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[ZywyPL]

You must be thick as mince to not understand that this direction isn’t beneficial to people who are gamers in the long run.

But who am I to understand? I really don't have to, it's none of my business, I'm just and end consumer like you and billions of others, but the people who actually should understand, a.k.a. those big publishing companies, they have all the data, more than you can ever imagine. and they see where the revenue comes from, where and on what people spend their money for. And obviously, since the early PS360 era of calling people "casual players" for playing motion controlled games, web browser games, smartphone games etc.supporting those people in the "long run" turned to be THE strategy to follow, none of the gaming segment was so strong like today, be it PC, consoles, handhelds, and so on, gaming as a whole is already THE biggest entertaining industry on the planet.


But then again, maybe you're right, maybe everyone in the world is wrong, and you, a random guy on the internet, is right?

 

[Dory16]

Ok so let me ask you this, is the example that is the subject of this thread (if true) not evidence enough that a top down approach can cause significant problems during the development cycle?

If they did it the other way round they wouldn't be having these issues, that's almost certain.

Trade offs. They would be fine on the One but the game would be less impressive and attract less interest. I don't believe that this is really your preferred option. You seem to want to make a case about Xbox's next gen strategy being flawed instead of acknowledging that said strategy is in line with how game creators produce great games, e.g. Cyberpunk

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

I’m being sarcastic guys.

What you posted is not far off what some people believe in here when it comes to scaling

 

[NickFire]

I understand the scaleability argument, but it seems to me people are running with it past the goal posts and well out of the stadium. Impossible for me to believe that there won't be adverse effects. I feel like scaleability is next gen's version of cloud power.

 

[Hendrick's]

All PC games must be constrained as well.

 

[NT80]

It’s actually beyond embarrassing that people think this is some new thing. I guarantee you that if Sony had said this first, there would be no problem, at all.

I would've been way more disappointed if Sony had said this considering their 1st party developers. It's usually them that get the most from the new system and best show off the what it can do. The difference from the last gen is locking all the 1st party devs out of next gen exclusives for possibly up to 2 years after it comes out. I'm not clear if this is up to 2022 or 2023.

 

[Hinedorf]

Only 1 group of people to blame for this, GAMERS. (about to be insulting but honest) All you poor video gamers advocating for cross generation play is why we'll need a upgraded console mid-generation just like with ps4 pro. And why? So the poor video gamers who don't spend their money can play all the old titles they couldn't afford last generation, sorry I don't care about your existence one bit, you're a problem to the ecosystem of those who spend money regularly for video games.

I'll say it again, cross generation play is the absolute biggest mistake for EVERYBODY.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

"Guys, designing games to work on an N64 is totally fine because it can scale"

 

[ethomaz]

I’m being sarcastic guys.

It is because a lot of GAFers believes scallability is that magical even when their best example (PC) is a mess where you need to do your own tests to find the optional spot and it is limited to a range of hardware.

 

[ThaMonkeyClaw]

"Guys, designing games to work on an N64 is totally fine because it can scale"

Apparently all you have to do is press a button!

 

[Thickandblack]

Earlier this month Xbox Game Studios head Matt Booty confirmed the decree that all their new next gen content must also work on the original 2013 Xbox One.

The first real warning sign that this may gimp content and prove difficult or even untenable for devs came today.

Speaking in a podcast about CD Projekt Red's decision to delay Cyberpunk 2077, insider Borys Niespielak "strongly confirmed that the biggest problem is Xbox One (2013 model) and the game there is extremely unsatisfactory."

If a current gen game (albeit a particularly ambitious one) like Cyberpunk 2077 is struggling to work in a satisfactory way on the OG Xbox One console then how will Microsoft's all-singing all-dancing next generation line-up work on their aged console? If the decree stands then will developers be forced to curb and bridle their ambitions for the Xbox Series X from the off?

Is any gamer happy about this decree? Is their a bright side for buyers of the Xbox Series X, because personally I am struggling to see it?

