predator. No other possible reason, right?

But are any of these other reasons good reasons to cat call someone, because they really aren't. You still have to make an effort to go after someone under any of those reasons. That's predatory. Harassing someone isn't really a good excuse, and jokingly harassing someone isn't either.

 

[Osukaa]

But are any of these other reasons good reasons to cat call someone, because they really aren't.

Personally to me cat calling is disgusting. Even more disgusting if you do it just to spite a woman. WTF is wrong with you that you need to do it to put someone down or make them feel uncomfortable. The same goes for both sexes but lets not pretend that women and men cat call equally. The women here are taking time to respond and put it into perspective how they feel and what they go through. Why argue with them? Do you know the secret to a womans brain that makes you an expert on being a woman more than a woman herself? To the GAF ladies, alot of us appreciate your replies and I hope that those that argue otherwise at least come out of this thread questioning some of their thoughts.

 

[TrainedRage]

Break it down for me then, homie. How, exactly, is an action taken with sex still in mind ("not wanting to fuck" is still a thought intrinsically tied to the idea of sex -- you had to consider sex in the first place for you to even determine that you don't want to sleep with them) not sexually motivated?

How is intentional harassment not predatory? What is the point of harassing someone if you do not mean to intimidate or demean them?

Show your work.

You know that they took the action only because they 'had sex in mind'? You are assuming to know what every guy has on their mind when they talk to you? So only when men are being NICE to you they are not sexualy motivated? You are just arbitrarily picking and choosing.

Your mindset is disgusting. Men can be nice to women and validate their experiences as real human experiences without it being romantically or sexually motivated. Men and women can be friends with no ulterior motives attached. And the fact that you think that they can't says more about you than it does about him.

A man cannot shout "HEY BABY NICE ASS" out the window of his car at me without it being sexually motivated and predatory. Your analogy is terrible and your conflation of these two events is horrific.

CLEARLY 404Ender didn't want to have sex with you and was IN NO WAY sexually motivated by his response. But that guy who yelled at you was SUPER sexually frustrated and JUST wanted to fuck you.


Did I get that right?

 

[Autoignition]

You know that they took the action only because they 'had sex in mind'? You are assuming to know what every guy has on their mind when they talk to you? So only when men are being NICE to you they are not sexualy motivated? You are just arbitrarily picking and choosing.

I'm going off of the example that you gave me. If you want me to change my mind about it being sexually motivated and predatory, maybe you should give me examples that aren't still, you know, sexually motivated and predatory.

that guy who yelled at you was SUPER sexually frustrated and JUST wanted to fuck you.

I never said that. You did.

 

[TrainedRage]

I'm going off of the example that you gave me. If you want me to change my mind about it being sexually motivated and predatory, maybe you should give me examples that aren't still, you know, sexually motivated and predatory.



I never said that. You did.

Your mindset is disgusting. Men can be nice to women and validate their experiences as real human experiences without it being romantically or sexually motivated. Men and women can be friends with no ulterior motives attached. And the fact that you think that they can't says more about you than it does about him.

A man cannot shout "HEY BABY NICE ASS" out the window of his car at me without it being sexually motivated and predatory. Your analogy is terrible and your conflation of these two events is horrific.

kinda sounds like that is what you said, or maybe I was just assuming something that I was wrong about.

 

[Autoignition]

kinda sounds like that is what you said, or maybe I was just assuming something that I was wrong about.

Something being "sexually motivated" is not a 1:1 translation to "they want to fuck me." I broke down exactly how above.

Feel free to try again, though.

 

[Blam]

Personally to me cat calling is disgusting. Even more disgusting if you do it just to spite a woman. WTF is wrong with you that you need to do it to put someone down or make them feel uncomfortable. The same goes for both sexes but lets not pretend that women and men cat call equally. The women here are taking time to respond and put it into perspective how they feel and what they go through. Why argue with them? Do you know the secret to a womans brain that makes you an expert on being a woman more than a woman herself? To the GAF ladies, alot of us appreciate your replies and I hope that those that argue otherwise at least come out of this thread questioning some of their thoughts.

Yes it's really disgusting since it's showing that they are not worth your time but just a measly shout out of some stupid sexual shit. It demeans women and men that it happens to, and frankly on the same point as physically assaulting someone in my books. You're assaulting them with words, and nearly all the time their in a position of advantage so there's no way for recourse from the men/women in the situation.

 

[Deleted member 12837]

EDITED BY MR. GRUMPY

Ok you got me. My plan was to leave my wife and go after one of the women in this thread on this anonymous message board. Foiled again!

Pretty sure “accusing a guy of White Knighting” got me a Bingo though for this thread, so hey that’s nice!

 

[GravityKitten]

We're not supposed to give advice when presented with a problem? Especially when those problems are caused by men and as men we may have some insight into the subject?
This isn't a problem with men not listening, it's with those not willing to accept change...

I actually do feel a bit bad for guys in regards to this situation because I do know that they're often really trying to help. From my experience guys tend to be "doers" so when a problem arises their first thought is that they want to fix it. That's especially the case if a woman in their life is having a problem because obviously most decent guys don't want to see women they care about suffering through a situation they think can or should be fixed.

I think that's how men are and it's coming from a position or actually caring. Of course some guys just want to be right or whatever but I feel a majority of guys are doing it for heartfelt reasons.

But it's just that women aren't wired that way and this is probably something we'll always crash on. Maybe I've just been in stereotypical relationships or known stereotypical guys but while they definitely do have times when they just want to talk, I think usually if they want to discuss a situation with someone it's because they're trying to work out the right course of action. They want to bounce ideas off of the other person and see if their thoughts on how to fix things make sense or if they're on the wrong track.

The thing is I (and I think most girls) will directly ask when we want help or answers. You'll know when we're looking to you for that. A lot of times though we just want to vent and have someone listen and have someone agree with us and commiserate with us. So it's not that we don't appreciate men trying to help but that's not what we want in that moment, and we're not wrong to feel that way. Men and women are just different and that's part of the fun but sometimes it can be like trying to stick two magnets together when they're ends are matching. Maybe men feel like we'll think they're useless if they can't provide an answer to our problems but that's not the case at all. And yeah maybe sometimes listening to us bitch is boring but you know we put up with other things for you too lol.

In the end my believe is that nobody is "wrong" just different but that can frustrate or annoy both people involved. Really though guys just shut up and listen. If you do that we get it out of our systems and move on much quicker while also being happier with you. But I know that when you don't do that and try to tell us what we should be doing it really does come from a sincere place.