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[LOLCats]

I guess they didn’t get the message that most gamers don’t want this shit in games.

BioWare dead as fuck to me. And they keep dying in a fire over and over again my driveway right in front of me. No one comes by to clean up the previous pile of ashes, it’s a vicious cycle.

 

[LOLCats]

Oh this is the guy.

 

[Kadayi]

Pretty sure that's not him LOLCats

 

[Hnetuduft]

Nvm

 

[Woo-Fu]

I don't understand what the problem is, fantasy RPGs are almost always diverse. Multiple races, multiple classes, etc. Just don't assume the gender of the next dwarf you run into at the smithy and you should be fine.

 

[Alexios]

I don't understand what the problem is, fantasy RPGs are almost always diverse. Multiple races, multiple classes, etc. Just don't assume the gender of the next dwarf you run into at the smithy and you should be fine.

Hasn't that always been the case for dwarves?

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Celebrate diversity, just don't get bogged down by it. Preaching to the choir is a crutch that poor writers use to gain praise without having actually done anything praiseworthy.

Personally, the best way to celebrate diversity is to not tell anyone you are doing it, then watch as your game becomes the organically chosen go to example of people wanting to show what greats the game industry is capable of. Telling people you are celebrating diversity and then creating a bad game just causes to people associate your politics with your failure.

 

[LOLCats]

Dragon Age 4 OT: It’s all about Ginseng.

 

[Alexios]

Celebrate diversity, just don't get bogged down by it. Preaching to the choir is a crutch that poor writers use to gain praise without having actually done anything praiseworthy.

Personally, the best way to celebrate diversity is to not tell anyone you are doing it, then watch as your game becomes the organically chosen go to example of people wanting to show what greats the game industry is capable of. Telling people you are celebrating diversity and then creating a bad game just causes to people associate your politics with your failure.

Sure but then you also might as well say they shouldn't hype their writing at all in an RPG and then have people use it as an example for good writing cos it's just that good. That's not how marketing works these days and besides it's natural for people to discuss promising upcoming rpgs in detail and ask and talk about the themes they involve or whatever, that this one may involve "diversity" as a theme is not cause for outrage. Be outraged writing sucks and if it sucks don't blame diversity for it but blame bad writers. Whatever writers they have for this won't be magically good or bad based on the themes chosen, they're either going to do a good job or not, not having diversity wouldn't make it inherently better, being against diversity like many here condemning it based on just that seems shitty to me but whatever.

Edit: er, basically I do agree with you but I think that last sentence of yours, associating the politics (well, I think diversity barely passes as politics, it's the human thing to do) with the failure, is the fault of the one who associates it like that and an intentional strawman argument when it happens. Like it's already happening so much in this thread before people even see the results, lol, I'm sure everyone here will judge the results objectively, yeah...

 

[Aurelian]

I guess they didn’t get the message that most gamers don’t want this shit in games.

BioWare dead as fuck to me. And they keep dying in a fire over and over again my driveway right in front of me. No one comes by to clean up the previous pile of ashes, it’s a vicious cycle.

Most gamers? Who the hell are you to say what most gamers want? The Sims has been one of the more progressive games in recent years and it's been a consistently strong seller for EA; the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games were hits as well, and they've had elements of diversity since the start.

Besides, call me crazy, but I'd like people who aren't white, straight men to feel welcome playing games. That means giving them characters and roles they can identify with. And isn't a fantasy game an ideal venue for that? I'm just baffled at how you can be so hateful.

 

[Alexios]

Most gamers? Who the hell are you to say what most gamers want? The Sims has been one of the more progressive games in recent years and it's been a consistently strong seller for EA; the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games were hits as well, and they've had elements of diversity since the start.

Besides, call me crazy, but I'd like people who aren't white, straight men to feel welcome playing games. That means giving them characters and roles they can identify with. And isn't a fantasy game an ideal venue for that? I'm just baffled at how you can be so hateful.

Don't you know you're a SJW by saying stuff like that? How will you live with yourself now?



I really hope the next DA has good writing, haven't been a fan of bioware's works in that aspect since ages and it had nothing to do with diversity, hope they're stepping their game up this time!

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

Most gamers? Who the hell are you to say what most gamers want? The Sims has been one of the more progressive games in recent years and it's been a consistently strong seller for EA; the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games were hits as well, and they've had elements of diversity since the start.

