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[#Phonepunk#]

Maimonides considered that all evil was a result of human actions

Maimonides deals with the problem of evil (for which people are considered to be responsible because of free will), trials and tests (especially those of Job and the story of the Binding of Isaac) as well as other aspects traditionally attached to God in theology, such as providence and omniscience: "Maimonides endeavors to show that evil has no positive existence, but is a privation of a certain capacity and does not proceed from God; when, therefore, evils are mentioned in Scripture as sent by God, the Scriptural expressions must be explained allegorically. Indeed, says Maimonides, all existing evils, with the exception of some which have their origin in the laws of production and destruction and which are rather an expression of God's mercy, since by them the species are perpetuated, are created by men themselves."

The Guide for the Perplexed - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Afro Republican]

God is all powerful. He created humans. He has the ability to create humans that don't do bad things, or to create a world where bad things do not occur, or compel humans to not do bad things, just like he hardened Pharaoh's heart (but in a good way).

He is the cause of all things and bad things happen, so He must have caused them. That would give Him some responsibility in the matter.

Doesn't make sense, there is no Evil unless via free will you move away from him. By default you can't blame him for anything unless you're saying Humans are mindless drones with no free will. You have a choice and you make it. By Default you aren't evil you choose to go in a direction that makes you so.


Almost every blame god argument is poorly thought out or illogical because you have to basically ignore human history and pretend that every humans definition of good and evil are the same across the board in every time period.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

No that's not how it works, and you're also arguing you have no free will at the same time. You're only capable of evil if you move away from him. You are also trying to equate your current understanding of the term broadly based on the society you're in, which some time long past your definition of good wouldn't be so. You're basically trying to oversimplify pretty much everything while applying your limited understanding to history as a whole which doesn't make sense.

There can't be free will with the existence of an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient god. Its the whole can god create a stone it cannot lift paradox.

 

[GobbledeeGoo]

Remember that people separated God's 'bad qualities' into Satan. Its just the different side of the same coin. God can only do good and all bad things were done by Satan.

But what I'm saying what if something evil (Satan) created everything and God was the one that spun off from him and is the weaker of the two. It's evil that rules above all but God still exists as a lesser form.

 

[BigBooper]

then this "God" you speak of has less powers than a toddler, who can both lie and make mistakes.

That's dumb. Would Connor MacGregor not be able to beat your ass if you cut out his tongue?

 

[BigBooper]

But what I'm saying what if something evil (Satan) created everything and God was the one that spun off from him and is the weaker of the two. It's evil that rules above all but God still exists as a lesser form.

Then swap their names, but the story's the same? So what difference would it make?

 

[Afro Republican]

There can't be free will with the existence of an omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient god. Its the whole can god create a stone it cannot lift paradox.

Well first off who told you god was ALL three of those things?

Secondly, yes you can have Free will, you have the god who gave you free will, and if you decide to be tricked by the ol' serpent blaming god doesn't make sense. Since you made the decision to travel a course that can increase your chances of evil deed intentionally or not. It's an illogical argument.

It's as insane as people here saying god can't lie (he can) and that lying itself is a "power"(lol wut?)

 

[Mista]

If god creates something capible of evil and does not prevent evil from occuring, he directly caused the evil to occur by the very nature of his omniscience and omnipotence.

This isn't a fantasy movie. Bad deeds\evil exists in the world so people learn. How can one learn when theres no mistakes and no examples?

 

[O-N-E]

If you don't believe in a supernatural creator, you don't have any good foundation for morality to begin with. Everything is destiny. Freewill is non-existent in a world without the divine. You're just an object on a set path. No room for your argument really.

 

[GobbledeeGoo]

Then swap their names, but the story's the same? So what difference would it make?

Because good is a rebellion to evil which is what rules all. It changes the perspective on everything entirely.

 

[Mista]

I don't really care if one is atheist or not. Its up to them not me

But I never saw an atheist speak sense when it comes to this matter

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

God is a villain insofar that he bothered to create all of us, but calling him a villain for that is like the guy who sues his parents because he didn't ask to be born.

