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[SonGoku]

. Going over 200W means an even bigger case

The X was a pretty slim console. I dont see how this is an issue all launch consoles featured bigger cases
A launch PS4 sized case with a vapor chamber will be more than enough

more substantial and costlier cooling and higher wattage PSU etc.

Vapor chamber already used on the X and the Pro already has 300W+ PSU

I stand by my opinion that the APU alone won't come close to 180W, though

180W was just a number for arguments sake, could be higher or lower. The point im trying to make is that breaking 200W magical barrier wont make costs skyrocket
If they target $500, a 250W system wont be an issue.
For $500 >200W
For $400 <200W

 

[Fake]

PS4 Pro will be phased out. That's my take on it.

Fair enought. My guess is after some proper revisions, but I get the point.

 

[SonGoku]

I agree with you, they're looking for low price. In the other hand I can see PRO getting a very agressive price cut due to the close release of PS5, in my view point, PRO will need to get an agressive price discount because he will lost the tag of 'premium' console vs PS5

No doubt it will to sell remaining stock but from a costs perspective the regular PS4 can be redesigned to reach a lower price than a redesigned Pro would
Unless Sony found it cheaper to use 20CU Navi and circumcised Zen2 CCD as APU for super slim PS4 vs shrinking the current PS4 APU.

 

[R600]

Thats only 10-20 watts more than Launch ps3 (209w) and that was 14y ago... a 250w nextgen System isnt a miracle

So why did PS4 use 25% less watts, 8 years after PS3?

 

[SonGoku]

So why did PS4 use 25% less watts, 8 years after PS3?

Cheap $400 console at a time where consoles were under severe scrutiny

 

[Negotiator]

Unless Sony found it cheaper to use 20CU Navi and circumcised Zen2 CCD as APU for super slim PS4 vs shrinking the current PS4 APU.

Zen 2 cores and Navi CUs use more transistors than Jaguar cores and GCN 1.1 CUs. There's no way they could reach 110mm2 (dirt cheap, high yields).

So why did PS4 use 25% less watts, 8 years after PS3?

Because Sony was an almost bankrupt company 7-8 years ago, PS+ online paywall didn't exist, PSN digital sales were abysmal and lucrative F2P games like Fortnite didn't exist either. Last but not least, the glorious PCMR was preaching "consoles are dead" (gotta love their crystal ball skillz, eh?).

Sony was not confident that the PS4 would sell (same for Switch, Nintendo lowballed on purpose):

We don't know why PS4 is selling - Yoshida

The good news for Sony Computer Entertainment Worldwide Studios boss Shuhei Yoshida is that the PlayStation 4 sold thro…

www.gamesindustry.biz

Remember Kutaragi's excessive confidence during the PS3 era? I 'member... his controversial stance took a heavy toll on PS4 design, for better or worse.

 

[SonGoku]

Zen 2 cores and Navi CUs use more transistors than Jaguar cores and GCN 1.1 CUs. There's no way they could reach 110mm2 (dirt cheap, high yields).

True but i imagine they could gut Navi to reduce transistor count, and using a existent 7nm design vs shrinking brings cost savings
Unlikely i know, but possible?

 

[Farrell55]

So why did PS4 use 25% less watts, 8 years after PS3?

You really dont know that?
Sony hast lost billions with the ps3
Because of costly cell+rsx and blu ray... it eat off a Big chunk of ps1&ps2 Profits! Thats the reason they developed the ps4 as most cost effective as possible

 

[llien]

Soo, if options companies have are:

2-3TF less, for $100 less, #youaresayingthat which would be, say, $400 vs $500 console, people would go with the more expensive one?

 

[Negotiator]

Soo, if options companies have are:

2-3TF less, for $100 less, #youaresayingthat which would be, say, $400 vs $500 console, people would go with the more expensive one?

People (enthusiasts) who want a "premium experience" (as Sony puts it)?

With $100 more you can also afford better cooling (as is evident by XB1X).

 

[llien]

People (enthusiasts) who want a "premium experience" (as Sony puts it)?

No, people as "majority of buyers".

 

[R600]

Mind you for $400 I would expect SSDless, RTless 7TF machine.