Besides, call me crazy, but I'd like people who aren't white, straight men to feel welcome playing games. That means giving them characters and roles they can identify with. And isn't a fantasy game an ideal venue for that? I'm just baffled at how you can be so hateful.

And look what diversity did to ME? Do you wish the same to happen to DA?

Also who does stop those not-white, not-straight, not-men play games and find their OWN game titles and companies that cater to their needs instead of asking to co-opt white, straight, men game series and companies?

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Sure but then you also might as well say they shouldn't hype their writing at all in an RPG and then have people use it as an example for good writing cos it's just that good.

Well... yeah. I mean, nobody like a braggart. Show us that it is good, don't tell us.

Be outraged writing sucks and if it sucks don't blame diversity for it but blame bad writers.

Sometimes, the writing is bad BECAUSE of the diversity. I don't have a problem with diversity. I have a problem with lazy writing, and people high on their own farts are the laziest writers around.

Whatever writers they have for this won't be magically good or bad based on the themes chosen, they're either going to do a good job or not, not having diversity wouldn't make it inherently better, being against diversity like many here condemning it based on just that seems shitty to me but whatever.

I'm not against diversity. But a good writer knows that the point of a story is not to celebrate diversity, but to create a story that exemplifies diversity. That is, you aren't writing an expository essay or a persuasive essay, you are writing a story, and the themes and message of the characters and story are what deliver your message.

Someone who gets up and says, "I'm celebrating diversity" is sending a very different message to someone who says "I've got this great story to tell". The story ends up bad, one is a failure at writing something good while the other is a failure to write in the first place.

 

[Aurelian]

Don't you know you're a SJW by saying stuff like that? How will you live with yourself now?



I really hope the next DA has good writing, haven't been a fan of bioware's works in that aspect since ages and it had nothing to do with diversity, hope they're stepping their game up this time!

I think I'll manage.

I'll agree, the issue isn't inclusiveness, it's nuts-and-bolts issues like writing quality or Andromeda's experimentation gone wrong (and technical issues, for that matter). If someone can't stomach a game because there are lots of non-white and LGBT people in it, that says more about them than the game.

 

[Alexios]

Sometimes, the writing is bad BECAUSE of the diversity.

No, it never is, it's bad because it's written badly. If non white LGBT characters are dumb caricatures that can't stop talking dumb shit in a game, it's cos the writer did a hackjob, not cos of those traits.

 

[Thiagosc777]

lol ok, this is following the "go woke go broke" meme which very likely overestimates what is in mind when an average purchaser chooses whether or not to buy a game. It's like seeing the opinions on cable news (with it's viewership of only a couple million) then extrapolating that to all of society. The average person has no idea about any of these concerns. Andromeda is a mess of a game and its reflected in the review scores - that probably has a lot more to do with it flopping i.e. development is hard and can fail in a hundred different ways

If we are so insignificant, then why do you care so much? Why do you care enough to criticize people who do it? Leave us poor insignificant gamers be and go your way.

 

[strange headache]

And look what diversity did to ME? Do you wish the same to happen to DA?

The problem with ME: Andromeda was not diversity, but the fact that good story telling took second seat to heavy-handed political virtue-signaling.

 

[Kadayi]

Besides, call me crazy, but I'd like people who aren't white, straight men to feel welcome playing games. That means giving them characters and roles they can identify with. And isn't a fantasy game an ideal venue for that? I'm just baffled at how you can be so hateful.

Hold up there bud, are you saying that women and POC can't identify with characters that aren't reflective of themselves? Because I'll be honest, that sounds kind of fucked up.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Don't support shit threads. This thread is shit. It's fucking up our community.

Yet, here you are, shitting up the thread.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

The problem with ME: Andromeda was not diversity, but the fact that good story telling took second seat to heavy-handed political virtue-signaling.

This heavy-handed political virtue-signaling was delivered by the celebrated diversity team, however.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

No, it never is, it's bad because it's written badly. If non white LGBT characters are dumb caricatures that can't stop talking dumb shit in a game, it's cos the writer did a hackjob, not cos of those traits.

