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[SLoWMoTIoN]

Uglier, really? More realistic may be more appropriate. Women in games don't have to look plain, but they also don't have to look like Barbie dolls, you know. And in at least some games, realistic is not only more appropriate, it can make the character more appealing. Part of why Elena in Uncharted works is that she looks and acts like a woman you could know in real life... well, a woman with some athletic prowess and good aim.

My issue is that requests like this come across more as wanting game porn than anything -- I mean, the thread is titled "fan service." It's not asking for Bayonetta so much as it is asking for DOA Xtreme 3.

Realistic compared to real life? The women at my gym, restaurants, malls look better than most western fictional female characters...that were made less attractive on purpose. Are they not real? Also Uncharted is a terrible thing to bring up when you want realistic looks from fictional characters but for them to do things most women can't do! Cue Nadine beating two men with no problem. Then you mention Bayonetta which pretty much takes things to 11 and has the anatomy of a ladder. So ???

There are plenty of western games with attractive females but yeah I'd be nice to see western devs equivalent of A2/2B from nier when it comes to outfits for example. I think devs these days are either: too scared because nowadays thanks to retarded forums like resetera it's pr nightmare, or too "woke" to portrey women like that (because god forbid). I don't know. Most girls I think like to look and dress sexy sometimes..

I can't think of any in the last 5 years.

 

[Sub_Level]

Real talk: Bayonetta is ugly.

nb4 wELL sHe iS HOttER tHaN ANY girl yOU'LL evEr HAve

 

[Bagofdicks]

Perhaps the religious right prudes of the 90s finally got their wish. They just had to wait until their desires were fulfilled by secular liberals. But the result is the same, isn't it?

Yea except it's all the gender confused lefties and feminists that are complaining about it and actually succeeding at censorship these days. Nice try projecting though

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Real talk: Bayonetta is ugly.

nb4 wELL sHe iS HOttER tHaN ANY girl yOU'LL evEr HAve

Her face is fine. Her body was made that way because Japan but she's more of a slenderwoman shaped witch if anything.

 

[Bagofdicks]

edited for not reading your whole post before replying. My bad.

 

[buizel]

Most things we do are to feel better about ourselves, the point is that the notion of women getting that satisfaction from the approval of men is troublesome.

You're misinterpreting what I am saying. Men and Women both get satisfaction when we receive approval from either sexes. Thats why most people try to make an effort to look good.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Yea except it's all the gender confused lefties and feminists that are complaining about it and actually succeeding at censorship these days. Nice try projecting though

https://nichegamer.com/2018/12/13/pennsylvania-state-rep-proposes-tax-on-mature-video-games/
Its both reps and dems. Wake up.

 

[strange headache]

It's asking games to be pandering and crass because you want to stroke yourself while you're playing.

I'm sorry to interrupt your virtue signaling, but what's so "crass" about that? It's a natural urge and what people do in their own private time is neither your frikkin' business, nor for you to judge.

Sure it's gross.

Oh don't pretend like you've never "stroked yourself". You sound like John Harvey Kellogg.

 

[radewagon]

Such concern?

Friend, it's a thread on an internet website. It's not like men are marching through the streets, rioting, demanding boobs in games.

That's odd. I don't recall being overly hyperbolic...

 

[Dunki]

Lara Croft's sexuality (in the original games, not the reboot) was disconnected from her personality and rather obviously there for pandering. Bayonetta... well, her sexuality includes some pandering, but it's obvious that she embraces it. And yes, if a woman chooses to dance nude, that's fine.

And yes, I should acknowledge that bi/lesbian/pan/trans women are out there and enjoy female sexuality in games, too. It's just that, let's face it, the developers reducing women to eye candy in games are usually men. Come to think of it, there aren't many games (certainly not AAA blockbusters) that portray female sexuality through an LGBT lens.

See I do not agree with that. Especially since I think Angelina Jolie was the perfect Lara croft. And even if you want to believe it or not. The developer of the old Tomb Raider never wanted Lara to become a sex symbol. Just like there is now Tons of Overwatch porn, Lara was made a sexsymbol by the community and fans of the series.