There is a story that pops up in various cultures at various times -- going all the way back to the story of Enki in the Sumerian texts and echoed in the rebellion of Lucifer in Abrahamic religions -- that the Devil is actually the real God (of humanity) and that the creator-God did not wish for humans to be made at all.

Freud and Jung had a lot of fascinating things to say about this, how Lucifer vs God represented the ego vs the superego.

 

[Rentahamster]

Doesn't make sense, there is no Evil unless via free will you move away from him. By default you can't blame him for anything unless you're saying Humans are mindless drones with no free will. You have a choice and you make it. By Default you aren't evil you choose to go in a direction that makes you so.


Almost every blame god argument is poorly thought out or illogical because you have to basically ignore human history and pretend that every humans definition of good and evil are the same across the board in every time period.

Is God omnipotent/all powerful or not?

 

[V4skunk]

The Mahabharata also talks about gods in the sky dropping nukes.... if you believe that sort of thing....

#imnotsayingitwasaliens

Ask your self why a 6000+ year old book talks about advanced weapons, spacecraft, city space stations etc...
It isn't hard to work it out!

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Well first off who told you god was ALL three of those things?

The bible makes those claims.

Secondly, yes you can have Free will, you have the god who gave you free will, and if you decide to be tricked by the ol' serpent blaming god doesn't make sense. Since you made the decision to travel a course that can increase your chances of evil deed intentionally or not. It's an illogical argument.

You can't have free will if god is those three things. But we do have free will, therefore god does not exist.

t's as insane as people here saying god can't lie (he can) and that lying itself is a "power"(lol wut?)

God can't lie, if the bible is to be believed. It isn't a "power".

This isn't a fantasy movie. Bad deeds\evil exists in the world so people learn. How can one learn when theres no mistakes and no examples?

No shit. But as I said, bad things/evil cannot exist though if God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient.

 

[O-N-E]

But we do have free will, therefore god does not exist.

There's a lot wrong with your reply, but this snippet in particular, what are you talking about? How do you have free will?

 

[#Phonepunk#]

MEN frequently think that the evils in the world are more numerous than the good things; many sayings and songs of the nations dwell on this idea. They say that a good thing is found only exceptionally, whilst evil things are numerous and lasting. Not only common people make this mistake, but even many who believe that they are wise. Al-Razi wrote a well-known book On Metaphysics [or Theology]. Among other mad and foolish things, it contains also the idea, discovered by him, that there exists more evil than good. For if the happiness of man and his pleasure in the times of prosperity be compared with the mishaps that befall him,--such as grief, acute pain, defects, paralysis of the limbs, fears, anxieties, and troubles,--it would seem as if the existence of man is a punishment and a great evil for him. This author commenced to verify his opinion by counting all the evils one by one; by this means he opposed those who hold the correct view of the benefits bestowed by God and His evident kindness, viz., that God is perfect goodness, and that all that comes from Him is absolutely good. The origin of the error is to be found in the circumstance that this ignorant man, and his party among the common people, judge the whole universe by examining one single person. For an ignorant man believes that the whole universe only exists for him; as if nothing else required any consideration. If, therefore, anything happens to him contrary to his expectation, he at once concludes that the whole universe is evil. If, however, he would take into consideration the whole universe, form an idea of it, and comprehend what a small portion he is of the Universe, he will find the truth.

Guide for the Perplexed: Part III: Chapter XII

Guide for the Perplexed, by Moses Maimonides, Friedländer translation [1904], at sacred-texts.com

www.sacred-texts.com

 

[Rentahamster]

There's a lot wrong with your reply, but this snippet in particular, what are you talking about? How do you have free will?

That's not what I said.

 

[O-N-E]

That's not what I said.

Apologies, don't know how that happened. I corrected the post.

 

[Afro Republican]

The bible makes those claims.

Not the way you're presenting them.

You can't have free will if god is those three things. But we do have free will, therefore god does not exist.

This isn't an argument, you aren't even supporting it.

God can't lie, if the bible is to be believed. It isn't a "power".