Cyberpunk 2077 delayed because of current gen consoles, new source claims

According to a Polish insider Borys Niespielak, the main reason for Cyberpunk 2077 delay lies in current-gen consoles, which are reportedly not powerful enough to run the game properly.

www.altchar.com

Unfortunately, this is exactly why I will be going PS5 next gen. Sucks for PS5 owners too cause now cross platform games will have to run on xbox one, so they will be gimped.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

I feel like this is classic FUD. Calm down and wait for the full details on this policy before getting bent out of shape over potentially nothing.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

I understand the scaleability argument, but it seems to me people are running with it past the goal posts and well out of the stadium. Impossible for me to believe that there won't be adverse effects. I feel like scaleability is next gen's version of cloud power.

The problem with the lazy 'scaling' defence is staring us in the fucking face. You don't have to be a Rasberry Pi enthusiast to understand the problem:

Xbox One - 1.3tflops, netbbok CPU and HDD

Xbox Series X - 12.2tflops, Ryzen 7nm CPU and uber-fast SSD.

If you want to make games with even a small amount of ambition and decent scope whilst trying to scale well between the two platforms above, you're fucked as a developer. We as gamers lose out as this incentivises devs to scale back any ambition or boundary pushing scope, and instead we're even further along the line of a games landscape dominated by yearly COD, Forza, FIFA ad infinitum, but this time with sharper graphics and higher fps.

The publishers like MS and EA would love this shit because these games are safe bet money-making machines, full of microtransactions and are simple development projects as the dev teams have been making similar entries in the franchises for a decade or more.

 

[Monkeygourmet]

But who am I to understand? I really don't have to, it's none of my business, I'm just and end consumer like you and billions of others, but the people who actually should understand, a.k.a. those big publishing companies, they have all the data, more than you can ever imagine. and they see where the revenue comes from, where and on what people spend their money for. And obviously, since the early PS360 era of calling people "casual players" for playing motion controlled games, web browser games, smartphone games etc.supporting those people in the "long run" turned to be THE strategy to follow, none of the gaming segment was so strong like today, be it PC, consoles, handhelds, and so on, gaming as a whole is already THE biggest entertaining industry on the planet.


But then again, maybe you're right, maybe everyone in the world is wrong, and you, a random guy on the internet, is right?

People are fat and eat junk food trash...

Are they right?

 

[oagboghi2]

they said its only for THE FIRST YEAR of the console. A SINGLE YEAR. not even a couple of years lol.

AND its only FOR MICROSOFT FIRST PARTY GAMES

calm down

the first year of XSX will be gimped.

 

[ZywyPL]

Sony Ponies like you fail to understand how scaling works. Scaling is as easy as pressing a button, if it doesnt run well you just press a button to make it 1080p, and if that doesnt work you press another button to make it 720p. Things Like GPU Power, amount of RAM, etc arent as importnat anymore because xcloud will be doing alot of the heavy lifting. Devs, especially cyber punk devs, are just lazy nowdays. Microsoft has some of the best, most hard working devs in the world so thats while theyll easily be able to scale and downport their games cross generations. Im not a developer or anything but im surprised how many of you dont understand this.

But what you say applies only to GPU/RAM restraints, where you can turn down just the resolution/textures alone and call it a day, but you can't tweak down things like AI, physics, destruction etc. so easily. It wouldn't be so bothering if we were talking about 2x more powerful CPU, so the newer games could be running at 60FPS, and the older hardware could do the same stuff at 30FPS, but we are talking about 4x the processing power difference, potentially 8x if the multithreading rumors turn out to be true. So it will be a really damn hard task for the devs to make games that benefit from the new hardware, and at the same time can reasonably run on the old-gen consoles. The only way I can see it being doable if that on older hardware some/most of the physics would simply be completely turned off, so yeah, the games would run but with completely static worlds like in PS2 era.

People are fat and eat junk food trash...

Are they right?

You just don't get it, do you? It doesn't matter for the companies, it brings them money, that's what matters, in any business on the planet for the matter. If you don't like that direction then quit gaming and find yourself better ways to spend time, simple. Because you are not in position to change anything (maybe that's what frustrates you?), and being angry at everybody hurts no one buy yourself.

 

[Bolivar687]

It would be really awesome if this actually pushed more developers to make Sony console exclusives.

 

[TBiddy]

It would be really awesome if this actually pushed more developers to make Sony console exclusives.

Explain again why Microsofts own studios would do that?

A lot of people need to read the thread, and stop listening to the resident troll.

 

[TBiddy]

Unfortunately, this is exactly why I will be going PS5 next gen. Sucks for PS5 owners too cause now cross platform games will have to run on xbox one, so they will be gimped.

