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[Psykodad]

Can someone ELI5 about why this is even a talking point?

I'm guessing there are a lot of people in this thread who were attracted to tifa as their ideological gf, back when ff7 originally launched. A time when these people were awkward shut-ins who couldn't get a relationship irl and instead fantasised about a cartoon character?

Basically.

 

[Javthusiast]

Unnatural or not, if it was the creative peoples vision to change her design, fine. If they wanted to make them larger and bouncy, that would have been their choice and people should except it and not whine.

The problem is having an ethics department and feel the need to give in to demands of screeching Warieeeeeors in the first place, cause that is taking away the freedom of creators to to what they want.

 

[mckmas8808]

As stupid as all this is, are people seriously arguing that a fake person made out of pixels needs bra support? That a character's design needs to "make sense" in a fantasy game? Come on. Where was all of this stupidity when the original game came out?

All of these arguments are stupid and people are just getting dumber and dumber in their attacks and defensiveness over this subject.

The original game was on the PSone. That console didn't have the power to process jiggle physics that's why.

It's dumb to complain about polygonal boobs, it's dumb to think a fictional characcter needs back support and it's dumb to think a practical/realistic design is objectively better in a FANTASY game.

It's NOT dumb to question non-creative departments altering creative decisions and it's NOT dumb to suspect activist/regulation/ethics groups strongarming and guilt tripping devs (especially japanese) into compliance with western outrage culture.

But how do you know that the creatives fought about the ethics department? What if all of these conversations happened in a meeting and both sides agreed the whole time?

 

[mckmas8808]

The removal of "oversexualized women" in fiction, notably games and comics has been a goal amongst feminist types for what feels like the last decade. It was even a tentpole in Anita's crusade against game. They in particular have a bone to pick with Japanese games.

Okay, so this is REALLY what this whole anger in this thread is truly about. I'm honestly glad someone finally said it and gave light to it. It's not really about the boob size or bounciness. It's mainly about the fight against the "feminist types" that want the removal of "oversexualized women in fiction" as you put it.

Now, this is honestly starting to make sense, because it felt weird to think grown men cared this much about huge boobs on an FF7 character that has a nice sized bust already.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Pixel characters don't need boobs either so....



Well....no I said you're a caveman and immature if you are "ONLY" attracted to exaggerated sexy characters. The "only" part matters. So as the saying goes....."hit dogs holla".



Half this thread is based on people insulting Square for even having an ethics department and allowing them to have any say on the design of a game. Maybe think about why some gamers get so upset because their favorite video game character doesn't have mountains for boobs.

Some people are attracted to large breasts. Some aren't. Just as some are attracted to big dicks while others aren't. You say they are "exaggerated" - which really isn't the case as women like that *do * exist in real life and they aren't some minority. Referring to someone who likes big breasts as "cavemen" is, as I said previously, an asshole thing to say. Do better.

It's just insane we're 12 pages in to this "controversy" because of an ethics department. When this game releases and people play it they will be too engrossed in the story and gameplay. That's how it's always been with this kind of stuff on the internet.

'
It is the same 5-6 people crying about "censorship" and "SJWs" despite the fact that neither had a hand in Tifa's very minor redesign. As I have stated before, these people are acting literally no different than the SJWs they decry. Personally I am more worried about the changes that the Honeybee Inn will see.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Can someone ELI5 about why this is even a talking point?

I'm guessing there are a lot of people in this thread who were attracted to tifa as their ideological gf, back when ff7 originally launched. A time when these people were awkward shut-ins who couldn't get a relationship irl and instead fantasised about a cartoon character?

People who looked up too much fan art and R34 of Tifa think her breasts are much larger than they actually were and are freaking out because she now has a minor design change (sports bra) and think the SJWs are behind it all. That is the TL;DR of it all.

 

[mckmas8808]

Some people are attracted to large breasts. Some aren't. Just as some are attracted to big dicks while others aren't. You say they are "exaggerated" - which really isn't the case as women like that *do * exist in real life and they aren't some minority. Referring to someone who likes big breasts as "cavemen" is, as I said previously, an asshole thing to say. Do better.


'
It is the same 5-6 people crying about "censorship" and "SJWs" despite the fact that neither had a hand in Tifa's very minor redesign. As I have stated before, these people are acting literally no different than the SJWs they decry. Personally I am more worried about the changes that the Honeybee Inn will see.

I think you keep overlooking the part that I put into quotes. I said it's caveman-like thinking if it's the "ONLY" thing you are attracted to in a woman. If nothing turns you on but 36 DDD boobs or more, then yes you're weird. And that's okay. It doesn't mean you need to be arrested.