Except that he deceived the ones building the toward by humoring them, as they shot arrows into the sky he brought blood back down to trick them into thinking they hit him before punishing them later, also other instances. You can ly to evil to trick evil. Also it's not a "power" I didn't say it was but other users on here did.

No shit. But as I said, bad things/evil cannot exist though if God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient.

This is not an argument, you keep repeating the same thing without any basis that make sense to support it. None of those three terms are contradicted by evil being on the earth and humans choosing to go toward it by their free will or by another manipulation. This is why even atheists don't use your argument because it's complete illogical, at least the ones that go into depth.

 

[BigBooper]

Is God omnipotent/all powerful or not?

No one knows that. I heard an argument last week that he put limitations upon himself when dealing with man because otherwise man's free will would be meaningless.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

There's a lot wrong with your reply, but this snippet in particular, what are you talking about? How do you have free will?

I think you are misattributing that quote. But it does look like Rentahamster and I agree here.


Free will cannot be a thing if god exists according to the rules set for god in the Christian bible.

 

[Afro Republican]

Is God omnipotent/all powerful or not?

What does that have to do with evil being on the earth? There's no contradiction.

 

[O-N-E]

Free will cannot be a thing if god exists according to the rules set for god in the Christian bible.

Now you're saying something else. Explain how this statement is correct and why you believe that you do have free will without a divine creator?

 

[#Phonepunk#]

bad things/evil cannot exist though if God is omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient.

where are you getting this? i understand it is your opinion but do you have any scriptural references where it says "God cannot allow evil because he is perfect?" it seems to be a limitation you a bringing in from somewhere.

God grants his children, Adam and Eve, the gift of Free Will, right in the Book of Genesis. it is part of what makes us human, our curiosity, our want for knowledge, even if it will lead to bad things. God is allowing us to do evil right there from the start.*

Spoiler: esoteric reading of The Fall

the main occult traditions find inspiration from here, the Kabbala, the Tree of Life, it is directly related to the Tree that produces the fruit of knowledge of Good and Evil. occult legends say that after Adam ate of the fruit and was cast out, God sent the angel Raziel to deliver his prize, that knowledge of Creation, how to create from nothing, the powers of a god, magic, etc.

why do you think he cannot or must not do evil?

FWIW im not making light, im asking genuine questions. the question of evil is huge in philosophy and theology, all this has been discussed ad nausea for more than a thousand years at this point.

 

[Afro Republican]

the rules set for god in the Christian bible.

What does this even mean? Are you going to explain your argument at some point to where it makes logical sense?

 

[Rentahamster]

What does that have to do with evil being on the earth? There's no contradiction.

Just answer the question please. Is God all powerful or isn't He? Is He necessarily a being or entity that must be all powerful by definition?

 

[Cybrwzrd]

This is why even atheists don't use your argument because it's complete illogical, at least the ones that go into depth.

What are you talking about?

Problem of evil - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Rentahamster]

No one knows that. I heard an argument last week that he put limitations upon himself when dealing with man because otherwise man's free will would be meaningless.

I don't know it either. Some people say they know, and I hope they can explain it to me.

 

[Afro Republican]

Just answer the question please. Is God all powerful or isn't He? Is He necessarily a being or entity that must be all powerful by definition?

There's no need to answer because your question is dishonest based on your previous post. This is nothing more than a poison well attempt to flip the subject, why can't you just elaborate your beliefs so they can be addressed?

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Now you're saying something else. Explain how this statement is correct and why you believe that you do have free will without a divine creator?

I am not saying something else. I said the exact same thing stated previously. You must have misread it.

 

[Afro Republican]

What are you talking about?

Problem of evil - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well now you're just hurting your stance completely by bringing up Wikipedia and dismissing my post.

 

[Rentahamster]

There's no need to answer because your question is dishonest based on your previous post. This is nothing more than a poison well attempt to flip the subject, why can't you just elaborate your beliefs so they can be addressed?

There is nothing to fear by answering an honest question. I want to know what you think.

 

[O-N-E]

There's no need to answer because your question is dishonest based on your previous post. This is nothing more than a poison well attempt to flip the subject, why can't you just elaborate your beliefs so they can be addressed?

