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Native 4K at 30 FPS requires a 7.4 TFLOPS GPU – AMD Developer
- Thread starter Shin
- Start date
Leonidas
Member
Almost isn't good enough. Both base current gen consoles were designed with 1080p in mind so the majority of base console games this gen ended up being 1080p with some falling a bit short of that.
Shin
Banned
You bring up an interesting point, IIRC XBOX is based of RX 580 which is a re-branded RX 480, while the latter has 36CU's XBOX has 44 (36+8), with 4 disabled.
https://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/2977/xbox-one-x-gpu and https://www.amd.com/en/products/graphics/radeon-rx-580
So yeah I guess they could add compute units if Navi is not powerful enough, though I don't reckon Sony would want to front such a bill.
Having more then disabling would be cheaper, but if Navi isn't as hot shit then they might not have a choice, more CU's and lower memory clock speed would give similar results as my previous post.
PM a mod orEviLore . I feel you would make quality OPs.
I'm good I don't really post here much nowadays anyway so it don't really make a difference.
Personally I think if price is a concern we see yields like so:
64cus with 56 active at minimum for yields and clocked as low as 1400 giving a minimum Tflop rating of 10Tflops.
I think it could scale anywhere from 56 to 64 active cus and 1400-1500mhz.
Basically 10-12Tflops is pretty much a guarantee.
Leonidas
Member
PS4 Pro, RX 480 and RX 580 all share 36 CUs. PS4 Pro being fairly under-clocked from 480, RX 580 being overclocked.
Xbox One X is the only one with 40 CUs, there is no current gen Radeon GPU on desktop with 40 CUs.
Saying Xbox One X is based off RX 580 is like saying PS4 Pro is based off an RX 470.
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Leonidas
Member
I'm already preparing myself for disappointment next-gen
True, still it's 36 enabled, same as RX 480/580.
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I'm already preparing myself for disappointment next-gen
True, still it's 36 enabled, same as RX 480/580.
What is there to be disappointed about? Even at 10Tflops it would be greater than the jump from 360 to XBO. The XBO leap should be even larger than the jump from PS3 to PS4. Overall the leap in raw power for the entire generation should be greater than that leap from the previous to the current.
Leonidas
Member
I'm coming from Pro, X and PC. Next-gen consoles might not offer me any jump if I upgrade my desktop GPU in a few years.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Not to mention the bassline game specific to that console will be 10-12TF at their disposal, with a much, much healthier CPU in Zen/memory bandwidth.
Where as, right now the baseline is still 1.3TF and 1.84TF, with mid-gen refreshes just used mainly for brute forced features more often than not.
Look what Santa Monica as well as Guerilla just produced on 1.84TF (and what is coming down the pipe with the big 4). Now picture that with 10-12TF and 3-4x CPU power with much more memory bandwidth for the PS5's software baseline.
It's going to be a pretty noticeable jump, especially when it comes to physics and how things will be lit/shadows, etc..
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Fair enough, but we could be talking anywhere from 25Tflops-50Tflops for a mid-gen refresh. At that point I’d wait until the next gen because at that point the next gen Tflops would be wholly irrelevant.
Leonidas
Member
That's 1.84 Tflops designed for 1080p screens.
Now imagine going from 1080p to checkerboard 4K. That cuts the GPU power in half already, already looking at a smaller jump than any gen. Native 4K cuts the GPU power in half again, down to only 30%-60% over base compared to its native resolution, we're approaching same gen territory at that point.
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Kenpachii
Member
Don't think so, a lot of stuff already is scaled down and not remotely running on ultra what PC for example projects. Then on top of it they would want to focus on 4k which with ps4 already requires you 7,4tflop on the same settings to push forwards which isn't even gainable even on the xbox x, up those settings like draw distance with shadow detail etc and 12 tflop gpu suddently isn't much anymore if any.
Add with it 60 fps and the tflops go through the roof. There is a reason why even a 13-14 tflop gpu isn't pushing rock solid 60 in high settings 4k ps4 ports.