Read the thread. It’s only first party, no matter what the avatar with the green helmet tries to tell people.

 

[JLB]

Looks two narratives are mixed in the message.
Cyberpunk was going to get released on Xbox One independent of the fact that Microsoft will push cross gen initial content on its first party offer for Series X. So no matter what MS has to say about cross-gen, the delay would happen anyways.

 

[V4skunk]

Since Xbox Series X is reportedly 30% more powerful than PS5, should we be worried about this same issue for next gen?

Some may claim that power doesn't matter, but I call B.S. why then is everyone upset about Xbox One's lack of power when it's only about the games? Does power not matter until it actually matters? It sure seems like it's only an issue when it isn't their platform of choice.

Power means everything, especially when the power costs less.
All to do with perceived value for money.

 

[Psykodad]

I understand the scaleability argument, but it seems to me people are running with it past the goal posts and well out of the stadium. Impossible for me to believe that there won't be adverse effects. I feel like scaleability is next gen's version of cloud power.

It is.

It's far easier to run with that narrative than admitting that cross-gen titles will hold back games.

Obviously not all games, but let's not pretend it's not true.
It's funny to see Xbox fans doing MS' PR for them, although I'm getting dizzy from all the spinning lately.

 

[DaMonsta]

It is.

It's far easier to run with that narrative than admitting that cross-gen titles will hold back games.

Obviously not all games, but let's not pretend it's not true.
It's funny to see Xbox fans doing MS' PR for them, although I'm getting dizzy from all the spinning lately.

Will love to come back and read some of these posts once the games and machines release.

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

Wait. Games have to work with not just the One X, but the original Xbox One as well?

 

[Hobbygaming]

Since Xbox Series X is reportedly 30% more powerful than PS5, should we be worried about this same issue for next gen?

Some may claim that power doesn't matter, but I call B.S. why then is everyone upset about Xbox One's lack of power when it's only about the games? Does power not matter until it actually matters? It sure seems like it's only an issue when it isn't their platform of choice.

I highly doubt it'll be a 30% difference in power, it'll most likely be 15% or less and with these higher resolutions, the differences will be negligible

 

[Journey]

I highly doubt it'll be a 30% difference in power, it'll most likely be 15% or less and with these higher resolutions, the differences will be negligible

Ok Albert Penello, we'll see I guess.

 

[Hobbygaming]

If anything this proves the OP narrative wrong.

This is a game being built to bring the strongest hardware to its knees, yet it will be able to be scaled down the the OG X1

“Next gen” or not, very few if any games will be of the scale, scope and detail of Cyberpunk, especially in the first couple years of the consoles being out.

Microsoft has the best access and tools with their own hardware. First party games will scale just fine and use each piece of hardware to its fullest.

I think it's the opposite because at the end of the day, Cyberpunk 2077 is still a current generation game so if they're already struggling to get to run properly, games designed from the ground up for next gen will have an even harder time

 

[Fbh]

Not a fan of the "decree", but I think people are blowing it out of proportions.
It's just a year (2 years from NOW, not from when the series X releases), just for MS exclusives, and launch year exclusives tend to suck anyway. Also no one promised the Base Xbox version will be great.

Not every game is as ambitious as Cyberpunk and lots of games can be scaled back. Look at the Witcher 3, a game many would consider one of the best releases of the gen and one that even back then had people saying current gen consoles where "struggling to run it"....... and yet it got ported to Switch. Games can be ported to surprisingly low end hardware if you are willing to lower the visuals, resolution and frame rate enough

Wait. Games have to work with not just the One X, but the original Xbox One as well?

Only for a year and only MS exclusives

 

[TBiddy]

Wait. Games have to work with not just the One X, but the original Xbox One as well?

The 2-3 first party games Microsoft will release around launch will also work on the original XB1, yes.

It's fun how the only people concerned about this are die-hard Sony-fanboys (not referring to you, by the way). They were never going to be affected by this, but yet it's apparantly a gigantic problem for those of us who prefer the other team. Thanks for your concern, but I think we'll manage without it.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Ok Albert Penello, we'll see I guess.