Same goes for Cybrwzrd . He seems to be under the illusion that his atheism grants him free will even though I've clearly outlined how that's impossible and he won't address the issue.

 

[BigBooper]

I don't know it either. Some people say they know, and I hope they can explain it to me.

You should check out the Unbelievable podcast/radio/Youtube show. They discuss these kinds of things and last week in particular they discussed the problem of evil. They always have a pro and con side to what they are arguing; they refer to as skeptics vs believers.

 

[Rentahamster]

Same goes for Cybrwzrd . He seems to be under the illusion that his atheism grants him free will even though I've clearly outlined how that's impossible and he won't address the issue.

Well, do you believe that God is all powerful and can do anything?

 

[#Phonepunk#]

Just answer the question please. Is God all powerful or isn't He?

if he is all powerful, then he can do evil or good if he chooses. strenghth of power has nothing to do with morality. there are powerful evil people as well as powerful good people. all powerful indicates there is no limit. saying he can only do good is a limit.

to say that he could not act evil is to say he is not all powerful. it is giving him less agency than a human toddler, who can act evil without even knowing what they are doing. bulldogs can do evil by killing a baby. baby kittens can do evil by killing a chipmunk. a God that can't do evil is not as powerful as a baby kitten. it is a very weak God.

Is He necessarily a being or entity that must be all powerful by definition?

God transcends forms, being the source of all forms. he cannot be contained. he is not a corporeal entity. so no i'd say he isn't necessarily a Being. i would say he has personal qualities to him, mercy, joy, hatred, etc. all the things we see in us. this is in the Book of Genesis as well, he "made us in his image". we can be evil, so can he. we can be good, so can he.

 

[Afro Republican]

God is all powerful. He created humans. He has the ability to create humans that don't do bad things, or to create a world where bad things do not occur, or compel humans to not do bad things, just like he hardened Pharaoh's heart (but in a good way).

He is the cause of all things and bad things happen, so He must have caused them. That would give Him some responsibility in the matter.

This isn't an argument.

If the ol' Serpent caused Eve to sin due to her moving away to commit an evil act what caused her to commit the act?

This is what you're saying, and I honestly believe you aren't comprehending how dumb your logic is:

You are leaving a door unlocked real quick as you go get your paint can to spruce up a store, which your car is feet away from the door you left unlocked. Unpredictably, a robber came and is able to escape the cops that made it to the scene only because the door was unlocked, and he shot two of the cops from the door.

Who caused the murders and the escape? using your faulty logic, you did.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Well now you're just hurting your stance completely by bringing up Wikipedia and dismissing my post.

No, you are arguing in bad faith. I provided some reference material, please feel free to go read it.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

This isn't an argument.

If the ol' Serpent caused Eve to sin due to her moving away to commit an evil act what caused her to commit the act?

This is what you're saying, and I honestly believe you aren't comprehending how dumb your logic is:

You are leaving a door unlocked real quick as you go get your paint can to spruce up a store, which your car is feet away from the door you left unlocked. Unpredictably, a robber came and is able to escape the cops that made it to the scene only because the door was unlocked, and he shot two of the cops from the door.

Who caused the murders and the escape? using your faulty logic, you did.

the definition of God is the ultimate authority. he is the source of everything, he is the cause of everything. authority takes responsibility. thus as the ultimate authority, all responsibility goes to him. he created all of it. he created the serpent who did that. the serpent is a symbol of knowledge. thus he leads them to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

indeed there is personal responsibility, it is a big part of that story, is it Adam's fault for eating the apple? or Eve's for offering it? or the Serpent for tempting? they are all red herrings. it was God all along!

 

[Afro Republican]

No, you are arguing in bad faith. I provided some reference material, please feel free to go read it.

No that's what you're doing while also trying to deflect.

My point still stands, the top atheists debaters int he country don't use your shitty argument because it's illogical by default. You are applying your definitions of words that may not have applied even 20 years ago, while also accusing god of causing something that was directly caused by something else.

Read the example I made in the post above about the robbers.