And to your 2nd point, I am very very interested in how they will handle the Honeybee Inn thing and Cloud's cross-dressing thing.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

Some people are attracted to large breasts. Some aren't. Just as some are attracted to big dicks while others aren't. You say they are "exaggerated" - which really isn't the case as women like that *do * exist in real life and they aren't some minority. Referring to someone who likes big breasts as "cavemen" is, as I said previously, an asshole thing to say. Do better.

I'd say chicks that thin with the absurd tits Tifa (and other's) have in a a lot of fan art are definitely a minority--ignoring fake tits anyway. Hell, even chicks that thin with the size tits she has in her new sports bra design are pretty damn rare. To me, both are unattractive as it's disproportional. Big tits only look good to me if they have the frame (hips, ass, thighs) etc. to match and not look all top heavy. But to each their own of course as everyone finds different things attractive or not. I've never been attracted to game characters, cartoons, drawings etc. so this is all lost on me anyway. In general I find overly sexualized designs off putting and mostly avoid games full of them. Tifa doesn't bother me though (old or new design) and I don't think games need to avoid sexualized characters. It's easy enough for me to just pass on things that don't appeal to me.

It is the same 5-6 people crying about "censorship" and "SJWs" despite the fact that neither had a hand in Tifa's very minor redesign. As I have stated before, these people are acting literally no different than the SJWs they decry. Personally I am more worried about the changes that the Honeybee Inn will see.

Yep, and that's what the ignore feature is for. At least here it's pretty easy to ignore the people who just want to bitch about SJWs vs. Era where you'd run out of space on the ignore user list before muting all the SJWs. Much easier to stick to talking about games here if you so desire than over there or most other places where a ton of posters never shut up about SJW/anit-SJW nonsense.

 

[Kasumi70]

The original game was on the PSone. That console didn't have the power to process jiggle physics that's why.


Dead or Alive 1 on PlayStation 1 say HI.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

After seeing Tifa's design in Dissidia NT, maybe SE should provide 2 options in game: the new design and the classic design. That way we can put this to rest.

Spoiler

Also, I really want her Dissidia NT design put into the remake. It looks so good.

 

[DryPancakes]

Yea I bet the creatives of FF7R really wanted to show some black man titty cleavage and bouncing but then the Ethics Dept told them they had to bind his tits so they put him in a shirt. Western Outrage Culture strikes again! Or actually none of that happened because Tifa's tits are the only tits anybody cares about

(also, a realistic design is objectively better in a remake where the goal is to portray the human characters as realistically as possible i.e. they could be real life people. inb4 "cloud using big heavy sword" see: jenova cells+skinny guy power fantasy, unlike loose Tifa tits which could only be rationalized as purely sexual fan service)

First you mock the concept of outrage culture and then proceed to prove it.

Singling out and being upset at a design choice for being "purely sexual fan service" is the very definiton of western outrage culture, thank you for proving my point.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

I doutb there is a single person on this board more fond of boobs than I am and I can state that Tifa's design is glorious. Pixel perfection. Not only attractive but the kind of looks I would expect from a girl both sporty and sexy.

I think we are baiting too much into the ethics department narrative. They were suggesting that the sky should be blue. Ok, duly noted.

 

[Airola]

Did you not see these gifs with how boobs with with different clothing?

This is stupid.

Let's assume the only thing people care about is the boob size and they are angry/frustrayed/annoyed solely because of boobs looking smaller, and no-one really cares about the "ethics" thing.
If someone expects to see clearly visible big boobs and gets to see a woman with big boobs but hidden under a thick layer of winter clothes and is disappointed that the boobs don't look big, it makes no sense to tell him "hey, the boobs are still as big under that shirt than they are without that shirt." How does that help?
Let's assume someone is expecting to see pretty face of some anime waifu, but the new design is the same woman but with face mostly covered. It doesn't make any sense to say she's still the same woman but you just can't see the face so there's no reason to be disappointed.

Now, let's bring back the ethics thing. Imagine the face covering has happened and someone from the team tells it was suggested by an ethics team. Then people start to call that out, but some people keep on belittling them, saying "lol, you are just a caveman, hey the face still exists there." See what I'm getting at?

 

[mckmas8808]

This is stupid.

Let's assume the only thing people care about is the boob size and they are angry/frustrayed/annoyed solely because of boobs looking smaller, and no-one really cares about the "ethics" thing.
If someone expects to see clearly visible big boobs and gets to see a woman with big boobs but hidden under a thick layer of winter clothes and is disappointed that the boobs don't look big, it makes no sense to tell him "hey, the boobs are still as big under that shirt than they are without that shirt." How does that help?
Let's assume someone is expecting to see pretty face of some anime waifu, but the new design is the same woman but with face mostly covered. It doesn't make any sense to say she's still the same woman but you just can't see the face so there's no reason to be disappointed.