What cpu does or does not do isn't much of a interest here, GPU is going to be the limiting factor next generation. I wouldn't be shocked if games directly out of gate would run already at heavily dynamic resolutions and sub 30 fps.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It will still have a fidelity leap greater when using checkerboard techniques than 900p or 1080p we have now. Also having a greater jump in CPU as well as memory bandwidth for the framerate should be added to the equation to free up some of the GPGPU tasks, and not the anemic netbook CPUs even the Pro/X suffer from.
Leonidas
Member
What about native 4K?
The Pro/X aren't suffering from those CPUs, those CPUs are an improvement over the 2013 machines. The Pro does seem to be suffering from other bottlenecks though since a lot of the games aren't rendering at anywhere near the resolution you'd expect given the GPU differences. But that's beside the point.
Azurro
Banned
Oh god, that's not how any of this works. This is just so wrong, developers are not taking the graphics settings of Xbox One games and cranking the resolution up, which is the only scenario where your claim could be true, which is wrong because Xbox One X games usually have even higher settings than PS4 and even PS4 Pro games in terms of LOD, shadows, etc.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Native 4K with much better frame rates than we have now due to the better CPUs in Zen will still be achievable, with what I believe improved fidelity over things built on a baseline of what we have now. They will just be able to do far more as a baseline with improved checkerboard rendering techniques. Remember the memory bandwidth to feed everything is going to be much larger, as well as improved rendering techniques and SDK optimizations.
But with anything you're going to be hard-pressed even in the PC realm to get a $400 box pushing 4K/60 at double or triple the graphics fidelity that we have today via assets (lighting, physics, etc.).
Believe me those machines are suffering from the CPU that they have now ( Phil Spencer even admitted this at E3). There's plenty more they could be pushing as far as crowd densities enemy densities and the like. You're still seeing inconsistent frame rates on both the Pro in the X due to the CPUs.
It's impressive what they get out of it, yes, but a lot of sacrifices are made due to them.
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It can & so can PS4 Pro but the point of them is to run Xbox One/PS4 games at or above the visual level that they run on Xbox One /PS4
Leonidas
Member
Yes, Xbox One X was designed to run games at 4x higher res and higher detail, I stated that already ITT. But there is at least one case I can point to where they simply did take an Xbox One game and render at higher resolution leaving the PS4 Pro version with higher detail.
They're suffering less than the 2013 machines were so to me it's a non-issue... both mid-gen refreshes did what they set out to do.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I can agree there, however they are suffering when paired up to a GPU that can run circles around with what the CPU is allowed to put out.
All I'm saying is don't base everything on just the GPU for next-gen, the memory bandwidth and the CPU will have every bit, if not more of an impact overall than just teraflops.
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That’s actually literally what they did though. They literally said this:
They took Xbox One Forza Horizon 4 and put it on XBx as is.
They had 75% of their gpu cycles extra.
They pushed it to 4K and had 25% of their GPU cycles left over.
They used the rest to make it prettier.
They took a game running on. 1.3 Tflop console. And pushed it to 4K.
Our nice round 4x estimate would guess that they would need 5.2 Tflops of the XBX to run the same exact unaltered game in 4K.
That’s pretty close to the MS devs 4.65 Tflops actually got it to run at. But that’s the point it’s an estimate and general guideline.
The point is a general same game graphically but 4x Tfrlops for 4K is a good general guideline.
XBO base =. 1.3 Tflops
same game in 4K 5.2TFlops
XBX =. 6.2 Tflops
PS4= 1.85 TFlops
PS4 P= 4.2 Tflops
4K game = 7.5 Tflops
The point is the rendering budget would essentially increase the necessary power by 4x whatever you were originally rendering.
To tell the truth I don't think the Flop number is going to be that important next gen like if it's 12TF it's not going to be like Xbox One X times 2 it will be advances in hardware that will let them make games that look & run a lot better than what we have on PS4 & Xbox One right now.
TLZ
Banned
Ok. But i was thinking regardless of price point, based on OP, what would next gen systems needs to hit native 4k with advanced visuals, ai etc. Sounded like it needed a lot more and made me imagine something closer to 20.
Would these be enough though? Can they act like shortcuts?
The thing is why do you need native 4K?
They can do native 4K right now if they wanted to with PS1 level graphics. At a certain point there are diminishing returns and trades offs.
