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DA4 will celebrate diversity - narrative lead motives questioned after questionable tweets

ROMhack

Member
Thing is, you don't need to have strong political views to write a strong narrative. You just need to be a good writer, which usually means having sympathy for different types of people.

Not saying this guy does or doesn't but somewhere along the line people seem to have forgotten.
 
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Diversity is great and political messaging is great if its a positive messege but I just can't help thinking it's often so hamfistivly shoehorned into games that it ends up not working as it should.

When it is done well like the gay guy in The Last of Us its great and natural,cos he's just a gay guy in the game and that's that.Ellies gay as well of course and that's just as natural cos again she's just a gay girl....big deal,lol.

If EA can push these issues(which are important)into their games seemlessly then that's all good,no one needs to be upset by diversity.....I don't think they have the chops to do it if Battlefield V is any indication.

That's kind of the point. These people put "marginalized" characters into their games whose only characteristic is their identity. It's like that transwoman crewmen character in MEA who only talked about being trans. That's not a character.
 
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Zeusexy

Member
Hard pass for me. Not a fan of 2 and inquisition but this is the final nail in the coffin.
Hope they know what they're doing because I foresee another #getwokegobroke case here.
 

The_Mike

I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
Seems like anything with EA labeled on will get a pass for me. Their games simply just ain’t for me anymore.

Even franchises I like did they demolish. But they’ve done that for ages anyways (Bullfrog comes to mind)
 
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You don't need to have strong political views to write a strong narrative. You just need to be a good writer, which probably means having sympathy for different types of people.
Well Gander who wrote DAO left and people like DAO. And he is a homosexual guy. Only the DAO series starting with the first had male homosexual relationships. Mass Effect never did until 3 and was drop from Andromeda only to be patched in later.
 

Petrae

Member
Electronic Arts and employees within its holdings regard the approval of liberal-minded peers as more important than appealing to a wider selection of potential customers.

It’s more important for them to tell everyone that you’re on the “right side” of a hot sociopolitical topic than to just let your game do the talking. As a result, you draw battle lines and convince at least some people— even directly so, as with Battlefield V— not to buy your game.

It’s grandstanding. It’s the developers being more important than their creations. It’s also a recipe for limited sales potential, which doesn’t make sense for a business. Employees may like this approach, as it validates their sociopolitical beliefs, but shareholders probably cringe when they read stuff like this and wonder why higher-ups continue to damage the sales of their products like this.
 

The Alien

Banned
Hmmm. We will see if the 'Get woke, go broke' holds true. But could be risky for EA - who need a hit badly.

EA could have long string if failures here. First BF2....then BF5....Anthem needs to do well. Then DA4 will be up.

EA's stock has halved since BF2.
 
I'm sure the WOKENASS will reach the stratosphere but the dude is correct: the first Dragon Age has a running narrative about 'city elves' being downtrodden, dwarves being chronically suspicious of outsiders, it includes that one ENCHANTMENT!! person who is clearly mentally disabled in some way, highlights the brittleness of the Mage's ideology, and so forth. You can fail the 'Marry Alistair' questline merely by being an elf. How's that for social commentary!

It's not exactly deep social commentary, but it's there.
 

HarryKS

Member
When has an RPG never been about diversity and escapism? Those little narcissists trying to sound like Gandhi. They just need to shut the fuck up sometimes and make the game and go through proper QA.
 

Kreydo

Member
Dragon Age never been about roleplay or RPG after Origin so whatever... Just be the next LGBT Jesus in DA:4 or don't play it!
 

kyussman

Member
That's kind of the point. These people put "marginalized" characters into their games whose only characteristic is their identity. It's like that transwoman crewmen character in MEA whose only talked about being trans. That's not a character.
Yea,I remember that character they stuck out like a sore thumb,lol.I guess to some people I'm now transphobic for noticing how that was handled badly!?!
 

RedVIper

Banned
Ok the only reason EA does this is because they have a trash public image and they want to try and remedy that without having to stop being a shitty business. So they focus on diversity hires instead of focusing on hiring competent people, their games have been shit lately so who cares, just don't buy them.
 