Now, let's bring back the ethics thing. Imagine the face covering has happened and someone from the team tells it was suggested by an ethics team. Then people start to call that out, but some people keep on belittling them, saying "lol, you are just a caveman, hey the face still exists there." See what I'm getting at?

I see what you are getting at. I really do. But at what point do the original people that were upset (about the ethics team thing) have to realize that the original translation wasn't conveyed properly? And that with a better translation, the situation isn't what we thought it was. It honestly sounds like there were no forcing the devs to make smaller boobs. They were only speaking about the clothing Tifa would have on. And the only thing the devs added (compared to what she had before in other games) was a sports bra.

And it's not like we know if the devs disagreed with the ethics department at all. For all we know the artists could have thought it was a good idea or were just neutral on the addition of the sports bra. And since someone said it earlier, this is what Square made Tifa look like in Dissidia Final Fantasy NT (made by Team Ninja).

And this is what she looks like now.

 

[Airola]

I see what you are getting at. I really do. But at what point do the original people that were upset (about the ethics team thing) have to realize that the original translation wasn't conveyed properly? And that with a better translation, the situation isn't what we thought it was. It honestly sounds like there were no forcing the devs to make smaller boobs. They were only speaking about the clothing Tifa would have on. And the only thing the devs added (compared to what she had before in other games) was a sports bra.

And it's not like we know if the devs disagreed with the ethics department at all. For all we know the artists could have thought it was a good idea or were just neutral on the addition of the sports bra.

Sure, who knows if the designers were just as excited about the idea of a "sporty babe" with a sports bra as horny gamers were excited about the idea of big boobs bouncing around. I mean I know for a fact that there are people who are very much into that look. And honestly yeah it makes sense to have the character wear sports bra if the instruction was to constrain the boobs so that they wouldn't be "unnatural" (whatever that means). Or maybe they were completely neutral about it. Who knows.

As I said already, I don't really care about Tifa and the boobs that much. I was a Yuffie guy back in the day and while I love boobs I love them huge and tiny, so the size is not an issue for me at all. I wouldn't have participated in the thread if it was only about Square Enix making Tifa's bust smaller or constraining the boobs in sports bra. It was the ethics part that triggered me and the way I see it, it still isn't really debunked. Big boobs to smaller boobs have just changed into big boobs possibly bouncing around to making sure big boobs stay in control by having something else than too loose shirt (and having the unintended side effect of having them look a bit smaller than expected). The idea of an ethics team controlling either one of them is not that bad of a thing either as I understand if someone has real concerns of perhaps giving too much possibly sexually stimulating things to too young kids, but giving a "this is unnatural" excuse made the whole thing sound laughable.

Now all that said, I guess even the ethics department possibly messing with the design isn't really that big of a deal either. In the end it's just a video game. We've lived through Nintendo controlling a great deal of things from sexiness to religious things since the NES days and were able to enjoy those games no problem, we will be able to deal with this too

And of course there is always the chance that by ethics department they mean something completely else than what it sounds to us.

 

[lukilladog]

Now all that said, I guess even the ethics department possibly messing with the design isn't really that big of a deal either. We've lived through Nintendo controlling a great deal of things from sexiness to religious things since the NES days and were able to enjoy those games no problem, we will be able to deal with this too

But it is, they are getting a lot of negative backlash on the internet, they are getting free press painting themselves as misogynistic, bigots, and partisans, all for the sake of two inches of covered skin. Nintendo earned a console for kids stigma that haunts them up to this day.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I see what you are getting at. I really do. But at what point do the original people that were upset (about the ethics team thing) have to realize that the original translation wasn't conveyed properly? And that with a better translation, the situation isn't what we thought it was. It honestly sounds like there were no forcing the devs to make smaller boobs. They were only speaking about the clothing Tifa would have on. And the only thing the devs added (compared to what she had before in other games) was a sports bra.

And it's not like we know if the devs disagreed with the ethics department at all. For all we know the artists could have thought it was a good idea or were just neutral on the addition of the sports bra. And since someone said it earlier, this is what Square made Tifa look like in Dissidia Final Fantasy NT (made by Team Ninja).

And this is what she looks like now.

The translation does not change one thing really. Essentially the argument is that for a big famous expensive release we have a group that says her less constrained bosom is more ethical than the Dissidia design. Adding a sports bra is the ethical choice.

What is morally ethically wrong about the Dissidia design? I have yet to hear a reason beyond the “shut up, why do you care?”or the “it would be unrealistic”...

 

[mckmas8808]

The translation does not change one thing really. Essentially the argument is that for a big famous expensive release we have a group that says her less constrained bosom is more ethical than the Dissidia design. Adding a sports bra is the ethical choice.

What is morally ethically wrong about the Dissidia design? I have yet to hear a reason beyond the “shut up, why do you care?”or the “it would be unrealistic”...