I've seen good writers go the diversity route and produce terrible work because they seemingly forgot every single lesson their decades of experience should've taught them. The simple fact is, ideology is incompatible with good writing.

Think of writing like you are putting together a puzzle without a reference picture. You start with the edge to give your work some shape, then filling the big obvious areas because they are easy to do and have obvious boundaries, and then finish up those big splotches of color that are annoying, but you have to do because the puzzle isn't complete without them. A good writer might start with a couple pieces already stuck together and a general idea of what the puzzle is supposed to look like. An ideological writer is going to start with a couple pieces from a different puzzle altogether. They aren't going to make a complete picture without a mallet and some scissors.

 

[Aurelian]

And look what diversity did to ME? Do you wish the same to happen to DA?

Also who does stop those not-white, not-straight, not-men play games and find their OWN game titles and companies that cater to their needs instead of asking to co-opt white, straight, men game series and companies?

Er, what? ME and DA had elements of diversity from the get-go. Arguably the best game in the ME series, ME2, was a practical celebration of diversity. Inclusiveness by itself is not the problem and never has been.

Also, I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that minorities had to form their own companies to see themselves represented in games. I also find it telling that you see certain games as men-only or whites-only, and you feel that it's an 'intrusion' when minorities get significant representation in those titles.

Games are supposed to be for everyone. Not one gender, not one ethnicity, not one sexual orientation. Certain games may skew towards a given demographic, but I don't think we should ever act as if welcoming players from other backgrounds is some kind of threat. Life's too short to waste it on exclusion and hate like you do.

 

[Alexios]

I've seen good writers go the diversity route and produce terrible work because they seemingly forgot every single lesson their decades of experience should've taught them.

Sounds like a hackjob like I just said then

 

[GenericUser]

>Game will be political
I guess you don't need my money then

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Sounds like a hackjob like I just said then

You are saying that someone failed, not why they failed. These were good writers who knew better and were capable of some amazing stories and characters - but they drank the Kool-Aid and decided that they now only wrote visitor's pamphlets to Jonestown.

 

[docmindbender]

Celebrating diversity and difference is great when handled with some deftness, nuance.
Steamrolling your agenda all over the thing is tiresome as hell.

 

[Alexios]

You are saying that someone failed, not why they failed. These were good writers who knew better and were capable of some amazing stories and characters - but they drank the Kool-Aid and decided that they now only wrote visitor's pamphlets to Jonestown.

Okay? That's on them. They could (well, should) have written with a diverse cast in a good way, but didn't. How's that not blamed on bad writing rather than on diversity itself as a concept?

 

[Conan-san]

If you have to say your work is inclusive, rather than letting the text (and, lowkey, the quality) of the product speak for itself then me thinks you have a bit of a confidence problem.

 

[Aurelian]

Hold up there bud, are you saying that women and POC can't identify with characters that aren't reflective of themselves? Because I'll be honest, that sounds kind of fucked up.

I'm not saying they can't, just that it's a lot easier. It shows that they matter and aren't being shoved to the side. Think about superheroes. Yeah, many people may resonate with Spider-Man's teenage awkwardness, but that doesn't mean it isn't important to have characters like Wonder Woman or Luke Cage. Seeing someone from your background in a prominent role can be confidence-inspiring.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Okay? That's on them. They could (well, should) have written with a diverse cast in a good way, but didn't. How's that not blamed on bad writing rather than on diversity itself as a concept?

I'm not blaming diversity. I'm blaming them for putting ideology first. They so strongly believe this one idea, and want to proselytize so badly, that they forgot that their job was as a writer, not as a missionary. It is not impossible to be dominated by a belief system without it affecting your work (there are several Mormon science fiction authors, like Brandon Sanderson, who don't get confused), but if you spend your free time preaching on Twitter, I think there's like a 99% chance that your writer card has expired and can't be renewed.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

Er, what? ME and DA had elements of diversity from the get-go. Arguably the best game in the ME series, ME2, was a practical celebration of diversity. Inclusiveness by itself is not the problem and never has been.

Also, I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that minorities had to form their own companies to see themselves represented in games. I also find it telling that you see certain games as men-only or whites-only, and you feel that it's an 'intrusion' when minorities get significant representation in those titles.

