Hasn't that always been the case for dwarves?I don't understand what the problem is, fantasy RPGs are almost always diverse. Multiple races, multiple classes, etc. Just don't assume the gender of the next dwarf you run into at the smithy and you should be fine.
Sure but then you also might as well say they shouldn't hype their writing at all in an RPG and then have people use it as an example for good writing cos it's just that good. That's not how marketing works these days and besides it's natural for people to discuss promising upcoming rpgs in detail and ask and talk about the themes they involve or whatever, that this one may involve "diversity" as a theme is not cause for outrage. Be outraged writing sucks and if it sucks don't blame diversity for it but blame bad writers. Whatever writers they have for this won't be magically good or bad based on the themes chosen, they're either going to do a good job or not, not having diversity wouldn't make it inherently better, being against diversity like many here condemning it based on just that seems shitty to me but whatever.Celebrate diversity, just don't get bogged down by it. Preaching to the choir is a crutch that poor writers use to gain praise without having actually done anything praiseworthy.
Personally, the best way to celebrate diversity is to not tell anyone you are doing it, then watch as your game becomes the organically chosen go to example of people wanting to show what greats the game industry is capable of. Telling people you are celebrating diversity and then creating a bad game just causes to people associate your politics with your failure.
I guess they didn’t get the message that most gamers don’t want this shit in games.
BioWare dead as fuck to me. And they keep dying in a fire over and over again my driveway right in front of me. No one comes by to clean up the previous pile of ashes, it’s a vicious cycle.
Don't you know you're a SJW by saying stuff like that? How will you live with yourself now?Most gamers? Who the hell are you to say what most gamers want? The Sims has been one of the more progressive games in recent years and it's been a consistently strong seller for EA; the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games were hits as well, and they've had elements of diversity since the start.
Besides, call me crazy, but I'd like people who aren't white, straight men to feel welcome playing games. That means giving them characters and roles they can identify with. And isn't a fantasy game an ideal venue for that? I'm just baffled at how you can be so hateful.
Most gamers? Who the hell are you to say what most gamers want? The Sims has been one of the more progressive games in recent years and it's been a consistently strong seller for EA; the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games were hits as well, and they've had elements of diversity since the start.
Besides, call me crazy, but I'd like people who aren't white, straight men to feel welcome playing games. That means giving them characters and roles they can identify with. And isn't a fantasy game an ideal venue for that? I'm just baffled at how you can be so hateful.
Well... yeah. I mean, nobody like a braggart. Show us that it is good, don't tell us.Sure but then you also might as well say they shouldn't hype their writing at all in an RPG and then have people use it as an example for good writing cos it's just that good.
Sometimes, the writing is bad BECAUSE of the diversity. I don't have a problem with diversity. I have a problem with lazy writing, and people high on their own farts are the laziest writers around.Be outraged writing sucks and if it sucks don't blame diversity for it but blame bad writers.
I'm not against diversity. But a good writer knows that the point of a story is not to celebrate diversity, but to create a story that exemplifies diversity. That is, you aren't writing an expository essay or a persuasive essay, you are writing a story, and the themes and message of the characters and story are what deliver your message.Whatever writers they have for this won't be magically good or bad based on the themes chosen, they're either going to do a good job or not, not having diversity wouldn't make it inherently better, being against diversity like many here condemning it based on just that seems shitty to me but whatever.
Don't you know you're a SJW by saying stuff like that? How will you live with yourself now?
I really hope the next DA has good writing, haven't been a fan of bioware's works in that aspect since ages and it had nothing to do with diversity, hope they're stepping their game up this time!