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Yea,I remember that character they stuck out like a sore thumb,lol.I guess to some people I'm now transphobic for noticing how that was handled badly!?!

The defenses I see for that kind of writing are that characters who are straight/white/etc. have that as their defining characteristic as well, which I've never actually seen to be the case outside of characters equally as shallow and lazy as that crewman.

For example, if you have very flirtatious straight male side character whose every dialogue is a variation of "I slay pussy!", they are just as shallow and one note. A good character might be a flirt (Han Solo, for example), but has other characteristics as well that make them into a believable human being. I think a lot of the crusaders out there do not understand this because they are looking in purely from the intersectional space where all that matters is checking the box.
 
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Shai-Tan

Banned
I played Inquisition years ago, but I remember a scene with a trans character where they literally sit you to listen to a lecture about how "trans people are people just like us" and I was rolling my eyes about how unnatural and preachy that conversation was. There were other "woke moments" as well.

It seems the next one will crank it to 11.

Show me. We'll go over it. If I can't remember it and I read about these topics as much as I do I doubt it's a problem it's being inflated into here.

That's kind of the point. These people put "marginalized" characters into their games whose only characteristic is their identity. It's like that transwoman crewmen character in MEA whose only talked about being trans. That's not a character.

I played DAI as a female character and I was disappointed (edit: to be clear to people who haven't played Dragon Age - you get to have a romantic relationship with one of your companions) when Dorian ended up being gay because it wasn't obvious. He was a good character. Until the quest reveal it seemed to me that he was just a bit camp with a dandy-ish style that could easily be fashonable in Tevinter where he came from.
 
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Thiagosc777

Member
GAF is going to shit yet again with all this political bullshit.

Why? We are just pointing out what the developers themselves are saying. If the developers stopped spewing this nonsense, we wouldn't have a reason to talk about it.

Are you suggesting that we should ignore what the developers say?
 

Thiagosc777

Member
Show me. We'll go over it. If I can't remember it and I read about these topics as much as I do I doubt it's a problem it's being inflated into here.

Did Google stop working? It was a scene in the bar with that Qunari guy and his trans friend, I don't remember his name.
 

Petrae

Member
GAF is going to shit yet again with all this political bullshit.

If game developers and their employees wouldn’t proudly march out their sociopolitical stances for everyone to see, GAF would have fewer instances to insert said sociopolitical arguments into threads.

It’s possible to have opinions without jumping on the world’s loudest microphone in Twitter to scream them out. Divisive hot takes rarely end well and wind up turning as many people off as they do at gathering those all-important likes and retweets. That validation is, apparently, more important than trying to sell your game... or, at least, than keeping the sociopolitical stuff from being what everyone talks about instead of the game you’re working on.
 

Starfield

Member
I'm glad there are better RPG's coming out in the coming years like Starfield, TES Vl and The Outer Worlds so I don't have to rely on BioWare's crap.

BW used to be SO good, now we're in the politics game...something that doesn't fit into gaming. It never will.
 
Show me. We'll go over it. If I can't remember it and I read about these topics as much as I do I doubt it's a problem it's being inflated into here.



I played DAI as a female character and I was disappointed when Dorian ended up being gay because it wasn't obvious. He was a good character. Until the quest reveal it seemed to me that he was just a bit camp with a dandy-ish style that could easily be fashonable in Tevinter where he came from.

I think that carries over from this:

Well Gander who wrote DAO left and people like DAO. And he is a homosexual guy. Only the DAO series starting with the first had male homosexual relationships. Mass Effect never did until 3 and was drop from Andromeda only to be patched in later.

There was already a precedent for writing gay characters whose defining characteristic wasn't that they love dick. A little more nuanced understanding of the identity than just "This character is trans, so that must define their entire being!"
 
Not at all surprising. Dragon Age has been like this since the 2nd one.

At this point I'd be more surprised if Bioware or EA did something besides this. They've both made it clear repeatedly that they are pushing politics in their games at every opportunity.
 

kyussman

Member
The defenses I see for that kind of writing are that characters who are straight/white/etc. have that as their defining characteristic as well, which I've never actually seen to be the case outside of characters equally as shallow and lazy as that crewman.