For instance they could indefinitely increase the resolution.
Or increase the polygon count.
Or increase the FPS to 120fps and beyond.
These are just numbers so the point in designing a game is to get to a point where whatever you are trying to do is “good enough” so that you can allocate your resource budget elsewhere.
If you want a console that’s 15-20Tflops and does 4K natively you’re probably looking at a console that $1000 and effectively maybe only 4-5x visual effects improvement if you want to make a native 4K requirement.
Leonidas
Member
X and Pro are only suffering if you are thinking of them as next-gen machines.
I hope the next-gen CPUs bring a lot new to the table, but every gen has seen huge advances in CPUs and going back all the way to the original Xbox single Core Pentium I don't know if the CPU has ever made all that much of a difference to me.
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Tarkus98
Member
The thing is, I don’t believe you can just throw a teraflop number out there and call it a day for next gen systems. It’s certainly a good jump off point but it’s never the only way things happen with next gen systems.
With new consoles we get new gpus, new cpus, next gen memory, increased bandwidth and so on. Most importantly though is the newer tech included in the silicon like increased ROPS, new lighting techniques, better shaders, etc. Then you have the custom work that Sony and Microsoft put into the chips. It’s this complete package that always makes new consoles more then the sum of its parts and gives developers completely new tools to work with.
I think there is a lot to look forward to next gen.
All that has nothing to do with the raw rendering target. It’s just straight mathematics. In order to generate 4x the pixels per seconds you need 4x the number of operations. That’s really all it is.
It’s better to think of this in reverse.
Whatever you are rendering at 4K requires 4x the operations than rendering at 1080P natively. There isn’t really a way around that.
Hopefully this gives you a visual idea of the magnitude of the power increase before we even get into the discussion of visual effects increases.
TLZ
Banned
Oof. That's a lot of money.
Yea I was thinking along the lines of 4k, high/ultra settings, nextgen ai and lighting, and all that nextgen tech, how many TFs would all that need.
Just being curious
I wonder if a company comes along at some point and does what neogeo did back in the day.
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Tarkus98
Member
Thanks for the explanation. Yeah, I get it and like I said it’s a good starting point. We definitely needs stronger gpus to hit the 4K target but there’s a lot of other considerations. Hell, I’d be happy with 1080p/60 and using all the extra grunt and newer effects to generate jaw dropping graphics.All that has nothing to do with the raw rendering target. It’s just straight mathematics. In order to generate 4x the pixels per seconds you need 4x the number of operations. That’s really all it is.
It’s better to think of this in reverse.
Whatever you are rendering at 4K requires 4x the operations than rendering at 1080P natively. There isn’t really a way around that.
Hopefully this gives you a visual idea of the magnitude of the power increase before we even get into the discussion of visual effects increases.
Leonidas
Member
If they need 7.4 Tflops for 4K30 PS4 visuals won't they need 15 Tflops for 4K60 PS4 visuals?
Last gen visuals... any native 4K60 game on PS5 will look like a PS4 game.
The next-gen console graphics leap is bottle-necked by all sorts of up-scaling and rendering techniques if the speculated 10-12 Tflops is even remotely true.
Last gen visuals... any native 4K60 game on PS5 will look like a PS4 game.
The next-gen console graphics leap is bottle-necked by all sorts of up-scaling and rendering techniques if the speculated 10-12 Tflops is even remotely true.
Ar¢tos
Member
My toaster can output 8k 120fps games, it just depends on what you can render with it....
phil_t98
#SonyToo
But the X is running games better than playstation versions graphically and hitting 4k so that doesn't quite work. Extra memory for textures and bells and whistles. whats holding back the pro and the X is the cpus and mostly maxed out
Ar¢tos
Member
Mostly smoke and mirrors if you are talking about Forza. Compared to GT the cars have less detail, the crowds have less detail, the tracks, backgrounds, etc.
Digital Foundry has a video of it.
The game was made to run on the base X1, so it's limited by it and 6tf is more than enough to run it at 4k, even with better textures.