I think we all are getting too caught up in the word "Ethics". Are we really sure that department is literally called the "Ethics Department"? I'm starting to even question that part of the original story too.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I think we all are getting too caught up in the word "Ethics". Are we really sure that department is literally called the "Ethics Department"? I'm starting to even question that part of the original story too.

Call it the “reducing backlash and/or negative internet outcry by a loud minority and some game reviewers as this game cost us a huge amount of money already, a DLC character for Dissidia is not even comparable haha, to even have a hint of financial risk” department then... potentially it is a better translation .

 

[Astartes]

If someone expects to see clearly visible big boobs and gets to see a woman with big boobs but hidden under a thick layer of winter clothes and is disappointed that the boobs don't look big, it makes no sense to tell him "hey, the boobs are still as big under that shirt than they are without that shirt." How does that help?

If when you see Tifa and the main thing you focus on is that her tits aren’t as big as you want them to be than your looking at her character in the worst way possible.

 

[Astartes]

I see what you are getting at. I really do. But at what point do the original people that were upset (about the ethics team thing) have to realize that the original translation wasn't conveyed properly? And that with a better translation, the situation isn't what we thought it was. It honestly sounds like there were no forcing the devs to make smaller boobs. They were only speaking about the clothing Tifa would have on. And the only thing the devs added (compared to what she had before in other games) was a sports bra.

And it's not like we know if the devs disagreed with the ethics department at all. For all we know the artists could have thought it was a good idea or were just neutral on the addition of the sports bra. And since someone said it earlier, this is what Square made Tifa look like in Dissidia Final Fantasy NT (made by Team Ninja).

And this is what she looks like now.

The redesign is a noticeable improvement

 

[The Mad Draklor]

If when you see Tifa and the main thing you focus on is that her tits aren’t as big as you want them to be than your looking at her character in the worst way possible.

Can't that same argument be said towards the people altering Tifa's tits though?

 

[Psajdak]

I don't know; I would be happy to fuck any kind of Tifa.

 

[Astartes]

Can't that same argument be said towards the people altering Tifa's tits though?

No because that wasn’t the only thing they changed.

 

[Airola]

If when you see Tifa and the main thing you focus on is that her tits aren’t as big as you want them to be than your looking at her character in the worst way possible.

Maybe some people see everything else 100% perfect and would like that aspect of her be perfect for them too. Of course they would then focus on tits if they are telling what could be better. It would be the same thing if everything else was fantastic for them, perfect breasts and all, but for some reason they would've made her face worse. I bet they would focus on the face in that scenario.

That said, you are implying that a certain gaze at certain body parts is less moral or less ethical than gaze at other things. In my opinion it doesn't make a difference if someone is more into looking at feet or face or eyes or hair or hands and hoping they'd be better for their taste than if someone is more into looking at boobs and hoping they'd be better for their taste. This is a fictional animated character we are talking about anyway. I understand if you think gazing at animated boobs is bad for people because it's wrong to be entertained by more or less sexual thoughts maybe for religious reason or something, but I don't understand it if it's because a woman is being sexually "objectified" and that's wrong. I get it if you think getting titillated or sexually aroused by entertainment is bad for people in general, but if this is about the correct way to appreciate women and female form, then I call bullshit on that because there it's just a digital "drawing" we are talking about.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

No because that wasn’t the only thing they changed.

But it is a main thing that SE focused on, to paraphrase you.

 

[stickkidsam]

But it is a main thing that SE focused on, to paraphrase you.

It is fair to point out that the argument goes both ways, but the key thing here is that Tifa's overall design was what changed. They didn't just throw a sports bra on and call it a day. Every character has had a lot of attention put to every detail.

 

[Astartes]

But it is a main thing that SE focused on, to paraphrase you.

Did they focus on making her tits bigger or increasing the jiggle physics? No, they made a positive change based on a note from another department.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Did they focus on making her tits bigger or increasing the jiggle physics? No, they made a positive change based on a note from another department.

But her tits were still a main focus, so why only apply your logic one direction but not in the other direction? It's not a big deal, right, so why the need for a "positive" change?

 

[Valonquar]

Oh you know they will sell Tifa NT DLC for $7.99

 

[Godzilla Emu]

"What is a boob? A miserable little pile of fat. But enough talk… Have at you Square Enix ethics department! Give us Tifa's big boobs back."

 

[DryPancakes]

Did they focus on making her tits bigger or increasing the jiggle physics? No, they made a positive change based on a note from another department.

Subjective.

 

[Arkage]

This will be my last post in this thread because goddamn this is boring.

That's not the goal though? They admitted that they completely revamped Cloud's design to make him resemble the art and design of the original game. They've intentionally stylized the character models compared to how they looked in the psx 2015 reveal to make them look more stylized, which they've also admitted.