You would have pretty much downclocked $350 GPU ($150 more expensive then equivalent PC one found in PS4), 8 core Zen2 instead of underpowered mobile CPU found in PS4 and 16GB of RAM.

Fof $500 I would expect ~9TF GPU with RT hardware and SSD.(which is top what we are getting btw).

 

[vpance]

If that's EUV then the chances that the PS5 is not would fall to near zero imo. But where was that rumor from?

Especially with "best wafer pricing in the industry", surely combining orders for that.

It was from Reddit. The poster also talked about PS5 having an HBM + DDR4 setup, and how Sony got a good deal on memory chips. This was back in April I think.

 

[SonGoku]

Fof $500 I would expect ~9TF GPU with RT hardware and SSD.(which is top what we are getting btw).

Top on DUV is 11.4TF
9TF could be done for $399

 

[Negotiator]

No, people as "majority of buyers".

The majority of buyers will probably buy a PS4 Super Slim, since it will be cheaper, it has a bigger library and cheaper games.

Personally I expect cross-gen games to be released until 2022-2023 at least, so the PS4 is here to stay for a long time (almost a decade).

Mind you, I'm talking about 3rd party devs that will want to milk the PS4 100m+ install base as much as they can, not 1st party tentpole games (these games are specifically made to sell consoles, they don't care about being profitable).

It was from Reddit. The poster also talked about PS5 having an HBM + DDR4 setup, and how Sony got a good deal on memory chips. This was back in April I think.

There's a contradiction in the bold part IMHO.

A "good deal" on memory chips would mean that both PS5 and PS4 SS will use GDDR6 chips (economies of scale).

I'm not discounting the leaker, maybe he's right about Samsung 7nm EUV, but at the same time maybe he's wrong about HBM/DDR4 (there are many reasons this doesn't make sense).

Even PS4 early leaks back in 2011-2012 were 50% right, 50% wrong, so we gotta filter the noise out of the signal.

 

[Racer!]

Spoiler

RT is deeply connected to the GPU pipeline shaders and tmus
Even if you could separate it on it own chip, the latency and bandwidth penalty would negate any advantage


We have now 3 different companies (Nvidia, AMD, PowerVR) to judge their respective RT approach, all of them deeply integrated into the GPU pipeline.
Haven't seen anything that suggests a discrete RT die would make sense.

I wouldnt discard it all together. There are going to be need for more than what this patent describes. Some sort of AI denoising and maybe move the fixed functions to a dedicated chiplet. As a matter of fact, I think they have to if they are going to be able to have it as something useful. Also, something tells me that the memory solution is going to be much more exotic than just a pool of GDDR6 this time around.

 

[sonomamashine]

No, people as "majority of buyers".

people need to understand that the majority of people buy cheaper products, big companies don't do niche

Mind you for $400 I would expect SSDless, RTless 7TF machine.

You would have pretty much downclocked $350 GPU ($150 more expensive then equivalent PC one found in PS4), 8 core Zen2 instead of underpowered mobile CPU found in PS4 and 16GB of RAM.

Fof $500 I would expect ~9TF GPU with RT hardware and SSD.(which is top what we are getting btw).

i don't think that it will be 500/499$, but more like 449$ at best, they don't gonna mess sales momentum.
8.7tf - 9.1tf - 9.5tf is where is see it.

 

[SonGoku]

Some sort of AI denoising and maybe move the fixed functions to a dedicated chiplet. As a matter of fact, I think they have to if they are going to be able to have it as something useful. Also, something tells me that the memory solution is going to be much more exotic than just a pool of GDDR6 this time around.

Patent already covers specialized hw no idea about AI hw though
Problem with separate chip is the latency and bandwidth penalty would cripple its performance
Unless HBM3 is available in time Sony will go with GDDR6 as well

people need to understand that the majority of people buy cheaper products, big companies don't do niche

A powerful $500 console is more appealing to early adopters than a $400 underpowered console

 

[Racer!]

Patent already covers specialized hw no idea about AI hw though
Problem with separate chip is the latency and bandwidth penalty would cripple its performance
Unless HBM3 is available in time Sony will go with GDDR6 as well

A powerful $500 console is more appealing to early adopters than a $400 underpowered console

HBM3 is my bet. That could get the total bandwith up to the earlier rumors of around 800gb/s.

