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Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Apparently he actually said both. Like in the article that of the first post, it's just the creator of this topic that chose to deliver it a bit differently.
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Xbox Series X constrained by 'must also work on Xbox One' decree
- Thread starter Matt_Fox
- Start date
Lone Wolf
Member
If this was true, The Witcher 3 wouldn’t be on Switch.
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ethomaz
Banned
The Witcher 3 was ported to Switch lol
Port is independent of scalabiity... you can port anything to anything since you have money and time.
Now let's ask CDPR to make Cyperbunk 2077 scaleable from Switch to PC high-end
PC having a minimum requirement that increase year after year shows a lot what is really scalability... if you keep being scalable to old hardware you stop to progress and use new hardware capabilities.
MS used to make ports of cross-gen 360 and Xbox One games with two different teams in 2013... Titanfall, Forza Horizon 2, Killer Instinct, etc... they never choose scalability for obvious reasons.
Let's see how they will do cross-gen this time.
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Monkeygourmet
Banned
It’s a crazy turn of events when even MS fans are justifying this by saying things like;
“Who cares, it’s just Halo / Forza & Gears anyway...”
Such lofty ambitions
Ironically it’s one of the main criticisms of the Xbox brand in the One years and now their just seems to be acceptance of this future...
Talk about Stockholm Syndrome.
“Who cares, it’s just Halo / Forza & Gears anyway...”
Such lofty ambitions
Ironically it’s one of the main criticisms of the Xbox brand in the One years and now their just seems to be acceptance of this future...
Talk about Stockholm Syndrome.
joe_zazen
Member
no,but they can mandate things if cdpr wants to release on their platform. Sony requires trophies, for example.
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JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Except MS is the only one mandating that all games be playable on both. Sony, has made no such mandate, at least that we know of.
LordOfChaos
Member
This is why I don't like these hard rules about anything, even when it comes to people talking about mandating a higher framerate or resolution. Let the developer choose what's best for them and the players.
ethomaz
Banned
That is actually another subject.
MS rule is only for first-party games being developed now.
Next batch of first-party games probably won't have that rule anymore.
It is bad? Yes, but it affect if very niche and not related to anything with Cyperpunk 2077.
Edit - Maybe it is the thread subject... I thought I was in the Cyberpunk 2077 thread lol
The example is indeed a good example of what can happen with MS first-party development with that rule.
But the Cyberpunk 2077 case is not related with the MS rule.
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Codes 208
Member
but theres no real context as the terms, if any. To me it just sounds like for the first couple years we’ll have games on both the one and SX from first party studios. Its just a reversal of how every new gen we pretty much see the same thing from third party (like how we kept getting last gen ports of cod all the way up to blops 3)
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
PC games have worked like this for ages, just go into the settings and toggle those options. You're running Normal graphics settings versus Ultra Max. I'd imagine a lot of stuff that gets rendered in today's market is resource heavy stuff, but compressing it down shouldn't be too big of an issue right? How about those remastered games we see all the time. Take an older port and make it look better.
I think its all about compression and the devs mainly see it taking forever to be produced. I bet there's engineers out there who know how to fit just about anything. Compatibility mode seems to be a forgotten pastime. Companies are marketing and making money off of compatibility, especially Apple. Any avid Windows user should know there's room to run X, Y, and Z on hardware. I'm not an expert on the subject and I dont know anything about game design. I've just had to run whatever games I had on a different setting for many years.
I think its all about compression and the devs mainly see it taking forever to be produced. I bet there's engineers out there who know how to fit just about anything. Compatibility mode seems to be a forgotten pastime. Companies are marketing and making money off of compatibility, especially Apple. Any avid Windows user should know there's room to run X, Y, and Z on hardware. I'm not an expert on the subject and I dont know anything about game design. I've just had to run whatever games I had on a different setting for many years.
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Insane Metal
Member
Just looking at the gameplay it was pretty obvious. This game isn't meant for current gen. They'll have to make a Ultra Low version for it to able to run on X1 and PS4, mainly on X1 base.
TBiddy
Member
They are not mandating that. Educate yourself, or at least read the thread.
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ruvikx
Banned
It’s a crazy turn of events when even MS fans are justifying this by saying things like;
“Who cares, it’s just Halo / Forza & Gears anyway...”