Also, if realistic design is the goal, to make characters as realistic as possible, then they already failed with Barret, Cloud, and Sephiroth. None of these characters look like real people.

The ethics dept said it was for realism sake. The devs say it's for realism sake. The characters have been substantially updated to look more realistic, from skin tone to clothing to transparencies to gun arm vibrations to sword swinging spacial relations to body weight heft and a myriad of other things. The change to Tifa was in service to more realism.

The characters look no more stylized than they did in the 2015 reveal. Saying they "completely revamped Cloud's design" is absurd as there is literally no difference between the 2015 and 2019 Cloud beyond making him look a little less skinny/pale, which is ironically in service to realism for swinging a big sword. Or hell it might just be the lighting. And Seph/Cloud/Barret look like real people on the basis of having real proportions, hair style and gun-arm notwithstanding. They can easily be cosplayed to an even more detailed extent than the original game. If a woman with big tits like Tifa were to cosplay her and try to do some serious martial arts kicks or flips for fun at a show, she'd be wearing a sports bra. It really is that simple.

First you mock the concept of outrage culture and then proceed to prove it.

Singling out and being upset at a design choice for being "purely sexual fan service" is the very definiton of western outrage culture, thank you for proving my point.

Nobody is outraged except the people in here harping endlessly about CENSORSHIP and ETHICS DEPT. The other side is literally "get over it" and "it's fine" and "who gives a flying fuck, why is this thread 13 pages long" which would be the opposite of outrage. Also, purely sexual fan service is fine if that's the point of the game or what a series is known for. This is very clearly not the point of FF7 and never has been. FF7 isn't DoA, it isn't an adaptation of an anime titty waifu RPG. And turning it into that would be dumb. Additionally, the black stockings are in service to that very same sexual fan service, and let me hold my ear up to all those Western PC Outrage people starting petitions and bitching: literal silence.

Can someone ELI5 about why this is even a talking point?

I'm guessing there are a lot of people in this thread who were attracted to tifa as their ideological gf, back when ff7 originally launched. A time when these people were awkward shut-ins who couldn't get a relationship irl and instead fantasised about a cartoon character?

You have to view this argument as a game, and the goal is to always have more female T&A in games.

Creatives increase female sexuality? Defend it. (Loose Tits Tifa)
Creatives decrease female sexuality? Criticize it. (Tomb Raider franchise, GoW's naked lady orgies)
Creatives increase male sexuality? Criticize it (Raiden of MGS)
Creatives decrease male sexuality? Don't give a shit. (Barret)

Some in this thread are pretending they're making arguments for creative freedom, but they aren't. They're making arguments for adding more of their narrow sexual preference into games. Which is fine, but at least be honest about it.

 

[DryPancakes]

Also, purely sexual fan service is fine if that's the point of the game or what a series is known for. This is very clearly not the point of FF7 and never has been. FF7 isn't DoA, it isn't an adaptation of an anime titty waifu RPG. And turning it into that would be dumb. Additionally, the black stockings are in service to that very same sexual fan service, and let me hold my ear up to all those Western PC Outrage people starting petitions and bitching: literal silence.

Are you going to say DoA is not the target of a shitstorm of outrage everytime they dare to have a new game? We all know the point of the game means squat, boobs are disavowed by western social standards no matter the "point". And to say only certain games are allowed to have certain type of content is also part of western outrage culture, so once again, thanks for proving the point.

Btw, I didn't say anyone was outraged, I said those decision could have been made to avoid said outrage.

I don't know why you think black stockings are in the same level as any other fanservice sign, it has never come out before as a topic, boobs on the other hand HAVE, every single time, to say it should have the same level of backlash is disingenuous, there's silence in this particular instance maybe because bitching after praising the changes could be seen as hypocritical, almost like an echochambered hivemind, just a guess, still, that's not something you can say often, becasue we all know the PC outrage brigade is nothing but silent.

 

[Dacon]

The characters look no more stylized than they did in the 2015 reveal. Saying they "completely revamped Cloud's design" is absurd as there is literally no difference between the 2015 and 2019 Cloud beyond making him look a little less skinny/pale, which is ironically in service to realism for swinging a big sword. Or hell it might just be the lighting. And Seph/Cloud/Barret look like real people on the basis of having real proportions, hair style and gun-arm notwithstanding. They can easily be cosplayed to an even more detailed extent than the original game. If a woman with big tits like Tifa were to cosplay her and try to do some serious martial arts kicks or flips for fun at a show, she'd be wearing a sports bra. It really is that simple.

Really?