Games are supposed to be for everyone. Not one gender, not one ethnicity, not one sexual orientation. Certain games may skew towards a given demographic, but I don't think we should ever act as if welcoming players from other backgrounds is some kind of threat. Life's too short to waste it on exclusion and hate like you do.

I think you may be arguing a point no one is trying to make. If you call ME a celebration of diversity then that says more about you than it does us.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

Er, what? ME and DA had elements of diversity from the get-go. Arguably the best game in the ME series, ME2, was a practical celebration of diversity. Inclusiveness by itself is not the problem and never has been.

Also, I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that minorities had to form their own companies to see themselves represented in games. I also find it telling that you see certain games as men-only or whites-only, and you feel that it's an 'intrusion' when minorities get significant representation in those titles.

Games are supposed to be for everyone. Not one gender, not one ethnicity, not one sexual orientation. Certain games may skew towards a given demographic, but I don't think we should ever act as if welcoming players from other backgrounds is some kind of threat. Life's too short to waste it on exclusion and hate like you do.

ME: Andromeda was an even bigger celebration of diversity, it basically touted out its diversity from every pore of it, even from the uglification of the female protagonist and well, we saw where that trainwreck headed.
Diversity can happen, but when diversity is the driving factor between your end product, your end product will almost always turn bad, like BFV did before it and the onus is on the companies to prove they can tackle diversity and a good game or story, so far the results have been dissapointing.

You are excuse because I am sure you did not realized that when straight white males (TM) wished to feel represented in stories, games, and general media they created those stories, those games, those media, for scratch, from zero and with the intolerance and constant booing and downplaying of the society around them a downplaying that lasts to this day, if I might add.
If any minority wishes to be represented in media, then they are more than free to create their own, or free to support the endeavors that represent them, instead of co-opt and eventually killing the stories white males created.
Nobody stops them, much less, I.

Games for sure are not for everyone, as it had proven time and time again, at least the games men wish to play and the games men wish to play are different, both tonally and narratively wise.

 

[Cosmogony]

Most gamers? Who the hell are you to say what most gamers want?

That's a fair point, which also applies to people making the opposite claim.

Sales figures over long periods tend to show what most gamers want.

The Sims has been one of the more progressive games in recent years and it's been a consistently strong seller for EA; the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games were hits as well, and they've had elements of diversity since the start.

And can you show the reason for their success is tied to their alleged progressiveness? If not, please insert the words "correlates with" in future similar claims.

Besides, call me crazy, but I'd like people who aren't white, straight men to feel welcome playing games.

What an absurd claim. That in order for one to feel welcome playing games one has to share the most superficial of traits of the protagonist. That would mean men wouldn't be able to play as Lara Croft, women couldn't stand playing Nathan Drake, and neither would ever finish Ori and the Blind Forest.

The inanity of this logic cannot be overstated.

That means giving them characters and roles they can identify with.

Please show this is how most gamers who are members of said communities feel. Show with numbers, data, that is. Please show that in order to "feel welcome playing " a title, one has to be given "characters and roles" one can "identify with". Also explain why in light of that logic games featuring protagonists no one can possibly identify with are still successful and why games which a certain community allegedly cannot identify with would still be popular with that community.

And please explain why Shakespeare seems to be popular (https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36114485), even though very few would identify with a Danish Prince or Mercutio per se.

And isn't a fantasy game an ideal venue for that? I'm just baffled at how you can be so hateful.

I'm sure he will manage some sleep tonight, despite such devastating opinion of yours.

 

[Thiagosc777]

I'm not saying they can't, just that it's a lot easier. It shows that they matter and aren't being shoved to the side. Think about superheroes. Yeah, many people may resonate with Spider-Man's teenage awkwardness, but that doesn't mean it isn't important to have characters like Wonder Woman or Luke Cage. Seeing someone from your background in a prominent role can be confidence-inspiring.

That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Human imagination doesn't work like that. Good stories are about ideas, and anyone can identify with anything.

The only ones who can't are actual racists.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

ME: Andromeda was an even bigger celebration of diversity, it basically touted out its diversity from every pore of it, even from the uglification of the female protagonist and well, we saw where that trainwreck headed.
Diversity can happen, but when diversity is the driving factor between your end product, your end product will almost always turn bad, like BFV did before it and the onus is on the companies to prove they can tackle diversity and a good game or story, so far the results have been dissapointing.