For example, if you have very flirtatious straight male side character whose every dialogue is a variation of "I slay pussy!", they are just as shallow and one note. A good character might be a flirt (Han Solo, for example), but has other characteristics as well that make them into a believable human being. I think a lot of the crusaders out there do not understand this because they are looking in purely from the intersectional space where all that matters is checking the box.
Yea,I totally agree.That's what I meant about Ellie.She is a great character....who happens to be gay.

Like I said,I don't think EA have the ability to pull it off and that guy doing the new Dragon Age.......sheesh.......that's gonna be a trainwreck if it's gonna be as heavily handled as I imagine it will be.
 
If game developers and their employees wouldn’t proudly march out their sociopolitical stances for everyone to see, GAF would have fewer instances to insert said sociopolitical arguments into threads.

It’s possible to have opinions without jumping on the world’s loudest microphone in Twitter to scream them out. Divisive hot takes rarely end well and wind up turning as many people off as they do at gathering those all-important likes and retweets. That validation is, apparently, more important than trying to sell your game... or, at least, than keeping the sociopolitical stuff from being what everyone talks about instead of the game you’re working on.

I play games to escape this bullshit. Keep this type of shit off GAF.
 

Duallusion

Member
Oh great, I'm really looking forward to be lectured about intersectional feminism by some Bioware writer who's more interested in pushing a political message rather than crafting an engaging story.

I just checked and he seems to have taken out that pro-intersectional feminism bit from his twitter profile?

In any case, it's not all bad; maybe they'll upgrade their system with "privilege/discrimination" stats based on whichever class/race/sexual orientation/gender we choose! Since I'm boring and I always create a straight white human (cis) male char whenever I can - yes, even in fantasy RPGs -, I'll start my adventure with the highest "privilege value" compared to everyone else's chosen combination - with chosen biography only slighty affecting my overall totally OP stats!

I can't wait to be a "chaotic neutral privileged oppressor" right from the start - just like in real life!
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I always thought the games' stories and dialogues sucked. I'll just wait to see if they improve enough to care, not bash them for their intent, lol. Don't wanna sensor the writer either way, lol.
 
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Fuz

Banned


The narrative director of the next Dragon Age already confirmed that the game will be political and will celebrate "diversity". Check this out (please see that entire twitter thread, it is enlightening):



EA is about to get woke and go broke, AGAIN! I guess BFV wasn't enough of a disaster. Haha

...was anyone expecting anything different?
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
If game developers and their employees wouldn’t proudly march out their sociopolitical stances for everyone to see, GAF would have fewer instances to insert said sociopolitical arguments into threads.

It’s possible to have opinions without jumping on the world’s loudest microphone in Twitter to scream them out. Divisive hot takes rarely end well and wind up turning as many people off as they do at gathering those all-important likes and retweets. That validation is, apparently, more important than trying to sell your game... or, at least, than keeping the sociopolitical stuff from being what everyone talks about instead of the game you’re working on.

You could also not read it and judge the material as it comes. If him being immersed in social media makes the writing worse then so be it. Or maybe it's just characteristic of how people politically engage with twitter. Some of the responses here are what could reasonably be labeled reactionary in the way they pre judge media and there's plenty of evidence of people taking an "anti-sjw" stance doing this about games before release then being proven hypersensitive (pre release there was hand wringing about how the matriarchal societies in Horizon Zero Dawn was evidence it is an ultra woke game which isn't true at all)
 

Enygger_Tzu

Banned
You could also not read it and judge the material as it comes. If him being immersed in social media makes the writing worse then so be it. Or maybe it's just characteristic of how people politically engage with twitter. Some of the responses here are what could reasonably be labeled reactionary in the way they pre judge media and there's plenty of evidence of people taking an "anti-sjw" stance doing this about games before release then being proven hypersensitive (pre release there was hand wringing about how the matriarchal societies in Horizon Zero Dawn was evidence it is an ultra woke game which isn't true at all)

This is true and all, but don't forget, this is the same situation with ME: Andromeda some key members of the franchise's team saw fit to throw some polemics against white people on Twitter and how this team was "diverse". The writing was on the wall then, it is in the wall now as well, the initial distaste and skepticism are well-founded.
 

mcz117chief

Member
Having a diverse cast of characters is great, but I feel like this game will be more of a "checklist" to make sure every ethnicity and sexuality is represented, preferably all combinations, which will just be forced diversity. Diversity for diversity's sake is terrible. The guy's twitter profile tells me all I need to know about where the game is heading.
 