Final Fantasy 7 Remake: Cloud Changed to Favor the Original Character

The Final Fantasy 7 remake's director, Tetsuya Nomura, reveals that the protagonist Cloud Strife sees major changes to better resemble the original character.

gamerant.com

No difference my ass. They redesigned Barret and made him more bulky and like his original design too. Barret has realistic proportions? What? You won't find anyone in real life with big ass anime eyes like the characters in this game. They are clearly stylized. It almost feels like you're trolling here.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Subjective.

My friend, why even reply to bait?

 

[Fuz]

The ethics dept said it was for realism sake. The devs say it's for realism sake.

Because girls with big bosoms don't exist in real life.

 

[RokkanStoned]

The ethics dept said it was for realism sake. The devs say it's for realism sake.

Honestly, you're being naive there. The whole problem as far as I'm concerned is the ethics department weighing in on her breasts and the consequent terrible communication about it. While there's merits in saying that the breasts are more or less in line with artwork and slightly smaller than the in-game battle model (which is why I tried to calm down people about her actual breast size at the announcement), it doesn't really make any sense when talking about a sense of realism. There are tons of things we forego in regards to realism in FF, especially Cloud's sword (your "which is ironically in service to realism for swinging a big sword." makes no sense, because it really doesn't serve realism), because it's fantasy. But "give Tifa a sports bra" to "restrict" her chest is one of the most mental justifications I've seen. "Don't give her jiggling breast" would be the actual thing, while all the talk revolves around stupidity. She's not wearing something that'll really stop her breast from jiggling either, shown by it not restricting that much and that she does moves at crazy speeds. You're really conflating fantasy and realism where it suits you here. Just like some are conflating breast size and design (see Dissidia NT thread).

Also, I do dislike the changes to Barret as well. But the more egregious one on his is the sunglasses. The guy is one of the most emotional ones in the game and they cover his eyes. The belt nonsense (how is removing the metal protecting your gut a better sign of realism than the weird belts?), the shirt they suddenly put on him are bad as well, but those glasses I've whined about since the announcement. Makes no sense in terms of realism either. This kind of weird "realism, but not" thing is just confusing. It's something that would've been easier explained as Nomura redesigns and shouldn't have involved any ethics department weighing in on a character's breasts.

Anyways, Tifa's design is weaker than the original, Barret's design is weaker than the original. The Dissidia NT thread made that very apparent to me at least and made me dislike the redesign more again, after coming to terms with that terrible black undershirt/bra whatever it is.

Nobody is outraged except the people in here harping endlessly about CENSORSHIP and ETHICS DEPT. The other side is literally "get over it" and "it's fine" and "who gives a flying fuck, why is this thread 13 pages long" which would be the opposite of outrage.

See here is where I fundamentally disagree with you. The "get over it" and "it's fine", "who gives a flying fuck" is also the kind of people I disliked in threads where Anna Sarkeesian's critiques were the topic.
The problem in this thread that people are constantly discussing completely different things and they also accept whatever excuse suits them. That's why being principled is of the utmost importance. "Complain about redesign" being a thing to "get over" being applied to all future cases, would that be something everyone that says so would be able to do? Probably not. Same on the other side, those expressing outrage, would they be able to not go "get over it" in a similar future case? probably not. That's where tribal tendencies and convenient outrage shows its face.
Critiquing redesigns, changing of characters, story and combat systems is very much legitimate. Criticising sexualized designs, criticising desexualization of a character, all have merits and are topics to be discussed, whether one's position is for or against. People do however seem to just like these things when it suits them.
If there's no clear attempt at understanding the other part, then a discussion ends up just going on and on. That's more like a debate than a discussion. And it won't go anywhere when people conveniently gives the company all benefits of doubt as the topic suits them.

It's not like anyone's going to cancel their pre-order/not buy the game because of Tifa's and Barret's redesign, but it's a sign of many that the remake might be heading terrible places. It's too bad that redesigns and battle system seems to take up too much of the discussions. There are already far too many concerns, whether character portrayals (Jessie, slightly Aerith), signs of changing up story elements, bad understanding of character relationships, and the overall terrible pacing it'll have and would have to be like 8 episodes in order to not be Midgard frontheavy. Even that won't stop a purchase, but it's definitely something that should temper expectations of someone who played the original.
The topic would've likely died out as long as it hadn't gotten dragged up again. Really, it's the disagreement between two sides that's really keeping it going at all. And that's good, people should discuss something and come with arguments for and against.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

This is hilarious. People are acting like their girlfriend got a boob reduction.

Anyways I like the sports bra look.

 

[Avisari]

Also, purely sexual fan service is fine if that's the point of the game or what a series is known for.

People looking for that might enjoy Subverse by StudioFOW when that'll be released.

 

[mckmas8808]

This is hilarious. People are acting like their girlfriend got a boob reduction.

Anyways I like the sports bra look.