No, it never is, it's bad because it's written badly. If non white LGBT characters are dumb caricatures that can't stop talking dumb shit in a game, it's cos the writer did a hackjob, not cos of those traits.Sometimes, the writing is bad BECAUSE of the diversity.
lol ok, this is following the "go woke go broke" meme which very likely overestimates what is in mind when an average purchaser chooses whether or not to buy a game. It's like seeing the opinions on cable news (with it's viewership of only a couple million) then extrapolating that to all of society. The average person has no idea about any of these concerns. Andromeda is a mess of a game and its reflected in the review scores - that probably has a lot more to do with it flopping i.e. development is hard and can fail in a hundred different ways
And look what diversity did to ME? Do you wish the same to happen to DA?
Besides, call me crazy, but I'd like people who aren't white, straight men to feel welcome playing games. That means giving them characters and roles they can identify with. And isn't a fantasy game an ideal venue for that? I'm just baffled at how you can be so hateful.
Don't support shit threads. This thread is shit. It's fucking up our community.
The problem with ME: Andromeda was not diversity, but the fact that good story telling took second seat to heavy-handed political virtue-signaling.
I've seen good writers go the diversity route and produce terrible work because they seemingly forgot every single lesson their decades of experience should've taught them. The simple fact is, ideology is incompatible with good writing.No, it never is, it's bad because it's written badly. If non white LGBT characters are dumb caricatures that can't stop talking dumb shit in a game, it's cos the writer did a hackjob, not cos of those traits.
And look what diversity did to ME? Do you wish the same to happen to DA?
Also who does stop those not-white, not-straight, not-men play games and find their OWN game titles and companies that cater to their needs instead of asking to co-opt white, straight, men game series and companies?
Sounds like a hackjob like I just said thenI've seen good writers go the diversity route and produce terrible work because they seemingly forgot every single lesson their decades of experience should've taught them.
You are saying that someone failed, not why they failed. These were good writers who knew better and were capable of some amazing stories and characters - but they drank the Kool-Aid and decided that they now only wrote visitor's pamphlets to Jonestown.Sounds like a hackjob like I just said then
Okay? That's on them. They could (well, should) have written with a diverse cast in a good way, but didn't. How's that not blamed on bad writing rather than on diversity itself as a concept?You are saying that someone failed, not why they failed. These were good writers who knew better and were capable of some amazing stories and characters - but they drank the Kool-Aid and decided that they now only wrote visitor's pamphlets to Jonestown.
Hold up there bud, are you saying that women and POC can't identify with characters that aren't reflective of themselves? Because I'll be honest, that sounds kind of fucked up.
I'm not blaming diversity. I'm blaming them for putting ideology first. They so strongly believe this one idea, and want to proselytize so badly, that they forgot that their job was as a writer, not as a missionary. It is not impossible to be dominated by a belief system without it affecting your work (there are several Mormon science fiction authors, like Brandon Sanderson, who don't get confused), but if you spend your free time preaching on Twitter, I think there's like a 99% chance that your writer card has expired and can't be renewed.Okay? That's on them. They could (well, should) have written with a diverse cast in a good way, but didn't. How's that not blamed on bad writing rather than on diversity itself as a concept?
Er, what? ME and DA had elements of diversity from the get-go. Arguably the best game in the ME series, ME2, was a practical celebration of diversity. Inclusiveness by itself is not the problem and never has been.
Also, I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that minorities had to form their own companies to see themselves represented in games. I also find it telling that you see certain games as men-only or whites-only, and you feel that it's an 'intrusion' when minorities get significant representation in those titles.
Games are supposed to be for everyone. Not one gender, not one ethnicity, not one sexual orientation. Certain games may skew towards a given demographic, but I don't think we should ever act as if welcoming players from other backgrounds is some kind of threat. Life's too short to waste it on exclusion and hate like you do.
Er, what? ME and DA had elements of diversity from the get-go. Arguably the best game in the ME series, ME2, was a practical celebration of diversity. Inclusiveness by itself is not the problem and never has been.
Also, I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that minorities had to form their own companies to see themselves represented in games. I also find it telling that you see certain games as men-only or whites-only, and you feel that it's an 'intrusion' when minorities get significant representation in those titles.