Havent gone through all of the patent, it describes the denoising hardware? I have a hard time imagining the ray tracing on a APU, and have useful performance.

As I understood, it talked about the bounding volume hierarchy.

 

[sonomamashine]

Patent already covers specialized hw no idea about AI hw though
Problem with separate chip is the latency and bandwidth penalty would cripple its performance
Unless HBM3 is available in time Sony will go with GDDR6 as well

A powerful $500 console is more appealing to early adopters than a $400 underpowered console

you need to check history, didn't you see that graph in another thread
i got the feeling that you'r going to get mad when they announce next gen specs, you wont be an early adopter that for sure.

 

[Negotiator]

Also, something tells me that the memory solution is going to be much more exotic than just a pool of GDDR6 this time around.

A unified GDDR6 pool keeps things simple. APUs have to support HSA + hUMA.

Cerny pondered with the idea of 128-bit GDDR5 + ultra-fast eDRAM (1TB/s) on the PS4, but it would complicate programming quite a bit and ultimately it was abandoned.

Lots of memory pools doesn't make things easier and PS3 is a testament to that. Even XB1's eSRAM requires more effort from programmers.

Regarding HBM3, do we have any evidence if it's being mass produced by anyone?

 

[SonGoku]

it describes the denoising hardware?

No

I have a hard time imagining the ray tracing on a APU, and have useful performance.

Thats why 11TF MIN needed, It should be useful for case by case scenarios
I remember someone posted about APUs being ideal for RT

you need to check history, didn't you see that graph in another thread

A $500 Kaiju will sell 10+ mill in its first year no problem.

got the feeling that you'r going to get mad when they announce next gen specs, you wont be an early adopter that for sure.

In the unlikely scenario they release underpowered consoles, i'll wait for the $299 price point with a decent library of discounted games
Win win either way

Regarding HBM3, do we have any evidence if it's being mass produced by anyone?

HBM3 is a wild card
A unified 24GB pool of HBM3 would be a megaton for sure.

 

[Negotiator]

VLSI 2018: Samsung's 2nd Gen 7nm, EUV Goes HVM

A look at Samsung’s 2nd generation 7nm process that was recently disclosed at the 38th Symposium on VLSI Technology.

fuse.wikichip.org

TL;DR: it's overall cheaper.

 

[sonomamashine]

HBM3 is a wild card
A unified 24GB pool of HBM3 would be a megaton for sure.

HBM cost is ridiculous, wandering how much people gonna keep throwing into that box.

 

[SonGoku]

HBM cost is ridiculous, wandering how much people gonna keep throwing into that box.

Im not betting on it, but scales of economy apply and it would be a megaton for sure

 

[Racer!]

Thats why 11TF MIN needed, It should be useful for case by case scenarios
I remember someone posted about APUs being ideal for RT

Its not that it isnt ideal. The best would be to have everything on the soc. The problem is die size/cost.

 

[Racer!]

HBM cost is ridiculous, wandering how much people gonna keep throwing into that box.

Thats the reason for HBM3. Its mission is to be a cheaper HBM solution.

 

[vpance]

HBM3 is my bet. That could get the total bandwith up to the earlier rumors of around 800gb/s.

Havent gone through all of the patent, it describes the denoising hardware? I have a hard time imagining the ray tracing on a APU, and have useful performance.

As I understood, it talked about the bounding volume hierarchy.

Unknown if they go HBM for either for pure high performance reasons or due to their feelings on split pools (less contention for bandwidth between CPU and GPU for example). If it means anything the 2080 only has 448GB/s. Maybe going much higher than that is overkill.

Here's a table of potential choices for HBM setups if they go with Samsung:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14110/samsung-introduces-hbm2e-flashbolt-memory-16-gb-32-gbps

Lines up with what the reddit leaker was talking about. Of course, maybe he just read an article like this one and made up some fantasies based off it. lol

 

[Negotiator]

Thats the reason for HBM3. Its mission is to be a cheaper HBM solution.

Correct: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/08/hbm3-details-price-bandwidth/

But there's no high-volume manufacturing (unlike EUV) for it yet, that's why I'm not betting on it.

 

[Mass Shift]

VLSI 2018: Samsung's 2nd Gen 7nm, EUV Goes HVM

A look at Samsung’s 2nd generation 7nm process that was recently disclosed at the 38th Symposium on VLSI Technology.

fuse.wikichip.org

TL;DR: it's overall cheaper.