Lol yes we will see I fully expect them to be close in power and the real battle will be the 1st party exclusives

Sony has the advantage there

 

[ZywyPL]

un how the only people concerned about this are die-hard Sony-fanboys (not referring to you, by the way). They were never going to be affected by this, but yet it's apparantly a gigantic problem for those of us who prefer the other team. Thanks for your concern, but I think we'll manage without it.

What's actually really funny is that being able to play old games on a new hardware is totally acceptable, should I say desired, whereas the other way around it's considered a crime against humanity

 

[SegaShack]

I like not having to buy new machines, considering that I paid $500 for my Xbox One. I hope to keep using it as long as I can.

I also loved the Kinect OS integration as well as the snap feature and wished they didn't ditch them both.

 

[Journey]

Lol yes we will see I fully expect them to be close in power and the real battle will be the 1st party exclusives

Sony has the advantage there

Sounds to me like it's your wishful thinking since that would be an advantage to them. The more power the better, so if Sony ups the power and tries to chase XSX, then gamers win regardless.

If PS5 is 9.2TF and XSX is 12.2, then it will be 33% more powerful, eerily similar to Xbox One vs PS4, but at a bigger scale. 3TF difference almost reflects the power of an entire PS4 Pro

 

[Bandi]

Unfortunately, this is exactly why I will be going PS5 next gen. Sucks for PS5 owners too cause now cross platform games will have to run on xbox one, so they will be gimped.

huh what? again, cross platform games do NOT have to be ported to xbox one! Microsoft NEVER said that! this is a LIE.

 

[GymWolf]

people talk about pc ports being scaled since ever...

rdr2 is the same fucking game on pc, yeah you have nicer shadows, better lod, etc. etc. etc.

but physics is the same, ambiental interaction and destruction is the same, gore is the same, IA are the same, animation are the same, at the core is still a game with jaguar cpu in mind.
and that is rockstar with the biggest budget\man power\time possible between all devs...


good luck on not being hold back by a jaguar cpu when you are making a game from scratch with a ryzen 3gen\ssd in mind...

i'm pretty sure gta6 would be impossible on a ps4\xone.

an halo infinite with 100 elements on screen between cars, enemies, allies, spaceship, ambiental destruction etc. is gonna be piss easy to port on a 2013 shitty hardware...

horizon 2 with massive dinobot battles on the ground and on air (or water) and dynamic dinobot distruction piece for piece...another piss easy port, sure...

infamous 4 where you can destroy all buildings during superpowers fights, same story.



bells and whistles are easy to downgrade to a lesser hardware, not the core of the game if the core use the new hardware for something new or ambitious.

(sorry for the horrible prose)

 

[ZywyPL]

Sounds to me like it's your wishful thinking since that would be an advantage to them. The more power the better, so if Sony ups the power and tries to chase XSX, then gamers win regardless.

If PS5 is 9.2TF and XSX is 12.2, then it will be 33% more powerful, eerily similar to Xbox One vs PS4, but at a bigger scale. 3TF difference almost reflects the power of an entire PS4 Pro

But then again, how many people complain about Pro games being 1440p? Exactly. If there will really be a 30% GPU power difference Sony can settle for yet again heavy usage of CBR and call it a day, and most people won't even notice.

 

[Panajev2001a]

just for those who don’t know (because this has been talked about to death now)

- games scale, this is the way it’s always been
- it’s first party only
- it’s only for a short amount of time and will only apply to a couple of games really

This is coming as a result of a developer complaining about scaling the game (and not being able to charge twice or thrice or however many configurations you scale to for it... which would give them the budget to pay for more resources dedicated to it), but anyways:

1. “This decree is not a problem, scaling games is easy and cheap”

2. “Ok, maybe it is, but this decree only applies to first party software, so still not really a problem...”

3. “Ok, maybe still a problem, but it is only for a limited period of time”

 

[Panajev2001a]

Taking a top down approach for software development is suicide unless you have separate teams doing different versions.

Best practice dictates you always start with the lowest configuration and then scale up where possible while maintaining the same level of core functionality across all versions.

My guess is CDPR probably took the scale down approach because they've always aimed to be ambitious with their projects and when it started development they hadn't struck big on consoles yet. Then the console money came flooding in from the success of the Witcher 3 and they figured there was too much money on consoles to ignore so it was all hands on deck to find a way to make this game also work on consoles.