Games are supposed to be for everyone. Not one gender, not one ethnicity, not one sexual orientation. Certain games may skew towards a given demographic, but I don't think we should ever act as if welcoming players from other backgrounds is some kind of threat. Life's too short to waste it on exclusion and hate like you do.
Most gamers? Who the hell are you to say what most gamers want?
The Sims has been one of the more progressive games in recent years and it's been a consistently strong seller for EA; the Dragon Age and Mass Effect games were hits as well, and they've had elements of diversity since the start.
Besides, call me crazy, but I'd like people who aren't white, straight men to feel welcome playing games.
That means giving them characters and roles they can identify with.
And isn't a fantasy game an ideal venue for that? I'm just baffled at how you can be so hateful.
I'm not saying they can't, just that it's a lot easier. It shows that they matter and aren't being shoved to the side. Think about superheroes. Yeah, many people may resonate with Spider-Man's teenage awkwardness, but that doesn't mean it isn't important to have characters like Wonder Woman or Luke Cage. Seeing someone from your background in a prominent role can be confidence-inspiring.
What is a game that men wish to play? I wished to play Life is Strange and it’s sequel. Bought them both on multiple consoles. They don’t really have anything to do me or represent me or my generation. Yet I found them striking and impactful and made me empathize with the characters struggles.ME: Andromeda was an even bigger celebration of diversity, it basically touted out its diversity from every pore of it, even from the uglification of the female protagonist and well, we saw where that trainwreck headed.
Diversity can happen, but when diversity is the driving factor between your end product, your end product will almost always turn bad, like BFV did before it and the onus is on the companies to prove they can tackle diversity and a good game or story, so far the results have been dissapointing.
You are excuse because I am sure you did not realized that when straight white males (TM) wished to feel represented in stories, games, and general media they created those stories, those games, those media, for scratch, from zero and with the intolerance and constant booing and downplaying of the society around them a downplaying that lasts to this day, if I might add.
If any minority wishes to be represented in media, then they are more than free to create their own, or free to support the endeavors that represent them, instead of co-opt and eventually killing the stories white males created.
Nobody stops them, much less, I.
Games for sure are not for everyone, as it had proven time and time again, at least the games men wish to play and the games men wish to play are different, both tonally and narratively wise.
Then much of the world is actually racist given the outrage over people discussing the notion of a diverse cast or whatever in such a negative manner?That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Human imagination doesn't work like that. Good stories are about ideas, and anyone can identify with anything.
The only ones who can't are actual racists.
Bingo!That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Human imagination doesn't work like that. Good stories are about ideas, and anyone can identify with anything.
The only ones who can't are actual racists.
I'm not saying they can't, just that it's a lot easier. It shows that they matter and aren't being shoved to the side. Think about superheroes. Yeah, many people may resonate with Spider-Man's teenage awkwardness, but that doesn't mean it isn't important to have characters like Wonder Woman or Luke Cage. Seeing someone from your background in a prominent role can be confidence-inspiring.
That is a false premise. The expectation of fantasy consumers that aren’t fringe subgenres male power fantasy have decades of expectation of diversity. That is one pillar of the fantasyThen much of the world is actually racist given the outrage over people discussing the notion of a diverse cast or whatever in such a negative manner?
So it's nice these devs aren't part of that so want to have that cast.
Then much of the world is actually racist given the outrage over people discussing the notion of a diverse cast or whatever in such a negative manner?
So it's nice these devs aren't part of that so want to have that cast.
I mean, news flash, minorities are still oppressed in much of the world, even something as simple as being gay has only grown in acceptance in recent times and everyone is far from being as accepting whether in parts of the world that have recognized the equality legally or in others (and just the fact it has to be recognized legally as it wasn't already is fucked up to begin with but anyway).
It's nice to have mainstream media products that show these ideals as the norm. It's not nice to bash these ideals as the reason said media products suck, lol. They can suck, but the ideals aren't the reason.