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geordiemp
Member
https://www.techradar.com/news/comp...idia-who-makes-the-best-graphics-cards-699480
Nope,
Do you think games optimised by Sony wont be very parallel optimised .....LOL
This is not PC land, sony consoles are optimised differently and they get allot out of them, PC through windows is totally different. 1070 does not like DirectX12 as much, what do you think will be the parrallel coding CPU and GPU on console ?
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Bogroll
Likes moldy games
I assume you haven't been in the next gen racing graphics thread if you think GT cars have more detail than Forza 7. What people mistake DF as saying more detailed cars in GTS is more detailed in the showroom not actual gameplay. That DF is poor failing to mention lots of things that are poor v Forza 7. Go in there, it's a minefield tho.
And even if you still think GTS is better. If the PS4 Pro can run GTS at 1800p the XBX could run GTS at 4k
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But it does work out. It literally works out mathematically.
Again we will take a PS4 game on 1.85 system. Assuming specs are maxed for the game. We could see visual effects differences between a 1.3-1.85 system. Which in reality Negligible. This could be in the form of better frame rates, higher resolution, or any other sorts of effects like LOD, draw distances, textures, post processing effects, etc. it just depends where the developer chooses to use the extra horsepower.
Now on the pro. It’s likely going to be 4K but not native, most likely checkerboard. The end effect is that you end rendering roughly half the image of a native 4K image. So instead of rendering 4x whatever you rendered on 1.85 Tflops you’re rendering at 2x the pixels requiring only twice the operations from the 1.85 game or 3.7 Tflops. The PS4 is 4.2 Tflops so this doesn’t leave a lot of budget for graphical improvements.
Taking the XBO to XBX. The same game on a 1.3 system thrown into 4K should require a 5.2 Tflops system while XBX is 6.2 Tflops. Meaning you should theoretically have a 20% GPU time to make things “prettier”.
For Forza Horizon 4 , MS was able to increase that extra GPU time to 25% from the expected 20%. But that’s from 1st party studio making a showcase console exclusive. Youre likely never going to see that level of optimization for multiplat games because the 5% increase in GPU time likely isn’t worth the effort vs dialing down the visuals unless you really needed it for something.
Yes this would all be true. 4K/60fps would generally need 8x the gpu cycles of a 1080P/30fps rendering. That’s why you start to ask the question if forcing your game to a native 4K/60fps is worth all the trade offs. Even if you just went half res 4K with rendering techniques and 60fps you’d still end up with a lot of room to play.
I doubt you’re going to see any games running 4K 60fps unless they were specifically designed to always run 60fps in which case that would have need factoring into its design and likely look like an XBO game.
Dontero
Banned
People said exact same thing going from SD to HD and from PS3 to PS4.
While resolution is just one thing, the whole package is where it changes. You can't take 240p game to 4k and somehow make it look good. What 4k game needs is 4k assets, effects in high res and so on.
Real question is where we will get to point where our eyes will no be able to see difference as they are literally not capable seeing of such minute details. And i sort of agree here. At 4k with some sort of 2xAA you get to that point unless you sit really really close.
Either way it will take NEXT gen for developers to properly take on 4k. Right now 4k is just resolution bump and nothing else.
It’s not misleading. I don’t understand your math, in both cases, over 7 tflops is required. Xbox One has less tflops than PS4, One X has more than Pro. And the article says 7 is required, and neither console has that much.
Not that “true 4k” matters, anyway, in terms of resolution alone, both Pro and X are already acceptable and the “More detail” you mention that is unnoticeable outside Digital Foundry’s shot zooms.
I am perfectly fine with those faux 4k presentations, for the next generation I want more fps and/or better rendering, not more pixels. Checkerboarding or frame insertion is fine, they should keep doing that.
Yes. While 1080p games do look noticeably worse on 4k TVs (depending on tv size and viewing distance), difference between “true” 4k and checkerboard 4k is not noticeable without pausing the game and examining things up close.
I want 4k checkerboard at 60fps + rendering improvements, “true 4k” is not something people should ask for.
If they are smart, they will never allow Sony to have more 1st party studios of that calibre and exclusives again. When there were no titles, people bought PS4 more because of better performance, but later, they kept buying it because of the games.
I hope MS doesn’t go for the spec race, but the content race, because I like their hardware and competition is good for all.