What they should have done is just said it's too much for the base PS4 and Xbox and we will release a console version once the next generation of consoles arrive.

thank you!

 

[Psykodad]

Will love to come back and read some of these posts once the games and machines release.

Fine by me. By then I'll be too busy playing next-gen games to care about what I said today.


Edit:

D DaMonsta

Just realized you possibly weren't referring to me. If so, ignore my comment. Lol

 

[PocoJoe]

It’s a first party only mandate for one-two years, it’s not the end of the world.

You have the exact same constraint with PCs. You have ultra settings and low settings, people act like this has never been a thing

It havent been a thing on consoles.

PC world is pc world. They do it(support slow ass configs) because they have to, not because they want to.

1-2 years is still long time if their already superior&more popular competitor doesnt have to limit their games because of old ass system.

It is a big deal, it will affect games and their design.

People should stop this nonsense of "just pull sliders to low from ultra and thats it!"

Xbox one s will limit a lot more than just resolution/graphics.

It will make games worse than they could be without Xbox one and its retarded DDR3+dram memory and slow HDD.

 

[Darlingcognito]

You know... they cant
Mandate
What
Third parties do?
Right?
It's really just concern trolling or ignorance at this point.

 

[DaMonsta]

I think it's the opposite because at the end of the day, Cyberpunk 2077 is still a current generation game so if they're already struggling to get to run properly, games designed from the ground up for next gen will have an even harder time

“Current gen” and “next gen” are just buzzwords they mean nothing to a developer.

Cyberpunk was built from the ground up for hardware much more powerful than what will be in the next round of consoles.

 

[DaMonsta]

Fine by me. By then I'll be too busy playing next-gen games to care about what I said today.


Edit:

D DaMonsta

Just realized you possibly weren't referring to me. If so, ignore my comment. Lol

Was referring to everyone taking such a hard stance on what will be next gen or not, or how this policy will or won’t effect games.

Lots of snarky comments back in forth, I’m interested in seeing how people come back and react once all this stuff is out.

 

[GHG]

Trade offs. They would be fine on the One but the game would be less impressive and attract less interest. I don't believe that this is really your preferred option. You seem to want to make a case about Xbox's next gen strategy being flawed instead of acknowledging that said strategy is in line with how game creators produce great games, e.g. Cyberpunk

If course its not my preference, I'm an enthusiast and would rather they build games around the highest level of spec possible. If it was up to me, the moment the boundary is crossed into next gen they should make games for next gen platforms only. If it was up to me they would build games with mid-high end PC's as the baseline, even if it meant a console port was impossible. I've had a PC more powerful than the Xbox One X this entire generation and it's barely broken sweat until very recently. However, I'm not stupid enough to think that that's how all development studios will work, especially 3rd parties, there will be a transitional period for monetary reasons.

So in the realm of reality all we can do is look at where the baseline is and start to think about what a reasonable baseline is. I'm of the opinion that the original Xbox One is far below where that baseline should be going into 2021 when the new consoles release. It's a huge performance delta that will have implications. Developers will either be looking at a CDPR situation where they are struggling to get their games running on the older hardware, or they will have gone the other way where a lot of overhead is left on the table with the higher end consoles due to developing around the lower end consoles. If the performance delta is reduced and the baseline is brought up (to Xbox One X levels for example) then there's not such a huge gap to have to wrestle with. A happy medium can be struck and it means even if you're taking the baseline into consideration when making design choices, the higher end platforms don't suffer as much.

If you're a developer you should know this, there comes a point where you simply have to advise your clients to upgrade their hardware because you will no longer support what they currently have with new features. It's not anti-consumer for doing so, it's common sense, it's how we progress. Real progress doesn't happen at the top end, real progress happens when we lift the baseline.

And this is where it baffles me. We are supposedly on an enthusiast board and we have people on here championing the baseline being so low. People championing the fact that they will spend $400-600 on new hardware only for games to not be built around it. Microsoft are a first party developer, if anyone can afford to throw caution to the wind and develop for their next gen console from the ground up it should be them. I will be playing their titles on PC, it would be wonderful to see the boundaries really being pushed to levels we've never seen before. A modern day "Crysis moment" if you like. But hey, "when everyone plays, we all win" right?

Sorry, I can't get on board with their strategy, and I really can't understand why anyone who is engaged enough to invest in the new console day one would either.