Political activism to what end? To show diversity is not a bad thing? I can get behind that personally. If you think they already enjoy the same rights and benefits and behaviors towards them then it won't affect you in the least, if you think they don't enjoy that then you would be happy some are promoting it whatever way they can, so, either way you lose nothing, and if they're bad writers and DA4 ends up bad, you didn't lose a good game, they'd be bad whether writing for diversity or not. Not that losing a good game is such a terrible thing compared to the goal even if it doesn't pay off, lol.That is a false premise. The expectation of fantasy consumers that aren’t fringe subgenres male power fantasy have decades of expectation of diversity. That is one pillar of the fantasy
To assert that developers need to go outside of the current expectations to “celebrate diversity” is virtue signaling. I can accept making games about marginalized groups. That type of game should exist. But to hyjack and re-Frame an already diverse genre is nothing but political activism.
No u! That's the level of your discourse there. Lmao. Sorry if you have oppressed and prejudiced against them white friends in China, I hope things change there too then.Your cluelessness is amusing. "Minorities"? What are you talking about? Whites are a minority in China and most of Africa. This concept makes no sense globally. And your entire argument ignores regional differences.
Think before you talk.
I'm not saying they can't, just that it's a lot easier. It shows that they matter and aren't being shoved to the side. Think about superheroes. Yeah, many people may resonate with Spider-Man's teenage awkwardness, but that doesn't mean it isn't important to have characters like Wonder Woman or Luke Cage. Seeing someone from your background in a prominent role can be confidence-inspiring.
Er, what? ME and DA had elements of diversity from the get-go. Arguably the best game in the ME series, ME2, was a practical celebration of diversity. Inclusiveness by itself is not the problem and never has been.
Also, I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that minorities had to form their own companies to see themselves represented in games.
I also find it telling that you see certain games as men-only or whites-only,
and you feel that it's an 'intrusion' when minorities get significant representation in those titles.
Games are supposed to be for everyone.
Not one gender, not one ethnicity, not one sexual orientation. Certain games may skew towards a given demographic, but I don't think we should ever act as if welcoming players from other backgrounds is some kind of threat.
Life's too short to waste it on exclusion and hate like you do.
No u! That's the level of your discourse there. Lmao. Sorry if you have oppressed and prejudiced against them white friends in China, I hope things change there too then.
I mean, news flash, minorities are still oppressed in much of the world, even something as simple as being gay has only grown in acceptance in recent times and everyone is far from being as accepting whether in parts of the world that have recognized the equality legally or in others (and just the fact it has to be recognized legally as it wasn't already is fucked up to begin with but anyway).
What is a game that men wish to play? I wished to play Life is Strange and it’s sequel. Bought them both on multiple consoles. They don’t really have anything to do me or represent me or my generation. Yet I found them striking and impactful and made me empathize with the characters struggles.
So I actually don’t know what you are talking about.
It's nice to have mainstream media products that show these ideals as the norm.
It's not nice to bash these ideals as the reason said media products suck, lol. They can suck, but the ideals aren't the reason
Er, what? ME and DA had elements of diversity from the get-go. Arguably the best game in the ME series, ME2, was a practical celebration of diversity. Inclusiveness by itself is not the problem and never has been.
Also, I'm sorry, but I didn't realize that minorities had to form their own companies to see themselves represented in games. I also find it telling that you see certain games as men-only or whites-only, and you feel that it's an 'intrusion' when minorities get significant representation in those titles.
Games are supposed to be for everyone. Not one gender, not one ethnicity, not one sexual orientation. Certain games may skew towards a given demographic, but I don't think we should ever act as if welcoming players from other backgrounds is some kind of threat. Life's too short to waste it on exclusion and hate like you do.
Okay? That's on them. They could (well, should) have written with a diverse cast in a good way, but didn't. How's that not blamed on bad writing rather than on diversity itself as a concept?