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

This is so bad.. the US is getting back to the "good old days" of "censorship and decency board" of the 1930's ... I can't believe this

 

[bilderberg]

Spoiler

Be specific. You keep making definitive statements based on nothing. What parts of her construction make it apparent that her sexuality is "her choice" as compared to someone like Lara Croft, who -- as far as I remember -- was never forced to have large breasts or short shorts in terms of the game lore?


In what way was it "disconnected" from her personality? What should she have said or done instead in order to make it clear that her sexuality was "her choice"?

Once again, be specific. Help me understand the specific things that Lara Croft did or didn't do that disconnected her physical appearance from her personality.

Otherwise, you're just talking nonsense.


You've not answered any of my questions. Just more moralizing.

If you don't like sexy women in games, that's your own moral choice. But if you want to pass it off as a moral standard while pretending to magically know the thoughts and intentions of the developers, voice actors, and game-players involved, you'll have to try harder than that.

But I'm giving you a lot of credit. Your behavior is portraying you as another pathetic Puritan whose life is so shallow that you have to police what other people consume in their entertainment products. And I bet you're doing it because you hate men and would like to restrict them to compensate for your own pathetic life.

I mean, that's what I would say if I had clairvoyance like you. Truthfully, I have no clue why you're standing up for fictional characters so passionately.

You can't argue with these people. They just make up any faux argument without any substantial backing and pass it off as fact. We could create a scenario with examples of Lara Croft "choosing her sexuality" whatever the fuck that means, and it would still be possible to create make belief arguments espousing the creators or gamer's thoughts and feelings in a way that's still "problematic and troublesome." They don't see their own sexism. Male characters are allowed to be anything the creators want them to be, and the only thing people care about is if the character is interesting; either through design, dialogue, action, etc. However, female characters seemingly have a checklist they must pass to not fit hundreds of unsubstantiated, moralist, examples of "problematic." Yet we're the sexist pieces of shit because "male gaze."

 

[petran79]

I pretty much hate all these Otaku dedicated Idol/moeblob/pantyshot-filled echii anime for covering 80% of the new releases and most of them being uninspired trash with few exceptions.

However in Videogames the situation has kind of reversed. Ever since the industry realized that girl gamers existed all along, rather than simply offering fanservice for the other team, they instead started turning everything into a politically correct mess. What few eye-candy we get (mostly from Japan) gets removed by the localizers, because "blood and gore are more ok than showing some extra egotism". The final nail in the coffin is Japan pretty much falling behind and slowly abandoning the Video game industry in favor of mobile trash, and Sony moving over to the Amerikas adopting the puritan ideals of the area.

While in Anime it's the bane of the industry, in video games I kind of miss that stuff.
Anyone remembers how in Ghost in the Shell for PS1, they chose to go with Shirow's sexualised art style, instead of following the ultra serious style of the 1995 movie or the hybrid of the SAC series?

The irony is that I often would read comments that those artists were otakus themselves and were only pandering to an otaku audience. Also that due to their secluded lifestyle and lack with contact of the opposite sex they did lack as artists and were not in the position to draw proportionally accurate women.
One reason that animators would usually choose the video game route because payment was better in contrast to the anime industry. One reason the cream of the crop would opt to work in video games.

Whereas in video games you have usually competent artists that can draw women with more realistic proportion, yet now I hear they should be covered.

So they replaced one excuse with another.

 

[azz0r]

Yes. Your point? Should I get executed for being a straight male?

I can make you hate me even further without even knowing me. I’m also white.

lol.

This response is literally the embodiment of white male privilege.

We've got victimhood, micro aggression and a lack of self awareness I can't comprehend.

...and I'm a white male.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Lara Croft's sexuality (in the original games, not the reboot) was disconnected from her personality and rather obviously there for pandering. Bayonetta... well, her sexuality includes some pandering, but it's obvious that she embraces it. And yes, if a woman chooses to dance nude, that's fine.

Lara Croft used to be a badass, like a comic book character. She was idealized and never supposed to be realistic. Her looks fit perfectly.

PC NuLara is an average and boring woman who is always covered in shit.

 

[Danjin44]

We bunch of these type of thread and answer for all these very simple. "play what you like to play". These days we have games for every taste, if you don't enjoy sexy designs in your games then simply don't play them, there plenty of games out there with none sexy design. There no need one of them disappear off the face of the earth.