People should demand better.

 

[cireza]

This is a decision taken by first party developers from Microsoft, but I don't think third parties are constrained in any way. They can make an Xbox One X only game if they want. And Cyberpunk started development a long time ago, so they knew very well the specs of current PS4/One.

 

[MoreJRPG]

It would be really awesome if this actually pushed more developers to make Sony console exclusives.

It would be really awesome if this actually pushed more developers to make Sony console exclusives.

Guess you won’t be buying anything but the three exclusives they launch since Ubisoft, EA, Activision Capcom, Take Two and all the other big boys will be cross-genning for the first year or two as well like always.

 

[Afro Republican]

DOES THOU SIR PHILLIP SPENCER OF THE EAST WATTS ROYAL FAMILY BESTOW THY ROYAL DECREE ON THEM XBONE?

I THINK NOT BRETHREN, I THINK NOT.

 

[Hobbygaming]

“Current gen” and “next gen” are just buzzwords they mean nothing to a developer.

Cyberpunk was built from the ground up for hardware much more powerful than what will be in the next round of consoles.

I think it would mean something if the developer wanted the next level of physics but he had to get his game to run on Jaguar cores

 

[Hobbygaming]

Sounds to me like it's your wishful thinking since that would be an advantage to them. The more power the better, so if Sony ups the power and tries to chase XSX, then gamers win regardless.

If PS5 is 9.2TF and XSX is 12.2, then it will be 33% more powerful, eerily similar to Xbox One vs PS4, but at a bigger scale. 3TF difference almost reflects the power of an entire PS4 Pro

I don't believe 30% will be the case and my comment about 1st party was talking about WWS being the best there is

 

[Matt_Fox]

If course its not my preference, I'm an enthusiast and would rather they build games around the highest level of spec possible. If it was up to me, the moment the boundary is crossed into next gen they should make games for next gen platforms only. If it was up to me they would build games with mid-high end PC's as the baseline, even if it meant a console port was impossible. I've had a PC more powerful than the Xbox One X this entire generation and it's barely broken sweat until very recently. However, I'm not stupid enough to think that that's how all development studios will work, especially 3rd parties, there will be a transitional period for monetary reasons.

So in the realm of reality all we can do is look at where the baseline is and start to think about what a reasonable baseline is. I'm of the opinion that the original Xbox One is far below where that baseline should be going into 2021 when the new consoles release. It's a huge performance delta that will have implications. Developers will either be looking at a CDPR situation where they are struggling to get their games running on the older hardware, or they will have gone the other way where a lot of overhead is left on the table with the higher end consoles due to developing around the lower end consoles. If the performance delta is reduced and the baseline is brought up (to Xbox One X levels for example) then there's not such a huge gap to have to wrestle with. A happy medium can be struck and it means even if you're taking the baseline into consideration when making design choices, the higher end platforms don't suffer as much.

If you're a developer you should know this, there comes a point where you simply have to advise your clients to upgrade their hardware because you will no longer support what they currently have with new features. It's not anti-consumer for doing so, it's common sense, it's how we progress. Real progress doesn't happen at the top end, real progress happens when we lift the baseline.

And this is where it baffles me. We are supposedly on an enthusiast board and we have people on here championing the baseline being so low. People championing the fact that they will spend $400-600 on new hardware only for games to not be built around it. Microsoft are a first party developer, if anyone can afford to throw caution to the wind and develop for their next gen console from the ground up it should be them. I will be playing their titles on PC, it would be wonderful to see the boundaries really being pushed to levels we've never seen before. A modern day "Crysis moment" if you like. But hey, "when everyone plays, we all win" right?

Sorry, I can't get on board with their strategy, and I really can't understand why anyone who is engaged enough to invest in the new console day one would either.

People should demand better.

I'm the OP, and have not yet commented because I seem to have ruffled feathers and have no interest in a slanging match with anyone.

I never have and never will nail my colours to any particular mast, I currently have a Switch, an X1X, a Pro and a gaming PC. I enjoy them all hugely.

GHG, you have summed up the reason why I posted this thread. Because I want better. Because I want the baseline to be increased and the bar to be raised. I want to see Usain Bolt sprinting in his gold running shoes, not forced to wear a pair of old wellies. Thanks for making my point far more eloquently than I managed in the original post!