Such lofty ambitions
Ironically it’s one of the main criticisms of the Xbox brand in the One years and now their just seems to be acceptance of this future...
Talk about Stockholm Syndrome.
You talk like exclusives in the first 2 years of a console cycle are the main attraction. How about no? It's the Call of Duty's, Fifas, Assassin's Creeds etc. etc. which push console sales. I know some people like to pretend it's the exclusives, but it's not. Do you know why the ps4 sold better than the One? It was cheaper & more powerful. That's it. So when people saw that GTA 5 ran better (with better grass!) on the ps4? Kaboom, they bought one.
Monkeygourmet
Banned
Why would I care what the masses want?
They want shit like MT’s / FIFA & Fortnight.
That direction of gaming is McDonalds. Why would any gamer be happy about that direction?
Exclusives are what should drive tech , offer unique experiences and move games forward.
what? no. MS never said that. they only said that THEIR MS FIRST PARTY games are going to be crossgen for the FIRST YEAR of the release of the console.
they never said that that third party needs to do that.
Why exactly are you lying? Just to make "your" console look better? fucking liar.
again, its ONLY for the FIRST YEAR of the console and ONLY MS first party titles, nothing more.
why do people dont understand this? why do they have to spread FUD?
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Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Which console plays the most games At
The best quality/frame rate compared to entry price.
That’s it. That’s all there is to it. Nothing more.
Exclusives matter for nothing in the huge scheme of things. For example I do all my multiplats on one x, and my PS5 is for exclusives, as in my switch. Because multiplats play best on one x. But here’s my Xbox game list:
So of about 180 games, only About 13 are exclusive. Yet the Xbox one X is my console of choice.
so exclusives matter, but no, not as much as you may think, not to the average user
The best quality/frame rate compared to entry price.
That’s it. That’s all there is to it. Nothing more.
Exclusives matter for nothing in the huge scheme of things. For example I do all my multiplats on one x, and my PS5 is for exclusives, as in my switch. Because multiplats play best on one x. But here’s my Xbox game list:
So of about 180 games, only About 13 are exclusive. Yet the Xbox one X is my console of choice.
so exclusives matter, but no, not as much as you may think, not to the average user
Gavon West
Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
Youre trying waaaay too hard here. Jesus Christ... What's sad is the level of insecurity on display in this thread among the elite armchair developers to make a mountain out of a mole hill against plastic boxes with the name Xbox above the disc slot. GaF can be the worst stain on the entire gaming community at times... Damn.
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Journey
Banned
Is there a bright side for the PC? Because I'm struggling to see the problem with the PC version of Cyberpubnk, but help me out.
GHG
Member
You're trying to educate the wrong guy here...
I'm sure they know about best practices, never said they didn't. That doesn't mean however that they will always follow them. There are examples of bigger and more established companies than them making bigger fuck ups than this as far as software development is concerned.
The Switch port of the Witcher 3 was outsourced to an entirely different team, it was likely not something they thought was possible when they started developing the game (the system didn't even exist). Yes it shows their engine is scalable but it was never part of the original plan and I'm sure some of them might have had doubts it was even possible when they first looked at it as a project.
When you start on a project one of the key outlines is what is the lowest end spec we are expecting to run this on. Once that is established and limitations are enforced accordingly you work from there. If you start at the opposite end of the spectrum you are asking for bottlenecks to occur, and that's what the Xbox One is in this case, a bottleneck. This is especially true when you are dealing with known quantity fixed hardware configurations. Agile is an approach they will also use but it will be more in the sense of making adjustments as the game is developed and then reviewing them to ensure the project is on the right path and meets their objectives along the way (e.g. Is xxxxx gane mechanic enjoyable and does it fit in with the rest of the game? What adjustments can we make to it or other things to improve it?). Yeh you can also apply it in light of the fact that you might implement something that might bog down a certain hardware config and you need to scrap/adapt it (or the opposite might be true where something requires less workload than expected) but that would usually be able to be established right at the start of the project.