I like sexy designs in my games both male and female, now you all can call me "pervert" or "sexist" but I like what I like and I will talk with my money and support what I like.

 

[DeepEnigma]

lol.

This response is literally the embodiment of white male privilege.

We've got victimhood, micro aggression and a lack of self awareness I can't comprehend.

...and I'm a white male.

Chill bro, save all that virtue signaling ass for the rest of us. Straight slaying over here.

 

[The_Mike]

lol.

This response is literally the embodiment of white male privilege.

We've got victimhood, micro aggression and a lack of self awareness I can't comprehend.

...and I'm a white male.

I know it’s modern to hate yourself as a white male in SJW feminist in environments.

But don’t expect every white male to be like this. Some of us are tired of getting the guilt of everything bad in this world.

I’m a white straight male. Why should I apologize or feel guilt over someone like me when I’m not part of it.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

lol.

This response is literally the embodiment of white male privilege.

We've got victimhood, micro aggression and a lack of self awareness I can't comprehend.

...and I'm a white male.

We're all shocked.

 

[Sacred]

lol.

This response is literally the embodiment of white male privilege.

We've got victimhood, micro aggression and a lack of self awareness I can't comprehend.

...and I'm a white male.

Why is that the ones are most offended always the embodiment of what they are demonizing?

 

[noonespecial]

Like what Thiagosc777 said, Lara Croft in the original Tomb Raider games was badass and didn't take any shit from anybody. She was a modern, independent woman who could look like a sex object but certainly did not act like one. Yet, in the new Tomb Raider games (at least, in Rise of the Tomb Raider - I haven't played Shadow of the Tomb Raider) she now comes across as a dependent girl (i.e. not a woman) that isn't as sexualized but comes across as much more of a victim than the original Lara. OG Lara intentionally put herself into danger but this new Lara Croft was just thrown into it.

Shouldn't people prefer the OG Lara to this newer one? Shouldn't the original Lara Croft be more preferable as a role model for girls (and women) as she doesn't do a damn thing for any man she doesn't want to do, is highly independent, very smart, experienced, confident, savvy, talented, and competent? And she also comes across as sexy as well - if/when she chooses to. I mean, she's fully in control and at the mercy of no one.

Not this new Lara Croft though. Guess I just don't get it because I'm "just" a stereotypical middle-aged heterosexual white male but to me they've downgraded Lara Croft to actually make her more befitting of a female forced to become strong versus the OG Lara who seems to have been strong from the beginning.

 

[buizel]

lol.

This response is literally the embodiment of white male privilege.

We've got victimhood, micro aggression and a lack of self awareness I can't comprehend.

...and I'm a white male.

As an English person growing up in Scotland I've been told im responsible for the persecution of Scots all my life, while simultaneously been beaten up and hospitalised from Scots for the sole reason of me being English.

So nah, I'm not buying that shit

 

[Ulysses 31]

...and I'm a white male.

But are you able-bodied, straight, white and male? >.>

 

[mekes]

lol.

This response is literally the embodiment of white male privilege.

We've got victimhood, micro aggression and a lack of self awareness I can't comprehend.

...and I'm a white male.

 

[Elfstar]

Yeah, i think that obvious fanservice in big western games is pretty much done for. Even though the playerbase's demographic for most dedicated gaming didn't actually change that much and it wouldn't hurt sales at all, it would just get too much bad press, and no huge publisher wants to open that can of worms nowadays.
That said, i'm fine with AAA blockbuster productions being overly safe, it's what i would expect from them anyway.

I'm also fine with having more niche games catering to a narrower target audience, videogames are first of all entertainment and most people are perfectly able to recognize reality from fantasy, so i don't really see why a more sexual oriented product should not exist if there's an audience for it out there. It's too bad that Americans get to dictate what's good and what's not for everyone.

Nevertheless, I always found sexualized women in western games pretty boring and kinda monothematic, they never get past the "dominatrix with big tits" trope most of the times, while Japanese games usually tend to cover a wider spectrum of fetishes.