 

[Afro Republican]

the definition of God is the ultimate authority. he is the source of everything, he is the cause of everything. authority takes responsibility.

That seems to be mans definition. Which is a contradiction as certain beliefs of man in the past had the opposite definition.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

No that's what you're doing while also trying to deflect.

My point still stands, the top atheists debaters int he country don't use your shitty argument because it's illogical by default. You are applying your definitions of words that may not have applied even 20 years ago, while also accusing god of causing something that was directly caused by something else.

Read the example I made in the post above about the robbers.

How is the argument illogical?

1. If an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god exists, then evil does not.
2. There is evil in the world.
3. Therefore, an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god does not exist.

And the modern version of it

1. God exists.
2. God is omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient.
3. An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
4. An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
5. An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence, and knows every way in which those evils could be prevented.
6. A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7. If there exists an omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient God, then no evil exists.
8. Evil exists (logical contradiction).

That is essentially atheism 101.

You are leaving a door unlocked real quick as you go get your paint can to spruce up a store, which your car is feet away from the door you left unlocked. Unpredictably, a robber came and is able to escape the cops that made it to the scene only because the door was unlocked, and he shot two of the cops from the door.

Who caused the murders and the escape? using your faulty logic, you did.

I couldn't have caused it, since I am not omnipotent or omniscient. Were I, I could have stopped it. Therefore, I am not God.

 

[EverydayBeast]

I have never seen God as a villain.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

There's a lot wrong with your reply, but this snippet in particular, what are you talking about? How do you have free will?

Because I can do both good and evil.

 

[O-N-E]

Great fucking non-answer.

See you later. Can't hang around here, getting nowhere.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

where are you getting this? i understand it is your opinion but do you have any scriptural references where it says "God cannot allow evil because he is perfect?" it seems to be a limitation you a bringing in from somewhere.

God grants his children, Adam and Eve, the gift of Free Will, right in the Book of Genesis. it is part of what makes us human, our curiosity, our want for knowledge, even if it will lead to bad things. God is allowing us to do evil right there from the start.*

Spoiler: esoteric reading of The Fall

the main occult traditions find inspiration from here, the Kabbala, the Tree of Life, it is directly related to the Tree that produces the fruit of knowledge of Good and Evil. occult legends say that after Adam ate of the fruit and was cast out, God sent the angel Raziel to deliver his prize, that knowledge of Creation, how to create from nothing, the powers of a god, magic, etc.

why do you think he cannot or must not do evil?

FWIW im not making light, im asking genuine questions. the question of evil is huge in philosophy and theology, all this has been discussed ad nausea for more than a thousand years at this point.

I actually offered up some scripture in an earlier post.

But, since I don't feel like digging though a bible to pull 10,000 different quotes, here you go.

What Does the Bible Say About Omnibenevolence?

Bible verses about Omnibenevolence

www.openbible.info

What Does the Bible Say About Omniscience?

Bible verses about Omniscience

www.openbible.info

What Does the Bible Say About Omnipotence?

Bible verses about Omnipotence

www.openbible.info

 

[BigBooper]

God is not portrayed as omnibenevolent in the bible. I'm not sure where that idea is coming from. He even specifically apologizes once or twice in the Bible. Other times, he changes his mind, which implies that the first time he was wrong or it didn't work.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Great fucking non-answer.

See you later. Can't hang around here, getting nowhere.

if god is omniscient, you don't have free will, because he already know what will happen. If he is omnipotent and can affect what happens to you to give you guidance, then you are just a slave following loose orders and lack free will.

 

[GobbledeeGoo]

if god is omniscient, you don't have free will, because he already know what will happen. If he is omnipotent and can affect what happens to you to give you guidance, then you are just a slave following loose orders and lack free will.

If there are infinite alternate realities, every possible outcome, as incredibly crazy as one might seem, has/will happen. Therefore free will doesn't exist. Free will doesn't exist anyways. True free will doesn't exist no matter what. We are always responding to something from the second we are born and then it's just a back and forth ping pong game of intaking and responding. The whole notion of free will is illogical in the same sense of a Utopia.