For what it's worth web applications is my area of expertise and we always talk about bottom up (mobile first) or top down (desktop first). Other than some very specific use cases, the former is always better than the latter, both from a development efficiency standpoint and to ensure UX consistency across all versions.
xrnzaaas
Member
Of course they're going to be constrained, if a game is heavily reliant on physics then changing the "graphics settings" to low like on PC won't necessarily solve the problem. I'm not saying it's going to be the case with all new games, but it will definitely shape the way of developing new Xbox exclusives by not making them too much CPU or RAM demanding.
ruvikx
Banned
And that would be the dev's fault. There's plenty of great looking games on the base 2013 consoles i.e. Uncharted 4, Gears 4, Assassin's Creed Origins (Arkham Knight runs really well on the One X without a 4K patch as well) ergo if a dev targets that hardware, they'll get it running fine. It's when their ambition starts to run wild when things might get a little tasty, but if that's the case (i.e. Cyberpunk needs more horsepower), just cancel on current gen & make it exclusive next gen. Easy peasy lemon squeezy, but I suspect The 100 million + install base does matter.
Because they're console warriors & they believe if they post some stuff online, people might believe all games on Xbox Series X will be "held back" by 2013 tech whilst the ps5 gets all the sweet stuff.
God of War 2018 ran like dogshit on the base ps4. The framerate was all over the place. I've been much more impressed with many third party titles than the exclusives this gen. And back on topic, we're just talking about a year or so of cross gen, i.e. not the Series X entire lifespan.
V4skunk
Banned
This is the image quality i'd expect from Xbone in Cyberpunk2077.
PS4 is around 33% more powerful than Xbone. Xbone is around 40% weaker.
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Journey
Banned
Do you work for Xbox Game Studios? if so, can you let us know which approach they're going with? Are they going to build Halo Infinite for PC at its finest look, then have Xbox Series X be a close 2nd, followed by Xbox One X and so on with a possible rework of assets to accommodate Xbox One? or are they building an engine that will scale down to Xbox One instead making Infinite on PC look like a polished Xbox One title in higher resolution?
Regular non-armchair developers are curious, please let us know.
ThaMonkeyClaw
Member
That's kind of comparing apples to oranges, trophies/acheivements don't cripple a developer's vision on a game. The problem is going to arise on multiplayer games online, if the next gen version is pumping out ray trace lighting and the older gen isn't that lighting difference on games like Call Of Duty, etc. are going to give one of the consoles an unfair advantage in certain area due to the way ray tracing lights a specific area.
Monkeygourmet
Banned
God of War 2018 ran like dogshit on the base ps4. The framerate was all over the place. I've been much more impressed with many third party titles than the exclusives this gen. And back on topic, we're just talking about a year or so of cross gen, i.e. not the Series X entire lifespan.
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Dog shit?
Nah.
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Dog shit?
Nah.
GHG
Member
This already happens with shadow details.
However if the game is designed around shadows then it would be an issue.
The only way this becomes a huge deal is if they design a lot of maps/surfaces around ray tracing so that reflections start to play a huge part in spotting enemies.
Journey
Banned
Since Xbox Series X is reportedly 30% more powerful than PS5, should we be worried about this same issue for next gen?
Some may claim that power doesn't matter, but I call B.S. why then is everyone upset about Xbox One's lack of power when it's only about the games? Does power not matter until it actually matters? It sure seems like it's only an issue when it isn't their platform of choice.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Have you not been paying attention?
MilkyJoe
Member
Journey
Banned
Dory16
Banned
Cool, glad none of us needs to put anything in layman terms then and neither do you. I don't think the fact that another studio ported the game to the switch takes anything away from the scalability of the CD Projekt english or the top down approach that they MUST have taken (as the Switch did not exist on the witcher 3's release date). It could very well just be a sign that CD had no time to allocate to such a port and wanted to assign their staff to more strategic projects.
In other words, top down is a proven method in their case and if something is not broken... Targeting the lowest hardware has a lot more serious drawbacks than top down, the worst one being that you are limited to the scope of features that the weaker hardware allows. It's simply not what serious game studios do anyway, as the PC is their development platform and not a PC that emulates the Xbox One (or the switch for that matter), it's ported down later, so what what exactly is the real world evidence that bottom up is the "best practice" in the gaming industry? I'm just not convinced
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Honest question but what, exactly, do you think gaming has been doing for, well, ever?
There are certain things you can’t just downscale and be ok with. If your game is built around SSD tech for loading assets on the fly, a bog standard HDD isn’t going to cut it. In these cases you simply need to rethink how it will work, something that’s been done since day dot.