I think we are all realizing that it's not just one side that overreacts to things they don't like in games. Looks like both sides do it when they don't get something they like.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

I think we are all realizing that it's not just one side that overreacts to things they don't like in games. Looks like both sides do it when they don't get something they like.

When was one side asked for changes or removals of games because it offended them?

 

[mckmas8808]

When was one side asked for changes or removals of games because it offended them?

The narrative that "some" people like to put out there is that it's only one side that overreacts to stuff and wants stuff changed. It's always been both sides dating all the way back to GTA: San Andreas when one side didn't want to play as a black lead character. Some at that time even tried to make the argument that Rockstar was trying too hard to look cool.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I think we are all realizing that it's not just one side that overreacts to things they don't like in games. Looks like both sides do it when they don't get something they like.

What is with the artificial framing of "sides"?

One "side" complains about sexualized women and the other "side" complains when women aren't sexualized enough?

Wrong. It's a group of fans -- some of whom care, some of whom do not, and some of whom think the concerns should be dismissed -- critiquing a design. There are no "sides" in this debate, just people speaking up.

Critique has been a part of entertainment and art long before videogames existed. Artificially trying to paint it as "well.... I guess both sides are whiny complainers" reeks of naivety at best and subversive, intentional misdirection at worst. I am not aiming that specifically at you of course, but at the "side" who keeps trying to handwave concerns raised by fans as nothing more than horny teenagers wanting their fantasy girl to have larger tits.

Framing the conversations as one between opposite "sides" comes with the implication that each "side" came to these conclusions because they are on that "side". It diminishes the value of legitimate critique and elevates the drive-by hecklers to the same stature as a fan voicing their opinion. It implies that groupthink is at the core of each "side"s opinion, which is unfounded and dismissive.

 

[mckmas8808]

What is with the artificial framing of "sides"?

One "side" complains about sexualized women and the other "side" complains when women aren't sexualized enough?

Wrong. It's a group of fans -- some of whom care, some of whom do not, and some of whom think the concerns should be dismissed -- critiquing a design. There are no "sides" in this debate, just people speaking up.

Critique has been a part of entertainment and art long before videogames existed. Artificially trying to paint it as "well.... I guess both sides are whiny complainers" reeks of naivety at best and subversive, intentional misdirection at worst. I am not aiming that specifically at you of course, but at the "side" who keeps trying to handwave concerns raised by fans as nothing more than horny teenagers wanting their fantasy girl to have larger tits.

Framing the conversations as one between opposite "sides" comes with the implication that each "side" came to these conclusions because they are on that "side". It diminishes the value of legitimate critique and elevates the drive-by hecklers to the same stature as a fan voicing their opinion. It implies that groupthink is at the core of each "side"s opinion, which is unfounded and dismissive.

I'm only talking about sides, because many on this forum throw the letters "SJW" around alot. I actually agree with your viewpoint 100%.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I'm only talking about sides, because many on this forum throw the letters "SJW" around alot. I actually agree with your viewpoint 100%.

But that's not a "side" as much as it is a specific ideology. What is the opposing ideology or counter-movement to the SJWs? What monolithic group insists on bigger tits, more lewdness, etc in contrast to the so-called "SJW" ideology that words are violence, representation matters, women are being chased out of gaming by these depictions of females, etc? What influence has this missing counter-SJW ideology had on game development and public opinion?

That's why I called it artificial framing of sides. It legitimizes hecklers and worry-warts by implying there are two equal sides who pick and choose what they are offended by, bypassing the necessity of defending either standpoint. In other words, the worry-warts arrive and then immediately accuse those who contradict their points as being the real worry-worts. It's an old trick.

 

[mckmas8808]

But that's not a "side" as much as it is a specific ideology. What is the opposing ideology or counter-movement to the SJWs? What monolithic group insists on bigger tits, more lewdness, etc in contrast to the so-called "SJW" ideology that words are violence, representation matters, women are being chased out of gaming by these depictions of females, etc? What influence has this missing counter-SJW ideology had on game development and public opinion?

That's why I called it artificial framing of sides. It legitimizes hecklers and worry-warts by implying there are two equal sides who pick and choose what they are offended by, bypassing the necessity of defending either standpoint. In other words, the worry-warts arrive and then immediately accuse those who contradict their points as being the real worry-worts. It's an old trick.

Good question. There's a group of people that want there to be "basically" unlimited freedom of consequences for your freedom of speech. This speech can be done in various ways like through verbal speech, art, music, and any other content creation. The counter-SJW people haven't had much influence on game development yet from what I can tell, but they have had a huge influence on public opinion. You can see it all over social media and on forums like here at GAF.