You are excuse because I am sure you did not realized that when straight white males (TM) wished to feel represented in stories, games, and general media they created those stories, those games, those media, for scratch, from zero and with the intolerance and constant booing and downplaying of the society around them a downplaying that lasts to this day, if I might add.
If any minority wishes to be represented in media, then they are more than free to create their own, or free to support the endeavors that represent them, instead of co-opt and eventually killing the stories white males created.
Nobody stops them, much less, I.

Games for sure are not for everyone, as it had proven time and time again, at least the games men wish to play and the games men wish to play are different, both tonally and narratively wise.

What is a game that men wish to play? I wished to play Life is Strange and it’s sequel. Bought them both on multiple consoles. They don’t really have anything to do me or represent me or my generation. Yet I found them striking and impactful and made me empathize with the characters struggles.

So I actually don’t know what you are talking about.

 

[Alexios]

That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Human imagination doesn't work like that. Good stories are about ideas, and anyone can identify with anything.

The only ones who can't are actual racists.

Then much of the world is actually racist given the outrage over people discussing the notion of a diverse cast or whatever in such a negative manner?

So it's nice these devs aren't part of that so want to have that cast.

I mean, news flash, minorities are still oppressed in much of the world, even something as simple as being gay has only grown in acceptance in recent times and everyone is far from being as accepting whether in parts of the world that have recognized the equality legally or in others (and just the fact it has to be recognized legally as it wasn't already is fucked up to begin with but anyway).

It's nice to have mainstream media products that show these ideals as the norm. It's not nice to bash these ideals as the reason said media products suck, lol. They can suck, but the ideals aren't the reason.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Human imagination doesn't work like that. Good stories are about ideas, and anyone can identify with anything.

The only ones who can't are actual racists.

Bingo!

 

[Kadayi]

I'm not saying they can't, just that it's a lot easier. It shows that they matter and aren't being shoved to the side. Think about superheroes. Yeah, many people may resonate with Spider-Man's teenage awkwardness, but that doesn't mean it isn't important to have characters like Wonder Woman or Luke Cage. Seeing someone from your background in a prominent role can be confidence-inspiring.

By what metric are people being shoved to the side exactly? If you think women and POC are so weak-willed and mentally fragile that they're apparently incapable of the act of investment and imagination in a narrative unless characters in a medium somehow reflect either their sex, race or preferences then I genuinely feel sorry for you. That's not a reductionist mindset I can readily subscribe to.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

Then much of the world is actually racist given the outrage over people discussing the notion of a diverse cast or whatever in such a negative manner?

So it's nice these devs aren't part of that so want to have that cast.

That is a false premise. The expectation of fantasy consumers that aren’t fringe subgenres male power fantasy have decades of expectation of diversity. That is one pillar of the fantasy

To assert that developers need to go outside of the current expectations to “celebrate diversity” is virtue signaling. I can accept making games about marginalized groups. That type of game should exist. But to hyjack and re-Frame an already diverse genre is nothing but political activism.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Then much of the world is actually racist given the outrage over people discussing the notion of a diverse cast or whatever in such a negative manner?

So it's nice these devs aren't part of that so want to have that cast.

I mean, news flash, minorities are still oppressed in much of the world, even something as simple as being gay has only grown in acceptance in recent times and everyone is far from being as accepting whether in parts of the world that have recognized the equality legally or in others (and just the fact it has to be recognized legally as it wasn't already is fucked up to begin with but anyway).

It's nice to have mainstream media products that show these ideals as the norm. It's not nice to bash these ideals as the reason said media products suck, lol. They can suck, but the ideals aren't the reason.

Your cluelessness is amusing. "Minorities"? What are you talking about? Whites are a minority in China and most of Africa. This concept makes no sense globally. And your entire argument ignores regional differences.

Think before you talk.

 

[Alexios]

That is a false premise. The expectation of fantasy consumers that aren’t fringe subgenres male power fantasy have decades of expectation of diversity. That is one pillar of the fantasy

To assert that developers need to go outside of the current expectations to “celebrate diversity” is virtue signaling. I can accept making games about marginalized groups. That type of game should exist. But to hyjack and re-Frame an already diverse genre is nothing but political activism.