Oh the irony of it looking like a Pac man maze.

 

[Racer!]

Correct: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/08/hbm3-details-price-bandwidth/

But there's no high-volume manufacturing (unlike EUV) for it yet, that's why I'm not betting on it.

It was never ment to be. release date was always late 2019, 2020....

 

[SonGoku]

Its not that it isnt ideal. The best would be to have everything on the soc. The problem is die size/cost.

RT must be on the GPU die for decent performance, APU has extra added benefits for RT
Even on DUV die size won't be too crazy: ~380mm2

Lines up with what the reddit leaker was talking about.

tbh the reddit leak triggers me, its a shitty compromise: 8GB of mediocre hbm and 16gb slow ass ddr4. Much rather have 20GB GDDR6 @600+GB/s

Correct: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/08/hbm3-details-price-bandwidth/

But there's no high-volume manufacturing (unlike EUV) for it yet, that's why I'm not betting on it.

Can you explain how stacks add together:

HBM3 will double density of the individual memory dies from 8Gb to 16Gb (~2GB), and will allow for more than eight dies to be stacked together in a single chip. Graphics cards with up to 64GB of memory are possible.

2*8= 16GB
Nowhere close to 64GB

 

[Hawking Radiation]

So what's the latest on these next gen machines?

Any sort of half exciting news?

A little Off topic but how can i change my username? I tried searching through profile settings but find nothing

 

[Imtjnotu]

How dare you let this thread slip to page 4 @gokuson

 

[bitbydeath]

So what's the latest on these next gen machines?

Wait til PSX.

Any sort of half exciting news?

Nope, just endless speculation.

A little Off topic but how can i change my username? I tried searching through profile settings but find nothing

PM Evilore

 

[SonGoku]

How dare you let this thread slip to page 4 @gokuson

Those kugo cores won't write themselves
But seriously there's no new info to discuss , Navi architecture presentation will give us something to bicker about.

 

[LordOfChaos]

TSMC Announces Performance-Enhanced 7nm & 5nm Process Technologies

www.anandtech.com

 

[mckmas8808]

TSMC Announces Performance-Enhanced 7nm & 5nm Process Technologies

www.anandtech.com

So it's really happening!

 

[llien]

TSMC Announces Performance-Enhanced 7nm & 5nm Process Technologies

www.anandtech.com

Still DUV, right?

While Samsung is quite ahead, at least as far as claims go.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Still DUV, right?

While Samsung is quite ahead, at least as far as claims go.

7nm is DUV
5nm is EUV

 

[vpance]

Still DUV, right?

While Samsung is quite ahead, at least as far as claims go.

I've read that Samsung's EUV isn't as good as TSMC, density wise. Like not even as good as TSMC's DUV. Which probably explains why they're offering such cheap prices for it.

 

[llien]

@Sycomunikee vpance
Thanks guys, now I'm even more confused.

Weren't the last dozen+ pages about 7nm EUV at TSMC?
And ain't it curious that nV decided to opt for inferior Samsung process?

 

[Imtjnotu]

@Sycomunikee vpance
Thanks guys, now I'm even more confused.

Weren't the last dozen+ pages about 7nm EUV at TSMC?
And ain't it curious that nV decided to opt for inferior Samsung process?

They have both DUV and EUV available for production. It's just to the client to choose which one they want to use

 

[SonGoku]

While Samsung is quite ahead, at least as far as claims go.

TSCM's 7nm EUV entered mass production last month.

Weren't the last dozen+ pages about 7nm EUV at TSMC?

1. N7P (DUV) is design compatible with N7 designs and offers 10% power efficiency and no density increase
2. N7+ (EUV) is not design compatible with N7 designs and offers 10% power efficiency and 20% density increase

And ain't it curious that nV decided to opt for inferior Samsung process?

NVIDIA stated it will use both, though its not entirely clear if Samsungs 7nm EUV is on par or inferior to TSCMs 7nm EUV

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Jesus, I can't wait for SSD in PS5.