 

[Mr Hyde]

What happened to the "let the developers do what the developers want" that some of you in here are screaming at the top of your lungs? Now that the developer doesn´t wanna objectify and sexualize Lara anymore it´s suddenly "fuck those SJWs and leftist feminists". I guess that shit only applies when it caters to your own personal views. Nothing but a bunch of hypocrites on GAF. Nothing unsual.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

I won't apologize for having a working penis.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

So whats going on guys, is there a secret law that forbids showing the female skin in western games that all western devs had to follow or they will be fired? and with 100% of western AAA games with 0% female Sexualization i have to wonder why western gamers in forums and Social media are still complaining about rampant female sexualization in games? im not from the west so i was just wondering whats going on.

It is a problem so long as not all games are censored.

She is a fictional character. She didn't choose anything. So ascribing a fake "choice" is no justification for her outfit, if that is your criteria.

Fake? We are merely observers, creation is an illusion, there is only discovery. Fiction? reality?
Look into the library of babel and your entire life is there. It is conceivable that somewhere somehow bayonetta, as well as all of fiction, is merely sampling from a 'library of babel' like structure.

 

[Son_of_Zardoz]

So your definition of fanservice is tits? Play some DOA Volleyball or countless games from the east if that's the most important thing for you. Don't realize why it's such a big concern when games/gamers fought for so long to be taken seriously yet now we have come full circle. WHERE ARE MY VIDEOGAME TITS?!

 

[llien]

I'll just be over here respecting gaming's right to grow up and stop portraying most women as dolls for male amusement.

Welp:

1) Sex negative wing won (mostly via mobbing, ostracizing), but it wasn't like that in the past: Feminist Sex Wars (wiki)
2) Erotic book industry, mostly consumed by the other gender, is 1 billion worth: Publishing's Dirty Secret

People need sexual objects, men more often than women and care less about non-visual stuff (because of the nuances about the way humans reproduce, in my humble opinion)

Women are also not that indifferent to looks though, upper body part in particular:


Also quite apparent in erotic fiction:

What happened to the "let the developers do what the developers want" that some of you in here are screaming at the top of your lungs? Now that the developer doesn´t wanna objectify and sexualize Lara anymore it´s suddenly "fuck those SJWs and leftist feminists". I guess that shit only applies when it caters to your own personal views. Nothing but a bunch of hypocrites on GAF. Nothing unsual.

I suspect that most of the "developers don't wanna" results from de facto censorship. Don't cave in and be subjected to endless labeling campaign, see Kingdom Come's example.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Damn. Dwayne Johnson will star in anything, won't he?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Now flip the Today Show genders, and see the hypocrisy and meltdowns of Chernobyl proportions ensue.

 

[bilderberg]

What happened to the "let the developers do what the developers want" that some of you in here are screaming at the top of your lungs? Now that the developer doesn´t wanna objectify and sexualize Lara anymore it´s suddenly "fuck those SJWs and leftist feminists". I guess that shit only applies when it caters to your own personal views. Nothing but a bunch of hypocrites on GAF. Nothing unsual.

No one is screaming. I think we're all typing on key boards or phones. Make points.

 

[Guileless]

That's a good point about shlocky romance novels. I subscribe to a lot of bargaign ebook newsletters, and the covers and titles of the romance books aimed at women are absurdly hilarious. They makes 90s-era videogames look subtle.

 

[bilderberg]

So your definition of fanservice is tits? Play some DOA Volleyball or countless games from the east if that's the most important thing for you. Don't realize why it's such a big concern when games/gamers fought for so long to be taken seriously yet now we have come full circle. WHERE ARE MY VIDEOGAME TITS?!

"most important thing for you." You're not getting away with that straw man.

 

[danielberg]

lol.

This response is literally the embodiment of white male privilege.

We've got victimhood, micro aggression and a lack of self awareness I can't comprehend.

...and I'm a white male.

Wait you know the skin color of people based on what they write on a video game forum, wow thats a amazing magic trick!
Also can you cut out the bullshit recently invented buzzwords and talk like a sane human being?

 

[Razzorn34]

Now flip the Today Show genders, and see the hypocrisy and meltdowns of Chernobyl proportions ensue.

No shit right? You'd see women coming out of the wood work for that one.

 

[InterMusketeer]

games/gamers fought for so long to be taken seriously

???

Why should we give a shit whether other people take games seriously? You're joking right?