Political activism to what end? To show diversity is not a bad thing? I can get behind that personally. If you think they already enjoy the same rights and benefits and behaviors towards them then it won't affect you in the least, if you think they don't enjoy that then you would be happy some are promoting it whatever way they can, so, either way you lose nothing, and if they're bad writers and DA4 ends up bad, you didn't lose a good game, they'd be bad whether writing for diversity or not. Not that losing a good game is such a terrible thing compared to the goal even if it doesn't pay off, lol.

Your cluelessness is amusing. "Minorities"? What are you talking about? Whites are a minority in China and most of Africa. This concept makes no sense globally. And your entire argument ignores regional differences.

Think before you talk.

No u! That's the level of your discourse there. Lmao. Sorry if you have oppressed and prejudiced against them white friends in China, I hope things change there too then.

 

[NahaNago]

I'm not saying they can't, just that it's a lot easier. It shows that they matter and aren't being shoved to the side. Think about superheroes. Yeah, many people may resonate with Spider-Man's teenage awkwardness, but that doesn't mean it isn't important to have characters like Wonder Woman or Luke Cage. Seeing someone from your background in a prominent role can be confidence-inspiring.

I can't really agree with that personally. Getting confidence from a super hero character is just weird. Your just suppose to enjoy books, movies, or games and if you can't enjoy something because your color isn't represented/playable then something is wrong with you personally.

 

[Cosmogony]

Er, what? ME and DA had elements of diversity from the get-go. Arguably the best game in the ME series, ME2, was a practical celebration of diversity. Inclusiveness by itself is not the problem and never has been.

It's neither a problem nor a virtue per se.

Also, I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that minorities had to form their own companies to see themselves represented in games.

Minorities are not owed anything. Neither are majorities. No one is entitled to anything just because they are who they are, especially not other's people's creative output.

I also find it telling that you see certain games as men-only or whites-only,

In fact it is you who is upholding this preposterous distinction when you claim people can only feel welcome playing games when they are given protagibnists and roles they can identify with.

Maybe the absurdity of the claim is finally hitting you.

and you feel that it's an 'intrusion' when minorities get significant representation in those titles.

The problem lies in the concept of Representation itself, but evidently, the problem escapes you.

Games are supposed to be for everyone.

You are contardiciting yourself.

If gamers can only feel welcome playing games where they can identify with the protagonists, it necessarily follows that game X is for people who can identify with its protagonists. Ergo, by your own definition, each game is not for everyone. ANd since as a whole games have yet to cover all of the possible permutations mankind can be divided up into, no, game are not for everyone.

I don't think albino midgets who enjoy fake Cantonese takeaway have been featured in a game, as protagonists. I guess videogames are a no-no for them.

Please, do try to have some consistency.

Not one gender, not one ethnicity, not one sexual orientation. Certain games may skew towards a given demographic, but I don't think we should ever act as if welcoming players from other backgrounds is some kind of threat.

See above. You have yet to establish that welcoming gamers necessarily entails having a protagionist they can feel represented by.

Life's too short to waste it on exclusion and hate like you do.

And equally short to dwell on inane and unsubstantiated points you insist on bringing up.

 

[Barsinister]

Which is more diverse?

1.) A group of different races, all with the same social outlook?
2.) A group of the same race, all with different social outlooks?

 

[Garnox]

I dunno. In my playthrough of DA:I I didn’t feel force fed an agenda. I thought Dorian’s story was handled very well that addressed a “political issue” and it ended up being one of my favorite parts of the game. So when stuff is organic, I’m alright with it.

I may have missed a dialogue option with the transgender Inquisition soldier that worked under The Bull. I knew they were transgender and it was just a quick throw away line that I can recall that revealed that about them. I like that The Bull accepted anybody who is worth their weight on his team, no matter their background. That didn’t feel forced.

That’s what I’m getting at. I agree that the trend of forcing things can disrupt the overall presentation of a story. If it’s engrained in the story and told “as a matter of factly” it can enhance a story IMO.

 

[Thiagosc777]

No u! That's the level of your discourse there. Lmao. Sorry if you have oppressed and prejudiced against them white friends in China, I hope things change there too then.