Kadayi

Banned
I play games to escape this bullshit. Keep this type of shit off GAF.

tumblr_n08pil5HdH1rd1qi0o1_500.gif
 

Petrae

Member
You could also not read it and judge the material as it comes. If him being immersed in social media makes the writing worse then so be it. Or maybe it's just characteristic of how people politically engage with twitter. Some of the responses here are what could reasonably be labeled reactionary in the way they pre judge media and there's plenty of evidence of people taking an "anti-sjw" stance doing this about games before release then being proven hypersensitive (pre release there was hand wringing about how the matriarchal societies in Horizon Zero Dawn was evidence it is an ultra woke game which isn't true at all)

Dude has a right to say what he wants in a very public way, but anyone who chooses to exercise that right also invites scrutiny and disagreement as a result. In this highly-charged, binary sociopolitical climate that we live in now, it’s incredibly risky to participate in such matters on social media. People will make their own interpretations of what you say and (fairly or unfairly) judge you— and your product, if you’re creative— accordingly.

The smart thing to do is to keep your sociopolitical views and opinions to yourself if you’re involved in business in any way. Failing to do so, or deciding to aggressively engage groups whose views don’t necessarily align with your own, is a decision that may do more harm than good in the long run.

Agreeing or disagreeing with this person’s views is secondary to the fact that he opens himself, and his employer (by proxy), to scrutiny and adverse reaction by airing said views for anyone and everyone to read. Once you go viral, you’re fucked.
 

Thiagosc777

Member
You could also not read it and judge the material as it comes. If him being immersed in social media makes the writing worse then so be it. Or maybe it's just characteristic of how people politically engage with twitter. Some of the responses here are what could reasonably be labeled reactionary in the way they pre judge media and there's plenty of evidence of people taking an "anti-sjw" stance doing this about games before release then being proven hypersensitive (pre release there was hand wringing about how the matriarchal societies in Horizon Zero Dawn was evidence it is an ultra woke game which isn't true at all)

Should we accept being insulted, keep our heads down and quietly buy the game then? They are not entitled to our money. If a developer is out there insulting me, I am not going to buy his game.

They better learn how to behave professionally or else I hope every one of their games flop.
 

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
I don't think the non-minority characters in DA games were good, they were all the same quality, it's fine to want them to improve across the board, it's dumb to say they're bad because of the diversity so it shouldn't be desired for inclusion. Same for BFV, it's less desirable for so many reasons beyond omg women in the front lines in ww2 lolol. Can't believe there's a hashtag implying that's its problem. If you think the writers are bad it's one thing, if you think they're bad when it comes to wanting diversity but would be fine with the very same writers in any other way if only they didn't twit pro-whatever stuff you dislike...
 
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I enjoyed the first DA, beyond that the series means nothing to me. If the people in charge of this new thing want to go down the pandering route to whatever agendas and audiences they pay allegiance, that's fine; hopefully those same people will actually buy their game.
 

ruvikx

Banned
Dragon Age Inquisition didn't suck because Cassandra looked like a boy & homosexuality was promoted all over the product, no, it sucked because it was a collectathon with very-shallow gameplay mechanisms & the narrative was flushed down the toilet at the halfway point. The second half of the game was so boring, so anemic & so devoid of creative thinking I just don't care anymore.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
Should we accept being insulted, keep our heads down and quietly buy the game then? They are not entitled to our money. If a developer is out there insulting me, I am not going to buy his game.