And there's no trick here from me. Those people actually do exist. They are as real as the people that care about representation in video games. Anita Snarkinsoeonson (whatever her last name is) is as real as Colin Moriarty. I think they've both have had some influence on the average public opinion within the video game space.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Good question. There's a group of people that want there to be "basically" unlimited freedom of consequences for your freedom of speech. This speech can be done in various ways like through verbal speech, art, music, and any other content creation. The counter-SJW people haven't had much influence on game development yet from what I can tell, but they have had a huge influence on public opinion. You can see it all over social media and on forums like here at GAF.

Yes, but we are skipping over an important part: the current state of things have been more-or-less been built on a market of freedom of expression. In the past, when concerned mothers clutched their pearls and the Jack Thompsons started to circle the gaming industry like a shark, they were opposed almost universally by gamers.

Now, when the exact same outcome is desired -- albeit, with a different ideology behind it -- suddenly there are "sides" that must be considered and respected. It is how cultural subversion was performed by the root of the SJW ideology over the past century.

To this point, I see no compelling evidence that female representation in videogames is "harmful" in any of the ways that so-called SJWs have warned us all about. Therefore, when it appears that an unproven ideology has had undue influence on yet another game, it is only natural to raise a stink about it.

In the same way that Jack Thompson and "concerned mothers" were derided for trying to impose their uneducated opinion upon the videogame market, we should raise an eyebrow at any uneducated group trying to impose themselves upon the videogame market. Anita Saarkeesian did not enter the industry with any expertise. No one forced her to leap into the fray. No one pushed her to make a video series and to whip up internet hate-mobs. She neglected to educate herself on the industry she was critiquing and to make matters worse, she condemned her detractors and assume bad things about their character.

This is where the fantasy of an opposing "side" appeared. It is borne out of the (incorrect) assumption that both "sides" are legitimate, but this ideology in particular has as of yet failed to prove its legitimacy.

Writing that off and saying "oh, it's just two sides and both sides do it when they don't get what they want" is naive, or intentionally misrepresenting the situation.

And there's no trick here from me. Those people actually do exist. They are as real as the people that care about representation in video games. Anita Snarkinsoeonson (whatever her last name is) is as real as Colin Moriarty. I think they've both have had some influence on the average public opinion within the video game space.

I apologize. I was not aiming the accusation of "an old trick" at you. I am just describing how these things usually go.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yes, but we are skipping over an important part: the current state of things have been more-or-less been built on a market of freedom of expression. In the past, when concerned mothers clutched their pearls and the Jack Thompsons started to circle the gaming industry like a shark, they were opposed almost universally by gamers.

Now, when the exact same outcome is desired -- albeit, with a different ideology behind it -- suddenly there are "sides" that must be considered and respected. It is how cultural subversion was performed by the root of the SJW ideology over the past century.

To this point, I see no compelling evidence that female representation in videogames is "harmful" in any of the ways that so-called SJWs have warned us all about. Therefore, when it appears that an unproven ideology has had undue influence on yet another game, it is only natural to raise a stink about it.

In the same way that Jack Thompson and "concerned mothers" were derided for trying to impose their uneducated opinion upon the videogame market, we should raise an eyebrow at any uneducated group trying to impose themselves upon the videogame market. Anita Saarkeesian did not enter the industry with any expertise. No one forced her to leap into the fray. No one pushed her to make a video series and to whip up internet hate-mobs. She neglected to educate herself on the industry she was critiquing and to make matters worse, she condemned her detractors and assume bad things about their character.

This is where the fantasy of an opposing "side" appeared. It is borne out of the (incorrect) assumption that both "sides" are legitimate, but this ideology in particular has as of yet failed to prove its legitimacy.

Writing that off and saying "oh, it's just two sides and both sides do it when they don't get what they want" is naive, or intentionally misrepresenting the situation.

I the bolded is where "another set of people" (to put it in another way) would flat out disagree with you. They'll explain in many ways how it's been harmful to them and people that they know. I do not like Anita at all! But there are people that follow here on Twitter that share some of her beliefs that aren't crazy and have educated and smart opinions on these things in video games.

I don't see the point in saying all those people have no legitimate points when it comes to video games. That doesn't seem fair.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I the bolded is where "another set of people" (to put it in another way) would flat out disagree with you. They'll explain in many ways how it's been harmful to them and people that they know. I do not like Anita at all! But there are people that follow here on Twitter that share some of her beliefs that aren't crazy and have educated and smart opinions on these things in video games.

I don't see the point in saying all those people have no legitimate points when it comes to video games. That doesn't seem fair.

They are welcome to disagree, but anecdotal evidence is not sufficient for something as serious as claiming that real harm can come to someone because of an entertainment medium.

I could claim your refusal to accept what I have said as "harmful". You are "delegitimizing my struggle". Here I am trying to tell "My story, My truth" and you are tearing me down. In fact, you are "normalizing and providing a platform for" hate-speech that makes me feel excluded from GAF.

See? It's so effortless and just as empty.