Most things can be adjusted with no real loss of anything other than quality. Texture mips can be downscaled, shaders can be run at lower samples, shadows dialled back or disabled etc You can run in lower resolution. Those are bog standard things. When it comes to processor intensive tasks, these can also be adjusted just as easily. AI can be disabled or toned down with reduced counts, animation blending and all forth can be cut back over certain distance, and extra geo can be added to block vis in certain areas without much work. Physics intensive objects usually have no bearing on what’s going on and can be culled completely even.
Is it extra work? Yeah, it is. But it also has no bearing on your highest quality.
I can’t give specific examples because that means talking about specific cases, so for example the optimisations you would make to a game like GTA is totally different to Forza, or Gears.
But Ive been optimising media to work in various hardware for 20 odd years near enough. it’s not difficult, it’s actually easy. It just requires extra work, and sometimes forward thinking. But you absolutely can make a next gen, utterly drop dead looking and playing game work on a potato. The question isn’t can you, it’s how much are you prepared to sacrifice of the vision to make it work.
I think some games that are SX but also 1X , I think they will surprise some people. You can do a LOT.
but even then, this is year one. And I’m sorry but at no point in time, ever, in the history of consoles, has a game ever come out that maxed the potential of the console that quick. Games willbe made the exact same way they always have, at least for the first year or so. This is for BOTH consoles.
So when people are being wowed at how good the PS5 exclusives look, remember to ask yourself what is being done that couldn’t be done on older hardware at reduced fidelity? I’ve spent many, many years writing materials and materials of multiple stages and quality configurations, as well as multiple lods and mips. I’ve done a lot over the years, and trust me, it can be done.
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Vawn
Banned
Do you realize that Switch versions of AAA PS4/Xbone games are made completely separate than the original versions? That's why they usually don't even release at the same time as the true console versions. They're usually done by completely different teams or studios.
So, if Xbox wants to hire third-party developers to make inferior versions for base Xbox One, yeah, the XSeX won't be limited. But, they are very unlikely to do this as it will increased development costs and development time significantly.
Instead, they must make a game to run on VCR Xbone and then just increase what they can easily for the XSeX. That's not very exciting if this is really meant to be a new generation.
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ruvikx
Banned
Some people aren't as sensitive to framerate fluctuations as others. Uncharted 4 on the base ps4 ran far, far better than God of War 2018. Once that ps4 pro model was released, big games (whether exclusive or third party) started to run worse on the base hardware. I also never saw a huge gap in terms of graphics & performance between third party & exclusives this gen. Metal Gear Solid 5 for example (an open world third party title) ran nicely on the base ps4 & looked really good. It's one of the reasons 'why' I get sick & tired of the excuses made for games which perform like shit, because some devs manage just fine with the hardware they're working on.
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Lone Wolf
Member
so do they work from top down or bottom up?The Witcher 3 was ported to Switch lol
Port is independent of scalabiity... you can port anything to anything since you have money and time.
Now let's ask CDPR to make Cyperbunk 2077 scaleable from Switch to PC high-end
PC having a minimum requirement that increase year after year shows a lot what is really scalability... if you keep being scalable to old hardware you stop to progress and use new hardware capabilities.
MS used to make ports of cross-gen 360 and Xbox One games with two different teams in 2013... Titanfall, Forza Horizon 2, Killer Instinct, etc... they never choose scalability for obvious reasons.
Let's see how they will do cross-gen this time.
ZywyPL
Banned
Really curios how much downgraded or held back the 2021 games will be. Who knows, maybe they will find some reasonable middle ground. Mandate or not, I really don't expect anything different from Sony as well, especially looking at PS4 first 2-3 years.
And who cares what YOU want? Who the fuck are you anyway? Go get a PC or PS5 if MS strategy bothers you so much. Because the publishers don't give a crap about some whiny little kids on the internet, they are here to make some serious money, not to suck your dick and make you feel good. They can as well disappear from the home console market and switch to making smartphone games if they want to, and you are nobody to bitch about it. Start your own company, make your own hardware, make games that please your taste, and stop telling other people/companies what to do and how to make money, simple.