They better learn how to behave professionally or else I hope every one of their games flop.

lol ok, this is following the "go woke go broke" meme which very likely overestimates what is in mind when an average purchaser chooses whether or not to buy a game. It's like seeing the opinions on cable news (with it's viewership of only a couple million) then extrapolating that to all of society. The average person has no idea about any of these concerns. Andromeda is a mess of a game and its reflected in the review scores - that probably has a lot more to do with it flopping i.e. development is hard and can fail in a hundred different ways
 

Enygger_Tzu

Banned
Andromeda was by different team, but they spouted the same political ideology. It is apparent to those who haven't even lost faith in the company (I did long time ago) which way the wind blows.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
Dragon Age Inquisition didn't suck because Cassandra looked like a boy & homosexuality was promoted all over the product, no, it sucked because it was a collectathon with very-shallow gameplay mechanisms & the narrative was flushed down the toilet at the halfway point. The second half of the game was so boring, so anemic & so devoid of creative thinking I just don't care anymore.

I agree with you about that but as flawed as it is I still feel DAI was a good game that I don't regret playing. Maybe I'm just a sucker for characters and a nice looking world considering I don't like everything from the combat, to the quests, to the collecting, to the shitty looking cut scenes.
 

Dargor

Member
Well, I'll wait and see, but if they are going about it the same they did with Andromeda, I won't be picking it up neither.
 
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Cosmogony

Member
Just to be clear, my dissatisfaction with the moderation team over the thread title was not because I found the original stellar. As a matter of principle, titles shouldn't be changed unless a forum rule is explicitly being broken and they certainly shouldn't be changed without consulting the OP. Once the title is changed, a brief explanation would also be appreciated.

It does seem to me the reason Inquisition and Andromeda flopped creatively had to do with shallow writing. Though it's not clear the specific reason for such shallowness was tied to the intersectional views of their respective writers, it is certain the concept of Representation necessarily leads to shallow writing.

If , say, the Asian pansexual NPC is to be regarded as the representative of all pansexuals, or of all Asians, then he is sure to be portrayed under a favourable light, even if the story would advise otherwise. What author in his right mind would imbue said NPC with any meaningful flaws - an absolute necessity for sound storytelling - if the flaws were to be viewed not just as individual traits but as communalities among pansexual Asians?

The writer would certainly risk being called niceties like racist or phobe of sorts.
 
Do you know that the impression given is actually the opposite?

No matter how good the gameplay is, the moment some kind of inclusiveness is shown in advance the game is fucked. This thread is proof.
I want a good story. I don’t care if there is diversity. Fantasy worlds inspired by DnD and the materials that inspired that are diverse.

There in lies the problem. People don’t need to be told there will be diversity. So when we are told there will be a celebration of diversity... people hear that as real world bullshittery being brought in to a fantasy game we want escapism in to give us a lecture.

We don’t trust people wearing their political position on their sleeve having power over products we want to buy for franchises that never needed the shit their peddling in 2018. Isnt that the same argument HE himself holds for intersectiona feminism with white men holding positions of power in society? It smacks of revenge, not creativity.

Make a good story first. Work in dialog and interactions that will court empathy once you get a good foundation.
 

RedVIper

Banned
It does seem to me the reason Inquisition and Andromeda flopped creatively had to do with shallow writing. Though it's not clear the specific reason for such shallowness was tied to the intersectional views of their respective writers, it is certain the concept of Representation necessarily leads to shallow writing.

If , say, the Asian pansexual NPC is to be regarded as the representative of all pansexuals, or of all Asians, then he is sure to be portrayed under a favourable light, even if the story would advise otherwise. What author in his right mind would imbue said NPC with any meaningful flaws - an absolute necessity for sound storytelling - if the flaws were to be viewed not just as individual traits but as communalities among pansexual Asians?

The writer would certainly risk being called niceties like racist or phobe of sorts.

This is something I definitely agree, "white males" are the norm because they can be painted in a bad light without the developers fearing repercussion. Whenever minorities or women are involved they invariably end up as mary sue characters, on one hand because they are supposed to represent an entire community and on the other because if the character as any sort of "flaw" the devs will be called some sort of -ism.

Tomb Raider reboot was criticized for its sexualized portrait of Lara(Ah character that has always been sexualized and has existed for decades) and because of the grotesque death scenes, some people even calling it "torture porn". GTA V had plenty of criticism for representing it's black characher as a "thug". Until these characters start having actual personalities and are included for the sake of a better story, instead of mindless pandering, they'll continue to have backlash.
 
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