Just yesterday i fit a Samsung 1TB SSD to my PS4 Pro and HOLY SHIT (and this is no exaggeration) the difference in performance is night and day.
On my PS4 Pro's stock drive when i'm in a game and I quickly need to exit to the menu there were delays, sometimes a few seconds and i'd have to wait until the menu fully loads, then going back into the game would also be a delay.
The Division 2 took minutes to boot up.

Now Division 2 like boots up in 1 minute 20 seconds flat. I exit the game to main menu and instantly im on my main PS4 dashboard, then I click to enter Division 2 again and instantly i'm back in the game. No loading or pausing or freezing or waiting for the game to load and unload. Its INSTANT. Then nagivating through menu's is instant. I have not come across any hang ups at all. I even tried to open random things as fast as possible in an effor to see if i could get some wait times or long pauses and nothing.

The SSD has completely transformed my console. I'm absolutely blown away and I can't imagine the speed of the custom SSD's in both next gen consoles.
I LOVE IT.

 

[mckmas8808]

Jesus, I can't wait for SSD in PS5.

Just yesterday i fit a Samsung 1TB SSD to my PS4 Pro and HOLY SHIT (and this is no exaggeration) the difference in performance is night and day.
On my PS4 Pro's stock drive when i'm in a game and I quickly need to exit to the menu there were delays, sometimes a few seconds and i'd have to wait until the menu fully loads, then going back into the game would also be a delay.
The Division 2 took minutes to boot up.

Now Division 2 like boots up in 1 minute 20 seconds flat. I exit the game to main menu and instantly im on my main PS4 dashboard, then I click to enter Division 2 again and instantly i'm back in the game. No loading or pausing or freezing or waiting for the game to load and unload. Its INSTANT. Then nagivating through menu's is instant. I have not come across any hang ups at all. I even tried to open random things as fast as possible in an effor to see if i could get some wait times or long pauses and nothing.

The SSD has completely transformed my console. I'm absolutely blown away and I can't imagine the speed of the custom SSD's in both next gen consoles.
I LOVE IT.

I smiled reading this whole post.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

I smiled reading this whole post.

And my post is really no exaggeration. I strongly urge anyone who has a PS4 to fit an SSD.

Like the difference is so massive, I don't feel like i'm using a console anymore. Everything is snappy AF.
What a wonderful user experience i am now having.

Just another example of performance improvement:
in the settings menu (on my stock drive) i could click on Storage and then the game would calculate how much storage i have left and i could not interact with my drive in that menu. Like you have to wait for the system to be done calculating before opening up the storage to see how many apps you have etc etc.
This process feels like it can take upto half a minute (30 seconds)

Now with the SSD its like 3-4 seconds and BAM, I'm in my storage looking at how many apps, games etc i have installed.
UNBELIEVABLE.

Fellas, ladies, get an SSD NOW !!!!
My SSD make and model is:
1TB Samsung 860 QVO 2.5" SSD



*Apologies for the post. I want to share my experience with you guys so you are also made aware of the benefits of this kind of storage solution. I do not mean to hijack this thread or discussion*

 

[sonomamashine]

F

And my post is really no exaggeration. I strongly urge anyone who has a PS4 to fit an SSD.

Like the difference is so massive, I don't feel like i'm using a console anymore. Everything is snappy AF.
What a wonderful user experience i am now having.

Just another example of performance improvement:
in the settings menu (on my stock drive) i could click on Storage and then the game would calculate how much storage i have left and i could not interact with my drive in that menu. Like you have to wait for the system to be done calculating before opening up the storage to see how many apps you have etc etc.
This process feels like it can take upto half a minute (30 seconds)

Now with the SSD its like 3-4 seconds and BAM, I'm in my storage looking at how many apps, games etc i have installed.
UNBELIEVABLE.

Fellas, ladies, get an SSD NOW !!!!
My SSD make and model is:
1TB Samsung 860 QVO 2.5" SSD



*Apologies for the post. I want to share my experience with you guys so you are also made aware of the benefits of this kind of storage solution. I do not mean to hijack this thread or discussion*

Feel free to flood this thread, i know someone who wants is up, its dry these days.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Feel free to flood this thread, i know someone who wants is up, its dry these days.

 

[bitbydeath]

1TB Samsung 860 QVO 2.5" SSD

Didn’t realise they were that cheap now.
$169AU, not bad at all.