And even if I were to take your argument seriously, there exist movies and books and music about tits too. I guess people won't take those forms of media seriously anymore either, huh?

 

[KonradLaw]

CDPR got you covered fam!

And if they tried to make Lara less attractive in Shadow of Tomb Raider they failed. Not much clevage, but I think it was one of the most beautiful female 3D face model I've ever seen,.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Wait you know the skin color of people based on what they write on a video game forum, wow thats a amazing magic trick!
Also can you cut out the bullshit recently invented buzzwords and talk like a sane human being?

So ridiculous criticizing pointing out that SJWs are still constantly complaining about sexy depictions of women in videogames, when most western dev.s portray women in modest clothes. I mean showing that their problem is not that there aren't modest representations of women but that NOT ALL depictions are modest, that call for universal censorship needs to be called out for its BS.

 

[gioGAF]

In witch quite a donwgrade (for me) from the real actress that the character's based upon

Devil may cry 5 also cater for the western market (downgraded female models in game)

I hate it when they do this. Ashly Burch looks great, Aloy looks terrible, totally androgynous. Why doesn't Aloy look like Ashly at all? Representation of real life my a$$.

The problem isn't even really "western" game companies that have drank the Kool-Aid and are doing this, it is that they are going after anyone who doesn't do the same.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Why should we give a shit whether other people take games seriously?

Because if people think video games are for children or are not something that require talent and ability to make, it will hamper the growth of the art form. For instance, if games are for children, then something like GTA shouldn't exist. Without respect, you can not push boundaries. If you can not push boundaries, you can not grow.

And even if I were to take your argument seriously, there exist movies and books and music about tits too. I guess people won't take those forms of media seriously anymore either, huh?

Movies, books, and music all went through their moral panics long before any of us were born - but there was a time when it was very much like now. People complaining about Elvis' sexy, sexy hips being a bad influence on young people. But we got past it somehow, managed to learn nothing from it, and now repeat the same mistakes over and over again in a Sisyphean effort to constantly exert our moral superiority over our fellow man through shame and censorship.

 

[Ka-Kui]

Sexy appearances for women are fine, but there should be a sense of agency to that choice, a positivity to it. Think Bayonetta; she revels in it, she owns it, but she also doesn't just exist as eye candy.

The problem is, the OP and some others don't really seem to care about that. It sounds more like they're just looking for some masturbation material. "An ample amount of cleavage really isn't necessary for this character in this situation? Don't care, I want to jerk it!" You don't have to celebrate that they toned things down, but good gawd, if you're complaining loudly that Black Cat 'must' pour out of her top in a video game, you need a girlfriend... or at least some porn.

Why does a fictional character need agency? Why must sexy design need to be substabtiated by agency? What will happen if it isn't?

 

[danielberg]

nvm the point flew over my head

 

[CatCouch]

I think these conversations are too limited. The idea that western audiences and artists don't like sexual art as much as eastern counterparts is not correct. I live in California and I create erotic art! The US is a huge country and can't be boiled down to black and white views.

I can tell quite a few vocal people don't understand why sexy art exists, it's not a mistake and it's not something to be ashamed of. This is where good "point/counterpoint" opinion journalism would help a lot to bridge the gap we have now. In it's absence, we get an over reliance on personal insults to get an opinion across which just wrecks conversations like this.

Personal insults don't make an argument stronger even if it makes you feel superior. At some point we all will have to let art in games we don't like exist for those who do like it and stop with the "SJW/sexist" insults, they're not true as a whole. Wanting more LGBT representation is not "SJW" and wanting sexy art to continue existing is not "sexist". They can even overlap!

To me, the issue seems clear, though it's just my perspective as someone who is deeply attached to fan service, pin-up and erotic art. We step on each others toes all the time for no reason because too many people have tied their side of the debate to the destruction of the "other".

We should not be arguing that for women to be accepted in gaming we have to eliminate the male orientated games from before. That's not very inclusive. All we end up with is an inability to tolerate each other. It quickly stops involving games at all and becomes deeply personal, like you're being threatened or losing something when your views are not 100% validated. It's a terrible mindset to have.

I think over this last decade we've put too much emphasis on what others do. We didn't use to tie personal values to the creations of others around us but now we increasingly do, at least in our media. I believe it can create a sense of dread in us. A feeling that you are "losing", if that makes sense.