I mean, news flash, minorities are still oppressed in much of the world, even something as simple as being gay has only grown in acceptance in recent times and everyone is far from being as accepting whether in parts of the world that have recognized the equality legally or in others (and just the fact it has to be recognized legally as it wasn't already is fucked up to begin with but anyway).

You probably can't point to China on a map. Let alone know what you are talking about.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

What is a game that men wish to play? I wished to play Life is Strange and it’s sequel. Bought them both on multiple consoles. They don’t really have anything to do me or represent me or my generation. Yet I found them striking and impactful and made me empathize with the characters struggles.

So I actually don’t know what you are talking about.

I talk about this statistic https://quanticfoundry.com/2017/01/19/female-gamers-by-genre/ of the breaking of female gamers by genre.

If you look at the sheet, you will notice that the the more a game is catering to a single gender the less is catering to the opposite gender.

 

[Kadayi]

It's nice to have mainstream media products that show these ideals as the norm.

Sure it might be nice, but it's not necessary from a narrative perspective for media to do so, and nor should media creators feel obligated to cater to such ideals.

It's not nice to bash these ideals as the reason said media products suck, lol. They can suck, but the ideals aren't the reason

No ones bashing the ideals, but the brute reality is they're often crowbarred in without rhyme or reason in a notably cackhanded manner without exception and with little regard to world-building or lore. Case in point Beamdog when they shoved a transgender NPC into a new Baldurs Gate game, without any comprehension that AD&D has a sex change spell. Or how about when Bioware despite having cast Kaiden in ME1 as straight decided to flip him in Mass Effect 3 just to appease people when they could have kept him as was and made James Vega a gay romance option instead.

 

[RedVIper]

Er, what? ME and DA had elements of diversity from the get-go. Arguably the best game in the ME series, ME2, was a practical celebration of diversity. Inclusiveness by itself is not the problem and never has been.

You're right, inclusiveness by itself is not the problem, shitty one is, ME:A had some shitty inclusiveness for example.

Also, I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that minorities had to form their own companies to see themselves represented in games. I also find it telling that you see certain games as men-only or whites-only, and you feel that it's an 'intrusion' when minorities get significant representation in those titles.

They don't but they also don't get to tell developers what to make, and that has happened a lot, the Kingdom Come devoloper was publicly ostracized because his game didn't have black people. When the media shames everyone who doesn't bow to their agenda you're no longed asking developers to be inclusive, you're demanding they do it under threat of public shame, threatening their livelihood and having an impact on their life. So yes people, not necessarily minorities, who want games to be inclusive should make their own games instead of forcing other to do so under threats.

Games are supposed to be for everyone. Not one gender, not one ethnicity, not one sexual orientation. Certain games may skew towards a given demographic, but I don't think we should ever act as if welcoming players from other backgrounds is some kind of threat. Life's too short to waste it on exclusion and hate like you do.

Players from other backgrounds are already welcome, games are escapism so you don't need characters you identify with to play them. This virtue signalling by game devolopers is annoying and its usually to the detriment of the game itself, your objective shouldn't be to make a game inclusive, it should be to make it good.

Okay? That's on them. They could (well, should) have written with a diverse cast in a good way, but didn't. How's that not blamed on bad writing rather than on diversity itself as a concept?

Because there are drawbacks to make a game diverse, take AC:Odyssey for example, besides the obvious historical revisionism, the story has to be shallower to cater to both a male and female protagonist.

 

[Pantz]

It's hard for me to put into words all I feel about this stuff, but here is some of what I can get out.

Developers/community managers/anyone involved with making big budget games with lots of employees need to have PR talks about how to use social media. Weather they'r right or wrong or anything in between, you're jeopardizing the project by posting anything non-vanilla on social media. Just keep it to yourself or wait a few years until after the games release to give your real world views that everyone on the team may or may not share.

Personally I don't really care what developers put into their games, but there is a fine line they can cross by bringing in to much real world personal views into these alternate universes of video games that breaks immersion. Horizon Zero Dawn being an example of one that made me roll my eyes.

Sometimes it seems like games get developed more as a real world propaganda tool rather than for entertainment. To those I can decide if they are too annoying or worth while enough for my enjoyment to play and purchase but I do feel bad for consumers who don't do as much research on games before they buy them. Still, if the developers want to make those, it's their choice and the earnings and feedback received will show the investors if it was a good idea or not.