And who cares what YOU want? Who the fuck are you anyway? Go get a PC or PS5 if MS strategy bothers you so much. Because the publishers don't give a crap about some whiny little kids on the internet, they are here to make some serious money, not to suck your dick and make you feel good. They can as well disappear from the home console market and switch to making smartphone games if they want to, and you are nobody to bitch about it. Start your own company, make your own hardware, make games that please your taste, and stop telling other people/companies what to do and how to make money, simple.
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Dabaus
Banned
Earlier this month Xbox Game Studios head Matt Booty confirmed the decree that all their new next gen content must also work on the original 2013 Xbox One.
The first real warning sign that this may gimp content and prove difficult or even untenable for devs came today.
Speaking in a podcast about CD Projekt Red's decision to delay Cyberpunk 2077, insider Borys Niespielak "strongly confirmed that the biggest problem is Xbox One (2013 model) and the game there is extremely unsatisfactory."
If a current gen game (albeit a particularly ambitious one) like Cyberpunk 2077 is struggling to work in a satisfactory way on the OG Xbox One console then how will Microsoft's all-singing all-dancing next generation line-up work on their aged console? If the decree stands then will developers be forced to curb and bridle their ambitions for the Xbox Series X from the off?
Is any gamer happy about this decree? Is their a bright side for buyers of the Xbox Series X, because personally I am struggling to see it?
Cyberpunk 2077 delayed because of current gen consoles, new source claims
According to a Polish insider Borys Niespielak, the main reason for Cyberpunk 2077 delay lies in current-gen consoles, which are reportedly not powerful enough to run the game properly.www.altchar.com
Sony Ponies like you fail to understand how scaling works. Scaling is as easy as pressing a button, if it doesnt run well you just press a button to make it 1080p, and if that doesnt work you press another button to make it 720p. Things Like GPU Power, amount of RAM, etc arent as importnat anymore because xcloud will be doing alot of the heavy lifting. Devs, especially cyber punk devs, are just lazy nowdays. Microsoft has some of the best, most hard working devs in the world so thats while theyll easily be able to scale and downport their games cross generations. Im not a developer or anything but im surprised how many of you dont understand this.
its only for the first year. Not 2 years.
Monkeygourmet
Banned
You must be thick as mince to not understand that this direction isn’t beneficial to people who are gamers in the long run.
Of course they can make money with shitty business practices - it doesn’t mean that’s a good thing.
Why would you actually defend getting f’d in the a? What a moron.
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seriously. Fuck OP.This is extremely misleading and typical for SONYgaf.a mod should change it NOW
Monkeygourmet
Banned
But, with the power of the Series X, it should be ideal time to show it off.
Launch is the ideal time to show the jump.
They could have showed a 4K 60fps exclusive with raytracing, something you couldn’t purchase or play on the One or X.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
First 'year or two' is up to a quarter of a console's lifespan, hardly short. It will hold back not only Xbox but the industry as a whole.
And what ambitious AAA title has ever scaled well from 1.3Tfops to 12.2Tflops? I think you dont understand the meaning of 'scaling' very well. It's not entirely about just flicking switches for res and fps.
Vawn
Banned
Wow... Alright, then.
If anything this proves the OP narrative wrong.
This is a game being built to bring the strongest hardware to its knees, yet it will be able to be scaled down the the OG X1
“Next gen” or not, very few if any games will be of the scale, scope and detail of Cyberpunk, especially in the first couple years of the consoles being out.
Microsoft has the best access and tools with their own hardware. First party games will scale just fine and use each piece of hardware to its fullest.
This is a game being built to bring the strongest hardware to its knees, yet it will be able to be scaled down the the OG X1
“Next gen” or not, very few if any games will be of the scale, scope and detail of Cyberpunk, especially in the first couple years of the consoles being out.
Microsoft has the best access and tools with their own hardware. First party games will scale just fine and use each piece of hardware to its fullest.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
People who speak in flops show how little they know. People who say a year is a quarter of a consoles life span show even less.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
GHG
Member
Ok so let me ask you this, is the example that is the subject of this thread (if true) not evidence enough that a top down approach can cause significant problems during the development cycle?
If they did it the other way round they wouldn't be having these issues, that's almost certain.
Designing your game around hardware that is orders of magnitude stronger than another piece of hardware that you've also committed to releasing on is just asking for trouble in my opinion.
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