We need a way to lessen the tension. I often see people lash out which just makes everything worse. A fairly recent example I have was someone telling me I was killing Deviant Art by posting a nude sketch (of Bowsette!). What's the solution? I really don't know what I'm supposed to do. I'm not going to stop drawing. The answer most certainly can't be Deviant Art pushing me off the platform.

I hate seeing people believe that things they don't like are taking away from them. There's room for everyone, it's just a toxic mindset that turns us on each other and I believe there is a lot of media out there that exploits this fear.

Thank you very much if you read this! I am not that great at keeping things brief, lol~

 

[12Goblins]

just go buy those hentai games bro

 

[InterMusketeer]

Because if people think video games are for children or are not something that require talent and ability to make, it will hamper the growth of the art form. For instance, if games are for children, then something like GTA shouldn't exist. Without respect, you can not push boundaries. If you can not push boundaries, you can not grow.

GTA was first released in 1997 and I'm pretty sure games were mostly seen as toys back then. Heck, the game was released on GameBoy Color later, and that was definitely seen as a kids' toy. I agree with pushing boundaries, not sure that means others need to take it seriously too though.

Movies, books, and music all went through their moral panics long before any of us were born - but there was a time when it was very much like now. People complaining about Elvis' sexy, sexy hips being a bad influence on young people. But we got past it somehow, managed to learn nothing from it, and now repeat the same mistakes over and over again in a Sisyphean effort to constantly exert our moral superiority over our fellow man through shame and censorship.

I agree. Let's hope this hysteria blows over soon.

 

[gspat]

We are talking about games though.

It's all entertainment.

I suspect the feeling is that video games are lower hanging fruit.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

GTA was first released in 1997 and I'm pretty sure games were mostly seen as toys back then. Heck, the game was released on GameBoy Color later, and that was definitely seen as a kids' toy. I agree with pushing boundaries, not sure that means others need to take it seriously too though.

GTA was originally released on the PC back when the PC wasn't considered something for kids (and if you've ever had to set up a sound card under DOS, you know why). It had games, but the PC wasn't purely for games. The PC had already seen adultish stuff like DOOM and Leisure Suit Larry.

So the platform it was created on wasn't a kid's toy, and I doubt very much the developers of GTA saw it as such. However, in porting it to the PSX and Dreamcast, they tried to take that adult sensibility to something that was traditionally know as kid's gaming machines - technically, Sony tried to distance itself from Nintendo's kid-friendly image early on with stuff like Loaded and Twisted Metal, so even that wasn't a problem. I'm not sure GTA could've been done on a Nintendo console at the time (I'm sure of it).

Basically, the original GTA exists because adult games were allowed to exist when and where it was created. It didn't even push many boundaries compared to its peers. It's really only with GTA3, where its peers were no longer edgy and dangerous, that the idea of adult games influencing kids started to gain traction. That's when the boundaries started to shrink and need a good pushin' - and honestly, it is because GTA3 was so good, and so respected, that it managed to withstand the attacks by Jack Thompson and the morality police.

 

[Dacon]

Well, I'm not sure if she does, really -- in this case it's not as if she's some huge champion of sexual positivity in the game (in the comics it could be another matter).

And think about it... if you're so upset about the absence of T&A in your games to create a lengthy post bemoaning it, what does that say about your priorities? Never mind relationship status... there's this thing called porn that shows way, way more than a bit of cleavage, and it's typically free! You're chasing up the wrong tree if you need your games to serve as titillation.

Are you fucking kidding me? It says absolutely nothing about his priorities, it says nothing other than the fact that he'd like more titillation in his games. Nor should you be attempting to make some ridiculous inference on his relationships from his opinion about fucking videogames jfc. He never once demanded it from anyone, or said he needed it to the detriment of any other aspect of the game.

No he's not chasing up the wrong tree, since he's deliberately pointing out that games provided this kind of content before, but in recent years it's been absent from western games. Why the hell are you getting so personal about this.

Wanting to see some pretty girls in hot outfits isn't a crime, nor is it some hidden desire to want porn in games. Is it so wrong to appreciate the beauty of the female form? Some people, myself included prefer simple titillation to actual pornography.